Alcohol/intoxicants.
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peace all,
I think some people (on both sides of the debate) seem to assign some sort of special status to this word "haram" (~forbidden) as if that is the strongest word The Quran could use. Note that even "haram" things are allowed under certain circumstances, see 2173.
This is a good article
http//quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htmAnd
http//learn-about-islam.com/2011/10/31/alcohol-is-forbidden/ -
In the end we will be fairly judged anyway, by our Creator.
In the meantime, people will judge us according to their own beliefs, wishes, experience and understanding.The wise person will avoid anything which feels bad, or which is obviously detrimental despite feeling good at some level. Actually we don't even need to get all the terminology correctly defined and all prohibition and permissions correctly outlined from holy texts. All we need is pure honesty, clear-sightedness and some knowledge and wisdom, which of course includes the rare thing called common sense. With this we can easily navigate in the world. The problem is when we fall for temptation, because we don't know ourselves enough to avoid it, and because we are ignorant about the bigger picture which would give us more than enough reasons for avoiding the temptations. All in all, our problems, mistakes, suffering and vices often come from ignorance... blindness. Actually, ignorance is widespread... and is like a hallmark of the human race. We are all ignorant in different ways.
Whether alcohol is permitted, discouraged or prohibited... one would in any case be wise enough to avoid it. It should not need to take a book to tell us that it is detrimental, but I guess it does.
I'm also not a fan of those who insist on the badness of alcohol purely on the basis of a text. Even if they are right, it is not based wisdom or insight.... what if their text is interpreted wrongly?
Peace all!
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Greetings and Peace, all group
peace all,
I think some people (on both sides of the debate) seem to assign some sort of special status to this word "haram" (~forbidden) as if that is the strongest word The Quran could use. Note that even "haram" things are allowed under certain circumstances, see 2173.
This is a good article
http//quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htmAnd
http//learn-about-islam.com/2011/10/31/alcohol-is-forbidden/There are some good points in each of the articles. However, the first linked article in particular isn't exactly balanced and ignores some obvious points.
The first article neglects to mention that "sukr" found in 443 is also found in 222. Transposing a meaning of other than intoxicated, such as "befogged" doesn't seem to work well.
222 The moment you see it, every nursing mother will leave her suckling child, and every pregnant one will miscarry, and you will see the people while they are not , but the retribution of GOD is most severe.
The article does state "The Arabic word 'sukara' that is used is not restricted to intoxicants." Okay, so it ~can~ mean intoxicants--and/or anything else that befogs the mind.
As such, it follows that 443 can't be dismissed merely because it doesn't mention alcohol exclusively.
Also
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
Seriously, why make wine if it is prohibited? What does one do with wine? hmm
The first article claims that the example of rivers of wine in Paradise doesn't mean that it is allowed on earth. This is a dubious claim, especially in light of 732 (and the fact that it is made in 1667).
732 Say "Who has made unlawful the nice things that GOD has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
It is somewhat hilarious to claim that something that is "satanic input" is allowed in Paradise. It is more probable that "satanic input" is conjecture.
We are warned against intoxication and excess. There are many forms of excess; one form of excess is forbidding what is not forbidden. Newsflash it takes a certain amount of intoxicant to intoxicate! This is the case with water, with oxygen, and with alcohol--all of these substances can intoxicate in sufficient quantity.
There are FM articles on this subject on the main page for consideration.
http//free-minds.org/alcohol-quran
http//free-minds.org/alcohol-forbidden-islam
Let everyone follow their own best understanding, and may ALLAH see fit to Guide us all.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Abdul-Hadi
I have read your comments and you seem to support drinking of alcoholic beverages. But I have not seen anything based around the verses of 5990 and 91. These pretty emphatically ban the drinking of Alcohol.
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
Seriously, why make wine if it is prohibited? What does one do with wine?
This only refers to the fact that people make wine. And then it says "and a good provision" and then "In that is a sign for a people who comprehend." So - if you add that up and the fact that other verses explicitly prohibit wine then it is somewhat easy to see what is there to comprehend.
