What is Islam?

[muslims]

Salam

One cannot segment the Quran into various multiple categories; it is not completed in a single verse but with a close correlation of 6000 and odd verses. It is condemned by Allah. And again there is no contradiction between its verses.

1590. Like as We sent down on the dividers

1591. Those who made the Quran into shreds.

1592. So, by your Lord, We would most certainly question them all,

1593. As to what they did.

And do you think long answers not to be read or cannot read? Definitely it is not longer than most of your posts, i believe.

Peace.

Salam

It is long since it does not answer the question or issue. The issue is quite simple, where does it say in sura 391-92 that we need to sacrifice or spend or give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah, and I have given the reason why we don't need to ramble to the meaning of the whole Qur'an without first identifying its true and relevant premises to our discussion.

Each and every premises have to be right before we are able to make the whole conclusion of the Qur'an. Therefore, it is irrelevant to assume the meaning of the whole Qur'an based on one or two ayats/premises. Fallacy of Generalization.)

If you cannot or have failed to show me in the ayat, can you at least show me in the whole sura of Ali-Imran? ie. A clear ayat that say we need to sacrifice or spend or give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah, and despite they are fair, just and good to other peoples (ie. Allah's command on the basis of sectarianism - religion, and not on the basis of justly balanced). An ayat that prove Allah is not talking about love of wealth and gold in sura 391-92. A clear ayat that are directly relating to explanation in ayat 391-92.

Or can you contradict or deny the following ayat?

Whereas the Qur'an says Allah will help the non-believers.

Permission to fight is given
to those against whom war is made <- not referring to Muslim, rights given to all human beings
because they have been wronged <- religion vs. just and balance
and Allah indeed has the power to help them <- Allah will help the non-believers
(2230)

Why the above ayat is contradicting your argument and belief? Belief in the sacrificing of the innocent non-believers based on their religion; ie. sectarianism

Peace.

p/s even the revelation of the Qur'an is given step by step ... progressively.. hmm

[drfazl]

Salam

Very long answer. So the question is where does it say spending/giving "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah in (391-92) ?

(Each and every premises have to be right before we are able to make the whole conclusion of the Qur'an. Therefore, it is irrelevant to assume the meaning of the whole Qur'an based on one or two ayats/premises. Fallacy of Generalization.)

Peace

Alright then, you need to know the meaning of spending. How do you spend your life? What is the meaning of the word 'spend' here? What is the extent and dimension of the premise of spending here? I have to spend all my life in the cause of Allah. What is the meaning of spending here? If I have to spend my life free from the precincts and nearness of the rejecters of the signs of Allah - what does the word spend denote here? If the enemies are our parents, wives, brothers, children and relatives how would you spend your life in the cause of righteousness? What is the meaning of the word 'spend' here? If there are full of enemies around you in your country you have to go in exile and spend your life until things become favourable.

Now you can apply your wisdom transcending knowledge and elevate yourself from the lowly dictionary meanings to know the Quran. You can from this approach read again 391 & 92.

p/s Further, I couldn't agree with your argument since there are in the Qur'an to be fair and good to the non believers, notwithstanding their religions. The true meanings of a Muslim and believers, and the actual contexts have been distorted by the Arabs to suit the agenda of sectarianism and Islam as a religion.

From the above example of the word spend you would know it is impossible to know the true meanings of the words of Quranic ayats using human invented dictionaries and grammar. True meanings are above your linguistic knowledge and for the same reason except Allah none can reveal the essential understanding of any ayat in its completeness.

and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers
those who say, "We are Christians." <- Allah confirmed that they are good peoples
That is because among them are priests and monks
and because they are not arrogant
(582)

If you are asked to spend your life with such or give your life for the sake of such people, what do you understand of the word spend/give?

This also includes the context of the ayat you are quoting above. For example, how you are misquoting and distorted the true meanings of the ayat by generalizing the ayat that relating to "takes them for a guardian", jihad (self defense), and during the emigration of Muslim as generally making all the non-believers as an enemy and sacrifice them in the way of Allah (923); ie. sectarianism.

Whereas the Qur'an says Allah will help the non-believers.

Permission to fight is given
to those against whom war is made <- not referring to Muslim, rights given to all human beings
because they have been wronged <- religion vs. just and balance
and Allah indeed has the power to help them <- Allah will help the non-believers
(2230)

We leave this issue for a while and settled our first issue.

