Gay and Muslim?
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What is natural?
http//s12.postimg.org/x1fv1nnr1/natural.png
(cf. natural human organs vs. human/animal behaviours (issue of just or unjust) -> is natural?)
and that's why...
Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord
but most of the people do not believe
(1117)And most of the people
although you strive
are not believers
(12103)(REFER HERE)
It is "natural" for people not to believe in the Qur'an and "be unjust"; ie. "human conditions etc."
Peace all
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Peace All
I understand everyone's argument on here. I feel that some are holding on to political correctness and some are expressing their own personal feelings. Of course, God exhorts us as part of Islam to be kind and to treat folk with dignity. Believe me, I come from a land where political correctness abounds.However, remember our guide book is the Koran and if we trawl the whole of it, there are enough signs to tell us that he intended couples to be man with woman. In the beginning he made a man and a woman. He talks throughout the Koran of pairs " We created you in pairs." By all means be kind and respectful to homosexuals - the Koran to tells you to. However, don't confuse kindness with legitimacy.
If we trawl the Koran we will find enough examples not condemning homosexuality, but making it clear that God intended pairs to be male with female.
Peace
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What is natural?
http//s12.postimg.org/x1fv1nnr1/natural.png
and that's why...
Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord
but most of the people do not believe
(1117)And most of the people
although you strive
are not believers
(12103)(REFER HERE)
It is "natural" for people not to believe in the Qur'an; ie. "human conditions etc."
Peace all
Salaam muslims,
If you used your skill for something other than being arrogant and judging people it would be more useful for the spreading of the Light. I see a potential and your arguments are true although misplaced. I see a besserwism instead of a willingness to cooperate. You said it yourself that you did not want to be right, but the impression is a strong urge to prove everyone right with your own understanding of the Message. The point is as you said it yourself is not to be right but spread the Light, Peace and Prosperity, and we should start with ourselves. My old self would have hated you, but I try to see the best in each and everyone of us. We can see it as a blessing from the Lord.
We can agree that homosexuality is against the design of God and is thus incompatible with the system of God, but what we cannot agree on is whether it renders a person a Muslim or not. I would say it is many factors which determine whether a person is a Muslim and most it is within the heart of this person and whatever this person does in terms of righteousness. Perhaps, and likely, it is a sin, but many things can be considered sins and who is sinless here?
You understand the backbone of the Message, your quotes at a whole testify that, but you fall prey to conjecture on certain things such as deciding yourself who is not a Muslim without a solid backup and using sterile logic which generalizes a lot.
Please read my post with love and see it not as an attempt at throwing things at you and only argue but rather help you and all. You could be useful for future organizational attempts. We shall see what happens about that but I sense strong movements. However, what will happen I cannot foresee.
"but most of the people do not believe" - This phrase is ultimately true and this is why the small group of people who actually do believe must let down their egos and instead unite under the creed of God. It is the "ego" that is the reason why most people do not enter the gates of Heaven. I also find myself selfish at times as I am not perfect but I start to seek counsel with the Lord and reformulate myself much that I can reach people without understanding both parts.
Our discussion the other day was completely pointless because we did not understand each other. You must admit you did not understand what I wrote and I did not understand what you wrote (at least not until much later).
Empathy is a very good trait which makes you reach far when it comes to understanding other humans. It is much about understanding how the other part is thinking, and sometimes why this person has such as strong aggression on a certain thing. Please dear brother, open up a bit and forgive me and see not someone you look upon with frustration and must humiliate (with his own arguments).
I only wished that you were not so quick at generalizing a group of people into non-Muslims on something that might as well be a sin, although it is only one sin that is unforgivable and that is not serving God alone. You are quite an expert in the Book and you ought to know that God wrote in it that good deeds weigh much heavier than bad deeds. So a few sins might be outweighed by one single good deed. Or is my interpretation of the scripture wrong there?
Is it not the intention in a person that makes him a Muslim? Is it not the struggle and determination to serve God that renders one a Muslim?
And no person is sinless, or if you are sinless please tell me. Even the projected Muhammad in Qur'an was a sinner.
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Allah's plan can clearly be found in the Quran. The fact that he created men and women as pairs to complete each other. To be able to prolong the human race, so procreation NEEDS to happen, so i am not sure what your argument is. You know full well that God intends the male to have a female as a partner it's all over the Quran in many verses. So why do you question God? That is not what we are supposed to be doing. Trying to better understand him is fine, but why are you twisting and misinterpreting his verses to fit your own personal beliefs? When you follow the Quran, you are obeying God, when you are following your own philosophies and ideas, you are satisfying your own desires above what God has intended for you as guidance.
