Harut and Marut
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-Elena, I have removed your giving me the 'peace' from the quote above and saved you from the adversity that i fear most. I seek for foregiveness of your sins. -
That is very strange, it reminds me the Catholics priests' 'powers'.
How could you save me from anything? What power do you think you have?I do not have any power elena. Just took you off the responsibility of your giving me the peace, by rejecting it. You will know one day people cannot give you the peace.
no no, I don't think you are proud, I understand you have your views on things. To me it is perfectly ok whatever kind of greeting, I even see your - - as greetings because if you didn't want to greet and just start talking directly, without a 'hi', you wouldn't have added those - -
Elena,
That small hyphen is to space my post in the middle. Noo greeting is meant there. I am not being hypocrite by not keeping quiet and make you think the way you take it.
Nobody says to me 'peace' or 'peace be upon you Elena' except here, I am not 'muslim' and nobody around me is, but I find that elaborated greeting very welcoming and I think it is always sincere.
Initially it will seem to be very soothening. Wish for the Best always.
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Peace be upon you Elena and Mr Fazl,
The SAYING of peace does not mean that anyone can give another PEACE. The God says to SAY this because PEACE is where we are trying to get.
Let me ask you Brother Fazl, isn't everything you post here designed for us to see a higher truth? Then why cant your greeting follow that same law?
You cannot give is WISDOM, but you talk about it, so why the difference, especially when it is written in this reading(quran) to SAY it?
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Elena and Mr Fazl
The SAYING of peace does not mean that anyone can give another PEACE.Then why such customary greeting that does not serve purpose?
The God says to SAY this because PEACE is where we are trying to get.
We are trying to get it from God. So we turn to God and turn others as well in the direction of god from whom we seek Peace. All I point out is say May God Give Us Peace! This is the best way to greet in return when others greet you from their finger typing or fixing their mouthpiece as you rightly referred your 'peace' greetings to.
Let me ask you Brother Fazl, isn't everything you post here designed for us to see a higher truth? Then why cant your greeting follow that same law?
Follow this May Allah Grant Us Peace
Not "Peace!" from your mouthpiece.You cannot give is WISDOM, but you talk about it, so why the difference, especially when it is written in this reading(quran) to SAY it?
May Allah Bestow Us With Wisdom. I believe this and never believe myself endowing others with wisdom.
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Peace be upn you Brother Fazl,
Just answer this, does the God tell us to SAY peace be upon you?
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Fazl,
Just answer this, does the God tell us to SAY peace be upon you?Shall we discuss What " SAY " is according to the Recitation? I will start with my definition
SAY means saying what you believe in your truthful heart as the Truth.
Truth does not have such qualities like doubtfulness or confusion in it but the clarity and brightness that endows us by His Leave the wisdom of origination and power of creation. SAY shall have truth in it and shall have to be shared with the truthful in the heart. They must have the boldness to speak the truth despite their life is at stake, for the sake of Allah. SAY ing the truth costs your life; yet the belief in our truthful heart that the afterlife is most rewarding shall be above all the worldly considerations. Such is a people who allah mentions as "Believers in His Signs". If ever they come to you SAY the TRUTH, that brings SALAM to them.
SAY ing SALAM means saying the truth, but fear Allah most, and, be humble and submissive to Allah while sharing the truths. Pick up the best of the explanations and march forward discarding your pride and prejudice.
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Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.006.054
When those come to thee who believe in Our signs, Say "Peace be on you".007.145
And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast of what is best thereof soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked". -
Peace be upon you,
I will start with my definition
And that is where you will finish. I wish I knew better how to explain this to you from the perspective of this reading(quran). I could explain it from Kemetic philosophy, showing you how definitions belong to Sebek and what you seek is WISDOM from Tehuti, but this is a differnt story, or is it?
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Peace be upon you,
I will start with my definitionAnd that is where you will finish. I wish I knew better how to explain this to you from the perspective of this reading(quran). I could explain it from Kemetic philosophy, showing you how definitions belong to Sebek and what you seek is WISDOM from Tehuti, but this is a differnt story, or is it?
brother idolfree,
You will have to finish with what your own wisdom allows. By speaking out the concepts from any other reading other than The Reading will not help one in any way to describe or to explain someone's original wisdom. You will be a failure in doing so, however hard you try.
