Gay and Muslim?
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Salam
and..
Do you understand the following statement?
It always require both
iman and amal
faith (creed or decisive belief) and action (behaviour)to make someone muslim or non-muslim.
Can you differentiate between being attracted (faith) to the same sex, and committing sex (action)?
If it is just simply being attracted and without any action against the Qur'an... no problem.
It always requires both.
Can you be sentenced to death just because you want to kill so and so?
However the issue of this thread is about to remains as gay, and at the same time being a Muslim.
I wanted to ask if a person can be gay and Muslim?
This requires identification of "i'qtiqad" (creed), whether "to remain" or "to reform".
Peace
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It always require both
iman and amal
faith (creed or decisive belief) and action (behaviour)to make someone muslim or non-muslim.
That's why the words "believed and done righteous deeds" is always put together in the Qur'an (REFER HERE)
It is so fantastic that you just reformulate my words and say exactly the same thing as me as if I was completely lost in my reasoning.
Faith in God, well faith in God, well it is a very simple thing if you just seek God's Nearness and Guidance through righteous deeds and devotion. You will not have Faith in God without showing it because otherwise God will make you blind to the Truth and you will end up on the Last Day as the people who say that "but we believe" and they only imagined that they believed.
Play with Arabic words as much you want because it is not necessary at all, I explained the Message without involving any Arabic at all, because the Message is not bound to any book at all.
Most of the time we only write confirmations of what we said back with the impression that the other one is wrong. And we are completely off-topic as I still want proof of why a gay individual is not a Muslim despite my logical arguments. What proof do you have that a gay is not showing his belief in God?
Salam
Then do you understand the following statement?
Peace
I understand what you wrote but that depends on if the individual can actually do anything about his condition and if he cannot then this is just putting psychological pressure on him, so your statement can only be true if certain criteria is met. So there might not be anything this individual can reform from as this condition is innate thus rendering it irrelevant to his service of God.
And even if this person is sinning this way but doing wonderful things for others and is pious in his belief to God then which will weigh the heaviest? YES, the good things he had done will weigh heavier and this person will move on with a smile on his face on the Judgment Day.
I think you misunderstand what makes a person a Muslim or not. Like I echo to you now from my previous post is most likely no one, absolutely NO ONE, would be a Muslim if we use your logic since who is without sin?
Have you been perfect in your service to God and have you never been able to make a more righteous decision? Have you never been selfish?
What is unforgivable however is idolatry or shirk guarding ones own ego as idol or any other person or entity. There you have the unforgivable offense. But despite it being unforgivable it is pretty conditional since we always risk revering our ego by mistake so what we can do is doing out utmost to prevent it. You know all the negative traits of humans and that is your shirk on one level. But this behavior can vary in degree and we may have this defect and still be Muslims.
God bless you
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Salaam,
Now I am going to be selfish, I am tired of discussing with you and throw in the towel, but I do by no means admit you were right but rather that we are only going around in circles getting nowhere and it might annoy the other participants of this forum, and I feel there are more important things to do. If you read my posts with a more open heart you will see my point and that I knew what you were talking about.
God bless you
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Salam
It is so fantastic that you just reformulate my words and say exactly the same thing as me as if I was completely lost in my reasoning.
I'm reformulating you words?
Do you remember how many times I asked whether you "READ"?
Please also REFER HERE, way before we are discussing this topic.
Secondly,
Most of the time we only write confirmations of what we said back with the impression that the other one is wrong. And we are completely off-topic as I still want proof of why a gay individual is not a Muslim despite my logical arguments. What proof do you have that a gay is not showing his belief in God?
That's why I repeatedly asked "Do you read"? yes
Okay, so you don't read and only argues.
and you called me a "rebel" etc for nothing.. not a problem. peace
Thirdly,
I understand what you wrote but that depends on if the individual can actually do anything about his condition and if he cannot then this is just putting psychological pressure on him, so your statement can only be true if certain criteria is met. So there might not be anything this individual can reform from as this condition is innate thus rendering it irrelevant to his service of God.
Same, I've said it...
and there are various "degrees for the doers of good", each action are independent and depends on the particular situation, and known only by that person (gay).
Fourthly
I think you misunderstand what makes a person a Muslim or not. Like I echo to you now from my previous post is most likely no one, absolutely NO ONE, would be a Muslim if we use your logic since who is without sin?
Have you been perfect in your service to God and have you never been able to make a more righteous decision? Have you never been selfish?
Is that a problem with the facts from the Qur'an that the majority will be in the hell fire?
and.. there is no misunderstanding from the Qur'an.
