Non performers of As-Salaat are not true believers
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Peace Family,
Even though Bro Mazhar's English is cumbersome, I think he makes a good point that
Standing during salat is a physical act, if I understand him correctly. Therefore I conclude
that the positions that follow i.e., bowing and prostrating are also physical. Therefore salat
is a ritual which is not to be confused with rote.God bless
peace
Peace Hawk99,
Lets be clear and honest
What Bro Mazhar is saying in this thread is that those who do not follow his version of ritualistic salaat are not believers and will end up in hell.
To back up his claims he is introducing verbs that have no Quranic existence. Even a novice would know aqimus does not mean "to perform"
By a sleight of hand he has turned the noun Salaat into a ritual by manipulating the meaning of the verb.
I have asked him more than a few times how 'to establish' becomes 'to perform' in his article, but so far I have not received a satisfactory response. (
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Will you please take the trouble of consulting Lane
and he performed the divinely-appointed act termed or .
And can you kindly take the trouble of consulting the Quran and show me where the verb 'to perform' is used alongside Salaat?
I have asked you this question now about 4 times and I keep getting an indirect answer. (
Aqimus does not mean 'to perform'. Establish is NOT a synonym of Perform. Kindly STOP using verbs that have NO Quranic existence to fit your belief system.
Peace
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And can you kindly take the trouble of consulting the Quran and show me where the verb 'to perform' is used alongside Salaat?
I have asked you this question now about 4 times and I keep getting an indirect answer. (
Aqimus does not mean 'to perform'. Establish is NOT a synonym of Perform. Kindly STOP using verbs that have NO Quranic existence to fit your belief system.
Peace
Peace,
You have not given a thought even for a second to reflect about the difference in words of the languages that relate to substance and accident.
Anything that is performed has a performer; every act has a doer; and they are called in English Active Participles and in Arabic the doer of an act.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/107.%20Al%20Maoon/107.4.gif
As-Salat is thereby a protocol which is performed and its performer-doer-active participle is called
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Peace Hawk99,
What Bro Mazhar is saying in this thread is that those who do not follow his version of ritualistic salaat are not believers and will end up in hell. )
Peace god1quran,
If you would go back to reply #149 you will see that I disagree with the title of the thread.
God bless
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Peace god1quran,
If you would go back to reply #149 you will see that I disagree with the title of the thread.
God bless
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif
Certain identified people are declared as proven, true believers.
One quality is
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.3PP.gif
Thereby, if it is not the characteristic feature of someone, can you treat him as truly the believer disregarding the verdict of Allah the Exalted?
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/Temp%2001%208.04.gif
Certain identified people are declared as proven, true believers.
One quality is
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.3PP.gif
Thereby, if it is not the characteristic feature of someone, can you treat him as truly the believer disregarding the verdict of Allah the Exalted?
Agreed
Peace Mazhar,
I do not disagree with you as to what a believer is, what I disagree with is that someone
who has not attain the status of momin is kufr I would consider some people Muslim
according to ayat 49/14-15 not believers but not non-believers (rejecters, deniers).Your feedback would be appreciated.
God bless
peace
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Peace Novice.
Sure why not. The possible meanings here could be
- Establish the deen and do not be divided.
- Remain steadfast in deen and do not be divided.
What would not make any sense is
Perform the deen and do not be divided.
What I am trying to argue in this thread is that assuming there is a disagreement over the meaning of a noun, can we look at the meaning of the action verbs associated with the noun to find clues concerning its meaning.
So the exercise for the intellectually honest student of the Quran would be to make a list of verses where Salaat is mentioned along with the action verb. Then without any bias look at the meaning of each verb and see if the verse would make sense if Salaat is hypothesized to be some kind of a ritual.
As an example, in verse 1187 I have a hard time believing Salaat could be a 5 times-a-day ritual based on the action verb, for the verse does not make much sense.
When aqimus is translated as 'to establish' , I am not convinced that establishing salaat equates to praying 5 times a day as this verb can also be used with ideas. Examples would be establishing frameworks, laws, system etc.
aqimus can also mean 'to remain steadfast' which points to Salaat having a more wider meaning than just being reduced to a physical exercise.
