Alcohol/intoxicants.
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Alcohol use from a quranic perspective
In the Quran, the Arabic word ?khamar? is used for intoxicants. The definition of ?khamar? is any agent that veils the mind and it is clear that alcohol is part of it. As per 590, we are told that intoxicants in general are the agents of the Devil by which he causes animosity and hatred among people (591). Believers are told to avoid the devil.
2291 tells us that intoxicants (khamar) are sin or cause harm (isthmun) but also tells us that we can get some benefits out of them.
These verses should be sufficient to consider alcohol as a sin to be avoided. And for any sincere believer, if God says to avoid it, we should avoid it. Some insist that ?avoid? is not ?forbid?. However, in 2230, God asks us as to avoid foulness of idols and false statement. Are a little foulness of idols or some false statements allowed?
We cannot conclude from these verses alone that alcohol is forbidden as it has been rightly pointed out that, nowhere in the Quran, there exists a verse where God explicitly says that it is a forbidden (haram).
In fact, the Quran does make a relation between intoxicants and prohibition not in a single verse but by using cross reference.
I 7.33, the prophet is told to say that his Lord has forbidden (harama) immoralities, sin (isthma) oppression, association with God or to tell something about God out of knowledge. Here I have given the word in Arabic between brackets so that I cannot be accused of false translation or distorting meaning of words
From 2219 khamar is isthm
From 733 Isthm is Haram
Through syllogism, it can be easily concluded that ?khamar? is ?haram? that is intoxicants including alcohol are forbidden
431 goes even further and tells us to avoid sins that we are forbidden. In other words, forbidden things which include sins (733) which themselves include intoxicants (2219) are to be avoided and this is in complete harmony with 590
What about the benefits?
Surely, in the intoxicants there are numerous benefits especially in the medical field as pain killers, drug detoxification, anesthesia, in some neurological and neuromuscular diseases as for cannabis. One may consider the social effect of disinhibition and euphoria as a benefit. It may even have some gustatory benefit. The Quran does not deny this as per 2219. The problem with these recreational benefits is that the benefits come alongside impaired judgement and as we have seen, as from a low dose, we are not in full control of our utterings. Things that are not meant to be said are uttered and may be the cause of great deception and regret. The benefit is thus outweighed by the detrimental effect of impaired judgement
No sincere believer can disobey God, when he is told to avoid intoxicants, for his own pleasure. As for the medical benefit, we can surely find clauses in the Quran that suspend this prohibition. In 2173, certain foods considered as sin that are forbidden, are no longer sin if taken under duress or for necessity of life (life-saving). We understand from this verse that what is considered a sin normally is not considered as a sin under particular circumstances.
Speaking about some benefits of alcohol (2219) does not suspend the prohibition on alcohol but it is some particular circumstances that can. 2173 goes even further and tells us not to desire it and not to transgress. It implies that if there is an alternative, the suspension is void.
What about 443?
443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe?
443 is used as an argument to say that God only specified not to approach Salat (prayer) while intoxicated. In my humble opinion, this verse has been wrongly interpreted both by the proponents who believe that alcohol is allowed and by the traditionalists. They both believe that this verse is speaking specifically about intoxicants. For the former, this is a proof that intoxicants are allowed even if it is severely discouraged. For the latter, this verse (or part of it) has been abrogated by the ban on alcohol and came during the process of revelation as a gradual evolution of the muslim community preparing them for the definitive ban.
In fact this verse is not talking about intoxicants but about the condition of prayer. Elsewhere in the Quran, other conditions have been set like cleanliness, sincerity or facing toward the Qibla. This can be understood more clearly with the following example. Suppose your teacher tells you not to cheat during your examination. This command relates only to the condition of the examination to be valid. Similarly in 443, it is the validity of prayer that is being discussed and not intoxicant itself.
Moreover, the verse is not inferring that intoxicants may be used outside prayer. There is a fallacy in logic here. The teacher that tells you not to cheat in the examination is not inferring that you may cheat outside the examination room.
The argument of the traditionalists that this verse is abrogated is also completely illogical. This is an easy way to discard things that one doesn?t understand. The belief of the gradual evolution of society sounds plausible. But will God leave a verse in his complete Book that is no longer valid? Abrogating this verse means that they also see this verse as related to intoxicants whereas it is related to the condition of prayer.
One may ask why God mention only intoxication, among all the sins, to invalidate prayer. This seems logical as nobody can lie, cheat, rob during prayers but there is a physical possibility to pray while intoxicated. Furthermore this state is mentioned together with the state of ?junub? (condition after a sexual intercourse and before taking a bath) further emphasizing that this verse is about the condition of prayer and not about sexual relation either.
