Abba or Allah

The_Chimp

Peace The _Chimp

Muhammen isn?t the only messenger. Isaiah also was one.

He use the word father.

For the conclusion leading us there. Please read my earlier posts to you

There is no Isaiah mentioned in the Quran - or even in Hadith attributed to the Prophet Muhammad .

NielsJacob

Peace The_Chimp

There is no Isaiah mentioned in the Quran - or even in Hadith attributed to the Prophet Muhammad .

But Isaiah is in the Torah.

And conserning Torah I quoted this passage earlier to you
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah

The_Chimp

Peace The_Chimp
But Isaiah is in the Torah.

And conserning Torah I quoted this passage earlier to you
546 And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, authenticating what was present with him of the Torah

Yes . . . but one cannot put much faith in the Torah . If you know a book is corrupt but do not know which bit . . . then . . .The only measure we actually have is the Quran.

Muslim sources actually do accept him . . . however I would take such extra-Quran material with a pinch of salt.

= = =

Another thing to keep in mind is that Quran does make Torah obsolete - the whole point of new revelations is to replace older ones.

NielsJacob

Peace The_Chimp

Yes . . . but one cannot put much faith in the Torah . If you know a book is corrupt but do not know which bit . . . then . . .The only measure we actually have is the Quran.

Muslim sources actually do accept him . . . however I would take such extra-Quran material with a pinch of salt.

= = =

Another thing to keep in mind is that Quran does make Torah obsolete - the whole point of new revelations is to replace older ones.

I agree that the New Testament is corrupted. But here we talking about the Torah.
When it`s said it authenticied, we shouldn?t be doubting Gods word.

You can?t just like that chose, what you like or not. And say one is more new and therefor better.
If there is any contradiction offcause we must take the newest. Due to we assume this is send to adjust the primer one.

But in this case it?s not the Question. Here the Torah on the contrary is confirmed.

Anyway, there are some doubt about which book are included in the Torah.
But we must assume its the ones present for Jesus as written in Holy Quran

The_Chimp

Peace The_Chimp

I agree that the New Testament is corrupted. But here we talking about the Torah.
When it`s said it authenticied, we shouldn?t be doubting Gods word.

You can?t just like that chose, what you like or not. And say one is more new and therefor better.
If there is any contradiction offcause we must take the newest. Due to we assume this is send to adjust the primer one.

But in this case it?s not the Question. Here the Torah on the contrary is confirmed.

Anyway, there are some doubt about which book are included in the Torah.
But we must assume its the ones present for Jesus as written in Holy Quran

Torah too is corrupt.

When its said it authenticied we shouldn?t be doubting Gods word.

Is it - and by whom?

You can?t just like that chose what you like or not. And say one is newer. If there is any contradiction offcause we must take the newest. Because we assume its send to adjust the primer one.
But in this case it?s not the posibility. Here the Torah is confirmed.

Quran is sufficient really. You can read Torah and NT as history . . . but that is about it. You might get a perspective or tow - but that is about it. What you cannot do is give the book similar status to the Quran.

NielsJacob

Peace The_Chimp

Torah too is corrupt.

Not according to HQ 5.46Quote

When its said it authenticied we shouldn?t be doubting Gods word.

Is it - and by whom?

I stated that many times. But here I try again 5.46

Quran is sufficient really. You can read Torah and NT as history . . . but that is about it. You might get a perspective or tow - but that is about it. What you cannot do is give the book similar status to the Quran.

I agree offcourse with you on your first point. Anyway its a question of believe.
But due to that, we can`t just look at The Torah as histories, when it according to the Quran (we see as sufficient) this book itself is confirmed as genuine and part of Gods messeage.

(Changed in the ending)

The_Chimp

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

Quran 546

This in no way talks about corruption of Torah!

But due to that, we can`t just look at The Torah as histories, when it according to the Quran (we see as sufficient) this book itself is sufficient

It is perfectly possible that some law which as revealed in Torah but has now been repealed. Hence - even if one accepts Torah is not corrupt . . . even then I one does not follow Torah.

Having said the above I do acknowledge that some Sunni scholars of past were of the view that if Torah/Injeeel law has not been repealed then it still applies - however even they do not really give any examples .

NielsJacob

Peace The_Chimp

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

Quran 546

This in no way talks about corruption of Torah!

Yeah thats my point.
But you was the one saing so..

It is perfectly possible that some law which as revealed in Torah but has now been repealed. Hence - even if one accepts Torah is not corrupt . . . even then I one does not follow Torah.

Having said the above I do acknowledge that some Sunni scholars of past were of the view that if Torah/Injeeel law has not been repealed then it still applies - however even they do not really give any examples .

Just shows again that God is Superior. We shouldn`t put our trust in nobody than Him.
Go to the Source go to God. We don?t need someone else to show us the way.

Anyway. The Torah mentioned in Quran is the one present at Jesus time. This hasn?t, as far as I informed, been changed like the NT

The_Chimp

Peace The_Chimp
Yeah thats my point.
But you was the one saing so..

Just shows again that God is Superior. We shouldn`t put our trust in nobody than Him.
Go to the Source go to God. We don?t need someone else to show us the way.

Anyway. The Torah mentioned in Quran is the one present at Jesus time. This hasn?t, as far as I informed, been changed like the NT

But the verse is in historical sense . . . of course Muslims believe that both books were from Allah Almighty.

