Gay and Muslim?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Just to add to my post above. If God creating gay people then you are saying that God is flawed and his plan for humanity is flawed. Do you think God doesnt know what is needed for humanity to survive? Homosexuality puts a spanner in the works does it not?
Reinforced by the verse which states that men approaching men for sex instead of women is a transgression. So you are not speaking for god when you say he is creating gay people. God knows who and what he should create and for what purpose.
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
"In some cases, homosexual alliances may even be adaptive, helping individuals defend territories, advance their social status, or get help with parental care."
-- Australian biologist Geoff MacFarlane in a new study of gay birds' behavior spanning 93 species of birds.
http//www.nature.com/news/2010/100709/full/news.2010.344.html
http//www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347210001855
If ALLAH did not create gay people, then who created them? )
The verses that talk about the people of Lot approaching men instead of women can be considered in several ways. One way of considering the verses is that approaching any person out of lust is a transgression, and this transgression is compounded by approaching the same gender out of lust. As an analogy "Instead of stealing my wallet, you stole my dirty old underwear!" Stealing isn't okay in either of the cases--and neither is approaching people out of lust.
Some translations may make the point clearer than others.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/81/default.htm
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/27/55/default.htm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
"In some cases, homosexual alliances may even be adaptive, helping individuals defend territories, advance their social status, or get help with parental care."
-- Australian biologist Geoff MacFarlane in a new study of gay birds' behavior spanning 93 species of birds.
http//www.nature.com/news/2010/100709/full/news.2010.344.html
http//www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347210001855
If ALLAH did not create gay people, then who created them? )
The verses that talk about the people of Lot approaching men instead of women can be considered in several ways. One way of considering the verses is that approaching any person out of lust is a transgression, and this transgression is compounded by approaching the same gender out of lust. As an analogy "Instead of stealing my wallet, you stole my dirty old underwear!" Stealing isn't okay in either of the cases--and neither is approaching people out of lust.
Some translations may make the point clearer than others.
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/81/default.htm
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/27/55/default.htm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
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Salaam,
I have argued about some views on homosexuality, however it has been taking into account that being born gay is involuntary. Of course if this is not the case then I would adapt to this instead. As far as I know many who are gay cannot help this. It was classified as a mental disorder until just a few decades ago. It is difficult to say that it is a violation for as long as you do not know if it is innate or not.
You say they have found no gay gene, but they have not found much other evidence either. It has been difficult to prove if it has purely psychological causes.
I can agree that certain homosexual behavior in some individuals is only confusion and giving in to temptation. I know some females who sometimes have girlfriends and sometimes boyfriends and it means there must be a matter of choice there.
The question is still on those who are gay because of their childhood traumas etc, if you can actually tell that they should be called non-Muslim even if they are otherwise goodly people and honestly believe in God. It is not really this thing that makes a Muslim or not but the struggle towards Islam.
Like I told before and was totally disregarded is that there is no unforgivable offense except idolatry/shirk. We humans are often loaded with sins and if homosexuality is a sin it is just one sin amongst many sins, and nothing indicates that it would render a person non-Muslim. I say it again "If we follow this concept then probably no person in the world would be a Muslim". Now certainly this is not the case so the sinning homosexual is a Muslim as long as devotion to God and purification is taking place. It is really walking out on thin ice to call people non-Muslims on this basis as there is nothing to suggest this.
So even if now let us say homosexuality is actually a sin, it is added to the repository of sins and it can by no means determine whether a person is a Muslim or not on its own. In the end, all sins are weighed up against the good deeds, and the good deeds weigh much heavier than the sins, so the "sinful" Muslim might still get his place in Heaven if he is otherwise a goodly person and wholeheartedly believes in God and His realm.
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
It's not really a great argument though... Someone could say Allah created psychopaths, people with addictions or cannibals. One species of fungus lodges itself inside ants and eat their brains out before the poor ant even dies. Just Google fungus and ants. It's horrible but nonetheless created by God. Just cause it's natural or that it was made by the Creator doesn't mean it's good or nice.