I'm very sure on the following issue, crystal clear!
How hard for you to show one ayat to prove a Muslim can I'TIQAD NOT TO "surrenders and submits to the laws of God", and still be a Muslim?
Call anyone you like, just show me one ayat from the Qur'an.
You can also call 8 billion peoples, or even Muhammad to show me such an ayat, if you can.
Further, I'm not talking about specific people
I'm talking about the rules in the Qur'an.
Therefore there is no issue relating to "who is perfect" (refer here), and neither there is need to distort the words of Allah to fit human conditions.
Lastly,
but I do by no means admit you were right but rather that we are only going around in circles getting nowhere and it might annoy the other participants of this forum, and I feel there are more important things to do. If you read my posts with a more open heart you will see my point and that I knew what you were talking about
I don't bother to be right for no reason, my real concern what is the rules in the Qur'an.
What is just and unjust.
If you wish, I acknowledge that you are right and I am wrong, doesn't matter to me (refer here).
What matter is we discuss and give reasons from the Qur'an.
And in anything over which you disagree
its ruling is to Allah <- Qur'an, not even Muhammad, ulama, scientist, majority, opinions etc.
, "That is Allah , my Lord; upon Him I have relied, and to Him I turn back."
(4210)Peace peace
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Salaam,
You are incredible Mr. muslims. You have all the answers and you keep asking questions. Give it some thought. You have enough input from me.
God bless you
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Assalamu-alaykum.
Being GAY is completely against basic Islamic principles. You can comfort yourselves with your apologetic views but Islamically this is incorrect. Homosexuality is against the nature of mankind. Period. Please try to understand this. Also I have studied the various sciences of Islam including the Qur'an and I can confirm that the root reason of why the nation of Lut Alayhis-Salaam were destroyed was homosexuality. Peace and love to all. No offence intended.
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Salaam,
Yet it happens and people cannot understand why. Why does it happen to people by nature if it is sinful? Then you would make God a sinner too for creating homosexual people.
Lut's people did more than only homosexual acts but rape etc.
God bless you
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Salaam,
Yet it happens and people cannot understand why. Why does it happen to people by nature if it is sinful? Then you would make God a sinner too for creating homosexual people.
Lut's people did more than only homosexual acts but rape etc.
God bless you
God did not create homosexual people he created, people, just people. People have a tendency to learn through influence and environment they grow up in. It has never been proven that there is a gay gene so of it's not biologically embedded in the person at birth then you have to accept it is behavior, tendencies which are learnt and picked up and so the person develops a preference for one gender or the other. Heterosexuality is the norm, there is no denying that so therefore homosexuality is going against the grain. Maybe you wouldnt call it a disorder but it's definitely not normal. To keep the human population going nature and indeed god has intended for humans to have the ability to procreate and have children. That is what nature intends if you want to talk about what is natural.
Couples twisting gender roles having gay sex and then adopting children from straight couples because gay couples cannot bring to life a child (so again this setup goes against nature and ultimately goes against god.
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Just to add to my post above. If God creating gay people then you are saying that God is flawed and his plan for humanity is flawed. Do you think God doesnt know what is needed for humanity to survive? Homosexuality puts a spanner in the works does it not?
Reinforced by the verse which states that men approaching men for sex instead of women is a transgression. So you are not speaking for god when you say he is creating gay people. God knows who and what he should create and for what purpose.
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Greetings and Peace, all
Assalamu-alaykum.
Being GAY is completely against basic Islamic principles. You can comfort yourselves with your apologetic views but Islamically this is incorrect. Homosexuality is against the nature of mankind. Period. Please try to understand this. Also I have studied the various sciences of Islam including the Qur'an and I can confirm that the root reason of why the nation of Lut Alayhis-Salaam were destroyed was homosexuality. Peace and love to all. No offence intended.
Which Islamic principles is it against, specifically?
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
Why do you claim that homosexuality is against the nature of mankind?
It may be unnatural for some and natural for others. Homosexuality has been around for thousands of years, is common in nature, and is common in humanity. Modern medicine and modern psychology have accepted homosexuality as normal, also.
How can you confirm that the "root reason" that the people of Lot were destroyed was homosexuality?
2844 And you were not on the western slope when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.
Please consider the information available before making a conclusion.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
Incredible claims require incredible proofs.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Just to add to my post above. If God creating gay people then you are saying that God is flawed and his plan for humanity is flawed. Do you think God doesnt know what is needed for humanity to survive? Homosexuality puts a spanner in the works does it not?
