Gay and Muslim?
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Salam huruf,
Let me highlight the issue so we are able to focus. The issue is...
ISSUE Whether sex is marriage, and marriage is sex.
Your conclusion (REFER HERE)
My conclusion (REFER HERE)Firstly,
So marriage and sex are to separate things. Does God say that, please quote HIM.
This is a clear ayat proving "marriage is not sex, and sex is not marriage". There are differences between the two words.
And lawful to you are beyond these
you seek them
with your property
desiring chastity
NOT unlawful SEXual intercourse <- sex is not marriage, marriage is not sex
(424)Secondly,
What is it talking about according to you? What does show in the aya that sex could be a distinct thing for marriage and that you could have sex but not give ujur and have it secret? Precisely what it is doing is not stating that you are making a contract but hat the thingW, in itself, to God's law is the contract, when you take a woman it is always before God, it is not on His back or IN SECRET. You are taking an undertaking. God is nto saying you need so and so and formalise so and so, it is saying that those women are allowed BY HIM to you if you do so and so. Obviously it is talking about sex. Or if you take it that it is not talking about sex, about what is it talking, it does not say marriage at all. There is no escape form it. When you engage in sex with a women, you are engaging with a women, full stop.
So based on this one ayat that are explaining "how and when to select slave girls for wife" or the punishment for a "slave girls committing adultery", you are making a conclusion that the whole ayats in the Qur'an are mentioning "sex is marriage, and marriage is sex"? Allah is only speaking about sex?
How can that be? nope
The following is the ayat you are referring to, which I still cannot understand how it is supporting your argument that the context of the ayat is explaining "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". It is totally irrelevant to your conclusion.
Please refer to the ayat and explain.
Topic Permission to marry Slave Girls
And whoever among you
cannot the means to marry FREE (not slave), believing women <- FIRST CONDITIONthen <- PERMISSION TO MARRY SLAVE GIRLS,
from those whom your right hands possess <- condition (1)
of believing SLAVE GIRLS
And Allah is most knowing about your faith
You are of one another
So marry them <- CONTINUANCE OF PERMISSION (from above)
with the permission of their people <- condition (2)
and give them their due compensation <- condition (3)
according to what is acceptable <- condition (4)
chaste <- condition (5) - cannot marry slave girls!!!
neither those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly <- sub-condition (5) - (a)
nor those who take lovers <- sub-condition (5) - (b)
But once they are sheltered in marriage <- SECOND SITUATION/ new condition
if they should commit adultery <- if the "slave girls" commit an offence
then for them is half the punishment for free women
This is for him among you who fears sinbut to be patient is better for you <- GENERAL RULE, the above is an exception.
And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful (don't marry slave girls, marry free girls)Allah wants to make clear to you <- reason for the above rules.
and guide you to the practices of those before you Is explaining marriage is sex, sex is marriage?
and to accept your repentance
And Allah is Knowing and Wise(425-26)
It is clear that Allah is explaining "the practice of marrying slave girls", when, who, what, how it is allowed and prohibited. Allah is explaining "how to select slave girls for wife". Allah has prohibited to marry "slave girl that commit unlawful intercourse randomly or who take lovers". Allah is not explaining about sex, or "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage".
Please explain how the above ayat is explaining your conclusion that "marriage is sex, and sex is marriage". hmm
Peace
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You are trying to prove your conclusion basing it on your conlusion. Do you mean to say that according to God's law sex can be separated from marriage? That is, that according to his law a sexual relationship is not marriage? Precisely what the Qur'an is telling believing men and women is that if they want to seprate sex from marriage they SHOULD NOT. That is it, God is pointing to the trick of making sex independent of marriage and condemns it and forbids it. So you may make a difference and separate both but that is precisely what God is forbidding, absolutely forbidding.Of course, God knows that human disbelief does that, but that is precisely what He forbids.
You are wasting your time trying to show me that sex and marriage are two different things. For whom are they different? For evil doers. For believers they are not. That is what God is making clear in the Qur'an.
So yoy think that because you do nto take seriously a sexual relationship God does not take it seriously? No He is telling you that you cannot do that. What is so difficult to understand in it. That doisbelievers and znis want to keep up their conventions of sex for use and throw and sex for social standing? That is human law, not God's law. That is desecration of wombs and desecration of people's most intimate and creative relationship, a sacred relationship. If you desecrate, does it means that for Gods stops being sacred?
Do you think that if you have a sexual relationship with your mother but do not marry her you are not trespassing on God's law?