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Salaam,
Only thing I wanted to get forth even if you wish to deem it disgusting or disobedience with homosexuality is that you ought to respect and treat your fellow gay humans well despite their weakness or else you could question your own motives as a Muslim.
God bless you
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Peace Man of Faith,
That is exactly what I was saying in my post. I don't believe God condones homosexuality. Indeed, homosexuality goes against everything that is promoted in the Koran about man and woman, pairs, etc. However, the Koran clearly states to treat people with kindness and if you don't like what they do move away from them. It does not tell us to judge others. It tells us to judge for ourselves, use our intelligence. The ultimate judge is God. Therefore, we have no right to take any action against a homosexual.
Peace,
Dawn. -
Salaam brother muslims,
No worries. We can drop the subject. There is no reason for me to prove it and it was an encouragement for your own thoughts. Just be good and put your faith in God alone.
We shall see what happens now in the future.
God bless you
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Salaam dawngorgeous,
In it is a test for those who believe. If we can be warm and friendly even with what disturbs us then we might be good Muslims.
God bless you
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No worries. We can drop the subject.
Salam
Sure, because it is clear proof that you don't read and only argues, or blind (are you?).
I have proven this so many times.
Under normal circumstances, most people would be embarrassed for this silly mistake.
Peace.
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Salaam,
And I was friendly and you are unfriendly, why? Is it something you have to prove? It only shows you are not as good as you wish to seem.
It was not because I accept your arguments but because I wanted us to reconcile but you seems to want to keep arguing. You understand not what I wrote not lately. There is no mistake to be embarrassed about and there is nothing you proved.
People like you will have problems with God at the end of days.
God bless you
Salam
Sure, because it is clear proof that you don't read and only argues, or blind (are you?).
I have proven this so many times.
Under normal circumstances, most people would be embarrassed for this silly mistake.
Peace.
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Again I say that Allah did not create gay people he created people as following the natural order however some of whom have developed gay tendencies. The way you describe it is as if Allah have created people with the gays having a different set of DNA and genetic code. Sorry to say there is nothing to support your theory as no gay gene has ever been found so there are other factors that determine sexuality.
Allah is innocent of your accusations. He knows full well what type of human to create in what shape and form and what they must be able to do to procreate to keep humanity going. Allah did not slip up and create homosexuals because that would go against his plan.
Homosexuals cannot procreate naturally so how is being in a homosexual relationship natural?? Gay sex is not natural either since a man will need to use another man's back passage for sex how is it natural to use a orifice which is used to discharge excrement?? Sorry to be graphic but I need to Get the point across. There is nothing natural about that. Intact there is more chance you will catch disease, as proved by higher numbers of gay men passing on HIV. Its higher than that for straight people.
There is nothing natural about homosexuality and gay sex. Its a cause of environment, influence and learnt behaviour all of which goes towards shaping a person's sexuality. Therefore it is something more psychological and mental than physical or biological since there is nothing to support the idea thast people are born gay.
I agree with you brother that it does not continue the human race and is an unusual thing. But what you are saying...are just your opinions. Not facts. I put forward a very simple question here. Can you turn into a gay right now if I ask you to? And stop yourself from getting attracted to women?
Can you do that right now? You can't, no matter how hard you try. Now just turn things the other way...and you will understand things better.
They haven't found any straight genes either. Gay people have suffered, and continue to suffer persecution from people who do not want to think. Most gays who are persecuted WISH they were NOT gay.
But again....since you are not gay, there is no way I can make you understand what I want you to understand. God knows best.
Am I saying the Koran allows homosexual acts? Not at all. It does not, and I'm quite confident about it.
All I can conclude is that it could be a test. There are psychopaths who love violence. There are angry people who can't control their anger. There are greedy and stingy people who can't control their greed or parsimony. But they are all expected to be righteous, right?
My only point is..that God alone knows best. For you to make a sweeping judgement about gays that they choose to be this way...well, it's far too naive....as any gay will tell you. It's a struggle for me to be both gay and Muslims. There are days when I feel low. There are days when I doubt the Koran. But I'm at least very inclined to think that there IS a God.
I will probably never know the answers until my resurrection.
God bless..