The first article claims that the example of rivers of wine in Paradise doesn't mean that it is allowed on earth. This is a dubious claim, especially in light of 732 (and the fact that it is made in 1667).
Yet - the "wine" and other provisions of Paradise are different to earthly paradise.
"Is the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all fruits and forgiveness from their Lord, like those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines?"
Quran 4715
We do not have milk whose taste doesn't change and etc.
We are warned against intoxication and excess. There are many forms of excess; one form of excess is forbidding what is not forbidden. Newsflash it takes a certain amount of intoxicant to intoxicate! This is the case with water, with oxygen, and with alcohol--all of these substances can intoxicate in sufficient quantity.
"We are not warned against" but we are asked to stay away and refrain - which is complete prohibition.
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination, Of Satan?s handiwork Eschew such (abomination) that ye may prosper.
Satan?s plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of God, and from prayer Will ye not then refrain? (Al Maeda; 590-1)
Let everyone follow their own best understanding, and may ALLAH see fit to Guide us all.
In some matter such as this - one has to come to a ruling and everyone then has to follow it - else society does not work and you cannot form law. In every case you cannot have people making up their own ruling. If an action is limited to a person - then one can see personal interpretations working . . . in other matters you cannot. If everyone had their own prayer times, methods and whatnot - you can never form congregation. If everyone had their own personal rulings about theft, inheritance, marriage, etc, then how can laws be formed and ultimately formation of successful society?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Let any who "advise" or support a total prohibition on all intoxicants lead the example by abstaining from alcohol...oxygen...water, and all other intoxicants!
Everyone should gather facts and use their own faculties to decide--nobody should follow another blindly. Should anybody try to FORCE their understanding on others, the would-be-forcer is an oppressor (DIRECT violator of clear commandments), and an enemy of peace and justice. Such people are beneath contempt in this world--and the Judgment of ALLAH shall suffice for them in the next.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Let any who "advise" or support a total prohibition on all intoxicants lead the example by abstaining from alcohol...oxygen...water, and all other intoxicants!
Everyone should gather facts and use their own faculties to decide--nobody should follow another blindly. Should anybody try to FORCE their understanding on others, the would-be-forcer is an oppressor (DIRECT violator of clear commandments), and an enemy of peace and justice. Such people are beneath contempt in this world--and the Judgment of ALLAH shall suffice for them in the next.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
Water and Oxygen are NOT intoxicant as such akin to alcoholic beverages. The proposition is ludicrous and outright ridiculous.
Should anybody try to FORCE their understanding on others, the would-be-forcer is an oppressor
You cannot force people to think anything that they do not want to think. But in a society - you can force them to obey laws which they DO NOT agree with.
Living in England - I have to abide by many laws that I do not agree with.
As I mentioned before - something effect society as whole others do not.
Such people are beneath contempt in this world--and the Judgment of ALLAH shall suffice for them in the next.
Is that an indirect pot-shot at me? sun
On evidence - the position that Alcohol is not forbidden in Islam extremely weak. From purely Quranic standpoint - such position is unjustifiable in the light verses from Surah Maidah.
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I think that word 'sakaran' would be better translated/interpreted as 'juice(s)', because it would make sense to use grapes and fruits to make juice rather than wine/intoxicants and have it contradict the other verses where it tells us to stay away from it, unless I've totally missed something (note I have like really basic knowledge in arabic so I don't know much). Also that word, I think it's 'khamra'.. Does it means intoxicants, or 'intoxicating'?
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http//quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htm
http//learn-about-islam.com/2011/10/31/alcohol-is-forbidden/Very agree.
Peace
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Alcohol use from a quranic perspective
In the Quran, the Arabic word ?khamar? is used for intoxicants. The definition of ?khamar? is any agent that veils the mind and it is clear that alcohol is part of it. As per 590, we are told that intoxicants in general are the agents of the Devil by which he causes animosity and hatred among people (591). Believers are told to avoid the devil.