Salaam
Salaam
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Salam huruf,
Do you mean to say that according to God's law sex can be separated from marriage?
REFER HERE
http//s23.postimg.org/6v0clr24r/marriage.png
- take note the status of father-in-law and mother-in-law is much like your own father and mother. There are not party to the contract of marriage but equally affected by marriages. Is the Qur'an or INSTITUTION of marriage is all about sex? (ie. as per your argument that sex is marriage and marriage is sex) (3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
and in conclusion, I'm quoting your statement..
REFER HERE
That is the Qur'an. If youa re talking about something else then there is no reason to discuss anything. You can have whatever you want, but not form the Qur'an.
Peace peace
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You are trying to prove your conclusion basing it on your conlusion. Do you mean to say that according to God's law sex can be separated from marriage? That is, that according to his law a sexual relationship is not marriage? Precisely what the Qur'an is telling believing men and women is that if they want to seprate sex from marriage they SHOULD NOT. That is it, God is pointing to the trick of making sex independent of marriage and condemns it and forbids it. So you may make a difference and separate both but that is precisely what God is forbidding, absolutely forbidding.Of course, God knows that human disbelief does that, but that is precisely what He forbids.
You are wasting your time trying to show me that sex and marriage are two different things. For whom are they different? For evil doers. For believers they are not. That is what God is making clear in the Qur'an.
So yoy think that because you do nto take seriously a sexual relationship God does not take it seriously? No He is telling you that you cannot do that. What is so difficult to understand in it. That doisbelievers and znis want to keep up their conventions of sex for use and throw and sex for social standing? That is human law, not God's law. That is desecration of wombs and desecration of people's most intimate and creative relationship, a sacred relationship. If you desecrate, does it means that for Gods stops being sacred?
Do you think that if you have a sexual relationship with your mother but do not marry her you are not trespassing on God's law?
Salaam
Salaam
So are you saying that as long as a gay couple have had sex and are faithful and committed to each other then they are to be considered married since sex and marriage are the same?
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else, and I have also made aboundantly clear that the Qur'an does not give any command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage except between a woman and a man. It contains no injunctions regarding sex-marriage except in that composition, not any other mixtures.
So no, sex is marriage between a woman and a man, between anything else the Qur'an as far as I recall does not say nor provides for nor do I see any reason why it should. Sex other than between woman and man does not respond to any overriding need of any society. Sex between man an woman is an overriding need for the perpetuation of the species and of any society, but sex between anything else is of no consequence for society, so it is not important nor conditions that society. It may be important for an individual but for society it is absolutely meaningless. However, sex betwen men and women is fundamental and and therefore merits that God establishes clearly what the stakes are and all the obligations that derive from that.
Salaam
Salaam
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else, and I have also made aboundantly clear that the Qur'an does not give any command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage except between a woman and a man. It contains no injunctions regarding sex-marriage except in that composition, not any other mixtures.
So no, sex is marriage between a woman and a man, between anything else the Qur'an as far as I recall does not say nor provides for nor do I see any reason why it should. Sex other than between woman and man does not respond to any overriding need of any society. Sex between man an woman is an overriding need for the perpetuation of the species and of any society, but sex between anything else is of no consequence for society, so it is not important nor conditions that society. It may be important for an individual but for society it is absolutely meaningless. However, sex betwen men and women is fundamental and and therefore merits that God establishes clearly what the stakes are and all the obligations that derive from that.
Salaam
Salaam
Ok well said. Thanks.
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All the time I have been talking about the Qur'an, not about anything else, and I have also made aboundantly clear that the Qur'an does not give any command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage except between a woman and a man. It contains no injunctions regarding sex-marriage except in that composition, not any other mixtures.
So no, sex is marriage between a woman and a man, between anything else the Qur'an as far as I recall does not say nor provides for nor do I see any reason why it should. Sex other than between woman and man does not respond to any overriding need of any society. Sex between man an woman is an overriding need for the perpetuation of the species and of any society, but sex between anything else is of no consequence for society, so it is not important nor conditions that society. It may be important for an individual but for society it is absolutely meaningless. However, sex betwen men and women is fundamental and and therefore merits that God establishes clearly what the stakes are and all the obligations that derive from that.
4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners...
?where do you see here a marriage as distinct from a sexual relationship?
RED is mine, inserted as premises.
Salam
The following is your conclusion and premises
Premise The Qur'an give command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage between a woman and a man. (comments)
Premise 4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners... (comments - fallacy)
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semen("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Issue
According to the Qur'an etc., Prostitution is equally between a woman and a man, but it is not a marriage despite there is an engagement of sexual relations; ie. there is "penetration", and it is sexual intercourse.