With regards.
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Peace be upon you brother Fazl,
You will have to finish with what your own wisdom allows. By speaking out the concepts from any other reading other than The Reading will not help one in any way to describe or to explain someone's original wisdom. You will be a failure in doing so, however hard you try.
Well its difficult when we have CLEAR verses telling us what to SAY, but you say the complete opposite.
The God says to say "My Lord, increase my knoledge", but YOU tell us that we should reject knowledge.
The God says to SAY "Peace be upon you" , but YOU say that we should NOT say this.
Do you see why I try to show you that even those who follow the God OUTSIDE of this particular reading(quran) disagree with your understanding?
Well, I guess it ends here, You reject information from outside this reading and inside this reading, I have nothing more to say about this.
PEACE.
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"Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever."
The comprehension of the above ayat is
Malayikas are the creations by Allah who carry forward His glad tidings and warnings to the people, as criterion, in every thinking and every action they involve in. We need certain righteousness in our hearts to see the malayikas clearly. The visionary path is distinctly different from that we tread using our physical eyes. King Sulaiman is such a man with comprehension and wisdom, chosen for the prophethood.
In Sulaiman's kingdom, he followed the glad tidings of Allah and preached the same to his people. As a faithful believer in Islam, sulaiman never applied any force upon his people by way of stringent Laws in the name of Islam. Allah has made sulaiman's cabinet full of visionaries and malayikas and muslims among jinns, sothat his force was invisible, natural and wisdomful.
But the people followed not the King's admonition and prophecy, but fell to that what shaitaan breathed into their hearts, the ploy, wickedness and conjure. Babyl happened to be the capital of this wickedness. In accordance with Allah's direction, sulaiman decides in his cabinet, to choose and send the two malayikas in his cabinet, Harut and Marut who are endowed with wisdom to beat the trickeries of shaitaan sothat wisdom prevails over falsehood.
Now the two malayikas harut and marut descend on the capital of trickery, Babyl, in perfect human form. They not only preached wisdom against falsehood but also demonstrated how to out smart the sorcery of shaitan. Instead of changing their ways in the righteous path, the people of Babyl wanted to learn the wisdom only to settle score and leaned more upon their tendency to increase in their bad ways. Sensing this the malayikas warned them not to use the 'knowledge' for worse purposes admonishing them to fear Allah.
Yet, the people of Babyl learned the knowledge from the two malayikas only to misuse it. Thus the events thereafter followed their course....
May Allah Increase Us in Our Wisdom
And Comprehension.That is the first time I hear that Harut and Marut are part of Prophet Sulaiman's cabinet. Where in the Quran is it written that those two Mala'ekah were part of Sulaiman's cabinet? Can you bring the Ayah?
Taj
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That is the first time I hear that Harut and Marut are part of Prophet Sulaiman's cabinet. Where in the Quran is it written that those two Mala'ekah were part of Sulaiman's cabinet? Can you bring the Ayah?
TajTaj,
May Allah BlessIt was the comprehension of the whole Quranic context and not as you suppose that my understanding was based on a single ayat. Here is how i arrived at the conclusion
In Sura 230 adam was represented as mankind and the Jinn and Malayika were together referred to as the Malayika in general. When the Malayika, ie., the jinn and the malayikas, were asked by Allah to be of all help to man, every one submitted to Allah's command except iblis, who belonged to the 'Jinn community'. Thus malayika (jinn and malayika) were subjected to man, by allah's Grace. To protect us from shaitans and from the companions of shaitans among the jinn and men is one of their duties.
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For his sake there are (angels) following one another, before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's commandment;By Allah's commandment the malayikas have to pray for us all the time even as they are guiarding His arsh for us.