How do you take the observation , " only Allah knows the true meanings of His ayats?" Would you say, 'yes?' Therefore all your Arabic language and lexicons would be fruitless to tread the path of righteousness. The proof of righteousness of your interpretation lies only in your living out that which you interpret.

[drfazl]

Salam

It is long since it does not answer the question or issue. The issue is quite simple, where does it say in sura 391-92 that we need to sacrifice or spend or give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah, and I have given the reason why we don't need to ramble to the meaning of the whole Qur'an without first identifying its true and relevant premises to our discussion.

This is why you must have completeness of understanding from Allah. Pray for not associating dictionaries to Allah's revelation. Come above the human dictionaries by submitting to Allah expecting From Him for revelations. Do you believe in direct revelation from Allah?

If you cannot or have failed to show me in the ayat, can you at least show me in the whole sura of Ali-Imran? ie. A clear ayat that say we need to sacrifice or spend or give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah, and despite they are fair, just and good to other peoples (ie. Allah's command on the basis of sectarianism - religion, and not on the basis of justly balanced). An ayat that prove Allah is not talking about love of wealth and gold in sura 391-92. A clear ayat that are directly relating to explanation in ayat 391-92.

I think by now it would be clear to you as to how to be in total surrendering before Allah that it is Him and He alone by revelation can make us step upon the right path. Not man made dictionaries and grammatical dictionaries.

p/s even the revelation of the Qur'an is given step by step ... progressively.. hmm

Very true. You shall turn to Allah for revelation of every single ayat as and when it is sent down and such revelation would easily be enlivened because of the truth in it. And Allah guides us in His path. It is because people have turned to human Arabic linguistic abilities, none is able to practice any single ayat of Quran even after it is completed without shirk.

12106. And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others with Him.

Peace.

[Man_of_Faith]

Salaam,

The ones that are blessed by God with Knowledge and Wisdom can accurately interpret the ayats of God. The rest will just put then to conjecture.

God bless you

[muslims]

Alright then, you need to know the meaning of spending. How do you spend your life? What is the meaning of the word 'spend' here? What is the extent and dimension of the premise of spending here? I have to spend all my life in the cause of Allah. What is the meaning of spending here? If I have to spend my life free from the precincts and nearness of the rejecters of the signs of Allah - what does the word spend denote here? If the enemies are our parents, wives, brothers, children and relatives how would you spend your life in the cause of righteousness? What is the meaning of the word 'spend' here? If there are full of enemies around you in your country you have to go in exile and spend your life until things become favourable.

Now you can apply your wisdom transcending knowledge and elevate yourself from the lowly dictionary meanings to know the Quran. You can from this approach read again 391 & 92.

Salam

So this is how you interprets 391 & 92?

This is how you interpret the word "spend" in 391 & 92? hmm

Well.. I have nothing to say on your methodology and despite repeated request for a direct authority to support our main issue, you are rambling and with a long-winded inconsequential irrelevant explanation, lack of focus, generalize the issue, and still cannot point out how 391 & 92 can be interpreted as to give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah. Neither can you support your conclusion from Sura ali-Imran, other than making a conclusion based on what you "personally feel" is the right things to say; ie. a decision made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason.

You have also misquote the words of Allah and distorted its true meaning to support your conclusion (refer here).

Some of your argument are simply illogical (refer here and here)

The final consequences of your methodology is "sectarianism", a religion. (refer here); discriminating people and "parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" for becoming a non-believers, and not for what is just or unjust.

Your conclusion is inconsistent and contradicting the Qur'an (refer here), and especially Surah 37, 5101 and 3030 (refer here).

My argument remains as follows

There is nothing in the whole ayat that support your argument or explain or related to "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives". The relevance ayat to explain 91 and 92 are as follows

And among the People of the Scripture is he who
if you entrust him with a great amount
he will return it to you
And among them is he who
if you entrust him with a silver coin
he will not return it to you
unless you are constantly standing over him
That is because they say
"There is no blame upon us concerning the unlearned"
And they speak untruth about Allah while they know
(375)
http//www.limerickac.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Arrow-Down-Small.png
Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their oaths
for a small price
will have no share in the Hereafter
and Allah will not speak to them
or look at them on the Day of Resurrection
nor will He purify them
and they will have a painful punishment
(377)
http//www.limerickac.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Arrow-Down-Small.png
Indeed, those who disbelieve and die
while they are disbelievers
never would
the capacity of the earth in gold
be accepted from one of them
if he would ransom himself with it
For those there will be a painful punishment
and they will have no helpers.
(391)
http//www.limerickac.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Arrow-Down-Small.png
Never will you attain the good
until you spend
from that which you love
And whatever you spend
indeed, Allah is Knowing of it
(392)