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I think that physiologically and chemically there are border cases where in a person you cannot decide whether they are male or female, just as there are persons who have six fingers in one hand or siamese brothers or sisters.
That would be one case of "homosexuality" which I do not know what can be done about it. It must be a real cross to bear for the subject and it would be silly to say that that is not natural. WEverything is natural.
On the other hand, it is ridiculous to say that all "straight" people cannot feel lust for people of the same sex. Mos tpwople can feel lust for anything. Not going into it is a matter of choice. Again, perfectly natural. Now what I really find that there is something wrong is if somebody is unable to feel lust for anybody except by choice of not going there. and that is what I find let us say "unnatural" in homosexual and where I think that there is something emotional, traumatic or not, something in their conscious or unconscious experience that barrs them to feel so for persons of the other sex. The fact that today people are boxed into being this "by nature" may be preventing further investigating and finding our wherefrom starts that self-prohibition to feel attracted to the other sex.
By the side I must say that I am surprised that whereas some posters have harped that sex and marriage are two different things, because sex is sex and marriage is marriage and children and all that, when it comes to "homosexuality", then sex is over important and all that matters. How can that be, that it is not overriding for marriage, and suddenly it becomes the one thing to consider.
I am not advocating marriage for gays, because for me it is very clear that marriage is what is constituted by the coupling of male and female independently of any paper or registry and because that is sacred and the souce of life. But what I say is that if sex is not all that important, then what does it matter what anybody does in private when it is not a sacred relationship since it cannot give rise a any new life no matter what. And I am not advocating homosexual sex either. Not at all, what I am saying is that it is no match for sex between a female and a male.
I also know that some males I know who have turned to live the life of a couple with another male, have become so through a twisting of their own feeling of inability to submit to a woman. Woman gives life, males give themselves to women. That is, men submit to women. Most males, "hetero" or "homo" do nto see it that way, rather have the traditinal idea that men are in fact the leading element, but some males do realise that they are indeed the peripheral sex, and are too proud to admit to that and in order to escape something that amounts to an acknowledgement of their subservience, they ignore women. I am not saying all "homos" are so because of that, no, I am nto saying that, but I do know that some turned "homo" because of that, or because they feel that. They are nto the star of the drama of life, and rather than admit it, they set themselves aside and "above" it.
To brother Bookish
Have my heartfelt solidarity for your troubles and feelings. Life is struggle for one reason or another. What conscious people can do, the best they cand do is always question themselves, goo deep into the own hearts. Shut up the world, and dig, and dig, into their own depth in all sincerity, in all integrity. Leave out any fear, you are not in front of a judge, you are in front of the deepest understanding and love, because who created evrything is the One who knows how it works, knows you, knows your heart, in fact He lives there. Be honest, absolutely honest, but do not feel guilty. One is onlyguilty when one has done something wrong knowing that it is wrong and deliberately. Listen to your heart or to people who reason peacefully and unstrained and who are able to understand and reason. And do not poun on yourself. And open your heart. You know, the sura fatiha es the opening, Open up to the gifts of destiny, to the gifts of God. And guard yourself and your privacy.
Lust is a way to perdition, and the fact that it may be followed with the opposite sex does not make it a little bit better than if it is the same sex. It is using another person as a thing, it is lack of respect for God and for life. So lust is the sin, not the sex is the sin. Prostituting with prostitutes of the opposite sex is no less prostituting than doing it with the same sex. It is all the same using another person.
The fact that so much store is placed on males using other males, whereas they easily get away using females seems a corroboration that what is being upheld is male supremacy. Males should not be suprem with other males, that is "Unnatural" but what is the harm if they are supreme with women and use them, that is indeed "NATURAL".
Salaam
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Salaam,
Edit I changed my mind. God will take care of you.
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I think that physiologically and chemically there are border cases where in a person you cannot decide whether they are male or female, just as there are persons who have six fingers in one hand or siamese brothers or sisters.
That would be one case of "homosexuality" which I do not know what can be done about it. It must be a real cross to bear for the subject and it would be silly to say that that is not natural. WEverything is natural.
On the other hand, it is ridiculous to say that all "straight" people cannot feel lust for people of the same sex. Mos tpwople can feel lust for anything. Not going into it is a matter of choice. Again, perfectly natural. Now what I really find that there is something wrong is if somebody is unable to feel lust for anybody except by choice of not going there. and that is what I find let us say "unnatural" in homosexual and where I think that there is something emotional, traumatic or not, something in their conscious or unconscious experience that barrs them to feel so for persons of the other sex. The fact that today people are boxed into being this "by nature" may be preventing further investigating and finding our wherefrom starts that self-prohibition to feel attracted to the other sex.
