Gay and Muslim?
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Salaam,
"Ad hominem - attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer without addressing the substance of the argument"
This is an ad hominem simply posting that pyramid.
God bless you
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Salaam,
You do not grasp the phrase "not necessarily bound to Quran" in the intended way. It does not mean I am wrong.
Do you want me to care to elaborate? I mean that one does not have to be bound to Quran to be "labelled" Muslim as one may never have encountered Quran before. The Quran is a bonus to mankind, a blessing and a mercy from the Lord. Everyone that believes the Message and lives by it is a Muslim.
God bless you
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Salam
You are rambling without any ayat from the Qur'an.
How hard for you to show one ayat to prove a Muslim can I'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God", and still be a Muslim?
Call anyone you like, just show me one ayat from the Qur'an.
Peace
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Salaam,
Have I said that it means something different? You testify yourself by posting that ayat like a parrot. I did not say you do not submit when you live in the way of God in Islam, only that the word Islam means much more than only Submission. And for that I said that you can ask most Arabic speakers the same and they will say that Muslims and Islam means more than Submission. I said that "abide by laws" is a pretty sterile definition but I can admit it works but it is not completely accurate. Live in harmony is a part meaning of the whole concept by living in the way of God following his system (deen). Harmony does not really say it has to be peaceful as in those hippies in the 60's but rather a certain balance.
I am puzzled to what the heck I am intended to prove as there is no counter-argument from my part but only filling in where it is lackluster.
And we are still diverted from the topic of this thread which you try to evade with this gibberish. I was talking about your accusation of Bookish as a non-Muslim because of his sexuality.
Anyways, I think it is time to cease fire. It is too much unrest here and I hope you learned something. Maybe tomorrow when you have rested and meditated upon what happened here. A last word as a fruit for thoughts; consider why you say salaam when you greet someone in Islam. It testifies that Islam, Muslim and even the root SLM has a more intricate meaning than only Submission and Obedience (to laws) for not do you tell them "Submit! Obey!" when you meet them entering their homes?
And one of the most important aspects of being Muslims is our good behavior and it seems we might both have failed. I sacrificed it a bit to teach you a lesson and any observers. It is good practice to put restraints on ourselves and be humble. The behavioral part of God's Islam is as important as submission to God and His system. I was taught a lesson from the story in Quran "Did I not tell you that you could not have any patience with me?"
God bless you
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Yes brother. I do. Yet curious what kind of relevance it has to our discussion.
You mean that how you can be a Muslim if you are not certain that God exist? I told you that you are a Muslim as long as you want to believe, i.e. show good intentions and work righteousness and try to discover the straight path. Most people are not straight away certain believers without doubt in their hearts. At least I was not, and I am sure lots of people were not too until a certain point. But I had determination and my logic and reason told me that I had to be right and monotheism must be the way and now I was rewarded with certainty and guidance eventually. However during the struggle I had some doubts if I was right or wrong but that feeling disappeared with time. No one (God willing) can come and try to convince me that God does not exist showing all sorts of "evidence" to try to make me stagger in my belief as I have profound (personal) signs of God's existence. That is a reward from the Lord. I think most all steadfast Muslims will eventually be rewarded with absolute certainty.
And it was not traditional Islam or Christianity that brought me to God but actually my observation of God's world and some reasonable thinking and philosophies. Was I not Muslim when I started to believe in God (although still semi-doubtful), His system and attempted to be a righteous person despite never have read the Quran? Quran was the absolute turning point and it helped giving that final push towards absolute certainty together with lots of reverence and glorification and thankfulness. But the key was not Quran but the general change in my life that turned me towards the "sirat al-mustaqeem". It is the behavior and good conduct that is the primary focal point in Islam except belief in God and His system.
As a parrot I say
- Mindful of God
- The System (minding the Last Day)
- LEADING A RIGHTEOUS LIFE (can I emphasize on this enough??)
Being good even a five-year-old under normal rearing conditions know what it means, do you not? Will you argue that these criteria do not reflect the fundamental Islamic belief?
I am using some customized words, but that is only to keep the flow of words to better adapted to the English discourse.
We have discussed completely pointless still important aspects of Islam under the inappropriate forum thread.
I still did not receive any backup for your claim that Bookish is not a Muslim, what is your argument? He does not mind God (certain or not does not matter)? He does not accept the fact he will be made responsible for his actions on the Last Day? He is not a good person?
Saying someone else is not a good person is a pretty grave accusation, do you not think so?
God bless you
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Salam
Then why are you talking about "human action or conducts", when I'm speaking about "I'tiqad" (creed)?
