Harut and Marut
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That is the first time I hear that Harut and Marut are part of Prophet Sulaiman's cabinet. Where in the Quran is it written that those two Mala'ekah were part of Sulaiman's cabinet? Can you bring the Ayah?
TajTaj,
May Allah BlessIt was the comprehension of the whole Quranic context and not as you suppose that my understanding was based on a single ayat. Here is how i arrived at the conclusion
In Sura 230 adam was represented as mankind and the Jinn and Malayika were together referred to as the Malayika in general. When the Malayika, ie., the jinn and the malayikas, were asked by Allah to be of all help to man, every one submitted to Allah's command except iblis, who belonged to the 'Jinn community'. Thus malayika (jinn and malayika) were subjected to man, by allah's Grace. To protect us from shaitans and from the companions of shaitans among the jinn and men is one of their duties.
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For his sake there are (angels) following one another, before him and behind him, who guard him by Allah's commandment;By Allah's commandment the malayikas have to pray for us all the time even as they are guiarding His arsh for us.
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Those who bear the arsh; and those around it celebrate the praise of their Lord and believe in Him and ask protection for those who believe Our Lord! You embrace all things in mercy and knowledge; therefore grant protection to those who turn and follow Thy way, and save them from the punishment of the hell042.005
The heavens are almost rent asunder from above them and the angels celebrate the Praises of their Lord, and pray for forgiveness for those on earth033.043
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers.041.031
The malayikas say "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-The above area few of the innumerable examples studded in the whole of quran for us to get a glimpse of who the malayikas, ie., jinn and malayika are to su and wht they do for us and how ungrateful we have been that we were living unmindful of such grace Allah had bestowed upon us.
Sulaiman was mentioned in quran for he was the one who utilised the malayikas and jinns to serve His purposes, for his understanding on this subject was supreme. Whoever among the jinns that did not submit to sulaiman's command he was severe in reprimanding them, shaitans.
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We made subservient to sualiman the shaitans; every builder and diver, And others fettered in chains.If we are to follow sulaiman, all the ayats will be truly happening to us too, by the Grant of Allah. So be believers and be folowers of sulaiman in this regard haply you might know who the malayikas are and how to make full use of them. Look into this now, in the court of sulaiman were present, the malayika, jinns and the dignitaries endowed with allah's wisdom. They are the chief's of His cabinet. Here is sulaiman's addressing
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He said O chiefs! which of you can bring to me her throne before they come to me in submission?027 . 039
Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."027 . 040
Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!"Now Taj,
Apply the whole of Quran in its perfect context and read this ayat that speaks the reign of sulaiman.002 . 102
And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever."The two malayikas Harut and Marut, sent by sulaiman, were at Babyl with the Bestow of greater wisdom, than the sorcery that shaitan taught them only to show the disbelievers, "a sign from Allah" that Allah is above every one in wisdom, that they might reurn to and pay heed to sulaiman's call "Do not follow shaitan and his companions!".
Now read the comprehension that you have quoted of me, in your post.
"Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, "Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever."
The comprehension of the above ayat is
Malayikas are the creations by Allah who carry forward His glad tidings and warnings to the people, as criterion, in every thinking and every action they involve in. We need certain righteousness in our hearts to see the malayikas clearly. The visionary path is distinctly different from that we tread using our physical eyes. King Sulaiman is such a man with comprehension and wisdom, chosen for the prophethood.
In Sulaiman's kingdom, he followed the glad tidings of Allah and preached the same to his people. As a faithful believer in Islam, sulaiman never applied any force upon his people by way of stringent Laws in the name of Islam. Allah has made sulaiman's cabinet full of visionaries and malayikas and muslims among jinns, sothat his force was invisible, natural and wisdomful.
But the people followed not the King's admonition and prophecy, but fell to that what shaitaan breathed into their hearts, the ploy, wickedness and conjure. Babyl happened to be the capital of this wickedness. In accordance with Allah's direction, sulaiman decides in his cabinet, to choose and send the two malayikas in his cabinet, Harut and Marut who are endowed with wisdom to beat the trickeries of shaitaan sothat wisdom prevails over falsehood.
Now the two malayikas harut and marut descend on the capital of trickery, Babyl, in perfect human form. They not only preached wisdom against falsehood but also demonstrated how to out smart the sorcery of shaitan. Instead of changing their ways in the righteous path, the people of Babyl wanted to learn the wisdom only to settle score and leaned more upon their tendency to increase in their bad ways. Sensing this the malayikas warned them not to use the 'knowledge' for worse purposes admonishing them to fear Allah.
Yet, the people of Babyl learned the knowledge from the two malayikas only to misuse it. Thus the events thereafter followed their course....
May Allah Increase Us in Our Wisdom
And Comprehension. -
Brother idolfree
May Allah grant us Peace.Peace be upon you brother Fazl,
Well its difficult when we have CLEAR verses telling us what to SAY, but you say the complete opposite.You say everything opposite to whatever clear in the verses by resorting to the conjectures called symbolism
The God says to say "My Lord, increase my knoledge", but YOU tell us that we should reject knowledge.
You go by the literal translation of the words when it suits you. If it does not suit your discussion, you go to the extreme conjectures and distort the entire reading, making it totally impractical. When Allah says about His knowledge i.e. ultimate wisdom, you say about the human knowledge which already exists stranded on the way, needing to move further till the dooms day.
The God says to SAY "Peace be upon you" , but YOU say that we should NOT say this
.I have given explanation which you can not admit for it does not agree with your view. I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace". I am just asking you how is it possible for you to give peace. Is it completely agaisnt allah's command? For having stood my ground in Allah's way, you say that my view is against the reading.
Well, I guess it ends here, You reject information from outside this reading and inside this reading, I have nothing more to say about this.
Well, if that is all your understanding, By the Time!, I remain.
regards.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
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The God says to say "My Lord, increase my knoledge", but YOU tell us that we should reject knowledge.You go by the literal translation of the words when it suits you. If it does not suit your discussion, you go to the extreme conjectures and distort the entire reading, making it totally impractical. When Allah says about His knowledge i.e. ultimate wisdom, you say about the human knowledge which already exists stranded on the way, needing to move further till the dooms day.
Thats a LIE. I have stated MANY times that KNOWLEDGE is not the same as human thinking. Humble yourself and stop lying.
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The God says to SAY "Peace be upon you" , but YOU say that we should NOT say this
.I have given explanation which you can not admit for it does not agree with your view.
Don't water it down brother, you are telling us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God instructs with the command "QUL"(say).
I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace".