443 goes even further specifying that it is acute intoxication that invalidates prayer as you may not know what you are saying. Prayers should be done when you are aware of your utterances. God is his great wisdom left the door of repentance and asking for help (two main purposes of prayer) open even if you suffer from a chronic intoxication provided you are willing to help yourself according to the big picture we get from the Quran that God will not change your state if you are not willing to change yourself.
Final thoughts
Today it is a known fact that alcohol is a major problem in society. In a country like France 10% of the population have a major problem with alcohol. In some regions, this percentage is even higher.
God, in the Quran, declared it a sin (2219), a work of Satan (590; 591) and made it forbidden (733).
The Quran does inform us that there are some benefits but advises us that the harm is much greater that the benefit (2219). Under duress and in case of necessity of life, these products may be used with moderation and not seeking for transgression (2173).
431 informs us that sins may be forgiven. It is understood that sins are forgiven when we ask for forgiveness and this can be done through prayers. 443 sets the absence of acute intoxication as a pre requisite for prayer as, during this time, one should have the mastery of one?s sayings.
Quranic verses on intoxicants are consistent with themselves and with the spirit of the Quran. We understand that God forbids alcohol (and all intoxicants) for recreational purposes but allows it in case of necessity. This is the wisest command for us and this is not surprising. Who can know us better than ourselves if it?s not our Creator, Al Hakim (The Wise).you can visit the whole article on https//www.facebook.com/notes/khaleel-joomye/-alcohol-a-quranic-perspective/696946700349378
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Peace
Forbid or Prohibit to you all is a direct command, whereas Avoid is advisory i.e at your own dicretion. Is it so difficult? Anyway, every law in the Qur'an is a recommendation only ( No Conpulsion to follow).
Peace
Of course there is compulsion to follow IF you choose Islam. As the good book says - Enter into Islam completely.
whereas Avoid is advisory i.e at your own dicretion. Is it so difficult?
Here is the problem - you are deliberately avoiding NOT talking about the verses. . .
The verse forbidding Alcohol is a DIRECT COMMAND. And it is not left at one's own discretion. For example praying does not say "We have made lawful praying" No. It says "Pray" - command.
Arabic has a special form to convey direct commands - the imperative verb form - al- Fael al-Amr
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I think that word 'sakaran' would be better translated/interpreted as 'juice(s)', because it would make sense to use grapes and fruits to make juice rather than wine/intoxicants and have it contradict the other verses where it tells us to stay away from it, unless I've totally missed something (note I have like really basic knowledge in arabic so I don't know much). Also that word, I think it's 'khamra'.. Does it means intoxicants, or 'intoxicating'?
The word Sa Ki Ra - means 'to be or get drunk' so it is pretty impossible for the word 'sakaran' to mean "Grape Juice". There is no contradiction between any verses - and you have not pointed any out either.
Meaning of words are not really decided on your own personal logic - but by lexicons and history of that particular word.
Also that word, I think it's 'khamra'.. Does it means intoxicants, or 'intoxicating'?
Khmar means the "intoxicant" that is anything brewed beverage that makes you intoxicated. The secondary meaning and usage of the word is "Intoxication".
I have studied Classical and Modern Standard Arabic - and I am not a Native Arab.
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@The_chimp, in regards to the word sa ki ra, there was a verse I think you mentioned that said something along the lines of 'you use grapes to make wine (sakaran), in that is for those who think'.. or something along those lines. Now if that word's meaning is 'to get drunk', how come it seems to shed a positive light on the fact you can make wine out of grapes? (shedding of positive light on the verse is my opinion/interpretation, not fact)
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Alcohol use from a quranic perspective
In the Quran, the Arabic word ?khamar? is used for intoxicants. The definition of ?khamar? is any agent that veils the mind and it is clear that alcohol is part of it. As per 590, we are told that intoxicants in general are the agents of the Devil by which he causes animosity and hatred among people (591). Believers are told to avoid the devil.
2291 tells us that intoxicants (khamar) are sin or cause harm (isthmun) but also tells us that we can get some benefits out of them.
These verses should be sufficient to consider alcohol as a sin to be avoided. And for any sincere believer, if God says to avoid it, we should avoid it. Some insist that ?avoid? is not ?forbid?. However, in 2230, God asks us as to avoid foulness of idols and false statement. Are a little foulness of idols or some false statements allowed?