As you can see, there is nothing in the whole ayats that explain or related to giving "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah. The words "great amount ", "a silver coin", "for a small price", "the capacity of the earth in gold", "ransom", "spend", and "love" (of wealth) are the ayats that directly support the meaning of (391). It is explaining or something related to the "love of wealth", and not about scarifying or giving "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah. I believe you are making the conclusion based on what you believe and desire, not based on what the context of the ayats are explaining

Peace peace

p.s discussion starts from here

[muslims]

This is why you must have completeness of understanding from Allah. Pray for not associating dictionaries to Allah's revelation. Come above the human dictionaries by submitting to Allah expecting From Him for revelations. Do you believe in direct revelation from Allah?

I think by now it would be clear to you as to how to be in total surrendering before Allah that it is Him and He alone by revelation can make us step upon the right path. Not man made dictionaries and grammatical dictionaries.

Red is mine

Salam..

The above sounds very weird, and terrifying... (comparison > refer here) nope

Further comparison

No! Indeed, the record of the wicked is in sijjeen.
And what can make you know what is sijjeen?
(837-8)

No! Indeed, the record of the righteous is in 'illiyyun.
And what can make you know what is 'illiyyun?
(8318-19)

So leave Me, with whoever denies the Qur'an
We will progressively lead them from where they do not know
And I will give them time
Indeed, My plan is firm
(6844-45)

From the above statement and relating to direct revelation from Allah, I guess it is hard to say Allah plan is firm since many here on earth are very close and receiving direct revelation from Allah. They might also knew what is in the 'illiyyun and sijjeen.. not many prophets have acquired this privilege..

mmm.. people are stressful, maybe because of the ozone depletion and climate change. sun

Does each one of them want to receive the scripture personally?

What is with you?
How do you judge?
Or do you have a scripture in which you learn
That indeed for you is whatever you choose? <- refer here and here
(6836-38)

Peace peace

[drfazl]

Salam

So this is how you interprets 391 & 92?

This is how you interpret the word "spend" in 391 & 92? hmm

Well.. I have nothing to say on your methodology and despite repeated request for a direct authority to support our main issue, you are rambling and with a long-winded inconsequential irrelevant explanation, lack of focus, generalize the issue, and still cannot point out how 391 & 92 can be interpreted as to give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah. Neither can you support your conclusion from Sura ali-Imran, other than making a conclusion based on what you "personally feel" is the right things to say; ie. a decision made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason.

There is no methodology here but common sense and use of criterion.

you are rambling and with a long-winded, inconsequential, irrelevant explanation, lack of focus,

If you can remove such inconsistencies in your feel, and observe the content of post with patience you will get to know much better from it, for it is keeping sensibilities still intact and remain in our discerning abilities.

You have also misquote the words of Allah and distorted its true meaning to support your conclusion (refer here).

If you are truthful tell me who knows true meaning of an ayat with respect to absolute guidance for one, who seeks it to become free of his difficulties, from any single ayat of Quran.

To know the meaning of the above sentence you shall know the meanings of Truth/ mean/ ayat/ absolute/ guidance/ seek/ become free/ difficulty/ Quran etc. You have to spread out the thesaurus on your study table and choose your meaning of choice for every word used above depending upon the mood and situation each one is.

Now with this understand in mind you look into, 392 By no means shall you attain Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, etc., it means here Allah's Reward, i.e. Paradise), unless you spend (in Allah's Cause) of that which you love; and whatever of good you spend, Allah knows it well.

The verse has following words piety/ righteousness/ reward/ paradise/ spend/ love/ good/ Allah. Let us take one word of it and see how diversely we can assess and access to, say piety
Piety devout ness/ dutifulness/ godliness.
Devout reverent feelings/exercises; heartfelt/dear/sincere
Dear Highly valued;/ greatly beloved/ cherished/ precious
Beloved loving relationship/ sacrificial love.

For the word piety I take the meaning as loving relations and sacrificial love involving my household parents, children, brothers, wife, relations far and near, if I find them blocking my way in the path of Allah and if they force me to deny and belie Allah and His guidance. I give up my relationship with them and spend my life with love sacrificed for the sake of paradise. It is not that as you incorrectly maintain, I am giving my said relations or spend relations which carries no meaning at all.