040.007
Those who bear the arsh; and those around it celebrate the praise of their Lord and believe in Him and ask protection for those who believe Our Lord! You embrace all things in mercy and knowledge; therefore grant protection to those who turn and follow Thy way, and save them from the punishment of the hell042.005
The heavens are almost rent asunder from above them and the angels celebrate the Praises of their Lord, and pray for forgiveness for those on earth033.043
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers.041.031
The malayikas say "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-The above area few of the innumerable examples studded in the whole of quran for us to get a glimpse of who the malayikas, ie., jinn and malayika are to su and wht they do for us and how ungrateful we have been that we were living unmindful of such grace Allah had bestowed upon us.
Sulaiman was mentioned in quran for he was the one who utilised the malayikas and jinns to serve His purposes, for his understanding on this subject was supreme. Whoever among the jinns that did not submit to sulaiman's command he was severe in reprimanding them, shaitans.
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We made subservient to sualiman the shaitans; every builder and diver, And others fettered in chains.If we are to follow sulaiman, all the ayats will be truly happening to us too, by the Grant of Allah. So be believers and be folowers of sulaiman in this regard haply you might know who the malayikas are and how to make full use of them. Look into this now, in the court of sulaiman were present, the malayika, jinns and the dignitaries endowed with allah's wisdom. They are the chief's of His cabinet. Here is sulaiman's addressing
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He said O chiefs! which of you can bring to me her throne before they come to me in submission?027 . 039
Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."027 . 040
Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!"Now Taj,
Apply the whole of Quran in its perfect context and read this ayat that speaks the reign of sulaiman.002 . 102
And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever."The two malayikas Harut and Marut, sent by sulaiman, were at Babyl with the Bestow of greater wisdom, than the sorcery that shaitan taught them only to show the disbelievers, "a sign from Allah" that Allah is above every one in wisdom, that they might reurn to and pay heed to sulaiman's call "Do not follow shaitan and his companions!".
Now read the comprehension that you have quoted of me, in your post.
"Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever."
The comprehension of the above ayat is
Malayikas are the creations by Allah who carry forward His glad tidings and warnings to the people, as criterion, in every thinking and every action they involve in. We need certain righteousness in our hearts to see the malayikas clearly. The visionary path is distinctly different from that we tread using our physical eyes. King Sulaiman is such a man with comprehension and wisdom, chosen for the prophethood.
In Sulaiman's kingdom, he followed the glad tidings of Allah and preached the same to his people. As a faithful believer in Islam, sulaiman never applied any force upon his people by way of stringent Laws in the name of Islam. Allah has made sulaiman's cabinet full of visionaries and malayikas and muslims among jinns, sothat his force was invisible, natural and wisdomful.
But the people followed not the King's admonition and prophecy, but fell to that what shaitaan breathed into their hearts, the ploy, wickedness and conjure. Babyl happened to be the capital of this wickedness. In accordance with Allah's direction, sulaiman decides in his cabinet, to choose and send the two malayikas in his cabinet, Harut and Marut who are endowed with wisdom to beat the trickeries of shaitaan sothat wisdom prevails over falsehood.
Now the two malayikas harut and marut descend on the capital of trickery, Babyl, in perfect human form. They not only preached wisdom against falsehood but also demonstrated how to out smart the sorcery of shaitan. Instead of changing their ways in the righteous path, the people of Babyl wanted to learn the wisdom only to settle score and leaned more upon their tendency to increase in their bad ways. Sensing this the malayikas warned them not to use the 'knowledge' for worse purposes admonishing them to fear Allah.
Yet, the people of Babyl learned the knowledge from the two malayikas only to misuse it. Thus the events thereafter followed their course....
May Allah Increase Us in Our Wisdom
And Comprehension. -
Brother idolfree
May Allah grant us Peace.Peace be upon you brother Fazl,
Well its difficult when we have CLEAR verses telling us what to SAY, but you say the complete opposite.You say everything opposite to whatever clear in the verses by resorting to the conjectures called symbolism
The God says to say "My Lord, increase my knoledge", but YOU tell us that we should reject knowledge.
You go by the literal translation of the words when it suits you. If it does not suit your discussion, you go to the extreme conjectures and distort the entire reading, making it totally impractical. When Allah says about His knowledge i.e. ultimate wisdom, you say about the human knowledge which already exists stranded on the way, needing to move further till the dooms day.