That is a LIE! Please , I beg of you, please copy and paste my statement where I have said such, if you cannot do it, then you have LIED. Humble yourself.
I am just asking you how is it possible for you to give peace. Is it completely agaisnt allah's command? For having stood my ground in Allah's way, you say that my view is against the reading.
It has been explained to you by myself and many others that the one who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE. Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
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Well, I guess it ends here, You reject information from outside this reading and inside this reading, I have nothing more to say about this.Well, if that is all your understanding, By the Time!, I remain.
Whatever way you want to phrase it brother, I just have to leave ignorance where it stands.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Thats a LIE. I have stated MANY times that KNOWLEDGE is not the same as human thinking. Humble yourself and stop lying.I have no intention to lie nor do i need to lie. Now you tell in clear terms what is knowledge and what is true knowledge. Why do you want to confuse between the lesser knowledge and true knowledge. What I say is true knowledge is with allah and that is absolute. Human knowledge is evolving constantly in accordance withthe extent of their belief and requirements. I give the term Wisdom for the true knowledge, absolute that does not require an evolution over it.
Don't water it down brother, you are telling us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God instructs with the command "QUL"(say).
Why do you say " you are telling us " when i reply only to you. EXACTLY OPPOSITE when written in bold letters does not mean what you have inferred is correct. If you've read my analysis open mindedly you would have known what I said was correct too. Unfortunately you dislike and disagree with any view deviating from that of yours.
I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace".
That is a LIE! Please , I beg of you, please copy and paste my statement where I have said such, if you cannot do it, then you have LIED. Humble yourself.
If you say so, then tell me what is wrong in my statement above that you disagree with. Read again here and tell me what is that you disagree with I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. "May Allah Grant Us all Peace". I say you cannot give peace just by wishing one "peace be upon you." When I started with a definition of the word SAY as referred to in Quran, you have not answered with your definition, never wanting to continue with any discussion. I myself feel too embarrassed to force you into it. For example Wisdom vs. knnowledge; SAY of mine vs SAY of yours etc. Tell me what is wrong about the view i have regarding "say", "Peace", "Wisdom", "knowledge" etc.
It has been explained to you by myself and many others that the one who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE. Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
Talk about you and me alone please; never include the neutral people too when you mention "many others" for there are so many who do not respond to both of us but have their own judgement as to who of us may be right.
You Say One who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE.
Brother idolfree, I ask of you, "Seek Peace" from Whom? If your answer is "From Allah alone!, then will it not be even more directly inducing others by saying May Allah Bless Us With Peace! Is this not better way? When you plant a seed, you are again saying the same thing 'you are growing peace'.
You ask Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
Yes brother. See for yourself the word "good morning" seems senseless and meaningless to yourself from the tone of yours. Then again you are bringing an example of your behaviour(greetings) on the earth to that of what you shall seek from god alone. By greeting ourselves with "Peace" we weigh the greatest reward from Allah on equal level with our greeting of 'good morning' which is meaningless and senseless.
Whatever way you want to phrase it brother, I just have to leave ignorance where it stands.
True. With an address " Whoso It May Concern "!
regards,
May Allah Bless Us With Peace. -
Peace be upon you,
I have no intention to lie nor do i need to lie
But the fact is you ARE lying, if you are not, please COPY AND PASTE the statements you claim I am making.
. Now you tell in clear terms what is knowledge and what is true knowledge
What do you mean "knowledge" and "true knowledge" ??? I know what knowledge is, thats when something is KNOWN. You can see the consistency of the symbols "KNOW" in both words. But regarding TRUE KNOWLEDGE, I have never heard that term in this reading(quran). I am aware of WISDOM which is the coming together of knowledge, the proper use of knowledge.
Why do you want to confuse between the lesser knowledge and true knowledge.
The confusion comes from you bringing false concepts not discussed in this reading(quran).
What I say is true knowledge is with allah and that is absolute.
So what you are really saying, in an unclear manner, is that you call WISDOM "true knowledge", why not just call it Wisdom so that no confusion will manifest?
Human knowledge is evolving constantly in accordance withthe extent of their belief and requirements. I give the term Wisdom for the true knowledge, absolute that does not require an evolution over it.
That causes confusion, Knowledge is knowledge, there is no higher and lower knowledge. That which you call lower knowledge is only thinking and guessing, sometimes that can even be right, but we don't rely on it.
I have it as followsThinking/guessing > Knowledge > Wisdom
Knowledge is the word for that which is KNOWN and does not evolve, like combining two hydrogens and one oxygen will give you water.
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Don't water it down brother, you are telling us the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the God instructs with the command "QUL"(say).Why do you say " you are telling us " when i reply only to you.
I say "US" because I have yet to see anyone agree with your understandings on "Knowledge" and "Peace". Please correct me if I am wrong.
EXACTLY OPPOSITE when written in bold letters does not mean what you have inferred is correct. If you've read my analysis open mindedly you would have known what I said was correct too. Unfortunately you dislike and disagree with any view deviating from that of yours.
Correct too?? No, incorrect and you have no evidence to back up your claim. This is why instead of providing evidence, you talk about why I said "us" or my usage of Bold lettering.
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I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. You say you have the powers to grant peace rejecting the saying thus "May Allah Grant Us all Peace".That is a LIE! Please , I beg of you, please copy and paste my statement where I have said such, if you cannot do it, then you have LIED. Humble yourself.
If you say so
If I say so????? Did I say it, yes or no brother? I just want to see if you are able to humble yourself and admit an error. I just want to se if you are righteous enough to admit your mistake. If you cannot be righteous enough to state that you mistyped, how can we even go on with this debate?
, then tell me what is wrong in my statement above that you disagree with.
In the above statement I disagreed with your saying that I SAID "I have the power to grant peace". NO ONE here has said that, but you refuse to admit even that basic FACT.
Read again here and tell me what is that you disagree with I say seek peace from Allah and advice you of the same. "May Allah Grant Us all Peace". I say you cannot give peace just by wishing one "peace be upon you."
Again, no one has said you can grant peace by saying PEACE BE UPON YOU. But the God told us to SAY this for a reason. The same way that TELEVISION commercials and Radio influences your mind, so does EVERY WORD that you read and hear, including the greetings of others. We help to cultivate a peaceful society when we greet each other "Peace be upon you". Imagine a society where everyone greeted the other "Aggravation and stress be upon you", do you think that will effect the society? Tell me, how do you greet people in everyday life in your community?
When I started with a definition of the word SAY as referred to in Quran, you have not answered with your definition, never wanting to continue with any discussion. I myself feel too embarrassed to force you into it. For example Wisdom vs. knnowledge; SAY of mine vs SAY of yours etc. Tell me what is wrong about the view i have regarding "say", "Peace", "Wisdom", "knowledge" etc.