The ayats of Allah 924., 5822 surely endorses such take of mine. What is your take?

Peace

[Wiselite]

Peace DrFazl,

This ayat comes to my mind and confirms to me what you have written above

283
And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel saying "Worship none but Allah; and do good to parents, to relatives, orphans, and the needy; and speak to people good words; be steadfast in prayer; and practice regular charity. Then you turned back except a few of you and now too you turn aside.

All praise to The Teacher, The Guide - Allah alone.

gita.

[muslims]

Salam drfazl

Firstly,

When you come to know the truth any of your family members denies Allah and rejects the faiths stands between you and Allah and in His path of righteousness you shall sever them off. It is very important sacrifice you make severing all relationships with such kind of people, however closely related they might be. Examples being Prophet Ibrahim's father; prophet Lut's wife; prophet Nuh's wife and son to mention directly from Quran.

For the word piety I take the meaning as loving relations and sacrificial love involving my household parents, children, brothers, wife, relations far and near, if I find them blocking my way in the path of Allah and if they force me to deny and belie Allah and His guidance. I give up my relationship with them and spend my life with love sacrificed for the sake of paradise. It is not that as you incorrectly maintain, I am giving my said relations or spend relations which carries no meaning at all.

Sorry, wrong guessing and your belief are inconsistent with the Qur'an. Your ideology is the same ideology of Sunni and Shiah religions, promoting hate, wars and hatred in the humanity and family institutions. Whereas the Qur'an clearly states....

And We have enjoined upon man
for his parents
His mother carried him
in weakness upon weakness
and his weaning is in two years
Be grateful to Me and to your parents <- be grateful to your parents (refer here)
to Me is the destination.
But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me
that of which you have no knowledge
do not obey them
but accompany them in (this) world <- stay and don't give up your relationship with them
with appropriate kindness <- be kind as of a child to his parent (refer here), not make enemy
and follow the way of those who turn back to Me
Then to Me will be your return
and I will inform you about what you used to do
(3114-15)

Secondly,

The ayats of Allah 924., 5822 surely endorses such take of mine. What is your take?

Again, sorry.. you are misquoting the words of Allah and distorted its true meaning to support your conclusion. All the ayats you are referring to is relates to the circumstances during the Jihad (war) and Muslim being extremely oppressed. The same right is given to the non-believers, and Allah will help the non-believers if they are oppressed by the Muslim (refer here).

The ones who have believed <- Situation of extreme oppression;
emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah <- eg. 285, 2191, 2217, 2191, 2246
with their wealth
and their lives
are greater in rank in the sight of Allah
And it is those who are the attainers
Their Lord gives them good tidings of mercy from Him
and approval
and of gardens for them wherein is enduring pleasure
abiding therein forever
Indeed, Allah has with Him a great reward
O you who have believed
do not take your fathers
or your brothers as allies
if they have preferred disbelief over belief
And whoever does so among you
then it is those who are the wrongdoers
Say, "If your fathers <- the ayat you are relying for your argument
your sons
your brothers
your wives
your relatives
wealth which you have obtained
commerce wherein you fear decline
and dwellings with which you are pleased
are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger
and jihad in His cause
then wait until Allah executes His command
And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people"
Allah has already given you victory in many regions <- wars
and on the day of Hunayn
when your great number pleased you<- wars
but it did not avail you at all
and the earth was confining for you with its vastness
then you turned back, fleeing
Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger
and upon the believers
and sent down soldiers angels <- wars
whom you did not see
and punished those who disbelieved
And that is the recompense of the disbelievers
Then Allah will accept repentance
after that for whom He wills
and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful
(920-27)

They took their oaths as a cover <- the jews and the munafiqoon making allies
so they averted from the way of Allah
and for them is a humiliating punishment
Never will their wealth or their children
avail them against Allah at all
Those are the companions of the Fire
they will abide therein eternally
On the Day Allah will resurrect them all
and they will swear to Him
as they swear to you
and think that they are on something
Unquestionably, it is they who are the liars
Satan has overcome them
and made them forget the remembrance of Allah
Those are the party of Satan
Unquestionably, the party of Satan
they will be the losers
Indeed, the ones who oppose Allah and His Messenger <- during oppression and wars
those will be among the most humbled
Allah has written, "I will surely overcome, I and My messengers" <- during oppression and wars
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might
You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day <- the ayat you are relying for your argument
having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger
even if they were their fathers
or their sons
or their brothers
or their kindred
Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith
and supported them with spirit from Him
And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow
wherein they abide eternally
Allah is pleased with them
and they are pleased with Him
those are the party of Allah
Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful
(5816-22)

p/s Further, I couldn't agree with your argument since there are in the Qur'an to be fair and good to the non believers, notwithstanding their religions. The true meanings of a Muslim and believers, and the actual contexts have been distorted by the Arabs to suit the agenda of sectarianism and Islam as a religion.