We cannot conclude from these verses alone that alcohol is forbidden as it has been rightly pointed out that, nowhere in the Quran, there exists a verse where God explicitly says that it is a forbidden (haram).
In fact, the Quran does make a relation between intoxicants and prohibition not in a single verse but by using cross reference.
I 7.33, the prophet is told to say that his Lord has forbidden (harama) immoralities, sin (isthma) oppression, association with God or to tell something about God out of knowledge. Here I have given the word in Arabic between brackets so that I cannot be accused of false translation or distorting meaning of words
From 2219 khamar is isthm
From 733 Isthm is Haram
Through syllogism, it can be easily concluded that ?khamar? is ?haram? that is intoxicants including alcohol are forbidden
431 goes even further and tells us to avoid sins that we are forbidden. In other words, forbidden things which include sins (733) which themselves include intoxicants (2219) are to be avoided and this is in complete harmony with 590
What about the benefits?
Surely, in the intoxicants there are numerous benefits especially in the medical field as pain killers, drug detoxification, anesthesia, in some neurological and neuromuscular diseases as for cannabis. One may consider the social effect of disinhibition and euphoria as a benefit. It may even have some gustatory benefit. The Quran does not deny this as per 2219. The problem with these recreational benefits is that the benefits come alongside impaired judgement and as we have seen, as from a low dose, we are not in full control of our utterings. Things that are not meant to be said are uttered and may be the cause of great deception and regret. The benefit is thus outweighed by the detrimental effect of impaired judgement
No sincere believer can disobey God, when he is told to avoid intoxicants, for his own pleasure. As for the medical benefit, we can surely find clauses in the Quran that suspend this prohibition. In 2173, certain foods considered as sin that are forbidden, are no longer sin if taken under duress or for necessity of life (life-saving). We understand from this verse that what is considered a sin normally is not considered as a sin under particular circumstances.
Speaking about some benefits of alcohol (2219) does not suspend the prohibition on alcohol but it is some particular circumstances that can. 2173 goes even further and tells us not to desire it and not to transgress. It implies that if there is an alternative, the suspension is void.
What about 443?
443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe?
443 is used as an argument to say that God only specified not to approach Salat (prayer) while intoxicated. In my humble opinion, this verse has been wrongly interpreted both by the proponents who believe that alcohol is allowed and by the traditionalists. They both believe that this verse is speaking specifically about intoxicants. For the former, this is a proof that intoxicants are allowed even if it is severely discouraged. For the latter, this verse (or part of it) has been abrogated by the ban on alcohol and came during the process of revelation as a gradual evolution of the muslim community preparing them for the definitive ban.
In fact this verse is not talking about intoxicants but about the condition of prayer. Elsewhere in the Quran, other conditions have been set like cleanliness, sincerity or facing toward the Qibla. This can be understood more clearly with the following example. Suppose your teacher tells you not to cheat during your examination. This command relates only to the condition of the examination to be valid. Similarly in 443, it is the validity of prayer that is being discussed and not intoxicant itself.
Moreover, the verse is not inferring that intoxicants may be used outside prayer. There is a fallacy in logic here. The teacher that tells you not to cheat in the examination is not inferring that you may cheat outside the examination room.
The argument of the traditionalists that this verse is abrogated is also completely illogical. This is an easy way to discard things that one doesn?t understand. The belief of the gradual evolution of society sounds plausible. But will God leave a verse in his complete Book that is no longer valid? Abrogating this verse means that they also see this verse as related to intoxicants whereas it is related to the condition of prayer.
One may ask why God mention only intoxication, among all the sins, to invalidate prayer. This seems logical as nobody can lie, cheat, rob during prayers but there is a physical possibility to pray while intoxicated. Furthermore this state is mentioned together with the state of ?junub? (condition after a sexual intercourse and before taking a bath) further emphasizing that this verse is about the condition of prayer and not about sexual relation either.
443 goes even further specifying that it is acute intoxication that invalidates prayer as you may not know what you are saying. Prayers should be done when you are aware of your utterances. God is his great wisdom left the door of repentance and asking for help (two main purposes of prayer) open even if you suffer from a chronic intoxication provided you are willing to help yourself according to the big picture we get from the Quran that God will not change your state if you are not willing to change yourself.
Final thoughts
Today it is a known fact that alcohol is a major problem in society. In a country like France 10% of the population have a major problem with alcohol. In some regions, this percentage is even higher.
God, in the Quran, declared it a sin (2219), a work of Satan (590; 591) and made it forbidden (733).