2291 tells us that intoxicants (khamar) are sin or cause harm (isthmun) but also tells us that we can get some benefits out of them.
These verses should be sufficient to consider alcohol as a sin to be avoided. And for any sincere believer, if God says to avoid it, we should avoid it. Some insist that ?avoid? is not ?forbid?. However, in 2230, God asks us as to avoid foulness of idols and false statement. Are a little foulness of idols or some false statements allowed?
We cannot conclude from these verses alone that alcohol is forbidden as it has been rightly pointed out that, nowhere in the Quran, there exists a verse where God explicitly says that it is a forbidden (haram).
In fact, the Quran does make a relation between intoxicants and prohibition not in a single verse but by using cross reference.
I 7.33, the prophet is told to say that his Lord has forbidden (harama) immoralities, sin (isthma) oppression, association with God or to tell something about God out of knowledge. Here I have given the word in Arabic between brackets so that I cannot be accused of false translation or distorting meaning of words
From 2219 khamar is isthm
From 733 Isthm is Haram
Through syllogism, it can be easily concluded that ?khamar? is ?haram? that is intoxicants including alcohol are forbidden
431 goes even further and tells us to avoid sins that we are forbidden. In other words, forbidden things which include sins (733) which themselves include intoxicants (2219) are to be avoided and this is in complete harmony with 590
What about the benefits?
Surely, in the intoxicants there are numerous benefits especially in the medical field as pain killers, drug detoxification, anesthesia, in some neurological and neuromuscular diseases as for cannabis. One may consider the social effect of disinhibition and euphoria as a benefit. It may even have some gustatory benefit. The Quran does not deny this as per 2219. The problem with these recreational benefits is that the benefits come alongside impaired judgement and as we have seen, as from a low dose, we are not in full control of our utterings. Things that are not meant to be said are uttered and may be the cause of great deception and regret. The benefit is thus outweighed by the detrimental effect of impaired judgement
No sincere believer can disobey God, when he is told to avoid intoxicants, for his own pleasure. As for the medical benefit, we can surely find clauses in the Quran that suspend this prohibition. In 2173, certain foods considered as sin that are forbidden, are no longer sin if taken under duress or for necessity of life (life-saving). We understand from this verse that what is considered a sin normally is not considered as a sin under particular circumstances.
Speaking about some benefits of alcohol (2219) does not suspend the prohibition on alcohol but it is some particular circumstances that can. 2173 goes even further and tells us not to desire it and not to transgress. It implies that if there is an alternative, the suspension is void.
What about 443?
443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe?
443 is used as an argument to say that God only specified not to approach Salat (prayer) while intoxicated. In my humble opinion, this verse has been wrongly interpreted both by the proponents who believe that alcohol is allowed and by the traditionalists. They both believe that this verse is speaking specifically about intoxicants. For the former, this is a proof that intoxicants are allowed even if it is severely discouraged. For the latter, this verse (or part of it) has been abrogated by the ban on alcohol and came during the process of revelation as a gradual evolution of the muslim community preparing them for the definitive ban.
In fact this verse is not talking about intoxicants but about the condition of prayer. Elsewhere in the Quran, other conditions have been set like cleanliness, sincerity or facing toward the Qibla. This can be understood more clearly with the following example. Suppose your teacher tells you not to cheat during your examination. This command relates only to the condition of the examination to be valid. Similarly in 443, it is the validity of prayer that is being discussed and not intoxicant itself.
Moreover, the verse is not inferring that intoxicants may be used outside prayer. There is a fallacy in logic here. The teacher that tells you not to cheat in the examination is not inferring that you may cheat outside the examination room.
The argument of the traditionalists that this verse is abrogated is also completely illogical. This is an easy way to discard things that one doesn?t understand. The belief of the gradual evolution of society sounds plausible. But will God leave a verse in his complete Book that is no longer valid? Abrogating this verse means that they also see this verse as related to intoxicants whereas it is related to the condition of prayer.