In traditional muslim circles, notice the verbs that are used with Salaat to force it to become a ritual
- Lets 'perform' salaat
- Lets 'read' namaaz (salaat)
When asked where have these verbs been used in the Quran alongside Salaat, they have no answer! )
Thanks Brother. That is exactly what I got from this ayat.
The 5 time ritual becomes invalid at the places like the polar regions or say in space. The fatwa given that follow the timings of the nearest settlements is non-Quranic and again it is not applicable in space. So my understanding at this stage is that meaning of "aqeem-ussalat" must be different than the prevalent ones.
handshake -
Agreed
Peace Mazhar,
I do not disagree with you as to what a believer is, what I disagree with is that someone
who has not attain the status of momin is kufr I would consider some people Muslim
according to ayat 49/14-15 not believers but not non-believers (rejecters, deniers).Your feedback would be appreciated.
God bless
peace
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Momin and Kaafir relates to thought process relayed verbally or through gesture. You invite somebody to belief, he turns and moves away without saying no to you. It shows he has refused to believe in the word you are asking him to believe.
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He without compulsion and coercion accepts your word, he claims he has become belieber. What is the testing instrument with you to know or gauge the truthfullness of his claim? He is either truly a believer or is not a true believer. You cannot call him a Kaafir.
Allah defines by narrating the characteristic features and the actions performed by a claimant of a belief as to who is a true believer.
Actions are subsequent to one's belief and are the indicators for others to accept him as a true believer. As-Salat is one of the indicators.
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Momin and Kaafir relates to thought process relayed verbally or through gesture. You invite somebody to belief, he turns and moves away without saying no to you. It shows he has refused to believe in the word you are asking him to believe.
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He without compulsion and coercion accepts your word, he claims he has become belieber. What is the testing instrument with you to know or gauge the truthfullness of his claim? He is either truly a believer or is not a true believer. You cannot call him a Kaafir.
Allah defines by narrating the characteristic features and the actions performed by a claimant of a belief as to who is a true believer.
Actions are subsequent to one's belief and are the indicators for others to accept him as a true believer. As-Salat is one of the indicators.
Peace Mazhar,
Thank you for your explanation, I agree with #2.
God bless
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Peace all
This is for all those who believe, that the AQIMUS (and its derivatives) SALAT, in whole Quran means PERFORMING OF THE RITUAL SALAT and believe that AATUS (and its derivatives) ZAKAT, in the whole Quran means GIVING CHARITY
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT then LEAVE their WAY FREE Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 95
But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. 911
Why is Allah so much interested in the DISBELIEVER'S performing of the SALAT and giving of ZAKAT and why Allah has put these two COMMANDS as a condition for LEAVING THEIR WAY FREE?
Why Allah did not mention ? IF THEY REPENT, BELIEVE, PRAY, GIVE ZAKAT, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ, then leave their way free?
Why Allah did not mention ? IF THEY REPENT, BELIEVE, PRAY, GIVE ZAKAT, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ, then they are your brethren in your
DEENDid Allah forgot to include BELIEVE, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ in His command to let them go free or to make them your brethren in your DEEN?
How do the DISBELIEVERS by just PERFORMING THE SALAT AND GIVING OF ZAKAT tend to become BRETHREN of the BELIEVERS in the DEEN without BELIEVING?
Should the disbelievers, PERFORM THE PRAYER and GIVE ZAKAT only ONCE or THROUGHOUT their life, to let them go FREE?
If it is only ONCE then the command of Allah is USELESS and if it is for LIFETIME then it means that Allah is forcing His will on the disbelievers and such command can never be expected from Allah.
O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.7170
No COMMAND to BELIEVE, then why the COMMAND to PERFORM the SALAT and give ZAKAT for letting them FREE?
Should the BELIEVERS wait till the month of RAMADHAN to LET THEM GO FREE because only then the DISBELIEVRS will be able to give ZAKAT?
To whom should the DISBELIEVERS give ZAKAT, to their own BRETHREN or the BELIEVERS?
Since HADITH was not there and the percentage of ZAKAT and to whom it should be given and when to be given is not MENTIONED in the QURAN, in this situation the DISBELIEVERS should give ZAKAT to Whom? When? HOW much?