Not saying that being homosexual is against the Quran, since I don't have enough knowledge and didn't verify anything yet. Just pointing out it's not a great argument for it.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
It's not really a great argument though... Someone could say Allah created psychopaths, people with addictions or cannibals. One species of fungus lodges itself inside ants and eat their brains out before the poor ant even dies. Just Google fungus and ants. It's horrible but nonetheless created by God. Just cause it's natural or that it was made by the Creator doesn't mean it's good or nice.
Not saying that being homosexual is against the Quran, since I don't have enough knowledge and didn't verify anything yet. Just pointing out it's not a great argument for it.
By itself, it is not a compelling argument. However, we are instructed to use our senses and observe creation. It would be one thing if homosexuality was only found among humans--but this is not the case. Homosexuality is found in ALL known species that reproduce sexually.
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
Take the example of the mosquito. There are homosexual mosquitos! hmm
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
I had not discussed DNA in this forum yet--advancing that notion is called a straw man argument. Do other animals form these "tendencies" or are they innate? )
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
What "accusation" has been made...and how are you so well informed of ALLAH's plan?
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
Post-menopausal women can't procreate either--nor men and women with certain afflictions. Are they also unnatural? hmm There are many forms of sexual activity, most of which both can be done by both men and women. Just because one person (or many people) feel that something is "icky" doesn't make it unnatural. How many lesbians do you suppose engage in anal sex? Why is the anus accommodating to male genetalia? Tell me, where do you suppose urine drains from? Is urine also not a bodily waste? HIV is spread by many ways, but mainly by a sexually active person having many sexual partners and coming into contact with another infected person. This may be more common in the male homosexual community because social stigma limits/prevents many from maintaining a single long term relationship.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
The above statements fly in the face of observation of nature, modern medicine, and modern psychology. The above statements also are unsupported by a single shred of evidence. Surely if the above is true, there is some evidence?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace all, Peace spiritual seeker 86,
Homosexuality was condemned only by Lot, we see no named specific reference by God as to its sinfulness. But that does not eliminate the possibility of its being sinful, since there are some verses that allude to that being the case, i.e., verses where God speaks in the first person to that effect (see 2174).
The human mind is arguably the most impenetrable object of scientific inquiry, as such, to ascertain the extent of the psycho-genetically determined urge to be attracted to other men is difficult, and the research is still in its infancy.
Supposing, for argument's sake, that homosexuality is genetically determined, then it is clearly beyond one's power to be gay. And we all know from the Quran that God does not burden a soul beyond what it can bear.
Conversely, supposing that homosexuality is in actual fact an inclination that is fashioned by our minds and is well within our control, then it behoves us to consider that it is possibly sinful.
Furthermore, it should warrant our careful attention that Lot is repeatedly quoted in the Quran, in one form or another, as calling homosexuality a sin, and not once does God rebut in saying that Lot was wrong in his saying that. And this begs the question, on whose behalf was Lot acting in condemning homosexuality? Did Lot reason, independently of God, that homosexuality is sinful? Or was he simply discharging his duties as a messenger of God?
My two cents.
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Peace
God created us as pairs - male & female,
not as male & male or
female & female
954 We have created man in the best form.
2678 ?The One who has created me, He will guide me.?
3020 And from His signs is that He created you from dust, then you became human beings, spreading out.
3021 And from His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and mercy. In that are signs for a people who reflect.
3511 And God created you from dust, then from a seed, then He made you into pairs. And no female becomes pregnant, nor gives birth, without His knowledge. Nor does anyone have his life extended, or his life is shortened, except in a record. This is easy for God.
3636 Praise be to the One who has created all pairs from what the earth sprouts out and from themselves, and from what they do not know.
396 He created you from one person, then He made from it its mate. And He sent down to you eight pairs of the livestock. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, a creation after a creation in three darkness?s. Such is God your Lord. To Him belongs the sovereignty. There is no god besides Him. How is it then you deviate?
