Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers

Mazhar

And in your salaat article the verb 'establish' magically changes to 'perform' and you have the gall to tell me "I am slipping aimlessly on the entire floor"

it is clear you have no intention to engage in a meaningful debate.

In a separate post, I will summarize my earlier posts in this thread later.

peace.

Standing in humble posture, kneeling and prostrating is the protocol; and a protocol is performed. I dont know what hampers you to grasp simple things.

Perform accomplish something to carry out an action or accomplish a task, especially one requiring care or skill

Will you please take the trouble of consulting Lane

and he performed the divinely-appointed act termed or .

hawk99

Peace Family,

Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.

God bless

peace

Mazhar

Peace Family,

Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.

God bless

peace

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00015.%20Mustaqeem%20Qaf%20Waw%20Meem%20Straight/15.gif This Imperative; second person; plural; masculine verb is made from Verbal Noun. It is from Root " ". This Root, verbs and words made from it are used in relation to throughout the Grand Qur'aan

...

This fact alone suffices to portray that http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gif is a physical protocol. The basic perception infolded in the Root Root " " and Verbal Noun is of standing; straight position on feet as distinct from sitting, reclining or lying; or walking. In physical terms it is the most stable, established state of strength, alertness and equilibrium which other postures of sitting, reclining and lying flat lack. This state grants an ability to quickly react and respond to a sudden threat/attack.

Balance and equilibrium strengths a thing and grants stability, prominence and durability. Balance and equilibrium also create a stationary state. This Root thus also conveys the meaning of staying somewhere. And the point of staying becomes a place of gathering. Balance and equilibrium yields state of peace and tranquility. In whatever shade the words derived from this Root are used the; perception of balance and equilibrium, which is the primary condition of standing erect, shall remain predominant/prevail.

The point is fully elaborated in this part

It is Gesture-speech, highest communicative dynamism Sublime submission of servitude and allegiance;

wildguest1956

You may wish to have a look at my post about the social purpose of rituals.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597335.msg182758#msg182758

It may help linking the ritualistic aspect of the salat with its non ritualistic aspect.

Bender

This fact alone suffices to portray that http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00024.%20Salat%20Suad%20Lam%20Waw/25.gif is a physical protocol. The basic perception infolded in the Root Root " " and Verbal Noun is of standing; straight position on feet as distinct from sitting, reclining or lying; or walking. In physical terms it is the most stable, established state of strength, alertness and equilibrium which other postures of sitting, reclining and lying flat lack. This state grants an ability to quickly react and respond to a sudden threat/attack.

Salaamun alayka,

So If I understood you correctly Aqimu AlSalata means "Stand Praying"/ "pray in standing position".
Thus you do not bow and kneel in your prayer, am I correct?

salaam,
Bender

Mazhar

Salaamun alayka,

So If I understood you correctly Aqimu AlSalata means "Stand Praying"/ "pray in standing position".
Thus you do not bow and kneel in your prayer, am I correct?

salaam,
Bender

Salama

Read the article.

Novice

And in your salaat article the verb 'establish' magically changes to 'perform' and you have the gall to tell me "I am slipping aimlessly on the entire floor"

it is clear you have no intention to engage in a meaningful debate. )

In a separate post, I will summarize my earlier posts in this thread later.

peace.

Salam god1quran1

Does the command in the following ayat 4213 "Aqeem ud deen" throw light on the verb "Aqeem" with reference to the discussion in this thread.

god1quran1

Salam god1quran1

Does the command in the following ayat 4213 "Aqeem ud deen" throw light on the verb "Aqeem" with reference to the discussion in this thread.

Peace Novice.

Sure why not. The possible meanings here could be

Establish the deen and do not be divided.
Remain steadfast in deen and do not be divided.

What would not make any sense is

Perform the deen and do not be divided.

What I am trying to argue in this thread is that assuming there is a disagreement over the meaning of a noun, can we look at the meaning of the action verbs associated with the noun to find clues concerning its meaning.

So the exercise for the intellectually honest student of the Quran would be to make a list of verses where Salaat is mentioned along with the action verb. Then without any bias look at the meaning of each verb and see if the verse would make sense if Salaat is hypothesized to be some kind of a ritual.

As an example, in verse 1187 I have a hard time believing Salaat could be a 5 times-a-day ritual based on the action verb, for the verse does not make much sense.

When aqimus is translated as 'to establish' , I am not convinced that establishing salaat equates to praying 5 times a day as this verb can also be used with ideas. Examples would be establishing frameworks, laws, system etc.

aqimus can also mean 'to remain steadfast' which points to Salaat having a more wider meaning than just being reduced to a physical exercise.