and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers
those who say, "We are Christians." <- Allah confirmed that they are good peoples
That is because among them are priests and monks
and because they are not arrogant
(582)

This also includes the context of the ayat you are quoting above. For example, how you are misquoting and distorted the true meanings of the ayat by generalizing the ayat that relating to "takes them for a guardian", jihad (self defense), and during the emigration of Muslim as generally making all the non-believers as an enemy and sacrifice them in the way of Allah (923); ie. sectarianism.

Whereas the Qur'an says Allah will help the non-believers.

Permission to fight is given
to those against whom war is made <- not referring to Muslim, rights given to all human beings
because they have been wronged <- religion vs. just and balance
and Allah indeed has the power to help them <- Allah will help the non-believers
(2230)

Why are you repeatedly and keep on distorting the words of Allah?

Why do you hate the non-believers based on sectarianism?

Because of wars? Revenge? Economy and Poverty?

Thirdly,

To know the meaning of the above sentence you shall know the meanings of Truth/ mean/ ayat/ absolute/ guidance/ seek/ become free/ difficulty/ Quran etc. You have to spread out the thesaurus on your study table and choose your meaning of choice for every word used above depending upon the mood and situation each one is.

Now with this understand in mind you look into, 392 By no means shall you attain Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, etc., it means here Allah's Reward, i.e. Paradise), unless you spend (in Allah's Cause) of that which you love; and whatever of good you spend, Allah knows it well.

The verse has following words piety/ righteousness/ reward/ paradise/ spend/ love/ good/ Allah. Let us take one word of it and see how diversely we can assess and access to, say piety
Piety devout ness/ dutifulness/ godliness.
Devout reverent feelings/exercises; heartfelt/dear/sincere
Dear Highly valued;/ greatly beloved/ cherished/ precious
Beloved loving relationship/ sacrificial love.

You are still rambling. Ignoring the context of the ayat and make an argument from what is pleasing for you to imagine; rather than according to evidence or reason. Wishful Thinking.

So this is how you interprets 391 & 92?

This is how you interpret the word "spend" in 391 & 92? hmm

Well.. I have nothing to say on your methodology and despite repeated request for a direct authority to support our main issue, you are rambling and with a long-winded inconsequential irrelevant explanation, lack of focus, generalize the issue, and still cannot point out how 391 & 92 can be interpreted as to give "our parents, children, brothers, wives, relatives" in the way of Allah. Neither can you support your conclusion from Sura ali-Imran, other than making a conclusion based on what you "personally feel" is the right things to say; ie. a decision made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason.

My argument remains as follows

(refer above)

Peace peace

p.s discussion starts from here

[muslims]

cont.

and some comparisons on the pattern of arguments..

To know the meaning of the above sentence you shall know the meanings of Truth/ mean/ ayat/ absolute/ guidance/ seek/ become free/ difficulty/ Quran etc. You have to spread out the thesaurus on your study table and choose your meaning of choice for every word used above depending upon the mood and situation each one is.

The Islamic clergy expends great energy trying to account for these inconsistencies and contradictions. Their answers to your common-sense observations may involve various choices of words, yet the thrust can broadly be summarised thus in order to understand the Hadith you have to be very learned. There seem to be contradictions in the Hadith to you because you are not learned. They ? the clergy ? are learned. Therefore, they do not see contradictions. When you are learned like them you, too, will not see contradictions. Until you are as learned as they you cannot contend with them on this (or any) subject. The fact that you fail to perceive any of this only testifies to your own ignorance; A Study of the Qur'an

Whereas the Qur'an says...

It is He who has sent down to you the Book

in it are verses precise
they are the foundation of the Book

and others unspecific

As for those in whose hearts is deviation
they will follow that of it which is unspecific
seeking discord and seeking an interpretation

And no one knows its interpretation except Allah

But those firm in knowledge say
"We believe in it. All is from our Lord."
And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
(37)

refer also 5101 and 267-71

inconsistently...