I have repeatedly and clearly given you my disagreements with your position. Why are you asking me yet again to repeat it? Why are you against u ssaying "peace be upon you" when the God tells us to say that? This is the real question.
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It has been explained to you by myself and many others that the one who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE. Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?Talk about you and me alone please; never include the neutral people too when you mention "many others" for there are so many who do not respond to both of us but have their own judgement as to who of us may be right.
So far, I the ones who have spoken out have not agreed with you. Yet I will not use that as any evidence, the God's message is clear enough.
You Say One who greets with "peace" is NOT giving peace to anyone, they are planting seeds in the mind of the other to seek PEACE.
Brother idolfree, I ask of you, "Seek Peace" from Whom? If your answer is "From Allah alone!, then will it not be even more directly inducing others by saying May Allah Bless Us With Peace! Is this not better way?
You mean BETTER than the WAY the God instructed us in verse 654?
And let me just make one thing clear that you seem to be trying to conceal, it was YOU who came here disagreeing with the greeting "Peace be upon you". I am not saying that "May the God grant us peace" is improper statement, NO. I am defending the God's instructions which tell us CLEARLY to SAY "Peace be upon you". Lets get that straight because it seems you are trying to mislead the dicsussion as if someone has said "May the God grant us peace" as illogical.
When you plant a seed, you are again saying the same thing 'you are growing peace'.
When you plant an apple tree seed, do you consider yourself as "growing" the apple tree? No, you have only planted the seed.
(3921) See you not that The God sends down rain from the sky, and leads it through springs in the earth? Then He causes to grow, therewith, produce of various colours...
You ask Do you say "good morning" to people thinking that you have the power to make thier morning "good"?
Yes brother. See for yourself the word "good morning" seems senseless and meaningless to yourself from the tone of yours.
Perhaps you should stop trying to tone over the internet. I have no problem with "good morning", it plants the seed in the mind so that PERHAPS the reciever might finally understand. Its like a reminder.
I asked this before but not sure if you answered, if what is SAID to another has no effect, why is the reading recited? Why did the messenger SAY this whole message to mankind? Please answer.
Then again you are bringing an example of your behaviour(greetings) on the earth to that of what you shall seek from god alone. By greeting ourselves with "Peace" we weigh the greatest reward from Allah on equal level with our greeting of 'good morning' which is meaningless and senseless.
I leave you in Peace. I hope you will address the above questions for those following along, I will understand exactly if you choose not to.
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Peace be upon you,
I have no intention to lie nor do i need to lie
But the fact is you ARE lying, if you are not, please COPY AND PASTE the statements you claim I am making.
Can you tell me one thing please. Are you writing to make us understand your views through your words, or you want us to take merely the dictionary meanings that the words carry. For, understading makes things to be taken on different levels. If what you say is only to be understood in plain linguistic terms there is no need for lengthy discussions and counter questions and writing better answers in the next post with better wordings - all these are not necessary. If you have to say anything to my 'taking' say No! you have mistaken my view. That is it. It settles the matter. Never say I Lie. I have no intention at all and as a believer that I am, I do not have the need to lie. I strongly deny your way of dealing with discussions. If you still maintain calling me a Liar, I resign from you forever. Since you are the Most Truthful and the Best of all, I need to remind you this
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He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore ascribe not purity unto yourselves He knows best who it is, that guards against evil.regards.
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I know what knowledge is, thats when something is KNOWN. But regarding TRUE KNOWLEDGE, I have never heard that term in this reading(quran).
What do you call the TRUTH beyond the KNOW that you KNOW NOT yet? True Knowledge? Just ponder and say because the reading is for pondering; and not to say i have not heard or read anywhere in this reading and so on. Most of your symbolism is unheard of in the reading that you KNOW very well. Knowledge is explanation, clear!
I am aware of WISDOM which is the coming together of knowledge, the proper use of knowledge.
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history sothat they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?
The confusion comes from you bringing false concepts not discussed in this reading(quran).
Concept is the reading itself. Confusion is what is going on as discussions in each one's view, for example symbolism which view is still being explained with great difficulty in different wordings and written and rewritten to himself. As I stick to the concept of the reading, not inventing symbolism to every true event and history mentioned in the reading, it is highly unlikely that I should bring uncertainty and unbecoming of you to charge that I bring in confusion.
So what you are really saying, in an unclear manner, is that you call WISDOM "true knowledge", why not just call it Wisdom so that no confusion will manifest?
If you understand wisdom over knowledge, then there is no confusion when you read the word "true knowledge". If still there is perplexity when your eyes see the word "true knowledge", you can call it wisdom. Both same! Take either of the two or both.
That causes confusion, Knowledge is knowledge, there is no higher and lower knowledge.
See the confusion is in your own level of understanding. In your statement you say, Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW which means there is much higher and above than whatever little that you know of. What do you call your knowledge now? Lesser one? or Absolute?
Knowledge is the word for that which is KNOWN and does not evolve, like combining two hydrogens and one oxygen will give you water.
No. You can call that a kind of liquid, not water. For that liquid cannot give life or create life. Water having lively qualities and its refreshening energies are not there in the liquid that you call water. Don't follow the scientific pests and repeat after them say 'liquid' and liquidate it.
I say "US" because I have yet to see anyone agree with your understandings on "Knowledge" and "Peace". Please correct me if I am wrong
.Yes. You need correction. How many have discussed this topic with US? And how far you went with me to complete this topic yourself? Please count the heads and the posts. You will laugh at yourself to have asked that question. Anyway, you want some majority to back you up or atleast claim that you have majority. Since the reading itself denounces the majority that you keep for your strong backing, I do not want to say any further to this.
Correct too?? No, incorrect and you have no evidence to back up your claim. This is why instead of providing evidence, you talk about why I said "us" or my usage of Bold lettering.
We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip. If you are interested there are many things to be found between the KNOW that you know, and that you are YET TO KNOW, regarding the term EVIDENCE. The word has very close proximity to the true knowledge, the Wisdom.
If I say so????? Did I say it, yes or no brother? I just want to see if you are able to humble yourself and admit an error. I just want to se if you are righteous enough to admit your mistake. If you cannot be righteous enough to state that you mistyped, how can we even go on with this debate?
You have taken me wrong when I said humbly "If you still maintain your stance". I am saying my views and points where is the question of admission of things that you speak about. We can go on with this debate. I see no hinderance.
