Worship Allah and not the Quran

Nazzam

It comes from your book, Ummayad supporters yuck

Lets state it comes from 'my book', how come u as a shia hold on to that historiography?

As for your reaction, I have nothing to do with Ummayad supporters.

You do. Even more than you think. Your whole shia doctrine is defined by interaction with the ahl al-hadith, and it wasn't chrystallized until well into the 18th century.

How about that?

Nazzam

You did not answer my question, is the Prophet (sawa) infallible?

He was fallible, as the quran clearly states over and over again.

And your imams were fallible too.

muslims

It is wrong to believe that 'nor is there to Him any equivalent', is capable of defining God. It is correct as a statement.

Salam,

So.. what is Allah?

Peace.

Nazzam

No human is infallible.

Worship Qur'an?

Please go back to English school and learn what the word worship means.

Where in the Qur'an does it say there are humans that are infallible?

Our sect never existed throughout history?
Do you know a Sunni imam named Al Shafi? He debated and opposed people who only took and believed Qur'an alone as God's guidance.

Your Shia folks glorify Ali, Hussein, Muawiya, Fatima. It is enough to call it is a form of idol-worship.

You are wasting your time on people like him

Shia sources also talk about the quran-only methodology, like the Tabaqat of Yahya ibn al Murtada.

Nazzam

Salam,

So.. what is Allah?

Peace.

We don't know.

We can only philosophize about the creation, and induce that according to our comprehension of nature, it points out to the necessity of nature to be the result of the existence of God.

Before I moderated the text, I said 'God must exist', which is wrong. God isn't bound to any necessity.

God is and God is not, are identical truths (provided that no dogma follows the equation), but God is even 'elevated' above this statement.

Which makes 'atheism' impossible.

muslims

Asalamualaikum sword of tashayyu,

You are not answering the question, making false assumptions on others and keep diverting from one issue into the others.

First you ask..

what is your view of the Quran is it eternal word of Allah or is it Makhluq (created being)?

This is a really weird question.
Everyone here knows that the Qur'an is a hadith.
It is the speech of Muhammad
It is Muhammad's words, and the message of Allah

Arabic is not the actual language of Allah (cf. Bible, Torah etc.)
There is no way it can be the actual words of Allah or a Makhluq.
Muhammad is not a "Creator"
and no one knows the nature of the revelations (whether it is in words etc)

Therefore, there is no issue that the Arabic Qur'an is the eternal word of Allah or a Makhluq.
It is merely a guidance in the language of Quraish tribes.
Human language!
Simple!

For this reason, I asked you

Since when Arabic is the actual language of Allah?

What is your answer?

Firstly i did not mention that Arabic was the language of Allah All-Mighty

So you agree that it is created. Talking about our school, the school of Ahlul Bayt, your sect did not exist at ALL throughout history.. rotfl

Unless you imply that you are mutazillite. The Mutazili scholars also relied on ahadith from the Sunni (ie we call 'amma) sources.

Next question, do you believe that our Master Mustafa (sawa) is infallible?

And on another note to give divinity to a created book is shirk and you worship the Quran

I don't know what is so funny about my question.

and we can see that you provide no answer, and instead
You are making personal assumptions on my behalf
Claiming things I have never said
and diverting from the real issue

Maybe you don't understand the issue
Therefore, I make clear the issue so that you may understand our discussion.

All things are created but it is ridiculous to assume that Muhammad can create "makhluq" through his speech (the Qur'an).

What is your reply?

You did not answer my question, is the Prophet (sawa) infallible?

You divert from the issue and making another set of question.

Are you capable of understanding the issue and point of our discussion?

Peace.

muslims

We don't know.

Salam,

Exactly! (read here, Why Allah is not God?)

To claim Allah is "God" means to set in our mind that there is God in Islam, God in Christianity, God in Hinduism, God in Buddhism... and Allah is one of those Gods, the only one true God.

Is this Shirk?

Nor is there to Him any equivalent <- including the concept of "God", it is not equivalent!
(1124)

Further, the Qur'an is a book about us and other living creatures.

It is about the Deen of Islam and fulfillment of our duty.