By the side I must say that I am surprised that whereas some posters have harped that sex and marriage are two different things, because sex is sex and marriage is marriage and children and all that, when it comes to "homosexuality", then sex is over important and all that matters. How can that be, that it is not overriding for marriage, and suddenly it becomes the one thing to consider.
I am not advocating marriage for gays, because for me it is very clear that marriage is what is constituted by the coupling of male and female independently of any paper or registry and because that is sacred and the souce of life. But what I say is that if sex is not all that important, then what does it matter what anybody does in private when it is not a sacred relationship since it cannot give rise a any new life no matter what. And I am not advocating homosexual sex either. Not at all, what I am saying is that it is no match for sex between a female and a male.
I also know that some males I know who have turned to live the life of a couple with another male, have become so through a twisting of their own feeling of inability to submit to a woman. Woman gives life, males give themselves to women. That is, men submit to women. Most males, "hetero" or "homo" do nto see it that way, rather have the traditinal idea that men are in fact the leading element, but some males do realise that they are indeed the peripheral sex, and are too proud to admit to that and in order to escape something that amounts to an acknowledgement of their subservience, they ignore women. I am not saying all "homos" are so because of that, no, I am nto saying that, but I do know that some turned "homo" because of that, or because they feel that. They are nto the star of the drama of life, and rather than admit it, they set themselves aside and "above" it.
To brother Bookish
Have my heartfelt solidarity for your troubles and feelings. Life is struggle for one reason or another. What conscious people can do, the best they cand do is always question themselves, goo deep into the own hearts. Shut up the world, and dig, and dig, into their own depth in all sincerity, in all integrity. Leave out any fear, you are not in front of a judge, you are in front of the deepest understanding and love, because who created evrything is the One who knows how it works, knows you, knows your heart, in fact He lives there. Be honest, absolutely honest, but do not feel guilty. One is onlyguilty when one has done something wrong knowing that it is wrong and deliberately. Listen to your heart or to people who reason peacefully and unstrained and who are able to understand and reason. And do not poun on yourself. And open your heart. You know, the sura fatiha es the opening, Open up to the gifts of destiny, to the gifts of God. And guard yourself and your privacy.
Lust is a way to perdition, and the fact that it may be followed with the opposite sex does not make it a little bit better than if it is the same sex. It is using another person as a thing, it is lack of respect for God and for life. So lust is the sin, not the sex is the sin. Prostituting with prostitutes of the opposite sex is no less prostituting than doing it with the same sex. It is all the same using another person.
The fact that so much store is placed on males using other males, whereas they easily get away using females seems a corroboration that what is being upheld is male supremacy. Males should not be suprem with other males, that is "Unnatural" but what is the harm if they are supreme with women and use them, that is indeed "NATURAL".
Salaam
You are contradicting yourself all over the place there. You place Sex as being pivotal to a relationship and saying marriage and sex is the same thing. Then by your logic you should also be in support of homosexuality and gay sex, since sex is marriage and marriage is sex, then homosexuals having sex should by your reasoning be fine and dandy and ok. But then you seem to say you are not in support of homosexual sex, why? it's still sex is it not? Then therefore it is akin to a marriage is it not?
Therefore should you not be in full support of homosexuality AND Gay sex? Remember, sex is marriage, and homosexuals do indeed have sex. So therefore they are married right? This is going by your logic by the way.
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Salam
Please see for yourself how many silly statements and blank accusations from your post? hmm
All because you "don't read" before replying, and which you finally ignored or indirectly admits.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340328#msg340328
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340369#msg340369
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340372#msg340372
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340395#msg340395
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340398#msg340398
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340400#msg340400
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340448#msg340448
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340450#msg340450http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340460#msg340460
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340494#msg340494
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340496#msg340496
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340502#msg340502
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340507#msg340507
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340510#msg340510
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340515#msg340515http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340580#msg340580
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340596#msg340596
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg340600#msg340600
Amazing! )
Sure, it is always other peoples' problems and be in hell.
Peace.
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Salaam,
God will take care of you. Put your trust in Him.
God bless you
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Salaam brother,
Give it up man. I have stopped "fighting" you. Why are you so unfriendly?
See my PM. I wrote there.
God bless you