In traditional muslim circles, notice the verbs that are used with Salaat to force it to become a ritual

Lets 'perform' salaat
Lets 'read' namaaz (salaat)

When asked where have these verbs been used in the Quran alongside Salaat, they have no answer! )

god1quran1

Peace Family,

Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.

God bless

peace

Peace Hawk99,

Lets be clear and honest

What Bro Mazhar is saying in this thread is that those who do not follow his version of ritualistic salaat are not believers and will end up in hell.

To back up his claims he is introducing verbs that have no Quranic existence. Even a novice would know aqimus does not mean "to perform"

By a sleight of hand he has turned the noun Salaat into a ritual by manipulating the meaning of the verb.

I have asked him more than a few times how 'to establish' becomes 'to perform' in his article, but so far I have not received a satisfactory response. (

god1quran1

Will you please take the trouble of consulting Lane

and he performed the divinely-appointed act termed or .

And can you kindly take the trouble of consulting the Quran and show me where the verb 'to perform' is used alongside Salaat?

I have asked you this question now about 4 times and I keep getting an indirect answer. (

Aqimus does not mean 'to perform'. Establish is NOT a synonym of Perform. Kindly STOP using verbs that have NO Quranic existence to fit your belief system.

Peace

Mazhar

And can you kindly take the trouble of consulting the Quran and show me where the verb 'to perform' is used alongside Salaat?

I have asked you this question now about 4 times and I keep getting an indirect answer. (

Aqimus does not mean 'to perform'. Establish is NOT a synonym of Perform. Kindly STOP using verbs that have NO Quranic existence to fit your belief system.

Peace

Peace,

You have not given a thought even for a second to reflect about the difference in words of the languages that relate to substance and accident.

Anything that is performed has a performer; every act has a doer; and they are called in English Active Participles and in Arabic the doer of an act.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/107.%20Al%20Maoon/107.4.gif

As-Salat is thereby a protocol which is performed and its performer-doer-active participle is called

hawk99

Peace Hawk99,

What Bro Mazhar is saying in this thread is that those who do not follow his version of ritualistic salaat are not believers and will end up in hell. )

Peace god1quran,

If you would go back to reply #149 you will see that I disagree with the title of the thread.

God bless

Mazhar

Peace god1quran,

If you would go back to reply #149 you will see that I disagree with the title of the thread.

God bless

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif

Certain identified people are declared as proven, true believers.

One quality is

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.3PP.gif

Thereby, if it is not the characteristic feature of someone, can you treat him as truly the believer disregarding the verdict of Allah the Exalted?

hawk99

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif

Certain identified people are declared as proven, true believers.

One quality is

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.3PP.gif

Thereby, if it is not the characteristic feature of someone, can you treat him as truly the believer disregarding the verdict of Allah the Exalted?

Agreed

Peace Mazhar,

I do not disagree with you as to what a believer is, what I disagree with is that someone
who has not attain the status of momin is kufr I would consider some people Muslim
according to ayat 49/14-15 not believers but not non-believers (rejecters, deniers).

Your feedback would be appreciated.

God bless

peace

Novice

Peace Novice.

Sure why not. The possible meanings here could be

Establish the deen and do not be divided.
Remain steadfast in deen and do not be divided.

What would not make any sense is

Perform the deen and do not be divided.

What I am trying to argue in this thread is that assuming there is a disagreement over the meaning of a noun, can we look at the meaning of the action verbs associated with the noun to find clues concerning its meaning.

So the exercise for the intellectually honest student of the Quran would be to make a list of verses where Salaat is mentioned along with the action verb. Then without any bias look at the meaning of each verb and see if the verse would make sense if Salaat is hypothesized to be some kind of a ritual.

As an example, in verse 1187 I have a hard time believing Salaat could be a 5 times-a-day ritual based on the action verb, for the verse does not make much sense.

When aqimus is translated as 'to establish' , I am not convinced that establishing salaat equates to praying 5 times a day as this verb can also be used with ideas. Examples would be establishing frameworks, laws, system etc.

aqimus can also mean 'to remain steadfast' which points to Salaat having a more wider meaning than just being reduced to a physical exercise.

In traditional muslim circles, notice the verbs that are used with Salaat to force it to become a ritual

Lets 'perform' salaat
Lets 'read' namaaz (salaat)

When asked where have these verbs been used in the Quran alongside Salaat, they have no answer! )

Thanks Brother. That is exactly what I got from this ayat.
The 5 time ritual becomes invalid at the places like the polar regions or say in space. The fatwa given that follow the timings of the nearest settlements is non-Quranic and again it is not applicable in space. So my understanding at this stage is that meaning of "aqeem-ussalat" must be different than the prevalent ones.
handshake

Mazhar

Agreed

Peace Mazhar,

I do not disagree with you as to what a believer is, what I disagree with is that someone
who has not attain the status of momin is kufr I would consider some people Muslim
according to ayat 49/14-15 not believers but not non-believers (rejecters, deniers).