In the above statement I disagreed with your saying that I SAID "I have the power to grant peace". NO ONE here has said that, but you refuse to admit even that basic FACT. We help to cultivate a peaceful society when we greet each other "Peace be upon you". Imagine a society where everyone greeted the other "Aggravation and stress be upon you", do you think that will effect the society? Tell me, how do you greet people in everyday life in your community?
Can you cultivate Peace among yourselves without His admission? Allah says no good you can reap but for His help. Then why that hypocritic word "PEACE BE UPON YOU" ? Why do not you say instead May God Give us all Peace? Is it not basic belief if you're a believer?
I have repeatedly and clearly given you my disagreements with your position. Why are you asking me yet again to repeat it? Why are you against u ssaying "peace be upon you" when the God tells us to say that? This is the real question.
Disagreement is not the end of but it clearly marks that the discussion is continuing.
You mean BETTER than the WAY the God instructed us in verse 654?
You are saying that. I only make a point and stand by it according to the reading.
And let me just make one thing clear that you seem to be trying to conceal
Your opinion is your KNOW and you are so strong that there is no further than what you KNOW. I have no say in this unless you change your attitude.
it was YOU who came here disagreeing with the greeting "Peace be upon you". I am not saying that "May the God grant us peace" is improper statement, NO.
Came where? I just came with a topic for general discussion. But you took it very personal. I do not how it went that way. there is no objection taht I make agaisnt what you have quoted above. It is puzzling to me why you keep bringing the same topic over which we agree.
I am defending the God's instructions which tell us CLEARLY to SAY "Peace be upon you".
There again! Can you give peace? Will Allah ever ask you to say or do useless things? Don't we see there is a meaning different to that of the common view, say the majority understanding to"Peace"?
When you plant an apple tree seed, do you consider yourself as "growing" the apple tree? No, you have only planted the seed.
The whole world enmasse is greeting each other from the time eternal. Where is peace here in this world? You are seeing apple trees grown everywhere without fail. But what happened to the plantation of your peace and you say that you have cultivated? You have been receiving nobel prize for peace, but is there peace? Atleast now don't you see, we change our attitude of this hypocricy of greeting with 'peace' since it has not yeilded the desired apples?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history so that they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?
Please clarify this question.
Concept is the reading itself. Confusion is what is going on as discussions in each one's view, for example symbolism which view is still being explained with great difficulty in different wordings and written and rewritten to himself. As I stick to the concept of the reading, not inventing symbolism to every true event and history mentioned in the reading, it is highly unlikely that I should bring uncertainty and unbecoming of you to charge that I bring in confusion.
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.
See the confusion is in your own level of understanding. In your statement you say, Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW which means there is much higher and above than whatever little that you know of. What do you call your knowledge now? Lesser one? or Absolute?
The error that is happening here is that "knowledge" is set out by itself, it needs to be restated as the "knowledge regarding x". This way the question can be properly answered. If we just speak of the blanket term "knowledge" , then we can never say it is absolute. So please rephrase the statement and indicate the "X " you are referring to. For example, my knowledge about water freezing at 32 degees is solid. It is wisdom to use this knowledge to keep items that need to be frozen cold, or to cool my drink, etc.
We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.
What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism? D
If you are interested there are many things to be found between the KNOW that you know, and that you are YET TO KNOW, regarding the term EVIDENCE. The word has very close proximity to the true knowledge, the Wisdom.
If there is something you know that I don't know, then say it right now, with no delay, clearly. I am listening.
Can you cultivate Peace among yourselves without His admission? Allah says no good you can reap but for His help. Then why that hypocritic word "PEACE BE UPON YOU" ? Why do not you say instead May God Give us all Peace? Is it not basic belief if you're a believer?
Let me remind you again, YOU began this by stating that it is WRONG to say what the God tells us to SAY in this reading(quran). I have no problem with the greeting "May The God give us all Peace", but I rather state it as it is stated in this reading(quran), which is "Peace be upon you". What do you make of the following verse?
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it, and they say in their minds "If only The God tortures us because (of) what we say." Enough for them Hell they roast/suffer (from) it , so how bad (is) the end/destination?
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You mean BETTER than the WAY the God instructed us in verse 654?You are saying that. I only make a point and stand by it according to the reading.
What do you mean "I am saying that"? Please translate verse 654 for me.
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I am defending the God's instructions which tell us CLEARLY to SAY "Peace be upon you".There again! Can you give peace? Will Allah ever ask you to say or do useless things? Don't we see there is a meaning different to that of the common view, say the majority understanding to"Peace"?
There is nothing useless in the SAYING of "Peace". The problem is that the SAYING is ot reaching the hearts of mankind, but does that mean we stop HAVING FAITH in what we KNOW works? How do we KNOW that what people SAY has influence once it is taken in by the subconcious? Just look at the billions of dollars spent on advertising/marketinig.
Let me ask you , do we stop reciting this message to mankind because it APPEARS to not be working?
The whole world enmasse is greeting each other from the time eternal. Where is peace here in this world? You are seeing apple trees grown everywhere without fail. But what happened to the plantation of your peace and you say that you have cultivated? You have been receiving nobel prize for peace, but is there peace? Atleast now don't you see, we change our attitude of this hypocricy of greeting with 'peace' since it has not yeilded the desired apples?
So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
On another thread you wrote
as malayikas capture his mind and soul, is to be greeted with "Salamun Alaikkum - May Peace Be Upon You"
Do "malaika" have power to grant peace? You stated that none but the God has the power to do so? Please explain.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
On another thread you wrote
as malayikas capture his mind and soul, is to be greeted with "Salamun Alaikkum - May Peace Be Upon You"
Do "malaika" have power to grant peace? You stated that none but the God has the power to do so? Please explain.
None but Allah can grant peace. Malayikas have no power. Malayikas only deliver the greeting from Allah "peace be upon you" on capturing the good minds and soul.
Thanks for asking.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Please be sure not to miss my post before the one you responded to.
None but Allah can grant peace. Malayikas have no power. Malayikas only deliver the greeting from Allah "peace be upon you" on capturing the good minds and soul.
So when the human says "peace be upon you", why do you not also claim that it is a greeting from the God? Doesn't all good come from the God? Isn't the message of teh messenger the message of the God and his malaika? Please elaborate and again do not forget about the previous post.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history so that they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?
Please clarify this question.
Now I think the question and answer are to be clarified together. You cannot properly apply your knowledge to attain wisdom is the answer. Knowledge and wisdom are far apart and face the opposite directions.