You can either obey or disobey Allah. You are a Muslim if you iq'tiqad to obey Allah, and you are non-Muslim if you iq'tiqad to disobey Allah.
Peace
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Peace brother. I felt attracted to them right from a very early age. Initially, it was just my brothers and father...they were the first males that I came across. I didn't know about kissing or making out, so I would just imagine them naked...and rub my private part against the floor. It would give me a certain pleasure, and I would reach a climax soon...but never understood what it meant...or why it came only after some amount of rubbing! I guess I was around 6 or 7...not sure.
I realized I was a homosexual when I began reading books. We used to have many books and dictionaries. Only then did I discover that you are supposed to get attracted to females, not males. Until then, I had no idea what I was doing and why.
I can definitely avoid homosexual acts...but attraction to men comes as naturally to me as attraction to women comes to you..it's an integral and unavoidable part of me.
You compared it with your urge to pull hair. But does pulling hair satisfy a BASIC human need? Sex is a BASIC human need..and so is the desire to be loved by another man/woman. I don't think the two are comparable.
I wasn't offended by your post at all. I'm glad to know that you are tolerant, understanding and polite.
Peace good logic, I do often think it's a test. But it puzzles me why the same rules don't apply to straight men/women. I'm no different from them, am I? I often wish God had mentioned something about LGBT in the Koran. I'm not even asking for the same privileges..but at least an acknowledgment...maybe something like this
And there are some men among you who desire men, and some women who desire women. Do not act upon your desires, for it is a sin. It is a test from God. Whosoever is patient and does good deeds, for them is a reward with God. Do not oppress such people, for they were made this way. God is Omniscient, Wise (Koran ????)
Ah, but AQ has EVERYTHING that a believer needs for the Deen. If it isn't contained, it isn't part of the Deen. Don't trouble yourself.
It would have made me more confident about it coming from an All-Knowing Creator. Most Muslim countries oppress LGBT people.
So called "Muslim" countries--oppression is against the Deen.
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
4242 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.
I remember reading on this forum once that the women referred to here were prostitutes. So a command came that such women should be confined to their homes so that vice doesn't spread in the society. Are you sure 416 refers to gay men?
The women might be prostitutes, ALLAH knows best. However, the following verse may also be considered a context clue. I am not sure that 416 refers to gay men...but the fact that it refers to "the two men" might be a clue.
But then what is it referring to? I did not quite understand your post. Please clarify brother. The next verse makes it clear that it's okay to approach females but not males.
I was not a witness to the people of Lot, I only accept what AQ tells me--a lewdness not found before. Using my knowledge of history--which is backed with existing physical evidence--I know that homosexuality (if it is a lewdness) predates the people of Lot. I don't believe that there are any inconsistencies in AQ, thus I believe that the lewdness can't be homosexuality.
The next verse does not mean that it is okay to approach others out of lust! As an analogy, imagine if the verse stated "Not only do you kill the parents, but you kill the children too!" Some of the other translations make may the point more clear.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/81/default.htm
I often bump into some disturbing claims...I don't really endorse them..but neither do I know how to counter them. And they often haunt me. For example,
Koran says homosexuality never existed before Lot. But homosexuality existed. So Koran is not divine.
This is not stated in the Qur'an...only some people's understanding.
Koran says Christians worship Gabriel and Mary. But they don't. They worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So Koran is not divine.
I find three places in AQ where Gabriel (Peace upon him and all like him) is mentioned
297 Say "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of GOD, authenticating what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers."
298 "Whoever is an enemy to GOD and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then so GOD is the enemy to the disbelievers."
664 If the two of you repent to GOD, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then GOD is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the angels are his helpers.
The claim about Gabriel is false, as demonstrated. There are some Christians who do petition to Mary (Peace upon her and all Messengers and Prophets)--this is a form of worship, to do something towards a human that is for ALLAH alone. The "Hail Mary" or "Hail Holy Queen" prayers comes to mind. Not all Christians are Trinitarian--there are monotheist Christians as well. These are the ones, ISA, that are referred to in 262
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in GOD and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.
Koran says Jews worship Ezra as God's son. There is no historical record of this anywhere. So Koran is not divine.
History will lie...but which verses state this, please? )
Koran says gays choose men over women. We know that they don't choose. They simply act on the only desires they have. So Koran is not divine.
This is playing with translation...not intellectually honest. Better translations will make the point clearer.
Those that make claims should provide evidences for the claims. Incredible claims require incredible proofs!
I guess there will always be some questions that we can never answer. Nevertheless, my faith in God comes more from science than from the Koran. The fine-tuning of the Universe and the fact that we can decipher the Universe point to a deeper meaning.