Quite simply, it is a book all about us, discussing our creation, purpose, history, spirituality, psyche, life's big questions, justice, governance etc. It is a guide on how to realise our potential, individually and collectively, if one chooses to seek this path; http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htm

(The objective of Allah's command in its context is related to the importance of successorship. So as the Qur'an, where almost the whole content is about humanity and other living creatures on earth; ie. successorship. The Qur'an is not about Allah, but it is about His creations.)

Peace.

Nazzam

Salam,

Exactly! (read here, Why Allah is not God?)

To claim Allah is "God" means to set in our mind that there is God in Islam, God in Christian, God in Hinduism, God in Buddhism... and Allah is one of those Gods, the only one true God. Is this Shirk?

Further, the Qur'an is a book about us and other living creatures.

It is about the Deen of Islam and fulfillment of our duty.

Peace.

Allah is only a reference to 'God', but so is the word 'God'.

The truth of the matter, is that in fact we can not say anything, not even utter the concept, cause even that would become subject to our own limitations.

Stating (I dont believe in claiming) that 'Allah is God', is confusing and fallacious. Is it fallacious to confuse, or is it confusing because its fallacious?

To ease it up for the sake of problem solving, this statement is acceptable only if we are aware of its deficiency.

It is meant to confirm that the concept of 'Allah' is held apart from 'God' by people, and at the same time state that this is wrong cause they are the same.

Its a statement which doesnt mean anything, until you 'define' what you mean by God or Allah. While this is possible, defining God 'Himself' is impossible.

Defining what you mean, is creating a concept, which is deficient in advance. Keeping this serious shortcoming in mind, it is easy to differentiate between concepts.

You can say there is one God, and that the concept which approaches this statement the most, is the one presented by the quran.

After that, it is safe to state that all the other concepts are invalid at some or all points (define points).

If one concept overlaps with the other, it doesnt mean that there are more gods, but simply that either the origin is one, or the logical construction behind the concept is similar. It doesnt say anything about 'God'.

The 'deen' (u left this word untranslated conciously didnt you?) of islam is not what its about. Its about God.

Islam (submission) is merely a logical consequence of our consciousness of the necessity of nature to the existence of God, so is the 'duty' you refer to.

muslims

Its a statement which doesnt mean anything, until you 'define' what you mean by God or Allah. While this is possible, defining God 'Himself' is impossible.

Salam,

What is Allah?

Say, "He is Allah , One,
(1121)

So wherever you turn
there is the face of Allah
(2115)

Can we understand the above explanation?

Nope! Unthinkable and unimaginable. Therefore, the reference of Allah as God in the Qur'an are subjected to the interpretation of Sura al-Ikhlas. The sura that defines what is Allah.

Its reference is only for human beings who are only able to derive the understanding of Allah from the concept of God (claim of ownership etc). It is the process, but not the destination or true meanings of Allah. As equal to the issue of whether a deen is a religion, Allah is not God, among other gods.

(read here, Why Allah is not God?)

Peace brother. peace

La Illah Ila Allah
There is no god, there is only Allah.

Nazzam

Salam,

What is Allah?

Say, "He is Allah , One,
(1121)

So wherever you turn
there is the face of Allah
(2115)

Can we understand the above explanation?

Nope! Unthinkable and unimaginable. Therefore, the reference of Allah as God in the Qur'an are subjected to the interpretation of Sura al-Ikhlas. The sura that defines what is Allah.

Its reference is only for human beings who are only able to derive the understanding of Allah from the concept of God (claim of ownership etc). It is the process, but not the destination or true meanings of Allah. As equal to the issue of whether a deen is a religion, Allah is not God, among other gods.

Peace brother. peace

We can understand these verses to a certain extent, far enough to dismiss concepts which contradict these verses. They are verses, they are not 'God'.

What we can not do, is comprehend God.

Peace yay

ps I completely reject Ahmet Hulusi's conclusions about 'Allah'.

hawk99

Peace Muslims,

You have a basic problem, and that is you defy or misunderstand language.

Language

a body of words and the systems for their use common to a people who are
of the same community or nation.
a particular communication system shared by a people of written symbols
spoken words and movements.

In English Allah = God

In English Deen = religion

You have created your very own language barrier!

God bless

peace

muslims

Peace Muslims,

You have a basic problem, and that is you defy or misunderstand language.