One may ask why God mention only intoxication, among all the sins, to invalidate prayer. This seems logical as nobody can lie, cheat, rob during prayers but there is a physical possibility to pray while intoxicated. Furthermore this state is mentioned together with the state of ?junub? (condition after a sexual intercourse and before taking a bath) further emphasizing that this verse is about the condition of prayer and not about sexual relation either.
443 goes even further specifying that it is acute intoxication that invalidates prayer as you may not know what you are saying. Prayers should be done when you are aware of your utterances. God is his great wisdom left the door of repentance and asking for help (two main purposes of prayer) open even if you suffer from a chronic intoxication provided you are willing to help yourself according to the big picture we get from the Quran that God will not change your state if you are not willing to change yourself.
Final thoughts
Today it is a known fact that alcohol is a major problem in society. In a country like France 10% of the population have a major problem with alcohol. In some regions, this percentage is even higher.
God, in the Quran, declared it a sin (2219), a work of Satan (590; 591) and made it forbidden (733).
The Quran does inform us that there are some benefits but advises us that the harm is much greater that the benefit (2219). Under duress and in case of necessity of life, these products may be used with moderation and not seeking for transgression (2173).
431 informs us that sins may be forgiven. It is understood that sins are forgiven when we ask for forgiveness and this can be done through prayers. 443 sets the absence of acute intoxication as a pre requisite for prayer as, during this time, one should have the mastery of one?s sayings.
Quranic verses on intoxicants are consistent with themselves and with the spirit of the Quran. We understand that God forbids alcohol (and all intoxicants) for recreational purposes but allows it in case of necessity. This is the wisest command for us and this is not surprising. Who can know us better than ourselves if it?s not our Creator, Al Hakim (The Wise).you can visit the whole article on https//www.facebook.com/notes/khaleel-joomye/-alcohol-a-quranic-perspective/696946700349378
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Peace
Forbid or Prohibit to you all is a direct command, whereas Avoid is advisory i.e at your own dicretion. Is it so difficult? Anyway, every law in the Qur'an is a recommendation only ( No Conpulsion to follow).
Peace
Of course there is compulsion to follow IF you choose Islam. As the good book says - Enter into Islam completely.
whereas Avoid is advisory i.e at your own dicretion. Is it so difficult?
Here is the problem - you are deliberately avoiding NOT talking about the verses. . .
The verse forbidding Alcohol is a DIRECT COMMAND. And it is not left at one's own discretion. For example praying does not say "We have made lawful praying" No. It says "Pray" - command.
Arabic has a special form to convey direct commands - the imperative verb form - al- Fael al-Amr
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I think that word 'sakaran' would be better translated/interpreted as 'juice(s)', because it would make sense to use grapes and fruits to make juice rather than wine/intoxicants and have it contradict the other verses where it tells us to stay away from it, unless I've totally missed something (note I have like really basic knowledge in arabic so I don't know much). Also that word, I think it's 'khamra'.. Does it means intoxicants, or 'intoxicating'?
The word Sa Ki Ra - means 'to be or get drunk' so it is pretty impossible for the word 'sakaran' to mean "Grape Juice". There is no contradiction between any verses - and you have not pointed any out either.
Meaning of words are not really decided on your own personal logic - but by lexicons and history of that particular word.
Also that word, I think it's 'khamra'.. Does it means intoxicants, or 'intoxicating'?
Khmar means the "intoxicant" that is anything brewed beverage that makes you intoxicated. The secondary meaning and usage of the word is "Intoxication".
I have studied Classical and Modern Standard Arabic - and I am not a Native Arab.
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@The_chimp, in regards to the word sa ki ra, there was a verse I think you mentioned that said something along the lines of 'you use grapes to make wine (sakaran), in that is for those who think'.. or something along those lines. Now if that word's meaning is 'to get drunk', how come it seems to shed a positive light on the fact you can make wine out of grapes? (shedding of positive light on the verse is my opinion/interpretation, not fact)
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Alcohol use from a quranic perspective
In the Quran, the Arabic word ?khamar? is used for intoxicants. The definition of ?khamar? is any agent that veils the mind and it is clear that alcohol is part of it. As per 590, we are told that intoxicants in general are the agents of the Devil by which he causes animosity and hatred among people (591). Believers are told to avoid the devil.