The DSBELIEVERS might have asked the PROPHET to produce the verses pertaining to ZAKAT because Allah commanded them to give ZAKAT? In the absence of such verses in the QURAN, did the PROPHET present them his SUNNAH?
Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your Allah is one Allah, therefore follow the right way to Him and ask His forgiveness; and WOE TO THE POLYTHEIST WHO DO NOT GIVE ZAKAT; and they in the Hereafter, are disbelievers 417/8
If the polytheists GIVE ZAKAT (without BELIEVEING in ALLAH) then there is NO WOE to them?
Why should the DISBELIVERS perform the PRAYERS and give ZAKAT when they do not believe in Allah, His Messengers, His Books, and the Judgment day?
There is no COMPULSION in DEEN. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower 2256
If there is no COMPULSION, then why COMPULSION for the DISBELIEVERS to PERFORM the PRAYERS and to give ZAKAT, which are the parts of the DEEN?
Think about it and ponder over the word REPENT and that will lead you to understand the correct meaning of SALAT and ZAKAT in the above 2 verses
Thanks
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Peace all
This is for all those who believe, that the AQIMUS (and its derivatives) SALAT, in whole Quran means PERFORMING OF THE RITUAL SALAT and believe that AATUS (and its derivatives) ZAKAT, in the whole Quran means GIVING CHARITY
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT then LEAVE their WAY FREE Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 95
But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. 911
Why is Allah so much interested in the DISBELIEVER'S performing of the SALAT and giving of ZAKAT and why Allah has put these two COMMANDS as a condition for LEAVING THEIR WAY FREE?
Why Allah did not mention ? IF THEY REPENT, BELIEVE, PRAY, GIVE ZAKAT, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ, then leave their way free?
Why Allah did not mention ? IF THEY REPENT, BELIEVE, PRAY, GIVE ZAKAT, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ, then they are your brethren in your
DEENDid Allah forgot to include BELIEVE, FAST, PERFORM HAJJ in His command to let them go free or to make them your brethren in your DEEN?
How do the DISBELIEVERS by just PERFORMING THE SALAT AND GIVING OF ZAKAT tend to become BRETHREN of the BELIEVERS in the DEEN without BELIEVING?
Should the disbelievers, PERFORM THE PRAYER and GIVE ZAKAT only ONCE or THROUGHOUT their life, to let them go FREE?
If it is only ONCE then the command of Allah is USELESS and if it is for LIFETIME then it means that Allah is forcing His will on the disbelievers and such command can never be expected from Allah.
O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.7170
No COMMAND to BELIEVE, then why the COMMAND to PERFORM the SALAT and give ZAKAT for letting them FREE?
Should the BELIEVERS wait till the month of RAMADHAN to LET THEM GO FREE because only then the DISBELIEVRS will be able to give ZAKAT?
To whom should the DISBELIEVERS give ZAKAT, to their own BRETHREN or the BELIEVERS?
Since HADITH was not there and the percentage of ZAKAT and to whom it should be given and when to be given is not MENTIONED in the QURAN, in this situation the DISBELIEVERS should give ZAKAT to Whom? When? HOW much?
The DSBELIEVERS might have asked the PROPHET to produce the verses pertaining to ZAKAT because Allah commanded them to give ZAKAT? In the absence of such verses in the QURAN, did the PROPHET present them his SUNNAH?
Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your Allah is one Allah, therefore follow the right way to Him and ask His forgiveness; and WOE TO THE POLYTHEIST WHO DO NOT GIVE ZAKAT; and they in the Hereafter, are disbelievers 417/8
If the polytheists GIVE ZAKAT (without BELIEVEING in ALLAH) then there is NO WOE to them?
Why should the DISBELIVERS perform the PRAYERS and give ZAKAT when they do not believe in Allah, His Messengers, His Books, and the Judgment day?
There is no COMPULSION in DEEN. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower 2256
If there is no COMPULSION, then why COMPULSION for the DISBELIEVERS to PERFORM the PRAYERS and to give ZAKAT, which are the parts of the DEEN?