For example, check these out
http//www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-goldilocks-enigma-by-paul-davies-419758.html
http//articles.latimes.com/1995-03-11/local/me-41323_1_paul-daviesNevertheless, among all the scriptures that I have studied, it is only the Koran that I find to be most consistent and coherent in its basic message. I can't say the same about the Bible - there's night and day difference between OT and NT. I find the NT a bit vague in its basic message - you can get Trinity out of it if you want, but you can also get Judeo-Islamic monotheism out of it if you want. In other words, if the whole Trinity thing was so essential to our salvation, you would expect that God would have explicitly mentioned it in the NT, which does not seem to be the case.
http//skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm
Please be sure to look at the explanations when provided.
Here is an overview of the mainstream Jewish perspective on Jesus (peace upon all Prophets).
http//www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
Here is a scholarly look at Christianity, using the Bible
The Grounds of Christianity Examined by Comparing The New Testament with the Old
by
George Bethune English, A.M.http//www.gutenberg.org/files/15968/15968-pdf.pdf
If you give the Bible to ten people who have no idea about Christianity, they will probably come up with ten different takeaways. I guess the same goes for scriptures of other faiths.
But give the Koran to them, and they will all probably agree about service to God alone, certainty of Hereafter, and the importance of good deeds.
Many people have preconceptions that hamper them from honestly considering the Qur'an; AQ is good for those that can accept it and put it into practice. For others, it is enough that they are monotheists and do good works.
God bless....
May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Salaam,
As the concept of Muslimity is being good folks and one of the primary assessment points on the Last Day. You actions and behavior will show your true faith and it is not just empty words.
Obey is also a pretty sterile choice of words, is it not? It is more fluent to say live in the way of God or not live in the way of God. If you live in the way of God then you "obey" God so to say. Islam is about love and peace and not about a military discipline tyrant god who expects flawless humans. In that case we all were doomed long ago.
If you corrupt the lands and commit atrocities then you do not believe or obey God. It is actually not harder than to say it is good vs. evil. We have the right to choose, but the evil part does not come from God. No one in their rightful mind who believed that God exist would disobey God, they would know they would lose. Now it is not that simple and God is hidden/unseen until the test is over and they will regret it sincerely.
God bless you
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Then why are you talking about "human action or conducts", when I'm speaking about "I'tiqad" (creed)?
Peace all
Where does it say i'tiqad or creed involves human action?
Definition of Creed or I'tiqad
creed noun \krd
a statement of the basic beliefs of a religionan idea or set of beliefs that guides the actions of a person or group
1 a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2 a set of fundamental beliefs; also a guiding principlecreed (krd)
n.- A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith.
- A system of belief, principles, or opinions laws banning discrimination on the basis of race or creed; an architectural creed that demanded simple lines.
Again, you don't read and only argues?
Salam handshake
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Salaam Abdul-Hadi,
I liked when you said
"For others, it is enough that they are monotheists and do good works." <--- This is good and a winner foundation.God bless you
Peace muslims,
I think we have to break out communication now. But the reason why I brought that up, and it was not to argue, but it was to say that behavior is part of belief. If you do not show your belief through actions it is relatively questionable whether you believe or not. For that I am pretty sure God backs me up too, if you only give it some thought. Without good behavior there is no creed as it is not complete.
God bless you
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but it was to say that behavior is part of belief.
Salam
I would make it clearly if it is related to behaviours.
Read again, the words in red.
The issue is how can someone be a Muslim if he is IQ'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God"? (refer here)
Do you read?
God bless you sun
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Salaam muslims,
You are almost driving me crazy here as I must repeat myself the 92859285295829th time and say why does that question have any relevance here? And even if it had I have already answered your question thoroughly at least once.
Your statement, even with sterile terminology, is not false and I made it clear that there was nothing to argue against it with.
Now why is that statement even remotely connected to the homosexuality of Bookish and other potential homosexuals if they are mindful of God and follow His creed or system or whatever word you would like to put in here. God created homosexuality so it ought to be part of His system and is not the opposite. And I said that mocking the homosexual or any maltreatment might even jeopardize one's own standing as a Muslim.
Good Night and sleep well whenever it is your turn. Now I am going to crash.
God bless you
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I felt attracted to them right from a very early age.. I would just imagine them naked...and rub my
peace,
do you had any shyness at that point? if you had shyness you would be doing 'it' in private. at that age doing in private is not normal or involuntary. if you do not have shyness you would have talked open to your brothers or father or mother.
the shyness is the indicator from your Lord do not do it. instead of asking yourself to get out of this situation, you started to look into human knowledge to reinforce your desire. there you got your desired acknowledgement as knowledge from the dictionaries, books, etc.
you concluded, that is your normal, given by God and started to find fault with God , and also wished for a verse against God (223). repent to God to bring u to normal which u have not done when u are young. and never to talk about this to anyone in private or public till you become normal.