The Quran does inform us that there are some benefits but advises us that the harm is much greater that the benefit (2219). Under duress and in case of necessity of life, these products may be used with moderation and not seeking for transgression (2173).
431 informs us that sins may be forgiven. It is understood that sins are forgiven when we ask for forgiveness and this can be done through prayers. 443 sets the absence of acute intoxication as a pre requisite for prayer as, during this time, one should have the mastery of one?s sayings.
Quranic verses on intoxicants are consistent with themselves and with the spirit of the Quran. We understand that God forbids alcohol (and all intoxicants) for recreational purposes but allows it in case of necessity. This is the wisest command for us and this is not surprising. Who can know us better than ourselves if it?s not our Creator, Al Hakim (The Wise).you can visit the whole article on https//www.facebook.com/notes/khaleel-joomye/-alcohol-a-quranic-perspective/696946700349378
We cannot conclude from these verses alone that alcohol is forbidden as it has been rightly pointed out that, nowhere in the Quran, there exists a verse where God explicitly says that it is a forbidden (haram).
That is incorrect. Verse 590 explicitly forbids Alcohol. It is no good trying to find opt outs by the word "Haram" as commands are NOT conveyed by this one particular verb or its opposite .
For example - the command to convey "Praying" is not communicated by using "We have made it Halal for you to pray" rather the Quran uses imperative from of "Establish" to convey command of praying.
Hence - the above is simply desperate nit-picking to find a way out.
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@The_chimp, in regards to the word sa ki ra, there was a verse I think you mentioned that said something along the lines of 'you use grapes to make wine (sakaran), in that is for those who think'.. or something along those lines. Now if that word's meaning is 'to get drunk', how come it seems to shed a positive light on the fact you can make wine out of grapes? (shedding of positive light on the verse is my opinion/interpretation, not fact)
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
It is not really grapes - but fruit of palm tree - dates and others. To the main issue
The verse is NOT talking positively or negatively about wine-making. It simply mentions that is what people do with it. Let us read
And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision.
This is information giving - people get food and make wine from fruit of the date palm
In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
And then we are asked to ponder this.
So where is the positive aspect of wine? There isn't. As to the negative there are several verses. The only verse that mention positive aspect;
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess ." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses that you might give thought.
But even this condemns wine. And then the verses 590-91 forbid it outright.
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Yeah it makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying that for me
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Peace
If alcohol was haram/forbidden then why this verse 4715?
15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
I believe that if Allah says haram He means haram and if Allah say avoid He does not mean it is haram. why do people think they know better than The Author of The Qur'an ?
Peace
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Peace
If alcohol was haram/forbidden then why this verse 4715?
15 (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
I believe that if Allah says haram He means haram and if Allah say avoid He does not mean it is haram. why do people think they know better than The Author of The Qur'an ?
Peace
So what do you think "avoid" means? What do you think the end result is?
Meaning of Avoid
"keep away from or stop oneself from doing (something)."
As I have explained - Arabic has a linguistic form to convey direct commands - for example command to pray is not by using the word "Halal" opposite of Haram. But the word used is "Establish" - yet we understand this as direct command.
As to the verse you mention
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It is regarding paradise - get to that paradise then legality of "Wine" is different.
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The verse makes it clear - earthly food and heavenly food is different - so get to that heaven and the "nature" of the wine will be different.
As the verse 590-91 make it clear - this "wine" is enmity of Satan and it keeps one away from remembrance of Allah. So, it is unlikely the wine provided by the almighty will not do that.
why do people think they know better than The Author of The Qur'an ?
No why don't you answer that . . . and also answer is Alcohol banned or not?
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Okay, from this forum it seems obvious that alcohol is not singled out as topic for discussion; ANYTHING that intoxicates/befogs is included. As such, here are some links to highlight the absurdity of outright banning anything capable of intoxication.
http//www.fantazia.org.uk/drugs/oxygen.htm
Oxygen as a recreational drug. An oxygen bar, no less! That's right, the oxygen that we are breathing right now can be used as an intoxicant.
Here is an article on water intoxication
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
Here is an article on how much alcohol it actually takes to intoxicate a normal person of given weight
http//www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html
So, if alcohol is an intoxicant in any amount (as some argue), it can be inferred that oxygen and water are likewise intoxicants in any amount, right?