So how can your theory explain this situation?
Is prostitution an institution of marriage?
Yes? No?
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary?
Peace. peace
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Fare thee well,
Quran talks about normal relationships between man and woman and does not by any means even touch the area of homosexuality except perhaps the story of Lut. From logical deduction you can see that it is heterosexual marriages that are the standard. From a practical point of view the design of the sexes makes homosexual intercourse completely unproductive.
It seems to be innate in some individuals to be gay and nature itself is a testimony to that even but it is against the design. It is politically incorrect as someone said to say it might be a mental disorder and it is also difficult to know what goes on in the minds of these people too. Some people who were gay and forced themselves to live heterosexually often feel unhappy and it seems even if they try to make themselves get turned on by women they cannot.
It seems we have to accept that some people are homosexual and that they cannot be helped. It is difficult to cure someone on that mental level when you need to know exactly what goes on in the mind. Forcing them to be heterosexual will not help them and killing them is like killing something naturally occurring and thus no valid argument for it.
This topic is always intensively discussed and shows that it disturbs people.
God bless you
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RED is mine, inserted as premises.
Salam
The following is your conclusion and premises
Premise The Qur'an give command or injunciton regarding sex-marriage between a woman and a man. (comments)
Premise 4.25 ...and give them (women) their dues with equity with their virtue, without impropriety nor taking them as secret partners... (comments - fallacy)
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semen("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Issue
According to the Qur'an etc., Prostitution is equally between a woman and a man, but it is not a marriage despite there is an engagement of sexual relations; ie. there is "penetration", and it is sexual intercourse.
So how can your theory explain this situation?
Is prostitution an institution of marriage?
Yes? No?
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary?
Peace. peace
You do not get it. Too bad. God considers everything a marriage, it is men that refuse to acknowledge that they are acting outside the low God. Is that a reason for God to change the nature of the world He has created. If you marry a prostitute it is still marriage but YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, not God, do nto consider it so. What is it so sacred about brutish lust that makes it impossible for people to grasp that what they do is not what God meant and that they are associating, yes associating when they erect their own conept of marriage instead of God's.
Salaam
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God considers everything a marriage
If you marry a prostitute it is still marriage but YOU, YOU, YOU, YOU, not God, do nto consider it so.
Sex = Marriage
Marriage = Sex
Therefore, there is only "Marriage"Therefore, "Sex" must be defined according to "Marriage" (God's Law). <- fallacy, refer comment
Is this your point? Okay, I got it.
Salam
So it is your own rules?
Can you show and prove with an ayat from the Qur'an that a sexual intercourse with a prostitute is the institution of marriage (any religion or laws)?
Secondly,
("sexual contact involving penetration", ie. conduct, sexual conducts and not duty (deen) or institution)
Can you prove from the Qur'an how a "sexual penetration" is in fact a contract of marriage?
Which one is referring to the pen, paper and the ink for signing the contract? yes
Peace.
p/s I wonder why people are easily offended when we are just asking questions for their conclusions. When we just asking for an explanation. Why making a conclusion if you cannot back up or supported it with valid facts and reasoning? Why need to feel insecure? hmm
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REFER HERE
- take note the status of father-in-law and mother-in-law is much like your own father and mother. There are not party to the contract of marriage but equally affected by marriages. Is the Qur'an or INSTITUTION of marriage is all about sex? (ie. as per your argument that sex is marriage and marriage is sex) (3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Like the text hints at. We should separate contractees of marriage on one hand, and those affected by marriage on the other hand. Sex is not included with those that are just affected by marriage, like children, siblings and in-laws. The graphic could be misleading. Marriage may affect all what the graphic highlights, but it is not marriage as such. Marriage is a contract between two spouses.
I believe huruf wants to say that sex is a distinguishing characteristic of marriage (practical part/result/premission of the contract).
Sex is intimately connected to the constellation of marriage. Marriage gives permission to have sex. Sex is found in side marriage, but not outside. Having sex, therefore, is engaging in something which is part of marriage. Sex without marriage could perhaps then be seen as someone ripping a piece of marriage out of the whole, using it for temporary pleasure, and then throwing it away.... perhaps a bit like playing with someones feelings, for fun, and then just ditching that person like trash. It's like using something out of context (in the wrong context, for the wrong reasons) and then dumping it. -
Therefore Sex is marriage between a woman and a man (comments)
Marriage between a woman and a man is sex.Marriage is a man and a woman becoming husband and wife which is legal and public decency; lots of intercourses on various issues involving life goes between them before they decide to unite in their lives as partners to deal with their lives.