Language

a body of words and the systems for their use common to a people who are
of the same community or nation.
a particular communication system shared by a people of written symbols
spoken words and movements.

In English Allah = God

In English Deen = religion

You have created your very own language barrier!

God bless

peace

Peace hawk99,

You are right, according to your understanding.

It is the process, but not the destination or true meanings of Allah.

Peace brother.

muslims

What we can not do, is comprehend God.

Salam Nazzam,

Agreed, including the "word God" and all meaning associated with it. handshake

Its reference is only for human beings who are only able to derive the understanding of Allah from the concept of God (claim of ownership etc).

Peace brother.

Nazzam

Peace hawk99,

You are right, according to your understanding.

Peace brother.

A process can have a 'fixed terminology', based on the rules of grammar, human psychology and such, transforming only gradually (and very slowly) through time to cope with our development.

You can try to direct the process (create your own vocabulary), but it will not stick or it will fail because the process is larger than the individual and outlives a human life. You can try to change it by force by political means (language revolution or reform), but that has been proven to bring more bad than good.

You can not just dismiss what hawk said by using the relativistic words 'according to your understanding', you should focus on what he is arguing and give an answer.

Peace )

muslims

You can not just dismiss what hawk said by using the relativistic words 'according to your understanding', you should focus on what he is arguing and give an answer.

Salam,

I did, but I believe he choose to rely on dogma and fallacy, instead of the actual word of Allah. There is no compulsion for him to accept my argument.

In English Deen = religion

Salam hawk99,

Is this your argument? )

"Madhab" is religion.
"Deen" is not "Madhab".
Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English.

Why?

Peace peace

hawk99

Peace hawk99,

You are right, according to your understanding.

Peace brother.

Not only my understanding, but by the folks who speak and understand English, who
you are trying but failing to communicate with in this forum, don't be so brickwall

= chair = two different languages, still a chair

= rug = two different languages, still a rug

Salam hawk99,

Is this your argument?

"Madhab" is religion.
"Deen" is not "Madhab".
Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English.

No that was not my argument, those are your words not mine. nope

God bless

peace

muslims

Salam Nazzam

Similarly..

Human beings understood Allah as God, among other gods.
Surah 112 said Allah is not equivalent to "God" (One... Nor is there to Him any equivalent)
Therefore, Allah is God. (among gods?)

Can you see what's wrong with your conclusion?

Peace

muslims

No that was not my argument, those are your words not mine. nope

Salam

Please refer to the dictionary and root words for "Deen" and "Madhab".

So that you can see your conclusion is not corroborated with the actual premise for religion and deen.

Therefore, it is false conclusion (no. 3; ie. your conclusion).. a dogma.

Peace brother.

muslims

Peace.

Not only my understanding, but by the folks who speak and understand English, who you are trying but failing to communicate with in this forum, don't be so brickwall

those are your words not mine. nope

Do you know which is the premise and the conclusion (argument)?

Don't confuse the "premise" with the "argument" (conclusion, no.3).

http//z5.ifrm.com/30336/15/0/f5229388/argument.png

"Madhab" is religion. <- Premise 1
"Deen" is not "Madhab". <- Premise 2

Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English. <- Your argument, conclusion
Human beings understood Allah as God, among other gods. <- Premise 1
Surah 112 said Allah is not equivalent to "God(s)" <- Premise 2
(One... Nor is there to Him any equivalent)

Therefore, Allah is God. (among gods?) <- Nazzam's argument, conclusion

hawk99

Salam,

If I have no other choice and need to choose at least one sect in order to free myself from all other sects, the least is to be identified as Muslim Atheism, since to be called as just a "Muslim" is very misleading and competitive. confused

Peace.

Sects are condemned by God, don't pick one.

You say "Muslim atheism is a theological position in which the belief in religion
is rejected or absent but the teachings of the Quran are followed; My Definition

Having your own language can create unnecessary misunderstandings and confusion
that is my point.

You say,

"Madhab" is religion. <- Premise 1
"Deen" is not "Madhab". <- Premise 2

Therefore, Deen is religion (Madhab) in English. <- Your argument, conclusion

Again not my words, those are your words not mine. nope

Not only are you making up your own definitions, you also ascribe conclusions to me!
I'm a big boy I can speak for myself! I don't need you to draw conclusions for me!

God bless

peace