Accordingly, if Quran is a guidance to each individual from the beginning to the end of the world; and from birth to the death of each person, the context of any ayat is closely connected to each one's individualistic, and constantly changing situation of his life at any point of time; and his grade and degree of life he is living, from the heavens down to the earth.

How do you take the observation , " only Allah knows the true meanings of His ayats?" Would you say, 'yes?' Therefore all your Arabic language and lexicons would be fruitless to tread the path of righteousness. The proof of righteousness of your interpretation lies only in your living out that which you interpret.

Quranic context is your individual situation at any point in your lifetime. Every ayat and every word of the same ayat has 8 billion contexts if presently there is 8 billion population. And the situations in each person change by the moment and accordingly the meanings of the same ayat changes and the guidance would be perfect in the Name of Allah, the only Guide, at that moment of time if only one looks up to Him Alone without committing association.

logically...

I hope we don't have 8 billion gods, with 8 billion contexts of the Qur'an... &

There is a difference between "the context of the ayat" (Qur'anic context - words of Allah) and "what you may understood by it" (your context - your philosophy). This is what happened in the past, where the ulama are imposing their own context to the Qur'an, as it is the Qur'an (claiming absolute truth). Therefore, I believe your methodology or concept of interpretation that "the context of any ayat is closely connected to each one's individualistic" are contradicting the following ayats. It will cause deviation and division in the society since many peoples have many different interpretations of the Qur'an, according to their own desires (4523)(2543).

So direct your face toward the deen, inclining to truth
the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created people
No change should there be in the creation of Allah (deen)
That is the correct deen
but most of the people do not know
(3030)

O you who have believed
DO NOT ask about things which
if they are shown to you
will distress you
But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed
they will be shown to you
Allah has pardoned that which is past
and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing
(5101)

And indeed, there is among them a party
who alter the Scripture
with their tongues
so you may think it is from the Scripture
but it is not from the Scripture
And they say, "This is from Allah ,"
but it is not from Allah
And they speak untruth about Allah while they know
(378)

Peace peace

[drfazl]

Salam drfazl

Firstly,

Sorry, wrong guessing and your belief are inconsistent with the Qur'an. Your ideology is the same ideology of Sunni and Shiah religions, promoting hate, wars and hatred in the humanity and family institutions. Whereas the Qur'an clearly states....

"Wrong-guessing", "inconsistent with Quran" how sure are you that you self assume as you are the author of Quran itself. And how sincerely obedient are you in your highly deplorable statement 'I promote hatred amongst families and wars against nations; and further I belong to the sectarians like Sunni and Shias, which sectarianism Allah disapproves of?' Please restrain from saying what you do not know for such actions will reduce one's discerning capabilities, which could be the worst loss one could suffer in this life. Seek forgiveness.

And We have enjoined upon man
for his parents
His mother carried him
in weakness upon weakness
and his weaning is in two years
Be grateful to Me and to your parents
to Me is the destination.

But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me
that of which you have no knowledge
do not obey
but accompany them in world<- stay and don't give up your relationship with them
with appropriate kindness <- be kind as of a child to his parent (refer here), not make enemy
and follow the way of those who turn back to Me
Then to Me will be your return
and I will inform you about what you used to do
(3114-15)

I bring to notice the bold red word 'endeavour' which means extreme pressure on you to set up partners to Allah to the extent of even terrorising you to death. This happened to Ibrahim. If you read the prophet's history in sura al Maryam, 46 - 49 He, the father said "Do you reject my gods, O Ibrahim? If you stop not this, I will indeed stone you. So get away from me safely before I punish you." ....So, when Ibrahim had given them up, and that which they were worshipping beside Allah, We gave him Isaac and Jacob. Each of them We made a prophet.

And now follow it up with Allah's admonition in 2130. And who turns away from the righteousness of Ibrahim except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

What is your take on such course of Ibrahim? According to you Ibrahim promoted hatred amongst families and wars against nations! Why are you rejecting Allah's verses simply because His verses are against your esteemed view on life and matters?

Peace.

[drfazl]

Salam drfazl

Firstly,

Sorry, wrong guessing and your belief are inconsistent with the Qur'an. Your ideology is the same ideology of Sunni and Shiah religions, promoting hate, wars and hatred in the humanity and family institutions. Whereas the Qur'an clearly states....