Your feedback would be appreciated.

God bless

peace

Momin and Kaafir relates to thought process relayed verbally or through gesture. You invite somebody to belief, he turns and moves away without saying no to you. It shows he has refused to believe in the word you are asking him to believe.
He without compulsion and coercion accepts your word, he claims he has become belieber. What is the testing instrument with you to know or gauge the truthfullness of his claim? He is either truly a believer or is not a true believer. You cannot call him a Kaafir.

Allah defines by narrating the characteristic features and the actions performed by a claimant of a belief as to who is a true believer.

Actions are subsequent to one's belief and are the indicators for others to accept him as a true believer. As-Salat is one of the indicators.

hawk99

Momin and Kaafir relates to thought process relayed verbally or through gesture. You invite somebody to belief, he turns and moves away without saying no to you. It shows he has refused to believe in the word you are asking him to believe.
He without compulsion and coercion accepts your word, he claims he has become belieber. What is the testing instrument with you to know or gauge the truthfullness of his claim? He is either truly a believer or is not a true believer. You cannot call him a Kaafir.

Allah defines by narrating the characteristic features and the actions performed by a claimant of a belief as to who is a true believer.

Actions are subsequent to one's belief and are the indicators for others to accept him as a true believer. As-Salat is one of the indicators.

Peace Mazhar,

Thank you for your explanation, I agree with #2.

God bless

hafeez_kazi

Peace all

This is for all those who believe, that the AQIMUS (and its derivatives) SALAT, in whole Quran means PERFORMING OF THE RITUAL SALAT and believe that AATUS (and its derivatives) ZAKAT, in the whole Quran means GIVING CHARITY

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT then LEAVE their WAY FREE Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 95

But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. 911

Why is Allah so much interested in the DISBELIEVER'S performing of the SALAT and giving of ZAKAT and why Allah has put these two COMMANDS as a condition for LEAVING THEIR WAY FREE?

Why Allah did not mention ? IF THEY REPENT, BELIEVE, PRAY, GIVE ZAKAT, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ, then leave their way free?

Why Allah did not mention ? IF THEY REPENT, BELIEVE, PRAY, GIVE ZAKAT, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ, then they are your brethren in your
DEEN

Did Allah forgot to include BELIEVE, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ in His command to let them go free or to make them your brethren in your DEEN?

How do the DISBELIEVERS by just PERFORMING THE SALAT AND GIVING OF ZAKAT tend to become BRETHREN of the BELIEVERS in the DEEN without BELIEVING?

Should the disbelievers, PERFORM THE PRAYER and GIVE ZAKAT only ONCE or THROUGHOUT their life, to let them go FREE?

If it is only ONCE then the command of Allah is USELESS and if it is for LIFETIME then it means that Allah is forcing His will on the disbelievers and such command can never be expected from Allah.

O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.7170

No COMMAND to BELIEVE, then why the COMMAND to PERFORM the SALAT and give ZAKAT for letting them FREE?

Should the BELIEVERS wait till the month of RAMADHAN to LET THEM GO FREE because only then the DISBELIEVRS will be able to give ZAKAT?

To whom should the DISBELIEVERS give ZAKAT, to their own BRETHREN or the BELIEVERS?

Since HADITH was not there and the percentage of ZAKAT and to whom it should be given and when to be given is not MENTIONED in the QURAN, in this situation the DISBELIEVERS should give ZAKAT to Whom? When? HOW much?

The DSBELIEVERS might have asked the PROPHET to produce the verses pertaining to ZAKAT because Allah commanded them to give ZAKAT? In the absence of such verses in the QURAN, did the PROPHET present them his SUNNAH?

Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your Allah is one Allah, therefore follow the right way to Him and ask His forgiveness; and WOE TO THE POLYTHEIST WHO DO NOT GIVE ZAKAT; and they in the Hereafter, are disbelievers 417/8

If the polytheists GIVE ZAKAT (without BELIEVEING in ALLAH) then there is NO WOE to them?

Why should the DISBELIVERS perform the PRAYERS and give ZAKAT when they do not believe in Allah, His Messengers, His Books, and the Judgment day?

There is no COMPULSION in DEEN. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower 2256

If there is no COMPULSION, then why COMPULSION for the DISBELIEVERS to PERFORM the PRAYERS and to give ZAKAT, which are the parts of the DEEN?

Think about it and ponder over the word REPENT and that will lead you to understand the correct meaning of SALAT and ZAKAT in the above 2 verses

Thanks

GODsubmitter