The God says to SAY "Peace be upon you" , but YOU say that we should NOT say this
.I have given explanation which you can not admit for it does not agree with your view. I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace". I am just asking you how is it possible for you to give peace. Is it completely agaisnt allah's command? For having stood my ground in Allah's way, you say that my view is against the reading.
Well, I guess it ends here, You reject information from outside this reading and inside this reading, I have nothing more to say about this.
Well, if that is all your understanding, By the Time!, I remain.
regards.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
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The God says to say "My Lord, increase my knoledge", but YOU tell us that we should reject knowledge.You go by the literal translation of the words when it suits you. If it does not suit your discussion, you go to the extreme conjectures and distort the entire reading, making it totally impractical. When Allah says about His knowledge i.e. ultimate wisdom, you say about the human knowledge which already exists stranded on the way, needing to move further till the dooms day.
Thats a LIE. I have stated MANY times that KNOWLEDGE is not the same as human thinking. Humble yourself and stop lying.
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The God says to SAY "Peace be upon you" , but YOU say that we should NOT say this
.I have given explanation which you can not admit for it does not agree with your view.
Don't water it down brother, you are telling us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God instructs with the command "QUL"(say).
I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace".
That is a LIE! Please , I beg of you, please copy and paste my statement where I have said such, if you cannot do it, then you have LIED. Humble yourself.
I am just asking you how is it possible for you to give peace. Is it completely agaisnt allah's command? For having stood my ground in Allah's way, you say that my view is against the reading.
It has been explained to you by myself and many others that the one who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE. Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
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Well, I guess it ends here, You reject information from outside this reading and inside this reading, I have nothing more to say about this.Well, if that is all your understanding, By the Time!, I remain.
Whatever way you want to phrase it brother, I just have to leave ignorance where it stands.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Thats a LIE. I have stated MANY times that KNOWLEDGE is not the same as human thinking. Humble yourself and stop lying.I have no intention to lie nor do i need to lie. Now you tell in clear terms what is knowledge and what is true knowledge. Why do you want to confuse between the lesser knowledge and true knowledge. What I say is true knowledge is with allah and that is absolute. Human knowledge is evolving constantly in accordance withthe extent of their belief and requirements. I give the term Wisdom for the true knowledge, absolute that does not require an evolution over it.
Don't water it down brother, you are telling us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God instructs with the command "QUL"(say).
Why do you say " you are telling us " when i reply only to you. EXACTLY OPPOSITE when written in bold letters does not mean what you have inferred is correct. If you've read my analysis open mindedly you would have known what I said was correct too. Unfortunately you dislike and disagree with any view deviating from that of yours.
I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace".
That is a LIE! Please , I beg of you, please copy and paste my statement where I have said such, if you cannot do it, then you have LIED. Humble yourself.
If you say so, then tell me what is wrong in my statement above that you disagree with. Read again here and tell me what is that you disagree with I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. "May Allah Grant Us all Peace". I say you cannot give peace just by wishing one "peace be upon you." When I started with a definition of the word SAY as referred to in Quran, you have not answered with your definition, never wanting to continue with any discussion. I myself feel too embarrassed to force you into it. For example Wisdom vs. knnowledge; SAY of mine vs SAY of yours etc. Tell me what is wrong about the view i have regarding "say", "Peace", "Wisdom", "knowledge" etc.
It has been explained to you by myself and many others that the one who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE. Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
Talk about you and me alone please; never include the neutral people too when you mention "many others" for there are so many who do not respond to both of us but have their own judgement as to who of us may be right.
You Say One who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE.
Brother idolfree, I ask of you, "Seek Peace" from Whom? If your answer is "From Allah alone!, then will it not be even more directly inducing others by saying May Allah Bless Us With Peace! Is this not better way? When you plant a seed, you are again saying the same thing 'you are growing peace'.
You ask Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
Yes brother. See for yourself the word "good morning" seems senseless and meaningless to yourself from the tone of yours. Then again you are bringing an example of your behaviour(greetings) on the earth to that of what you shall seek from god alone. By greeting ourselves with "Peace" we weigh the greatest reward from Allah on equal level with our greeting of 'good morning' which is meaningless and senseless.