2291 tells us that intoxicants (khamar) are sin or cause harm (isthmun) but also tells us that we can get some benefits out of them.
These verses should be sufficient to consider alcohol as a sin to be avoided. And for any sincere believer, if God says to avoid it, we should avoid it. Some insist that ?avoid? is not ?forbid?. However, in 2230, God asks us as to avoid foulness of idols and false statement. Are a little foulness of idols or some false statements allowed?
We cannot conclude from these verses alone that alcohol is forbidden as it has been rightly pointed out that, nowhere in the Quran, there exists a verse where God explicitly says that it is a forbidden (haram).
In fact, the Quran does make a relation between intoxicants and prohibition not in a single verse but by using cross reference.
I 7.33, the prophet is told to say that his Lord has forbidden (harama) immoralities, sin (isthma) oppression, association with God or to tell something about God out of knowledge. Here I have given the word in Arabic between brackets so that I cannot be accused of false translation or distorting meaning of words
From 2219 khamar is isthm
From 733 Isthm is Haram
Through syllogism, it can be easily concluded that ?khamar? is ?haram? that is intoxicants including alcohol are forbidden
431 goes even further and tells us to avoid sins that we are forbidden. In other words, forbidden things which include sins (733) which themselves include intoxicants (2219) are to be avoided and this is in complete harmony with 590
What about the benefits?
Surely, in the intoxicants there are numerous benefits especially in the medical field as pain killers, drug detoxification, anesthesia, in some neurological and neuromuscular diseases as for cannabis. One may consider the social effect of disinhibition and euphoria as a benefit. It may even have some gustatory benefit. The Quran does not deny this as per 2219. The problem with these recreational benefits is that the benefits come alongside impaired judgement and as we have seen, as from a low dose, we are not in full control of our utterings. Things that are not meant to be said are uttered and may be the cause of great deception and regret. The benefit is thus outweighed by the detrimental effect of impaired judgement
No sincere believer can disobey God, when he is told to avoid intoxicants, for his own pleasure. As for the medical benefit, we can surely find clauses in the Quran that suspend this prohibition. In 2173, certain foods considered as sin that are forbidden, are no longer sin if taken under duress or for necessity of life (life-saving). We understand from this verse that what is considered a sin normally is not considered as a sin under particular circumstances.
Speaking about some benefits of alcohol (2219) does not suspend the prohibition on alcohol but it is some particular circumstances that can. 2173 goes even further and tells us not to desire it and not to transgress. It implies that if there is an alternative, the suspension is void.
What about 443?
443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe?
443 is used as an argument to say that God only specified not to approach Salat (prayer) while intoxicated. In my humble opinion, this verse has been wrongly interpreted both by the proponents who believe that alcohol is allowed and by the traditionalists. They both believe that this verse is speaking specifically about intoxicants. For the former, this is a proof that intoxicants are allowed even if it is severely discouraged. For the latter, this verse (or part of it) has been abrogated by the ban on alcohol and came during the process of revelation as a gradual evolution of the muslim community preparing them for the definitive ban.
In fact this verse is not talking about intoxicants but about the condition of prayer. Elsewhere in the Quran, other conditions have been set like cleanliness, sincerity or facing toward the Qibla. This can be understood more clearly with the following example. Suppose your teacher tells you not to cheat during your examination. This command relates only to the condition of the examination to be valid. Similarly in 443, it is the validity of prayer that is being discussed and not intoxicant itself.
Moreover, the verse is not inferring that intoxicants may be used outside prayer. There is a fallacy in logic here. The teacher that tells you not to cheat in the examination is not inferring that you may cheat outside the examination room.
The argument of the traditionalists that this verse is abrogated is also completely illogical. This is an easy way to discard things that one doesn?t understand. The belief of the gradual evolution of society sounds plausible. But will God leave a verse in his complete Book that is no longer valid? Abrogating this verse means that they also see this verse as related to intoxicants whereas it is related to the condition of prayer.