Concept is the reading itself. Confusion is what is going on as discussions in each one's view, for example symbolism which view is still being explained with great difficulty in different wordings and written and rewritten to himself. As I stick to the concept of the reading, not inventing symbolism to every true event and history mentioned in the reading, it is highly unlikely that I should bring uncertainty and unbecoming of you to charge that I bring in confusion.
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.
The unstable society for the sea is confusion and many more you yourself had admitted the symbolism were not being arrived at; you 're working on them and so on. The symbolism you gave for musa was another one.Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.
See the confusion is in your own level of understanding. In your statement you say, Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW which means there is much higher and above than whatever little that you know of. What do you call your knowledge now? Lesser one? or Absolute?
The error that is happening here is that "knowledge" is set out by itself, it needs to be restated as the "knowledge regarding x". This way the question can be properly answered. If we just speak of the blanket term "knowledge" , then we can never say it is absolute. So please rephrase the statement and indicate the "X " you are referring to. For example, my knowledge about water freezing at 32 degees is solid. It is wisdom to use this knowledge to keep items that need to be frozen cold, or to cool my drink, etc.
You are trying your best to give a different idea here, yet if you see in my quote given above in italics Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW - it has your desired indicator x inherent in it. Regarding your 32 degrees, i am not prepared to deal that here because this is a reply to the already spoken subject.
We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.
What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism?
No! Ordinary exchange of speech amongst us. It was not from the reading, to remind you. You are in confusion as to identify between what is from the reading and what is humanly spoken.
If you are interested there are many things to be found between the KNOW that you know, and that you are YET TO KNOW, regarding the term EVIDENCE. The word has very close proximity to the true knowledge, the Wisdom.
If there is something you know that I don't know, then say it right now, with no delay, clearly. I am listening
.In this mess? No. Take it as a subject clear from this and make it exclusive, in just the same way as you started Wisdom vs. knowledge.
Let me remind you again, YOU began this by stating that it is WRONG to say what the God tells us to SAY in this reading(quran).
Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading. I remind you, it is the reading. You have to get the quran as explanation only from Him through the purification at heart. It is wrong to asume the reading is quran. No wonder you have taken the term SAY so literally, sothat you think you are commanded to SAY to others Peace instead of invoking God for peace.
I have no problem with the greeting "May The God give us all Peace", but I rather state it as it is stated in this reading(quran), which is "Peace be upon you". What do you make of the following verse?
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it,
We must be mindful when we use Peace here in every post greeting each other and fear Allah for Allah alone can grant us peace.
And they( the rejecters) say in their minds "If only The God tortures us because what we say." Enough for them Hell they suffer it , so how bad the end?
The above is self explanatory.
Let me ask you , do we stop reciting this message to mankind because it APPEARS to not be working?
Not appears 'not to be working'. It is not and it cannot be working. Saying 'peace' does not produce peace except that when He delivers it. so recite more to get at the truth. It is very fortunate you have not started so far the symbolism for 'peace'.
So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.
The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Fazl
Can you refer here "a proper use of knowledge used thus far" by any individual in the world history so that they had attained the wisdom with no negative effects in it?Me
Please clarify this question.Fazl
Now I think the question and answer are to be clarified together. You cannot properly apply your knowledge to attain wisdom is the answer. Knowledge and wisdom are far apart and face the opposite directions.I asked you to clarify the question and you did not even ask any question in your response, much less clarify anything.
Me
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.The unstable society for the sea is confusion
What exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.
and many more you yourself had admitted the symbolism were not being arrived at; you 're working on them and so on.
If I am working on understanding certain ones, then I have stated so. But in regards to large water representing "non stability" I am done with that one. Is there some error you see with that?
Also, you stated in another thread that "kitaab" means peaceful heart. My questin is , how do you arrive at that conclusion. I can show you clearly how I arrive at my conclusions, but you have yet to explain this one.
The symbolism you gave for musa was another one
Please be more specific brother. What is it about the symbolism of Musa that you find to be confused?
Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.
Why does it not fit into one's logic? What does it mean to you that Noah's son sought refuge from the flood from some mountain? How do you apply that vers to life?
The error that is happening here is that "knowledge" is set out by itself, it needs to be restated as the "knowledge regarding x". This way the question can be properly answered. If we just speak of the blanket term "knowledge" , then we can never say it is absolute. So please rephrase the statement and indicate the "X " you are referring to. For example, my knowledge about water freezing at 32 degees is solid. It is wisdom to use this knowledge to keep items that need to be frozen cold, or to cool my drink, etc.
You are trying your best to give a different idea here, yet if you see in my quote given above in italics Knowledge is not knowledge but what you KNOW - it has your desired indicator x inherent in it. Regarding your 32 degrees, i am not prepared to deal that here because this is a reply to the already spoken subject.
You are not giving any proofs of anything. You are only expressing your FEELINGS.
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We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism?
No! Ordinary exchange of speech amongst us. It was not from the reading, to remind you. You are in confusion as to identify between what is from the reading and what is humanly spoken.
I see D I guess "quran" is some alien language that only you have "true" knowledge of, is that the case?
If there is something you know that I don't know, then say it right now, with no delay, clearly. I am listening
In this mess? No. Take it as a subject clear from this and make it exclusive, in just the same way as you started Wisdom vs. knowledge.
Broter, it is you who claims the ultimate true knowledge, so please start a thread of instruction that I can follow, you can call it "Lessons from Dr Fazl". I will be awaiting it.
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Let me remind you again, YOU began this by stating that it is WRONG to say what the God tells us to SAY in this reading(quran).Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading.
It is AMAZING that you just noticed this when I have done this for a LOOOONG time now. Also please pay attention to the entire phrase "THIS reading".
I remind you, it is the reading. You have to get the quran as explanation only from Him through the purification at heart. It is wrong to asume the reading is quran. No wonder you have taken the term SAY so literally, sothat you think you are commanded to SAY to others Peace instead of invoking God for peace.
Slow down, please give me your understanding of the word "quran".
I have no problem with the greeting "May The God give us all Peace", but I rather state it as it is stated in this reading(quran), which is "Peace be upon you". What do you make of the following verse?
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it,
Fazl
We must be mindful when we use Peace here in every post greeting each other and fear Allah for Allah alone can grant us peace.Should I take that as you cannot formulate a response to my question?
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And they( the rejecters) say in their minds "If only The God tortures us because what we say." Enough for them Hell they suffer it , so how bad the end?The above is self explanatory.
Please explain it.
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Let me ask you , do we stop reciting this message to mankind because it APPEARS to not be working?Not appears 'not to be working'. It is not and it cannot be working. Saying 'peace' does not produce peace except that when He delivers it. so recite more to get at the truth. It is very fortunate you have not started so far the symbolism for 'peace'.