Reinforced by the verse which states that men approaching men for sex instead of women is a transgression. So you are not speaking for god when you say he is creating gay people. God knows who and what he should create and for what purpose.
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
"In some cases, homosexual alliances may even be adaptive, helping individuals defend territories, advance their social status, or get help with parental care."
-- Australian biologist Geoff MacFarlane in a new study of gay birds' behavior spanning 93 species of birds.
http//www.nature.com/news/2010/100709/full/news.2010.344.html
http//www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347210001855
If ALLAH did not create gay people, then who created them? )
The verses that talk about the people of Lot approaching men instead of women can be considered in several ways. One way of considering the verses is that approaching any person out of lust is a transgression, and this transgression is compounded by approaching the same gender out of lust. As an analogy "Instead of stealing my wallet, you stole my dirty old underwear!" Stealing isn't okay in either of the cases--and neither is approaching people out of lust.
Some translations may make the point clearer than others.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/81/default.htm
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/27/55/default.htm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
"In some cases, homosexual alliances may even be adaptive, helping individuals defend territories, advance their social status, or get help with parental care."
-- Australian biologist Geoff MacFarlane in a new study of gay birds' behavior spanning 93 species of birds.
http//www.nature.com/news/2010/100709/full/news.2010.344.html
http//www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347210001855
If ALLAH did not create gay people, then who created them? )
The verses that talk about the people of Lot approaching men instead of women can be considered in several ways. One way of considering the verses is that approaching any person out of lust is a transgression, and this transgression is compounded by approaching the same gender out of lust. As an analogy "Instead of stealing my wallet, you stole my dirty old underwear!" Stealing isn't okay in either of the cases--and neither is approaching people out of lust.
Some translations may make the point clearer than others.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/81/default.htm
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/27/55/default.htm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
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Salaam,
I have argued about some views on homosexuality, however it has been taking into account that being born gay is involuntary. Of course if this is not the case then I would adapt to this instead. As far as I know many who are gay cannot help this. It was classified as a mental disorder until just a few decades ago. It is difficult to say that it is a violation for as long as you do not know if it is innate or not.
You say they have found no gay gene, but they have not found much other evidence either. It has been difficult to prove if it has purely psychological causes.
I can agree that certain homosexual behavior in some individuals is only confusion and giving in to temptation. I know some females who sometimes have girlfriends and sometimes boyfriends and it means there must be a matter of choice there.
The question is still on those who are gay because of their childhood traumas etc, if you can actually tell that they should be called non-Muslim even if they are otherwise goodly people and honestly believe in God. It is not really this thing that makes a Muslim or not but the struggle towards Islam.
Like I told before and was totally disregarded is that there is no unforgivable offense except idolatry/shirk. We humans are often loaded with sins and if homosexuality is a sin it is just one sin amongst many sins, and nothing indicates that it would render a person non-Muslim. I say it again "If we follow this concept then probably no person in the world would be a Muslim". Now certainly this is not the case so the sinning homosexual is a Muslim as long as devotion to God and purification is taking place. It is really walking out on thin ice to call people non-Muslims on this basis as there is nothing to suggest this.
So even if now let us say homosexuality is actually a sin, it is added to the repository of sins and it can by no means determine whether a person is a Muslim or not on its own. In the end, all sins are weighed up against the good deeds, and the good deeds weigh much heavier than the sins, so the "sinful" Muslim might still get his place in Heaven if he is otherwise a goodly person and wholeheartedly believes in God and His realm.
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
It's not really a great argument though... Someone could say Allah created psychopaths, people with addictions or cannibals. One species of fungus lodges itself inside ants and eat their brains out before the poor ant even dies. Just Google fungus and ants. It's horrible but nonetheless created by God. Just cause it's natural or that it was made by the Creator doesn't mean it's good or nice.
Not saying that being homosexual is against the Quran, since I don't have enough knowledge and didn't verify anything yet. Just pointing out it's not a great argument for it.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
It's not really a great argument though... Someone could say Allah created psychopaths, people with addictions or cannibals. One species of fungus lodges itself inside ants and eat their brains out before the poor ant even dies. Just Google fungus and ants. It's horrible but nonetheless created by God. Just cause it's natural or that it was made by the Creator doesn't mean it's good or nice.
Not saying that being homosexual is against the Quran, since I don't have enough knowledge and didn't verify anything yet. Just pointing out it's not a great argument for it.
By itself, it is not a compelling argument. However, we are instructed to use our senses and observe creation. It would be one thing if homosexuality was only found among humans--but this is not the case. Homosexuality is found in ALL known species that reproduce sexually.