Think about it and ponder over the word REPENT and that will lead you to understand the correct meaning of SALAT and ZAKAT in the above 2 verses
Thanks
Very interesting!
and very important!Thank you
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Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT then LEAVE their WAY FREE Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 95
But if they REPENT and PERFORM THE (FIVE TIMES) RITUAL PRAYER (AS THE BELIEVERS DO) and GIVE (2.5%) ZAKAT, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. 911
Salam Alaikum.
These two verses (95 and 911) are denoting conversion, i.e, if the idolaters repent and convert to the deen of Islam, then they should be forgiven. That's why in 911 it says that they would become our "brethren in religion". And the verses mention salat and zakat beacuse these are two of the most important duties in the deen of Islam.
As for the argument that why didn't God use the words 'believe', it's because the verses primarily denote conversion, hence no need to use the word 'believe' as it becomes clear what God is trying to say.
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peace,
These two verses (95 and 911) are denoting conversion, i.e, if the idolaters repent and convert to the deen of Islam, then they should be forgiven. That's why in 911 it says that they would become our "brethren in religion". And the verses mention salat and zakat beacuse these are two of the most important duties in the deen of Islam.
As for the argument that why didn't God use the words 'believe', it's because the verses primarily denote conversion, hence no need to use the word 'believe' as it becomes clear what God is trying to say.
The above is commonly claimed, but proves to be weak once the verses are analysed, see detail here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm -
Brother Mazhar,
Please correct me if my understanding is wrong in my previous post regarding 95 and 911.
salaam,
Is Mazhar the one who validates an understanding?
I think you will find more wisdom in the post above from brother hafeez kazi, then you will find in the whole website of Mazhar, but that is just my humble opinion.
salaam,
Bender -
peace,
The above is commonly claimed, but proves to be weak once the verses are analysed, see detail here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htmsalaam,
Is Mazhar the one who validates an understanding?
I think you will find more wisdom in the post above from brother hafeez kazi, then you will find in the whole website of Mazhar, but that is just my humble opinion.
salaam,
BenderDear brother Wakas and Bender,
Thanks for your input.
I would like to see your comments in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605815.0
Peace.
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Peace Wakas,
It seems missed your attention
Please rebut if these five timings are not mentioned in Qur'aan specifically with As-Salat?
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpgPlease remember http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/01.Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20003/34.%20Tarfan%20Toi%20Ra%20Fa/2.gif is dual signifiying two; its Noon is dropped being in construct.
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Peace,
You have not given a thought even for a second to reflect about the difference in words of the languages that relate to substance and accident.
Anything that is performed has a performer; every act has a doer; and they are called in English Active Participles and in Arabic the doer of an act.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/107.%20Al%20Maoon/107.4.gif
As-Salat is thereby a protocol which is performed and its performer-doer-active participle is called
Peace Mazhar,
Thank you for the lesson in grammar. Lets simplify it now.
Definition
The active participle (AP) is a morphological form derived from a verb to refer to the person or animate being that performs the action denoted by the verb.Examples from adhan we get muezzin, from salam, we get Muslim etc.
hence in equivalent english examples would be
The performer performs
The eater eats
The announcer announces
The submitter submits
The believer believesEach performer performs an action according to meaning of the verb and active participle defines role of the actor
Now, in contrast to the definition above, what you are implying is
The eater performs
The announcer performs
The submitter performs
The believer performs
The Musalleen performwhich will cause the casual reader to assign any meaning to the active participle as he/she sees fit. Do you now see the problem in the article you have written?
What I am asking you is to focus on the verb from which Mussaleen has been derived? What is the meaning of the verb which would help us to determine the meaning of the active participle? This will help to clue us in on the meaning of the noun 'Salaat'
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What this ponderence has revealed to you the meanings of SALAT and ZAKAT?
That you choose to ask a question about his views on Salaat and Zakat rather than provide a rebuttal leads me to believe that there are gaps in your knowledge that require further research on your part. You did the same when I asked you about Shuaib's Salat instead of providing a clear argument of how Shuaib's 5 prayers a day can irritate the elite of Madyan people.
As a consequence, the inflammatory title of this thread becomes moot and should not to be taken too seriously. )