Perhaps you did not understand my question, since the GODS MESSAGE has been recited from the beginning, do we stop SAYING this message because it is not working for the majority of mankind?
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So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
I wish you would give one clear example one day. Please explain the difference between "quran" and "reading", and give us some examples of both.
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
I asked you to clarify the question and you did not even ask any question in your response, much less clarify anything.I have given the answer straight away to a question which you either you cannot get what is exactly or that you want to elude from answering obviously. In other words see if you could refute this statement Your knowledge cannot reach up tosisdom for knowledge and wisdom are opposite to each otherin their reach. Knowledge is a test for humans while the wisdom is Grace from Allah.
Me
Please give an example of the difficulty of the symbolic explanation. Just one example.
The unstable society for the sea is confusionWhat exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.
The conceptuality itself is unclear. this we have already dealt with and I have answered elaborately; but most of the points you have not replied that which i never pursued to pressurize you to answer. now that you are bringing it up again, I want to go exclusively on this on aseparate thread. i hope you will comply.
and many more you yourself had admitted the symbolism were not being arrived at; you 're working on them and so on.
If I am working on understanding certain ones, then I have stated so. But in regards to large water representing "non stability" I am done with that one. Is there some error you see with that?
The major error is that the truth is one and the same that it paves way much more clear and broader to attain more clarity with ease than the difficulty you had in understanding the subject of quran before the invention of allegory. But you find the subject difficult to comprehend lately, even to imagine things and you are unable to stick them together. This is against the reading that wisdom of quran makes your way easier through the truth. Further, your mountain/government theory is a nonapplication and stays as a hypothesis. Your inability to make the community to believe and act is causing the failure of the concept. Whereas if you apply god's wisdom, we need not bother the community, yet you will live heavenly life even in this world even as an individual.
Also, you stated in another thread that "kitaab" means peaceful heart. My questin is , how do you arrive at that conclusion. I can show you clearly how I arrive at my conclusions, but you have yet to explain this one.
I have explained in the same thread very clearly. If you have read it already. Ask me where your problem is in understanding; I will be glad to explain you. Please be specific while asking questions.
The symbolism you gave for musa was another one
Please be more specific brother. What is it about the symbolism of Musa that you find to be confused?
How come you forget and ask again as if I have not pointed out at all in the same thread, regarding the particular question you have just asked here. You know pretty well you do not read the post fully, and you do not care to answer all points raised for want of further knowledge to explain; or to escape from being a victim through your own answers.
Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.
Why does it not fit into one's logic? What does it mean to you that Noah's son sought refuge from the flood from some mountain? How do you apply that verse to life?
The application of that verse to life is Nooh's son knows swimming and he believed in his knowledge to swim. But Nooh's wisdom is absolute and far different to the swimming knowledge of his son. His son with his knowledge could not even note the raising levels of water and since the waves have not started yet, he could not foresee due to lack of wisdom and as a believer in knowledge of world standards he was immersed by the sudden wave that intervened between him and Nooh which pulled him to the depth of the water. This is the knowledge vs. wisdom. With his knowledge he imagined his escape on top of the mountain not heeding to the call of his father's wisdom. As a result he hit the botom of the floods.The application is never believe in knowledge that the people around the world believe for thir lives. Allah's wisdom when reaches you like the tsunami, you will despair and meet the disaster, inevitable!
You are not giving any proofs of anything. You are only expressing your FEELINGS.
Feelings if true, it by itself is a proof, if you reflect.
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We must discuss what is evidence. There is a many slip between the cup and the lip.
What do you mean by "cup" and "lip"? Is that some kind of symbolism?Was it your answer to my request?
I see D I guess "quran" is some alien language that only you have "true" knowledge of, is that the case?
This is vain talk!
Broter, it is you who claims the ultimate true knowledge, so please start a thread of instruction that I can follow, you can call it "Lessons from Dr Fazl". I will be awaiting it.
You promised you will never revert back to the same mistake of making sarcastic remarks. Fear Allah! You will never heed or behave, if you don't.
Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading.
It is AMAZING that you just noticed this when I have done this for a LOOOONG time now. Also please pay attention to the entire phrase "THIS reading".
Even as you are in such a confusion, how is that you are in a sooo jooyous mood! Keep enjoying for a while, until you are serious with the quran.
Slow down, please give me your understanding of the word "quran".
Read in the thread I had started what the Book and what the quran is! the title is Are Quranites the people of the Book I think you have the habit of reading only your own statements but not the replies what others make in response to.
(58 ...and if they came to you, they greeted you with what The God does not greet you with it,
Fazl
We must be mindful when we use Peace here in every post greeting each other and fear Allah for Allah alone can grant us peace.Should I take that as you cannot formulate a response to my question?
LOL! Brother, you're in such a hurry to win over me? I do not have that kind of feeling against you, anyway. Quran is to be dealt with separately. I am with you anywhere anytime to respond to any of your question, provided the topic is separate in any section appropriate to the topic.
Since the GOD'S MESSAGE has been recited from the beginning, do we stop SAYING this message because it is not working for the majority of mankind?
Why should we stop God's message just because the majority reject?
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So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
I wish you would give one clear example one day. Please explain the difference between "quran" and "reading", and give us some examples of both.
Let us get back to the thread " Are The Quranites, the People of The Book? "
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
I have given the answer straight away to a question which you either you cannot get what is exactly or that you want to elude from answering obviously. In other words see if you could refute this statement Your knowledge cannot reach up tosisdom for knowledge and wisdom are opposite to each otherin their reach. Knowledge is a test for humans while the wisdom is Grace from Allah.
Again, we are differing with our understanding of the words. In my understanding, no, knowledge and wisdom are not opposites, knowledge brings wisdom. To me, intellect(thinking) is opposite to knowledge(knowing). Thinking is necessary, but here is a point when it should start becoming knowledge, then Wisdom.
Fazl
The unstable society for the sea is confusionMe
What exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.The conceptuality itself is unclear. this we have already dealt with and I have answered elaborately; but most of the points you have not replied that which i never pursued to pressurize you to answer. now that you are bringing it up again, I want to go exclusively on this on aseparate thread. i hope you will comply.
Yes, I will comply. I will comply to most things because I am seeking Wisdom. Will you start the thread or should I?