Whatever way you want to phrase it brother, I just have to leave ignorance where it stands.
True. With an address " Whoso It May Concern "!
regards,
May Allah Bless Us With Peace. -
Peace be upon you,
I have no intention to lie nor do i need to lie
But the fact is you ARE lying, if you are not, please COPY AND PASTE the statements you claim I am making.
. Now you tell in clear terms what is knowledge and what is true knowledge
What do you mean "knowledge" and "true knowledge" ??? I know what knowledge is, thats when something is KNOWN. You can see the consistency of the symbols "KNOW" in both words. But regarding TRUE KNOWLEDGE, I have never heard that term in this reading(quran). I am aware of WISDOM which is the coming together of knowledge, the proper use of knowledge.
Why do you want to confuse between the lesser knowledge and true knowledge.
The confusion comes from you bringing false concepts not discussed in this reading(quran).
What I say is true knowledge is with allah and that is absolute.
So what you are really saying, in an unclear manner, is that you call WISDOM "true knowledge", why not just call it Wisdom so that no confusion will manifest?
Human knowledge is evolving constantly in accordance withthe extent of their belief and requirements. I give the term Wisdom for the true knowledge, absolute that does not require an evolution over it.
That causes confusion, Knowledge is knowledge, there is no higher and lower knowledge. That which you call lower knowledge is only thinking and guessing, sometimes that can even be right, but we don't rely on it.
I have it as followsThinking/guessing > Knowledge > Wisdom
Knowledge is the word for that which is KNOWN and does not evolve, like combining two hydrogens and one oxygen will give you water.
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Don't water it down brother, you are telling us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God instructs with the command "QUL"(say).Why do you say " you are telling us " when i reply only to you.
I say "US" because I have yet to see anyone agree with your understandings on "Knowledge" and "Peace". Please correct me if I am wrong.
EXACTLY OPPOSITE when written in bold letters does not mean what you have inferred is correct. If you've read my analysis open mindedly you would have known what I said was correct too. Unfortunately you dislike and disagree with any view deviating from that of yours.
Correct too?? No, incorrect and you have no evidence to back up your claim. This is why instead of providing evidence, you talk about why I said "us" or my usage of Bold lettering.
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I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace".That is a LIE! Please , I beg of you, please copy and paste my statement where I have said such, if you cannot do it, then you have LIED. Humble yourself.
If you say so
If I say so????? Did I say it, yes or no brother? I just want to see if you are able to humble yourself and admit an error. I just want to se if you are righteous enough to admit your mistake. If you cannot be righteous enough to state that you mistyped, how can we even go on with this debate?
, then tell me what is wrong in my statement above that you disagree with.
In the above statement I disagreed with your saying that I SAID "I have the power to grant peace". NO ONE here has said that, but you refuse to admit even that basic FACT.
Read again here and tell me what is that you disagree with I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. "May Allah Grant Us all Peace". I say you cannot give peace just by wishing one "peace be upon you."
Again, no one has said you can grant peace by saying PEACE BE UPON YOU. But the God told us to SAY this for a reason. The same way that TELEVISION commercials and Radio influences your mind, so does EVERY WORD that you read and hear, including the greetings of others. We help to cultivate a peaceful society when we greet each other "Peace be upon you". Imagine a society where everyone greeted the other "Aggravation and stress be upon you", do you think that will effect the society? Tell me, how do you greet people in everyday life in your community?
When I started with a definition of the word SAY as referred to in Quran, you have not answered with your definition, never wanting to continue with any discussion. I myself feel too embarrassed to force you into it. For example Wisdom vs. knnowledge; SAY of mine vs SAY of yours etc. Tell me what is wrong about the view i have regarding "say", "Peace", "Wisdom", "knowledge" etc.
I have repeatedly and clearly given you my disagreements with your position. Why are you asking me yet again to repeat it? Why are you against u ssaying "peace be upon you" when the God tells us to say that? This is the real question.