And We have enjoined upon man
for his parents
His mother carried him
in weakness upon weakness
and his weaning is in two years
Be grateful to Me and to your parents <- be grateful to your parents (refer here)
to Me is the destination.
But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me
that of which you have no knowledge
do not obey them
but accompany them in (this) world <- stay and don't give up your relationship with them
with appropriate kindness <- be kind as of a child to his parent (refer here), not make enemy
and follow the way of those who turn back to Me
Then to Me will be your return
and I will inform you about what you used to do
(3114-15)

Secondly,

Again, sorry.. you are misquoting the words of Allah and distorted its true meaning to support your conclusion. All the ayats you are referring to is relates to the circumstances during the Jihad (war) and Muslim being extremely oppressed. The same right is given to the non-believers, and Allah will help the non-believers if they are oppressed by the Muslim (refer here).

The ones who have believed <- Situation of extreme oppression;
emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah <- eg. 285, 2191, 2217, 2191, 2246
with their wealth
and their lives
are greater in rank in the sight of Allah
And it is those who are the attainers
Their Lord gives them good tidings of mercy from Him
and approval
and of gardens for them wherein is enduring pleasure
abiding therein forever
Indeed, Allah has with Him a great reward
O you who have believed
do not take your fathers
or your brothers as allies
if they have preferred disbelief over belief
And whoever does so among you
then it is those who are the wrongdoers
Say, "If your fathers <- the ayat you are relying for your argument
your sons
your brothers
your wives
your relatives
wealth which you have obtained
commerce wherein you fear decline
and dwellings with which you are pleased
are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger
and jihad in His cause
then wait until Allah executes His command
And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people"
Allah has already given you victory in many regions <- wars
and on the day of Hunayn
when your great number pleased you<- wars
but it did not avail you at all
and the earth was confining for you with its vastness
then you turned back, fleeing
Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger
and upon the believers
and sent down soldiers angels <- wars
whom you did not see
and punished those who disbelieved
And that is the recompense of the disbelievers
Then Allah will accept repentance
after that for whom He wills
and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful
(920-27)

They took their oaths as a cover <- the jews and the munafiqoon making allies
so they averted from the way of Allah
and for them is a humiliating punishment
Never will their wealth or their children
avail them against Allah at all
Those are the companions of the Fire
they will abide therein eternally
On the Day Allah will resurrect them all
and they will swear to Him
as they swear to you
and think that they are on something
Unquestionably, it is they who are the liars
Satan has overcome them
and made them forget the remembrance of Allah
Those are the party of Satan
Unquestionably, the party of Satan
they will be the losers
Indeed, the ones who oppose Allah and His Messenger <- during oppression and wars
those will be among the most humbled
Allah has written, "I will surely overcome, I and My messengers" <- during oppression and wars
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might
You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day <- the ayat you are relying for your argument
having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger
even if they were their fathers
or their sons
or their brothers
or their kindred
Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith
and supported them with spirit from Him
And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow
wherein they abide eternally
Allah is pleased with them
and they are pleased with Him
those are the party of Allah
Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful
(5816-22)

Why are you repeatedly and keep on distorting the words of Allah?

Why do you hate the non-believers based on sectarianism?

Because of wars? Revenge? Economy and Poverty?

Brother, can you try remove all your red insinuations into the ayats and make clean readings of the ayat? Please try it. I think without injecting into the ayat you cannot make a posting which if you do should be a readable material. Please remove them all and re-write.

Thirdly,

You are still rambling. Ignoring the context of the ayat and make an argument from what is pleasing for you to imagine; rather than according to evidence or reason. Wishful Thinking.

Come to subject instead of writing things out of context to this forum, leave alone context to Quran.

Peace

[muslims]

I bring to notice the bold red word 'endeavour' which means extreme pressure on you to set up partners to Allah to the extent of even terrorising you to death.

Salam

Okay, I can see you have nothing else to complaint off, raising another irrelevant issues.

But if they endeavor to make you associate with Me
that of which you have no knowledge
do not obey them
but accompany them in (this) world <- stay and don't give up your relationship with them
with appropriate kindness <- be kind as of a child to his parent (refer here), not make enemy

(3114-15)

Further, your argument relating to endeavor is now supporting my argument that Muslims should not give up and keep their duty to the non-believers (parents), and since Allah continues by saying "but accompany them in (this) world with appropriate kindness". The best part is that you have extended further my arguments; ie......