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Take the example of the mosquito. There are homosexual mosquitos! hmm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
I had not discussed DNA in this forum yet--advancing that notion is called a straw man argument. Do other animals form these "tendencies" or are they innate? )
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
What "accusation" has been made...and how are you so well informed of ALLAH's plan?
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
Post-menopausal women can't procreate either--nor men and women with certain afflictions. Are they also unnatural? hmm There are many forms of sexual activity, most of which both can be done by both men and women. Just because one person (or many people) feel that something is "icky" doesn't make it unnatural. How many lesbians do you suppose engage in anal sex? Why is the anus accommodating to male genetalia? Tell me, where do you suppose urine drains from? Is urine also not a bodily waste? HIV is spread by many ways, but mainly by a sexually active person having many sexual partners and coming into contact with another infected person. This may be more common in the male homosexual community because social stigma limits/prevents many from maintaining a single long term relationship.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
The above statements fly in the face of observation of nature, modern medicine, and modern psychology. The above statements also are unsupported by a single shred of evidence. Surely if the above is true, there is some evidence?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace all, Peace spiritual seeker 86,
Homosexuality was condemned only by Lot, we see no named specific reference by God as to its sinfulness. But that does not eliminate the possibility of its being sinful, since there are some verses that allude to that being the case, i.e., verses where God speaks in the first person to that effect (see 2174).
The human mind is arguably the most impenetrable object of scientific inquiry, as such, to ascertain the extent of the psycho-genetically determined urge to be attracted to other men is difficult, and the research is still in its infancy.
Supposing, for argument's sake, that homosexuality is genetically determined, then it is clearly beyond one's power to be gay. And we all know from the Quran that God does not burden a soul beyond what it can bear.
Conversely, supposing that homosexuality is in actual fact an inclination that is fashioned by our minds and is well within our control, then it behoves us to consider that it is possibly sinful.
Furthermore, it should warrant our careful attention that Lot is repeatedly quoted in the Quran, in one form or another, as calling homosexuality a sin, and not once does God rebut in saying that Lot was wrong in his saying that. And this begs the question, on whose behalf was Lot acting in condemning homosexuality? Did Lot reason, independently of God, that homosexuality is sinful? Or was he simply discharging his duties as a messenger of God?
My two cents.
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Peace
God created us as pairs - male & female,
not as male & male or
female & female
954 We have created man in the best form.
2678 ?The One who has created me, He will guide me.?
3020 And from His signs is that He created you from dust, then you became human beings, spreading out.
3021 And from His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and mercy. In that are signs for a people who reflect.
3511 And God created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into pairs. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for God.
3636 Praise be to the One who has created all pairs from what the earth sprouts out and from themselves, and from what they do not know.
396 He created you from one person, then He made from it its mate. And He sent down to you eight pairs of the livestock. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, a creation after a creation in three darkness?s. Such is God your Lord. To Him belongs the sovereignty. There is no god besides Him. How is it then you deviate?
4211 Initiator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.
4312 And He is the One who has created all the pairs, and He made for you of the ships and the livestock that which you can ride.
4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.
5016 And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein.
5149 And of everything We created a pair, perhaps you may remember.
5345 And He is the One who has created the pair, the male and the female.
923 And by what He has created, the male and female.
7537 Was he not a seed from sperm put forth?
7538 Then he was an embryo, so he was created and developed.
7539 Then He made from it the pair, the male and the female.
788 And We created you in pairs?
7536 Did man think that he will be left neglected?
560 Say "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who followed evil;- these are worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!?
It is worthwhile to remind the below prayer
2286 Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us aainst the unbelieving people.
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Salam
(from here)
Rules
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
(7029-31)Definition of "wives"
a man's partner in marriage
Further, the "wives" can never be referred to "men".
"Man" cannot be "wife", but "husband".
Facts
It is "natural" for homosexuals to have "private parts".
(cf. natural human organs vs. human/animal behaviours (issue of just or unjust) -> is natural?)Therefore, they are also affected by the above rules relating to "private parts" (7029-31), UNLESS they have none.
Question
Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
Answer, choose one
Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)
Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)
Peace all
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What is natural?
http//s12.postimg.org/x1fv1nnr1/natural.png
(cf. natural human organs vs. human/animal behaviours (issue of just or unjust) -> is natural?)
and that's why...
Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord
but most of the people do not believe
(1117)And most of the people
although you strive
are not believers
(12103)(REFER HERE)
It is "natural" for people not to believe in the Qur'an and "be unjust"; ie. "human conditions etc."
Peace all