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It has been explained to you by myself and many others that the one who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE. Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?Talk about you and me alone please; never include the neutral people too when you mention "many others" for there are so many who do not respond to both of us but have their own judgement as to who of us may be right.
So far, I the ones who have spoken out have not agreed with you. Yet I will not use that as any evidence, the God's message is clear enough.
You Say One who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE.
Brother idolfree, I ask of you, "Seek Peace" from Whom? If your answer is "From Allah alone!, then will it not be even more directly inducing others by saying May Allah Bless Us With Peace! Is this not better way?
You mean BETTER than the WAY the God instructed us in verse 654?
And let me just make one thing clear that you seem to be trying to conceal, it was YOU who came here disagreeing with the greeting "Peace be upon you". I am not saying that "May the God grant us peace" is improper statement, NO. I am defending the God's instructions which tell us CLEARLY to SAY "Peace be upon you". Lets get that straight because it seems you are trying to mislead the dicsussion as if someone has said "May the God grant us peace" as illogical.
When you plant a seed, you are again saying the same thing 'you are growing peace'.
When you plant an apple tree seed, do you consider yourself as "growing" the apple tree? No, you have only planted the seed.
(3921) See you not that The God sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours...
You ask Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
Yes brother. See for yourself the word "good morning" seems senseless and meaningless to yourself from the tone of yours.
Perhaps you should stop trying to tone over the internet. I have no problem with "good morning", it plants the seed in the mind so that PERHAPS the reciever might finally understand. Its like a reminder.
I asked this before but not sure if you answered, if what is SAID to another has no effect, why is the reading recited? Why did the messenger SAY this whole message to mankind? Please answer.
Then again you are bringing an example of your behaviour(greetings) on the earth to that of what you shall seek from god alone. By greeting ourselves with "Peace" we weigh the greatest reward from Allah on equal level with our greeting of 'good morning' which is meaningless and senseless.
I leave you in Peace. I hope you will address the above questions for those following along, I will understand exactly if you choose not to.
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Peace be upon you,
I have no intention to lie nor do i need to lie
But the fact is you ARE lying, if you are not, please COPY AND PASTE the statements you claim I am making.
Can you tell me one thing please. Are you writing to make us understand your views through your words, or you want us to take merely the dictionary meanings that the words carry. For, understading makes things to be taken on different levels. If what you say is only to be understood in plain linguistic terms there is no need for lengthy discussions and counter questions and writing better answers in the next post with better wordings - all these are not necessary. If you have to say anything to my 'taking' say No! you have mistaken my view. That is it. It settles the matter. Never say I Lie. I have no intention at all and as a believer that I am, I do not have the need to lie. I strongly deny your way of dealing with discussions. If you still maintain calling me a Liar, I resign from you forever. Since you are the Most Truthful and the Best of all, I need to remind you this
053 . 032
He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore ascribe not purity unto yourselves He knows best who it is, that guards against evil.regards.
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I know what knowledge is, thats when something is KNOWN. But regarding TRUE KNOWLEDGE, I have never heard that term in this reading(quran).
What do you call the TRUTH beyond the KNOW that you KNOW NOT yet? True Knowledge? Just ponder and say because the reading is for pondering; and not to say i have not heard or read anywhere in this reading and so on. Most of your symbolism is unheard of in the reading that you KNOW very well. Knowledge is explanation, clear!
I am aware of WISDOM which is the coming together of knowledge, the proper use of knowledge.
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history sothat they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?
The confusion comes from you bringing false concepts not discussed in this reading(quran).
Concept is the reading itself. Confusion is what is going on as discussions in each one's view, for example symbolism which view is still being explained with great difficulty in different wordings and written and rewritten to himself. As I stick to the concept of the reading, not inventing symbolism to every true event and history mentioned in the reading, it is highly unlikely that I should bring uncertainty and unbecoming of you to charge that I bring in confusion.
So what you are really saying, in an unclear manner, is that you call WISDOM "true knowledge", why not just call it Wisdom so that no confusion will manifest?
If you understand wisdom over knowledge, then there is no confusion when you read the word "true knowledge". If still there is perplexity when your eyes see the word "true knowledge", you can call it wisdom. Both same! Take either of the two or both.