The Torah mentioned in Quran is the one present at Jesus time. This hasn?t, as far as I informed, been changed like the NT

Do you covet , that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

We also know that some Jews took Ezra to be son of God - according to the Quran. Although this does not directly point to the fact that Torah was changed . . . but that Jews did deviate to that extent.

Jafar

Peace Jafar

Don?t really get you?
Are you among this choir or not.
If not Then why do you bring their views.

It relates on what do you mean by "Islam", Islam as we know today is a name for TRADITION / RELIGION invented by a bunch people in middle east region around 1200 years ago.

While the word "islam" by itself has meanings (Peacefully accept God's will) thus it's an attitude and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION.

Thus when you said "Islamic Prayer", you must make it very clear whether you're referring to a religion / tradition named Islam or attitude of islam?

It's actually much better to make it as verbose such as

"I think the so-called "Lords prayer" is in many way show the attitude of peacefully accepting God's will"
Then I will say YES I AGREE WITH YOU.
And that's also why Jesus was cited as among the best example of a muslim.
Although he is not a member of a religion named Islam or follow the tradition named Islam.

As for me I am not an exclusive member of any religion / tradition.
In a sense that I CAN be a member of any religion / tradition.

Anyway you know as well as I do, that there are not such autority here on earth to tell us what Islamic or not. My view is only my own, and I should only be judged by God.

Still looking for the possibillity that the word could have been changed )

Yes but people are still trying to claim such authority, that's why we have Imams, Clerics, Priest, Sheikh etc..

Salam / Peace

Jafar

I think in the Theory God Could create something greater. But that would again be Him selves.
So again its a defenition of Him.

Correct, if there's two or more "unlimited" then there will not be "unlimited" anymore. The two things need to have a 'border' between them, which renders them 'limited'.

You should also ponder why such question only being asked by people with cultural background of viewing God as a Person / Human. (European + Middle East) And people who didn't view God as a person / human never bothered to ask such question.

Salam / Peace

NielsJacob

Peace The_Chimp

But the verse is in historical sense . . . of course Muslims believe that both books were from Allah Almighty.

Its like we need to straiten something out.

If the Torah been autoricied, We shouldn?t questen it like you d0 ( You called it corrupt)
The Torah is historical in some way. Becaause these laws were given specific for the Jewish. In the case they been replaced. (what you also talked about) we can call them historical.
And also you can?t keep comparing these two books. Since due to Quran, one is ccorrupt dosn?t meen the otherone also is.
When Jesus mission ( among others) was to autorise The Torah. Then we cant neglect it, like you do.

Do you covet , that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

We also know that some Jews took Ezra to be son of God - according to the Quran. Although this does not directly point to the fact that Torah was changed . . . but that Jews did deviate to that extent.

You can?t blame God or The Torah that somebody disobey God. We also have this case today among readers of Quran.

PS I try to reply as sincerly as possible. Just seems that sometimes its hard to answer clearly to you claims.
Please forgive me if I have misunderstood you in anyway.
My only purpose(I think) is to try to go on the right path. And put my own believe to somekind of test.

Israfeel

This is also in the "Torah", what do you think about it?

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, ?Where are you?? (Genesis 38-9)

From this we deduce

When the day gets too hot, and God needs to cool off, He takes a stroll through His garden (!!)
Adam and Eve hid from God among the trees of the garden
God was looking for Adam and Eve, couldn't find them, so He called out "where are you guys?"

Subhan Allah! Playing hide and go seek with God in the garden. What kind of belief is this?

Is this the Torah which Allah revealed to His Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)?? Answer me honestly.

NielsJacob

Peace Jafar

It's actually much better to make it as verbose such as

"I think the so-called "Lords prayer" is in many way show the attitude of peacefully accepting God's will

Yeah you are right.

I think that the reason why I didn?t use a fraise like that, is that if we can?t use the word like Islam or islamic, it means that somebody has captured these word/meaning.
And in somehow holding them as hostage.
Should we accept that agenda?

NielsJacob

Peace Israfeel

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, Where are you? (Genesis 38-9)

When the day gets too hot, and God needs to cool off, He takes a stroll through His garden (!!)

It could be the case. ?
But actually the text doesn?t say anything about that.

Adam and Eve hid from God among the trees of the garden

Here you are correct !!

God was looking for Adam and Eve, couldn't find them, so He called out "where are you guys?"

Again you put your own thoughts into the text. It dont say anything about that he couldn?t find them.
But yes it could be the case. So if you like we can asume so.
Maybe it show us that if we want to hide from God, then we also can do so.
But it dosn?t say that God can?t find us if he want.
God call out or God look. The result is the same and what he want to do. is His own choice.

Anyway it tells me that you have to make yourselves heard if you want something from God. Dont hide yourselves

We also know that The day will come when their own tongues, hands, and feet will bear witness to everything they had done. (24.24)
So God also need or use something to speak. Its not just like we maybe think that he wont make it loud. But when he do something, he make us hear ourselves what going on.
Like on Judgementday there will be withnesses.
But why dont you question that scenary?

Is this the Torah which Allah revealed to His Prophet Moses (peace be upon him)?? Answer me honestly.

Fist I read it ( in my young age) also it seemed ridiculous to me. I think until some yeas ago I question Genesis a lot. But when I read it was authorisided by God I changed my mind.
I have to see it as true.

Its also seems that something do not to fit, that Adam and Eve send their only son away to other people. Due to the idea that they should be the first/only people on the Earth.
Maybe this can be another topic to come around.
But I think the Jewish and Christian have allready been there for some time
Anyway I think I answered as honest as I could.
So now I just waiting for your judgement