The major error is that the truth is one and the same that it paves way much more clear and broader to attain more clarity with ease than the difficulty you had in understanding the subject of quran before the invention of allegory. But you find the subject difficult to comprehend lately, even to imagine things and you are unable to stick them together. This is against the reading that wisdom of quran makes your way easier through the truth. Further, your mountain/government theory is a nonapplication and stays as a hypothesis. Your inability to make the community to believe and act is causing the failure of the concept. Whereas if you apply god's wisdom, we need not bother the community, yet you will live heavenly life even in this world even as an individual
.What community am I bothering? Did the messengers all have success in getting thier communities to believe and act? The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the CLEAR message. I am only trying to make this message clear to the best of my ability and to help spread the message of truth. I am not to control the affairs of mankind. I Understand very well that I have to protect my own "heaven" which is the PEACE that nothing should be able to shake. I am getting there, unless the God wills.
Me
Please be more specific brother. What is it about the symbolism of Musa that you find to be confused?How come you forget and ask again as if I have not pointed out at all in the same thread, regarding the particular question you have just asked here. You know pretty well you do not read the post fully, and you do not care to answer all points raised for want of further knowledge to explain; or to escape from being a victim through your own answers.
Brother, I normally break each post down into fragments and answer section by section. I am not fearing being wrong, and I have no problem with accpeting a better understanding which is well documented, but I have yet to hear one in relation to the symbolism of this reading. Further, just as you have stated above that you answered the questions about "peaceful heart" , I have also answered any question about Musa. So just as above you asked me to re ask any question about "peaceful heart", I am doing the VERY SAME.
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Then the mountains as stable government cannot fit into one's logic and i can mention more but i feel it is enough at this stage.Why does it not fit into one's logic? What does it mean to you that Noah's son sought refuge from the flood from some mountain? How do you apply that verse to life?
The application of that verse to life is Nooh's son knows swimming and he believed in his knowledge to swim. But Nooh's wisdom is absolute and far different to the swimming knowledge of his son. His son with his knowledge could not even note the raising levels of water and since the waves have not started yet, he could not foresee due to lack of wisdom and as a believer in knowledge of world standards he was immersed by the sudden wave that intervened between him and Nooh which pulled him to the depth of the water. This is the knowledge vs. wisdom. With his knowledge he imagined his escape on top of the mountain not heeding to the call of his father's wisdom. As a result he hit the botom of the floods.The application is never believe in knowledge that the people around the world believe for thir lives. Allah's wisdom when reaches you like the tsunami, you will despair and meet the disaster, inevitable!
But your understanding is not consistent with ALL of the verses that mention mountains. Mountains are very important in this reading(quran). Our struggle is symbolized as climbing a mountain. The God says he raised the mountain above us all and our job is to climb the path that is steep. When we get to the top of this governing sytem, we can see the WHOLE of it. Abraham was shown how the dead are revived by placing BIRDS on the tops of mountains (spiritual beings at the piont where they can see the WHOLE) and when they are called they come quickly. Seeing the WHOLE is how we obtain wisdom from the God. When things come together, it brings WISDOM and you say "Ohhhhh, thats it"!
If anyone has the US one dollar bill, look at the top of the pyramid and see the EYE at the top. The EYE that sees all, the whole, is at the top. These are very old symbolisms, brother.
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Amazing! You have bracketted quran assuming it to be the same as the reading.It is AMAZING that you just noticed this when I have done this for a LOOOONG time now. Also please pay attention to the entire phrase "THIS reading".
Even as you are in such a confusion, how is that you are in a sooo jooyous mood! Keep enjoying for a while, until you are serious with the quran.
Peace brings joy/hapinness. But it is not laughter because there is much work to be done. What makes you say I am confused? I am clearly explaining my position. Above you said I was being sarcastic, I deleted it because you were right so I moved past that, but the next statement from you is an insult, how is that better?
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Slow down, please give me your understanding of the word "quran".Read in the thread I had started what the Book and what the quran is! the title is Are Quranites the people of the Book I think you have the habit of reading only your own statements but not the replies what others make in response to.
You will have to excuse me for not memorizing your posts. Is it too much trouble to put it here in the center of the debate? I have had to answer the same questions from you more than once.
Since the GOD'S MESSAGE has been recited from the beginning, do we stop SAYING this message because it is not working for the majority of mankind?
Why should we stop God's message just because the majority reject?
Exactly my point, so why do we stop saying "Peace be upon you" just because most reject? Your point was since saying "peace be upon you" does not seem to work that it is wrong. By that same understanding, you should also want to stop the God's message.
So I will return the question to you once again brother, the God's prophets and messengers have been SAYING the God's Word to mankind since "from the time eternal". Should we discontinue spreading, that is SAYING the God's message because its message of PEACE has not yielded , what you desire as, sufficient fruits? Please answer.
The Prophets and the messengers were saying the quran not the reading. So recite more and rehearse more and get inspired with quran and SAY invoking Allah and seeking protection from shaitan at the same time.
Okay, lets try this again, the prophets and messengers have been saying the "quran" since the beginning. Should we stop saying the "quran" if it has not "worked' all this time? The same way you are saying we should not say "peace be upon you" because it does not seem to work according to you?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
Again, we are differing with our understanding of the words. In my understanding, no, knowledge and wisdom are not opposites, knowledge brings wisdom. To me, intellect(thinking) is opposite to knowledge(knowing). Thinking is necessary, but here is a point when it should start becoming knowledge, then Wisdom."Intellect" is the inherent capacity to ponder that imbibes the universal secrets in all its essence. But knowledge is eesentially a test for us, to induce and to put to full use the intellectual capacity, untainted with knowledge, which alone shall make one learn how low the subject called knowledge is.
Fazl
The unstable society for the sea is confusionMe
What exactly is confusing about this, please te, me exactly so we can resolve this.The conceptuality itself is unclear. this we have already dealt with and I have answered elaborately; but most of the points you have not replied that which i never pursued to pressurize you to answer. now that you are bringing it up again, I want to go exclusively on this on aseparate thread. i hope you will comply.
Yes, I will comply. I will comply to most things because I am seeking Wisdom. Will you start the thread or should I?
Please start. Glad to give full participation. May Allah Save Us from Shaitan. Alhamdulillah.
What community am I bothering? Did the messengers all have success in getting thier communities to believe and act? The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the CLEAR message. I am only trying to make this message clear to the best of my ability and to help spread the message of truth. I am not to control the affairs of mankind. I Understand very well that I have to protect my own "heaven" which is the PEACE that nothing should be able to shake. I am getting there, unless the God wills.
Your way of explaining will reach the socalled educated, scientific soicety. But an uneducated personal will not. The vast majority of the human race will be left behind. But quran is simple if only we do not apply the modern education which is full of pride and money. Thus, the explanation is not befitting to quran, since the essence of quran is withdrawn from the poorer, uneducated section.