Muslims should accompany their non-believers parents and treats them with appropriate kindness (duty of a son to his parents) despite "extreme pressure on you to set up partners to Allah to the extent of even terrorising you to death" (ie. your new argument).

extreme pressure on you to set up partners to Allah to the extent of even terrorising you to death.

Comparison with your old argument...

I take the meaning as loving relations and sacrificial love involving my household parents, children, brothers, wife, relations far and near, if I find them blocking my way in the path of Allah and if they force me to deny and belie Allah and His guidance. I give up my relationship with them and spend my life with love sacrificed for the sake of paradise. It is not that as you incorrectly maintain, I am giving my said relations or spend relations which carries no meaning at all.

Why you are getting confused with your own arguments? hmm

You are making an argument without understanding what you really believe?

Peace peace

[drfazl]

The Islamic clergy expends great energy trying to account for these inconsistencies and contradictions. Their answers to your common-sense observations may involve various choices of words, yet the thrust can broadly be summarised thus in order to understand the Hadith you have to be very learned. There seem to be contradictions in the Hadith to you because you are not learned. They ? the clergy ? are learned. Therefore, they do not see contradictions. When you are learned like them you, too, will not see contradictions. Until you are as learned as they you cannot contend with them on this (or any) subject. The fact that you fail to perceive any of this only testifies to your own ignorance; A Study of the Qur'an

What is this Hadith, clergy, learned etc you are speaking about. Surely I have not brought up this subject. I think this post is wrongly directed to me. Please, is this meant for me?

Peacev

[muslims]

and some comparisons on the pattern of arguments..

Salam..

Read again, it says "pattern of arguments"..

Peace peace

[drfazl]

cont.

and some comparisons on the pattern of arguments..

Whereas the Qur'an says...

It is He who has sent down to you the Book

in it are verses precise
they are the foundation of the Book

and others unspecific

As for those in whose hearts is deviation
they will follow that of it which is unspecific
seeking discord and seeking an interpretation

And no one knows its interpretation except Allah

But those firm in knowledge say
"We believe in it. All is from our Lord."
And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
(37)

refer also 5101 and 267-71

inconsistently...

logically...

Peace peace

What are you bringing this ayat 37 for? Did I reject his ayat? Or did I request you to discuss? If you really want to discuss the ayat we shall discuss it exclusively so. But it seems you pick up ayats here and there only to put me into your red whimsical explanation that which you fancy. And before having an idea of fixing some one using a particular ayat, please remember the same explanation you bring would fit you more than fixing your opponent. Hence do not hunt for ayats; it sure shall haunt you.

Peace

[muslims]

Salam

Read again, slowly... you are spamming this thread with irrelevant questions and ignoring our real issues. pr

Peace.

[drfazl]

Salam..

Read again, it says "pattern of arguments"..

Peace peace

With Quran there can never be argument if you fear Allah; and you began arguing from the word go. Instead just say your view without contradicting others' views; let as many as 8 million views pour in. You must have the criterion and patience to choose the best of them all. Such are the people who are men of understanding; and Allah conducts in righteousness only such of these people.

Peace

[drfazl]

Salam

Read again, slowly... you are spamming this thread with irrelevant questions and ignoring our real issues. pr

Peace.

Do you know the meaning of spam? How come you consider yourself as single, one man largest recipient group in this thread? I have bundles of issues with every posting of yours but I never contested any of them. I have posted just one post a weak ago and you said
You can enlighten us with your understanding or perspectives.

I have not made an argument here; but if it is thrust on me, I have no way except to try to make clear my view point from every angle possible. I have not passed a single comment on you, unlike you. Say your view against my view, without challenges and comments. This is the main principle to have in mind when it comes to Quran. Subdue, submit and surrender to Allah while writing your perspectives on an ayat for Allah knows best. Wait eagerly for any better input. If you find unworthy posts, all we have to do is just ignore and seek forgiveness for him and for yourself, for we have become judgemental already.

Peace and I stop here with you
May Allah Guide Us All

Salam
fazlur rahman

[muslims]

With Quran there can never be argument if you fear Allah; and you began arguing from the word go. Instead just say your view without contradicting others' views; let as many as 8 million views pour in. You must have the criterion and patience to choose the best of them all. Such are the people who are men of understanding; and Allah conducts in righteousness only such of these people.

Peace

Salam

Where does it mention that it is an argument against Allah or the Qur'an? (REFER HERE)

AND as I said, read again.. slowly...

Peace