Sex is their private affair which they themselves engage in darkness and under cover; and to do it openly or talk of it plainly is not acceptable in a decent society.
The definition of sexual intercourse
sexual contact between individuals <- comments
involving penetrationesp. the insertion of a man's erect penis
into a woman's vagina
typically culminating in orgasm
and the ejaculation of semenNo. What you describe is sexual encounter!
Before becoming engaged in marriage as man and wife many an intercourse on matters of life and living as partners have got exchanged between them, heart to heart. Their relations is soulful intercourse; physical intercourse between them again has love and affection and care would be predominant and of paramount importance to them. As a result of this lust shall not play a lead role there. This is the reason why a married woman and man would avoid talk or explicit narration on sex between them. Any decent married couple of orthodox nature do not find as admissible to their hearts such private subject to be spoken out publicly.
Which Ayat? Law? Dictionary denies this!
Peace.
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Salam
This is much of the issue of confusing the "Causation" with "Association".
Human beings have an inherent tendency to "see" events associated or that "go together" as "events that cause one another"; ie. they conclude that because characteristic X (smoking) is associated with characteristic Y (death), that X therefore causes Y (death). Whereas someone may also die because of taking too much sugar (hyperinsulinism), no exercise or else.
Similarly, because of "SEX" is associated with "MARRIAGE" therefore "SEX" causes "MARRIAGE".
When we think this way, we are, however, often very wrong.
Association or correlation does not prove CAUSATION!
Sex = Penetration = Sexual Conducts
Marriage = Contract = Duty = Deen
Her argument = Sexual penetration = Duty (deen) to wife, children and relatives etc.
Therefore the issue is what causes marriage?
It is quite absurd to make a conclusion that it is all about sex, the sole determination factor! yes
Peace
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Salam
The word, 'Sex' is two gentle and constructively opposing genders designed as a set of unity, for the minds to become solemn and neutral. Lust and desire removed is sexual relation or intercourse of unifying the opposing genders. Marriage is solemn oath to live up to the expectation of the One, who created and ordained upon a community, such dignified relationship without talk of sexual intimacy between its men and women.
Peace.
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Salam
Situation 1 Sex is not equal to marriage
This is a clear ayat proving "marriage is not sex, and sex is not marriage". There are differences between the two words.
And lawful to you are beyond these
you seek them
with your property
desiring chastity
NOT unlawful SEXual intercourse <- sex is not marriage
(424)Situation 2 There are marriages, with or without Sex
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Other references
(3349), (2236-237), (55), (243) and (2233).
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
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Salam
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them <- marriage
before you have touched them <- no sex
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of "marriage".
Sex is not marriage.
Peace
Peace,
What is that waiting period connected to?
salam.
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Salam
I don't understand your point.
Do you understand the issue and this discussion?
The issue is whether there can be marriages without sex.
and.. there will be no issue of "divorce" if there is no "marriage".
Therefore, there is marriage, with or without sex.
Therefore, sex is not the "causation" of marriage.
Therefore, sex is not marriage.
How hard can that be?
The issue is not about things related to divorce procedure.
Peace.
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Salam,
I am not contradicting you but only favouring your point which is correct in my view.
O You who have believed
when you marry believing women
and then divorce them
before you have touched them
then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them
So provide for them and give them a gracious release
(3349)The critical difference between men and women are men are lusty for sex in marriage; while women are more concerned about security by way wealth and property, than sex. Her intercourse before marriage on such matters with the man were falsehood and lies; upon marriage the real intercourse opens as the topic of concern from the woman's point of view, which he is unable to satisfactorily respond; as a result she does not allow him to sexually advance; and there ends the matter. He gets angry and divorces her before even he was able to lustfully touch her. Yet Allah's decree, 'the man has to spend half the Mahr he had promised her and leave her' for reason he had cheated her into marriage only for sex.
And she is fit for proper marriage with a good God-fearing man without waiting period.
Peace
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Salam
Can there be a "divorce" without marriage?
Peace
Salam,
Valid. Marriage is generally a community affair, which would be considered by its members as sex having consummated. So from the point of its view it is marriage and then divorce. Allah speaks from the community's point of view. And for the believers who shall discern and abide by His decree, to them he says, "There shall not be the mandatory waiting period of three months."
salam