One may ask why God mention only intoxication, among all the sins, to invalidate prayer. This seems logical as nobody can lie, cheat, rob during prayers but there is a physical possibility to pray while intoxicated. Furthermore this state is mentioned together with the state of ?junub? (condition after a sexual intercourse and before taking a bath) further emphasizing that this verse is about the condition of prayer and not about sexual relation either.
443 goes even further specifying that it is acute intoxication that invalidates prayer as you may not know what you are saying. Prayers should be done when you are aware of your utterances. God is his great wisdom left the door of repentance and asking for help (two main purposes of prayer) open even if you suffer from a chronic intoxication provided you are willing to help yourself according to the big picture we get from the Quran that God will not change your state if you are not willing to change yourself.
Final thoughts
Today it is a known fact that alcohol is a major problem in society. In a country like France 10% of the population have a major problem with alcohol. In some regions, this percentage is even higher.
God, in the Quran, declared it a sin (2219), a work of Satan (590; 591) and made it forbidden (733).
The Quran does inform us that there are some benefits but advises us that the harm is much greater that the benefit (2219). Under duress and in case of necessity of life, these products may be used with moderation and not seeking for transgression (2173).
431 informs us that sins may be forgiven. It is understood that sins are forgiven when we ask for forgiveness and this can be done through prayers. 443 sets the absence of acute intoxication as a pre requisite for prayer as, during this time, one should have the mastery of one?s sayings.
Quranic verses on intoxicants are consistent with themselves and with the spirit of the Quran. We understand that God forbids alcohol (and all intoxicants) for recreational purposes but allows it in case of necessity. This is the wisest command for us and this is not surprising. Who can know us better than ourselves if it?s not our Creator, Al Hakim (The Wise).you can visit the whole article on https//www.facebook.com/notes/khaleel-joomye/-alcohol-a-quranic-perspective/696946700349378
We cannot conclude from these verses alone that alcohol is forbidden as it has been rightly pointed out that, nowhere in the Quran, there exists a verse where God explicitly says that it is a forbidden (haram).
That is incorrect. Verse 590 explicitly forbids Alcohol. It is no good trying to find opt outs by the word "Haram" as commands are NOT conveyed by this one particular verb or its opposite .
For example - the command to convey "Praying" is not communicated by using "We have made it Halal for you to pray" rather the Quran uses imperative from of "Establish" to convey command of praying.
Hence - the above is simply desperate nit-picking to find a way out.
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@The_chimp, in regards to the word sa ki ra, there was a verse I think you mentioned that said something along the lines of 'you use grapes to make wine (sakaran), in that is for those who think'.. or something along those lines. Now if that word's meaning is 'to get drunk', how come it seems to shed a positive light on the fact you can make wine out of grapes? (shedding of positive light on the verse is my opinion/interpretation, not fact)
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
It is not really grapes - but fruit of palm tree - dates and others. To the main issue
The verse is NOT talking positively or negatively about wine-making. It simply mentions that is what people do with it. Let us read
And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision.
This is information giving - people get food and make wine from fruit of the date palm
In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
And then we are asked to ponder this.
So where is the positive aspect of wine? There isn't. As to the negative there are several verses. The only verse that mention positive aspect;
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess ." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses that you might give thought.
But even this condemns wine. And then the verses 590-91 forbid it outright.
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Yeah it makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying that for me
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Peace
If alcohol was haram/forbidden then why this verse 4715?
15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
I believe that if Allah says haram He means haram and if Allah say avoid He does not mean it is haram. why do people think they know better than The Author of The Qur'an ?
Peace
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Peace
If alcohol was haram/forbidden then why this verse 4715?
15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
I believe that if Allah says haram He means haram and if Allah say avoid He does not mean it is haram. why do people think they know better than The Author of The Qur'an ?
Peace
So what do you think "avoid" means? What do you think the end result is?
Meaning of Avoid
"keep away from or stop oneself from doing (something)."