But your understanding is not consistent with ALL of the verses that mention mountains
.It will be in consistent with every verse and its context. Because my understanding is based on the pondering, meaning applied reality.
Mountains are very important in this reading(quran). Our struggle is symbolized as climbing a mountain. The God says he raised the mountain above us all and our job is to climb the path that is steep.
Allah says your path is made easy for you, if you follow Him; which is diametrically opposite to your view.
022.078
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in this life.When we get to the top of this governing sytem, we can see the WHOLE of it. Abraham was shown how the dead are revived by placing BIRDS on the tops of mountains (spiritual beings at the piont where they can see the WHOLE) and when they are called they come quickly. Seeing the WHOLE is how we obtain wisdom from the God. When things come together, it brings WISDOM and you say "Ohhhhh, thats it"! D
As an ordinary man Ibrahim, learned direct from Allah how He creates, because He believed He would teach His intelect, sothat his heart saw the truth, through the physical eyes which event set His heart peaceful that Allah sure is "the creator". This is the way we follow and see to believe the unseen only with His Help. No allegory could be attached to this grand learning, clear as crystal.
Peace brings joy/hapinness. But it is not laughter because there is much work to be done. What makes you say I am confused? I am clearly explaining my position. Above you said I was being sarcastic, I deleted it because you were right so I moved past that, but the next statement from you is an insult, how is that better?
It is only tit far tat which is allowed in the reading.
You will have to excuse me for not memorizing your posts. Is it too much trouble to put it here in the center of the debate? I have had to answer the same questions from you more than once.
Yes, you have to.
Exactly my point, so why do we stop saying "Peace be upon you" just because most reject? Your point was since saying "peace be upon you" does not seem to work that it is wrong. By that same understanding, you should also want to stop the God's message.
I maintain, only Allah can give you peace, So start in the name of Allah before wishing peace. You know you have no peace at hand for yourself.
Okay, lets try this again, the prophets and messengers have been saying the "quran" since the beginning. Should we stop saying the "quran" if it has not "worked' all this time? The same way you are saying we should not say "peace be upon you" because it does not seem to work according to you?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
"Intellect" is the inherent capacity to ponder that imbibes the universal secrets in all its essence. But knowledge is eesentially a test for us, to induce and to put to full use the intellectual capacity, untainted with knowledge, which alone shall make one learn how low the subject called knowledge is.
I respectfully disagree, I see the test as being one who THINKS they KNOW, so they say they have knowledge, but they have only guessed. Again, until you KNOW something, it is not KNOWledge.
Yes, I will comply. I will comply to most things because I am seeking Wisdom. Will you start the thread or should I?
Please start. Glad to give full participation. May Allah Save Us from Shaitan. Alhamdulillah.
I will start the thread on general questions section as soon as I am done responding.
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What community am I bothering? Did the messengers all have success in getting thier communities to believe and act? The only duty of the messenger is to deliver the CLEAR message. I am only trying to make this message clear to the best of my ability and to help spread the message of truth. I am not to control the affairs of mankind. I Understand very well that I have to protect my own "heaven" which is the PEACE that nothing should be able to shake. I am getting there, unless the God wills.Your way of explaining will reach the socalled educated, scientific soicety. But an uneducated personal will not. The vast majority of the human race will be left behind.
I do not lock myself into one "personality". I talk to differnet people in different ways. The language I use with my friends is not exactly the same way I talk on this forum, although I keep the same morals. The messenger speaks in the language of the people.
But quran is simple if only we do not apply the modern education which is full of pride and money. Thus, the explanation is not befitting to quran, since the essence of quran is withdrawn from the poorer, uneducated section.
So give an example of both so I can clearly see the difference you are trying to show me.
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Mountains are very important in this reading(quran). Our struggle is symbolized as climbing a mountain. The God says he raised the mountain above us all and our job is to climb the path that is steep.Allah says your path is made easy for you, if you follow Him; which is diametrically opposite to your view.
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And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in this life.How is this OPPOSITE to what I stated? further, it is straight from this reading(quran).
(9010-1 (yusuf ali) And shown him the two highways? But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep. And what will explain to thee the path that is steep? (It is freeing the bondman; Or the giving of food in a day of privation To the orphan with claims of relationship, Or to the indigent (down) in the dust. Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion. Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.
I did not say it was a difficult path, only a steep path.
It is man who makes it difficult for himself. (I cannot recall the verse that speaks of the climb beig made difficult)
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When we get to the top of this governing sytem, we can see the WHOLE of it. Abraham was shown how the dead are revived by placing BIRDS on the tops of mountains (spiritual beings at the piont where they can see the WHOLE) and when they are called they come quickly. Seeing the WHOLE is how we obtain wisdom from the God. When things come together, it brings WISDOM and you say "Ohhhhh, thats it"!As an ordinary man Ibrahim, learned direct from Allah how He creates, because He believed He would teach His intelect, sothat his heart saw the truth, through the physical eyes which event set His heart peaceful that Allah sure is "the creator". This is the way we follow and see to believe the unseen only with His Help. No allegory could be attached to this grand learning, clear as crystal.
The God does noy shy from similitudes, from the tiny mosquito to that which is above it.
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Exactly my point, so why do we stop saying "Peace be upon you" just because most reject? Your point was since saying "peace be upon you" does not seem to work that it is wrong. By that same understanding, you should also want to stop the God's message.I maintain, only Allah can give you peace, So start in the name of Allah before wishing peace. You know you have no peace at hand for yourself.
Let me ask you, will the God grant peace to those you greet with "may Allah grant you peace"?
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Peace be upon you Brother Fazl,
I will start the thread on general questions section as soon as I am done responding.I will be responding there.
I do not lock myself into one "personality". I talk to differnet people in different ways. The language I use with my friends is not exactly the same way I talk on this forum, although I keep the same morals. The messenger speaks in the language of the people.
May Allah Bless
So give an example of both so I can clearly see the difference you are trying to show me.
I appreciate if one subject is discussed at a time unlike quoting and countering quoting like this.
It is man who makes it difficult for himself. (I cannot recall the verse that speaks of the climb beig made difficult)
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Those whom Allah willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth Allah the penalty on those who refuse to believe.The God does noy shy from similitudes, from the tiny mosquito to that which is above it.
Allah's similitude is very practical and existing already. It is none other than a reminder that we forgot.
Let me ask you, will the God grant peace to those you greet with "may Allah grant you peace"?
I do not know. It is with God. But I am saying in the manner I am asked to, that is it!