That causes confusion, Knowledge is knowledge, there is no higher and lower knowledge.
See the confusion is in your own level of understanding. In your statement you say, Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW which means there is much higher and above than whatever little that you know of. What do you call your knowledge now? Lesser one? or Absolute?
Knowledge is the word for that which is KNOWN and does not evolve, like combining two hydrogens and one oxygen will give you water.
No. You can call that a kind of liquid, not water. For that liquid cannot give life or create life. Water having lively qualities and its refreshening energies are not there in the liquid that you call water. Don't follow the scientific pests and repeat after them say 'liquid' and liquidate it.
I say "US" because I have yet to see anyone agree with your understandings on "Knowledge" and "Peace". Please correct me if I am wrong
.Yes. You need correction. How many have discussed this topic with US? And how far you went with me to complete this topic yourself? Please count the heads and the posts. You will laugh at yourself to have asked that question. Anyway, you want some majority to back you up or atleast claim that you have majority. Since the reading itself denounces the majority that you keep for your strong backing, I do not want to say any further to this.
Correct too?? No, incorrect and you have no evidence to back up your claim. This is why instead of providing evidence, you talk about why I said "us" or my usage of Bold lettering.
We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip. If you are interested there are many things to be found between the KNOW that you know, and that you are YET TO KNOW, regarding the term EVIDENCE. The word has very close proximity to the true knowledge, the Wisdom.
If I say so????? Did I say it, yes or no brother? I just want to see if you are able to humble yourself and admit an error. I just want to se if you are righteous enough to admit your mistake. If you cannot be righteous enough to state that you mistyped, how can we even go on with this debate?
You have taken me wrong when I said humbly "If you still maintain your stance". I am saying my views and points where is the question of admission of things that you speak about. We can go on with this debate. I see no hinderance.
In the above statement I disagreed with your saying that I SAID "I have the power to grant peace". NO ONE here has said that, but you refuse to admit even that basic FACT. We help to cultivate a peaceful society when we greet each other "Peace be upon you". Imagine a society where everyone greeted the other "Aggravation and stress be upon you", do you think that will effect the society? Tell me, how do you greet people in everyday life in your community?
Can you cultivate Peace among yourselves without His admission? Allah says no good you can reap but for His help. Then why that hypocritic word "PEACE BE UPON YOU" ? Why do not you say instead May God Give us all Peace? Is it not basic belief if you're a believer?
I have repeatedly and clearly given you my disagreements with your position. Why are you asking me yet again to repeat it? Why are you against u ssaying "peace be upon you" when the God tells us to say that? This is the real question.
Disagreement is not the end of but it clearly marks that the discussion is continuing.
You mean BETTER than the WAY the God instructed us in verse 654?
You are saying that. I only make a point and stand by it according to the reading.
And let me just make one thing clear that you seem to be trying to conceal
Your opinion is your KNOW and you are so strong that there is no further than what you KNOW. I have no say in this unless you change your attitude.
it was YOU who came here disagreeing with the greeting "Peace be upon you". I am not saying that "May the God grant us peace" is improper statement, NO.
Came where? I just came with a topic for general discussion. But you took it very personal. I do not how it went that way. there is no objection taht I make agaisnt what you have quoted above. It is puzzling to me why you keep bringing the same topic over which we agree.
I am defending the God's instructions which tell us CLEARLY to SAY "Peace be upon you".
There again! Can you give peace? Will Allah ever ask you to say or do useless things? Don't we see there is a meaning different to that of the common view, say the majority understanding to"Peace"?
When you plant an apple tree seed, do you consider yourself as "growing" the apple tree? No, you have only planted the seed.
The whole world enmasse is greeting each other from the time eternal. Where is peace here in this world? You are seeing apple trees grown everywhere without fail. But what happened to the plantation of your peace and you say that you have cultivated? You have been receiving nobel prize for peace, but is there peace? Atleast now don't you see, we change our attitude of this hypocricy of greeting with 'peace' since it has not yeilded the desired apples?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history so that they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?
Please clarify this question.