4211 Initiator of the heavens and the earth. He created for you from among yourselves mates, and also mates for the livestock so they may multiply. There is nothing that equals Him. He is the Hearer, the Seer.
4312 And He is the One who has created all the pairs, and He made for you of the ships and the livestock that which you can ride.
4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.
5016 And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein.
5149 And of everything We created a pair, perhaps you may remember.
5345 And He is the One who has created the pair, the male and the female.
923 And by what He has created, the male and female.
7537 Was he not a seed from sperm put forth?
7538 Then he was an embryo, so he was created and developed.
7539 Then He made from it the pair, the male and the female.
788 And We created you in pairs?
7536 Did man think that he will be left neglected?
560 Say "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who followed evil;- these are worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!?
It is worthwhile to remind the below prayer
2286 Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us aainst the unbelieving people.
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Salam
(from here)
Rules
And those who guard their private parts
Except from their wives <- is referring to marriage
(7029-31)Definition of "wives"
a man's partner in marriage
Further, the "wives" can never be referred to "men".
"Man" cannot be "wife", but "husband".
Facts
It is "natural" for homosexuals to have "private parts".
(cf. natural human organs vs. human/animal behaviours (issue of just or unjust) -> is natural?)Therefore, they are also affected by the above rules relating to "private parts" (7029-31), UNLESS they have none.
Question
Whether "homosexuals" must guard their "private parts" EXCEPT to "wives" (women/marriage)?
Answer, choose one
Homosexuals "must guard" their private parts except to "wives" (ie. marriage)
Homosexuals "can use" their private parts to "anyone" (ie. same-sex marriage, etc.)
Peace all
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What is natural?
http//s12.postimg.org/x1fv1nnr1/natural.png
(cf. natural human organs vs. human/animal behaviours (issue of just or unjust) -> is natural?)
and that's why...
Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord
but most of the people do not believe
(1117)And most of the people
although you strive
are not believers
(12103)(REFER HERE)
It is "natural" for people not to believe in the Qur'an and "be unjust"; ie. "human conditions etc."
Peace all
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Peace All
I understand everyone's argument on here. I feel that some are holding on to political correctness and some are expressing their own personal feelings. Of course, God exhorts us as part of Islam to be kind and to treat folk with dignity. Believe me, I come from a land where political correctness abounds.However, remember our guide book is the Koran and if we trawl the whole of it, there are enough signs to tell us that he intended couples to be man with woman. In the beginning he made a man and a woman. He talks throughout the Koran of pairs " We created you in pairs." By all means be kind and respectful to homosexuals - the Koran to tells you to. However, don't confuse kindness with legitimacy.
If we trawl the Koran we will find enough examples not condemning homosexuality, but making it clear that God intended pairs to be male with female.
Peace
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What is natural?
http//s12.postimg.org/x1fv1nnr1/natural.png
and that's why...
Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord
but most of the people do not believe
(1117)And most of the people
although you strive
are not believers
(12103)(REFER HERE)
It is "natural" for people not to believe in the Qur'an; ie. "human conditions etc."
Peace all
Salaam muslims,
If you used your skill for something other than being arrogant and judging people it would be more useful for the spreading of the Light. I see a potential and your arguments are true although misplaced. I see a besserwism instead of a willingness to cooperate. You said it yourself that you did not want to be right, but the impression is a strong urge to prove everyone right with your own understanding of the Message. The point is as you said it yourself is not to be right but spread the Light, Peace and Prosperity, and we should start with ourselves. My old self would have hated you, but I try to see the best in each and everyone of us. We can see it as a blessing from the Lord.
We can agree that homosexuality is against the design of God and is thus incompatible with the system of God, but what we cannot agree on is whether it renders a person a Muslim or not. I would say it is many factors which determine whether a person is a Muslim and most it is within the heart of this person and whatever this person does in terms of righteousness. Perhaps, and likely, it is a sin, but many things can be considered sins and who is sinless here?
You understand the backbone of the Message, your quotes at a whole testify that, but you fall prey to conjecture on certain things such as deciding yourself who is not a Muslim without a solid backup and using sterile logic which generalizes a lot.