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Salaam,
How wonderful, curing homosexuality. Never knew it was possible.
Ah well good night I said...
God bless
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How wonderful, curing homosexuality. Never knew it was possible.
peace bro,
pls look into your signature, for me good thing is possible only by God not by me.
for me prayer is more than what is mostly discussed here. i understand prayer is for my needs to be fulfilled from Allah. i ask for patience till it is achieved.
pls read the post there is something to learn.
i remind u with care, do not say/signature what u do not do!
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Salam
Facts
"... And those who guard their private parts. Except from their wives or those their right hands possess..." (7029-31)
Analysis
And those
who guard <- What is "guard"? Scope?
their private parts <- What is "private parts"? Scope?
Except <- The implication of the word "except"? An exclusion to all other than marriages?
from
their wives <- Is it referring to "marriage"? What is "wives"?Question
Whether Allah has permitted "marriage" (or those their right hands possess) and PROHIBIT EVERYTHING ELSE?
(ie. same-sex marriage, homosexuality, masturbation, child marriage, animal sex, polygamy, incest etc)
Peace
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Got to the point where we want to conclude something about "homosexuality" by seeing whether it is normal or abnormal or whether animals do it or not do it I think it is completely pointless. Murder is normal, Humanity has been murdering since a long time ago, robbing also, and doing self damning things too. I wouldn't go by anything being normal in order to draw a moral conclusion of it. Mistreating women has also been very, very normal, nothing wrong with it and very much practiced. The question is not that.
Besides evrything about sex and how we feel about it is in the mind. In the associations we make. I am sure, for men who dislike women, there is some association which makes it peinful for them to even evisage their closeness. I can see that anybody can feel agttratected to the same sex, because if we consider mere physical pleasure or excitation, sex is ragther universal, and people enjoy also with toys and with themselves, so in the case where one dislikes de other sex, there is no doubt that there is a mental -or emotional reflected on the mental- association who makes us avoid or even hate such contacts. Of course there is also the hormonal part, but which is first? Do not mental images also switch on or off the hormones? If we are enticed and suddenly and suddely somebody causes us strong pain, like burns us or kicks us, I think the hormones switch right off.
To say that because it is a mental or emotional association what causes being repelled by the opposite sex, that reppelling can be overcome by merely thinking of it, would be overoptimistic. Painful disorders may not be innate but they are real.
So the question regarding "homosexuality" as many disorders is not whether it is "normal" or not, but what we want out of our lives and what we in fact can get out of our lives. And that has nothing to do with defining this as natural or normal or unnatural or abnormal, but with our own decision. Men and women are lovely, most of us could be attracted to any for the matter of enjoyment, not to allow ourselves to be drawn into that is not a matter of feeling or not feeling attraction but a matter of what we want out of our lives, what kind of person we want to be.
Many time it entails not sex at all with any person, for the simple reason that what we want out of life is not the mere physical pleasurable exercise, but what the Qur'an enjoins, a deep spiritual, profound, sacred relationship, but there may be a scarcity of people with whom that would be possible or there may be none at all. Because also, there comes also into the mix the individual make up and feelings and every person has its own character and likes or dislikes.
So in the end, that also is a struggle a jihad in our lives, to live up to the principles we hold, and it is up to the individual to the make his or her way through them in the conditions he or she finds himherself.
But ultimately we are not passive sufferers of a "natural" or "unnatural" condition, we make choices in life, and rather than choices we should reflect and think and take decisions. It is our responsibility.
Salaam
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What I'm amazed at is how some people are very quick to judge homosexuals as non-muslims. I'm amazed at how people's own entrained culture and emotional standpoint can so easily make us judge others as non-muslim. What is homosexualiity? Isn't it basically an attraction towards the same sex? How can this alone and in itself be the reason why we would be non-muslim? If this is the case, and if just this one variable alone is enough to tilt us over to the non-muslim side, then there must be millions of other things that would render us non-muslim. One such thing would be the habit of judging others.
I find it hard to believe that sexual mindset would spoil it for a person who otherwise believes in God, does good etc. Is this one unforgivable sin, while other sins are forgivable? I find it hard to understand why some people are so confident in judging others. Does homosexuality always imply the condition of non-muslim? We are all full of sin/rejection/rebellion/blindness/arrogance/ignorance... is homosexuality exceptionally bad among human inclinations and expressions?