Concept is the reading itself. Confusion is what is going on as discussions in each one's view, for example symbolism which view is still being explained with great difficulty in different wordings and written and rewritten to himself. As I stick to the concept of the reading, not inventing symbolism to every true event and history mentioned in the reading, it is highly unlikely that I should bring uncertainty and unbecoming of you to charge that I bring in confusion.
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.
See the confusion is in your own level of understanding. In your statement you say, Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW which means there is much higher and above than whatever little that you know of. What do you call your knowledge now? Lesser one? or Absolute?
The error that is happening here is that "knowledge" is set out by itself, it needs to be restated as the "knowledge regarding x". This way the question can be properly answered. If we just speak of the blanket term "knowledge" , then we can never say it is absolute. So please rephrase the statement and indicate the "X " you are referring to. For example, my knowledge about water freezing at 32 degees is solid. It is wisdom to use this knowledge to keep items that need to be frozen cold, or to cool my drink, etc.
We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.
What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism? D
If you are interested there are many things to be found between the KNOW that you know, and that you are YET TO KNOW, regarding the term EVIDENCE. The word has very close proximity to the true knowledge, the Wisdom.
If there is something you know that I don't know, then say it right now, with no delay, clearly. I am listening.
Can you cultivate Peace among yourselves without His admission? Allah says no good you can reap but for His help. Then why that hypocritic word "PEACE BE UPON YOU" ? Why do not you say instead May God Give us all Peace? Is it not basic belief if you're a believer?
Let me remind you again, YOU began this by stating that it is WRONG to say what the God tells us to SAY in this reading(quran). I have no problem with the greeting "May The God give us all Peace", but I rather state it as it is stated in this reading(quran), which is "Peace be upon you". What do you make of the following verse?
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it, and they say in their minds "If only The God tortures us because (of) what we say." Enough for them Hell they roast/suffer (from) it , so how bad (is) the end/destination?
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You mean BETTER than the WAY the God instructed us in verse 654?You are saying that. I only make a point and stand by it according to the reading.
What do you mean "I am saying that"? Please translate verse 654 for me.
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I am defending the God's instructions which tell us CLEARLY to SAY "Peace be upon you".There again! Can you give peace? Will Allah ever ask you to say or do useless things? Don't we see there is a meaning different to that of the common view, say the majority understanding to"Peace"?
There is nothing useless in the SAYING of "Peace". The problem is that the SAYING is ot reaching the hearts of mankind, but does that mean we stop HAVING FAITH in what we KNOW works? How do we KNOW that what people SAY has influence once it is taken in by the subconcious? Just look at the billions of dollars spent on advertising/marketinig.
Let me ask you , do we stop reciting this message to mankind because it APPEARS to not be working?
The whole world enmasse is greeting each other from the time eternal. Where is peace here in this world? You are seeing apple trees grown everywhere without fail. But what happened to the plantation of your peace and you say that you have cultivated? You have been receiving nobel prize for peace, but is there peace? Atleast now don't you see, we change our attitude of this hypocricy of greeting with 'peace' since it has not yeilded the desired apples?
So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
On another thread you wrote
as malayikas capture his mind and soul, is to be greeted with "Salamun Alaikkum - May Peace Be Upon You"
Do "malaika" have power to grant peace? You stated that none but the God has the power to do so? Please explain.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
On another thread you wrote
as malayikas capture his mind and soul, is to be greeted with "Salamun Alaikkum - May Peace Be Upon You"
Do "malaika" have power to grant peace? You stated that none but the God has the power to do so? Please explain.
None but Allah can grant peace. Malayikas have no power. Malayikas only deliver the greeting from Allah "peace be upon you" on capturing the good minds and soul.
Thanks for asking.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Please be sure not to miss my post before the one you responded to.
None but Allah can grant peace. Malayikas have no power. Malayikas only deliver the greeting from Allah "peace be upon you" on capturing the good minds and soul.
So when the human says "peace be upon you", why do you not also claim that it is a greeting from the God? Doesn't all good come from the God? Isn't the message of teh messenger the message of the God and his malaika? Please elaborate and again do not forget about the previous post.