Please read my post with love and see it not as an attempt at throwing things at you and only argue but rather help you and all. You could be useful for future organizational attempts. We shall see what happens about that but I sense strong movements. However, what will happen I cannot foresee.
"but most of the people do not believe" - This phrase is ultimately true and this is why the small group of people who actually do believe must let down their egos and instead unite under the creed of God. It is the "ego" that is the reason why most people do not enter the gates of Heaven. I also find myself selfish at times as I am not perfect but I start to seek counsel with the Lord and reformulate myself much that I can reach people without understanding both parts.
Our discussion the other day was completely pointless because we did not understand each other. You must admit you did not understand what I wrote and I did not understand what you wrote (at least not until much later).
Empathy is a very good trait which makes you reach far when it comes to understanding other humans. It is much about understanding how the other part is thinking, and sometimes why this person has such as strong aggression on a certain thing. Please dear brother, open up a bit and forgive me and see not someone you look upon with frustration and must humiliate (with his own arguments).
I only wished that you were not so quick at generalizing a group of people into non-Muslims on something that might as well be a sin, although it is only one sin that is unforgivable and that is not serving God alone. You are quite an expert in the Book and you ought to know that God wrote in it that good deeds weigh much heavier than bad deeds. So a few sins might be outweighed by one single good deed. Or is my interpretation of the scripture wrong there?
Is it not the intention in a person that makes him a Muslim? Is it not the struggle and determination to serve God that renders one a Muslim?
And no person is sinless, or if you are sinless please tell me. Even the projected Muhammad in Qur'an was a sinner.
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Allah's plan can clearly be found in the Quran. The fact that he created men and women as pairs to complete each other. To be able to prolong the human race, so procreation NEEDS to happen, so i am not sure what your argument is. You know full well that God intends the male to have a female as a partner it's all over the Quran in many verses. So why do you question God? That is not what we are supposed to be doing. Trying to better understand him is fine, but why are you twisting and misinterpreting his verses to fit your own personal beliefs? When you follow the Quran, you are obeying God, when you are following your own philosophies and ideas, you are satisfying your own desires above what God has intended for you as guidance.
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Salaam,
Only thing I wanted to get forth even if you wish to deem it disgusting or disobedience with homosexuality is that you ought to respect and treat your fellow gay humans well despite their weakness or else you could question your own motives as a Muslim.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
That is exactly what I was saying in my post. I don't believe God condones homosexuality. Indeed, homosexuality goes against everything that is promoted in the Koran about man and woman, pairs, etc. However, the Koran clearly states to treat people with kindness and if you don't like what they do move away from them. It does not tell us to judge others. It tells us to judge for ourselves, use our intelligence. The ultimate judge is God. Therefore, we have no right to take any action against a homosexual.
Peace,
Dawn. -
Salaam brother muslims,
No worries. We can drop the subject. There is no reason for me to prove it and it was an encouragement for your own thoughts. Just be good and put your faith in God alone.
We shall see what happens now in the future.
God bless you
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Salaam dawngorgeous,
In it is a test for those who believe. If we can be warm and friendly even with what disturbs us then we might be good Muslims.
God bless you
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No worries. We can drop the subject.
Salam
Sure, because it is clear proof that you don't read and only argues, or blind (are you?).
I have proven this so many times.
Under normal circumstances, most people would be embarrassed for this silly mistake.
Peace.
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Salaam,
And I was friendly and you are unfriendly, why? Is it something you have to prove? It only shows you are not as good as you wish to seem.
It was not because I accept your arguments but because I wanted us to reconcile but you seems to want to keep arguing. You understand not what I wrote not lately. There is no mistake to be embarrassed about and there is nothing you proved.
People like you will have problems with God at the end of days.
God bless you
Salam
Sure, because it is clear proof that you don't read and only argues, or blind (are you?).
I have proven this so many times.
Under normal circumstances, most people would be embarrassed for this silly mistake.
Peace.