As I have explained - Arabic has a linguistic form to convey direct commands - for example command to pray is not by using the word "Halal" opposite of Haram. But the word used is "Establish" - yet we understand this as direct command.
As to the verse you mention
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It is regarding paradise - get to that paradise then legality of "Wine" is different.
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The verse makes it clear - earthly food and heavenly food is different - so get to that heaven and the "nature" of the wine will be different.
As the verse 590-91 make it clear - this "wine" is enmity of Satan and it keeps one away from remembrance of Allah. So, it is unlikely the wine provided by the almighty will not do that.
why do people think they know better than The Author of The Qur'an ?
No why don't you answer that . . . and also answer is Alcohol banned or not?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Okay, from this forum it seems obvious that alcohol is not singled out as topic for discussion; ANYTHING that intoxicates/befogs is included. As such, here are some links to highlight the absurdity of outright banning anything capable of intoxication.
http//www.fantazia.org.uk/drugs/oxygen.htm
Oxygen as a recreational drug. An oxygen bar, no less! That's right, the oxygen that we are breathing right now can be used as an intoxicant.
Here is an article on water intoxication
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
Here is an article on how much alcohol it actually takes to intoxicate a normal person of given weight
http//www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html
So, if alcohol is an intoxicant in any amount (as some argue), it can be inferred that oxygen and water are likewise intoxicants in any amount, right?
Oh, take a look on this list and see what other intoxicants are being consumed!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_intoxicant
Put down the coffee, and the chai, and the tea! Caffeine is a drug. And the pipe, cigarette, and hookah! Nicotine is clearly a drug. Nutmeg and chocolate are drugs. http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Nutmeg *** http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Cacao No extreme is too great, because it is CLEAR that intoxicants are prohibited! <sarcasm>
So then, is it intoxicants or intoxication that should be guarded against? <rhetorical question>
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Oxygen as a recreational drug. An oxygen bar, no less! That's right, the oxygen that we are breathing right now can be used as an intoxicant.
Herein lies absurdity of your objections - oxygen that we breathe is not harmful nor an intoxicant. If it was we would be going round high - but we are not. Hence there is clear difference between what we breathe and a concentrated from which gives some kind of high.
Here is what your link says
"Yes we breath it all day long but some believe in concentrated form when breathed intensely for short periods that it can produce a high to replace the need for illegal alternatives."
Doesn't tell much does it. What kind of high? Is it a stimulant like coffee, tea, qat?
Here is an article on water intoxication
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
"Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning or dilutional hyponatremia, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside safe limits by over-hydration."
There you go . . . enough said on that. Your own "source" is against your argument and reveals the underlying absurdity.
Here is something for you to ponder upon
How do you think secular law deals with the difference between these intoxicants and those that actually cause damage?
Here is an article on how much alcohol it actually takes to intoxicate a normal person of given weight
http//www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html
So, if alcohol is an intoxicant in any amount (as some argue), it can be inferred that oxygen and water are likewise intoxicants in any amount, right?
Other than the fact that water and oxygen intoxication actually refers to something else. And to the fact that - alcoholic drinks and drugs - their primary function is to alter state of human mind and body functions in some way and this is obviously not true for Water and Oxygen. The two are very different in nature.
Put down the coffee, and the chai, and the tea! Caffeine is a drug. And the pipe, cigarette, and hookah! Nicotine is clearly a drug. Nutmeg and chocolate are drugs. http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Nutmeg *** http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Cacao No extreme is too great, because it is CLEAR that intoxicants are prohibited! <sarcasm>
Tea and Coffee are stimulants - they produce a stimulating effect. Nicotine is a highly addictive and dangerous drug and it is equally fobidden in Islam. Once again the nature of the two is different. I have not yet heard of grave illnesses associated with Tea or Coffee.
Chocolate isn't a drug and neither is nutmeg and neither are they taken as drug.
I think you know that your objectives and so weak they flop over with a delicate push . . . but at least by the end of this no stone would be left unturned - and there will not really be any doubt left that Alcohol is banned in Islam.
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