Oh, take a look on this list and see what other intoxicants are being consumed!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_intoxicant
Put down the coffee, and the chai, and the tea! Caffeine is a drug. And the pipe, cigarette, and hookah! Nicotine is clearly a drug. Nutmeg and chocolate are drugs. http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Nutmeg *** http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Cacao No extreme is too great, because it is CLEAR that intoxicants are prohibited! <sarcasm>
So then, is it intoxicants or intoxication that should be guarded against? <rhetorical question>
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Oxygen as a recreational drug. An oxygen bar, no less! That's right, the oxygen that we are breathing right now can be used as an intoxicant.
Herein lies absurdity of your objections - oxygen that we breathe is not harmful nor an intoxicant. If it was we would be going round high - but we are not. Hence there is clear difference between what we breathe and a concentrated from which gives some kind of high.
Here is what your link says
"Yes we breath it all day long but some believe in concentrated form when breathed intensely for short periods that it can produce a high to replace the need for illegal alternatives."
Doesn't tell much does it. What kind of high? Is it a stimulant like coffee, tea, qat?
Here is an article on water intoxication
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication
"Water intoxication, also known as water poisoning or dilutional hyponatremia, is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside safe limits by over-hydration."
There you go . . . enough said on that. Your own "source" is against your argument and reveals the underlying absurdity.
Here is something for you to ponder upon
How do you think secular law deals with the difference between these intoxicants and those that actually cause damage?
Here is an article on how much alcohol it actually takes to intoxicate a normal person of given weight
http//www.brad21.org/bac_charts.html
So, if alcohol is an intoxicant in any amount (as some argue), it can be inferred that oxygen and water are likewise intoxicants in any amount, right?
Other than the fact that water and oxygen intoxication actually refers to something else. And to the fact that - alcoholic drinks and drugs - their primary function is to alter state of human mind and body functions in some way and this is obviously not true for Water and Oxygen. The two are very different in nature.
Put down the coffee, and the chai, and the tea! Caffeine is a drug. And the pipe, cigarette, and hookah! Nicotine is clearly a drug. Nutmeg and chocolate are drugs. http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Nutmeg *** http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Cacao No extreme is too great, because it is CLEAR that intoxicants are prohibited! <sarcasm>
Tea and Coffee are stimulants - they produce a stimulating effect. Nicotine is a highly addictive and dangerous drug and it is equally fobidden in Islam. Once again the nature of the two is different. I have not yet heard of grave illnesses associated with Tea or Coffee.
Chocolate isn't a drug and neither is nutmeg and neither are they taken as drug.
I think you know that your objectives and so weak they flop over with a delicate push . . . but at least by the end of this no stone would be left unturned - and there will not really be any doubt left that Alcohol is banned in Islam.
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Peace,
In fact I have stopped drinking coffee lately due to its effects. But I have a problem that I drink too much if I let myself drink.
God bless you
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Oxygen taken in high concentration causes euphoria; this is the reason for recreational oxygen bars.
Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous, this is a truism. It is the same for all substances, including oxygen and water. Poison is by definition harmful.
Nutmeg is a drug, chocolate is a drug, and caffeine is also a drug. It isn't necessary to go into all of the ways that people use the drugs, the side effects or pharmacology of them--but links have been provided anyway. Stimulants are by definition drugs, and the prevalence of them doesn't change that fact one iota--it reinforces the fact that they are recreational drugs.
Here is an additional link for caffeine
http//www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Caffeine
Oxygen as we breathe does not cause intoxication unless concentrated. Small quantities of alcohol also do not cause intoxication. At my mass, I could imbibe several servings of alcohol before becoming intoxicated. So then, it is between a rock and a hard place for the logic of those that claim that alcohol is totally forbidden. If it is totally forbidden, then it follows that anything else capable of intoxication is also forbidden--including oxygen, water, chocolate, nutmeg, caffeine, nicotine, etc. If, on the other hand, it is intoxication that is totally forbidden, then a believer can enjoy any substance INCLUDING ALCOHOL so long as the quantity is not such as to cause intoxication.
It is still unproven that either intoxicants or intoxication are forbidden; I'm merely playing "devil's advocate" to this position. Some people have the understanding that one or the other is forbidden, and no personal attack is intended. Information is being shared, and everyone can use their own best judgment.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe "This is lawful, and that is forbidden;" that you seek to invent lies about GOD. Those who invent lies about GOD will not succeed.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Peace,
In fact I have stopped drinking coffee lately due to its effects. But I have a problem that I drink too much if I let myself drink.
God bless you
I never drink the foul stuff. Tea - that is different matter. Classy people drink tea. Not your blend rubbish - and not from a clay mug!
You want a proper tea - Ceylon or Assam pure tea. Fine bone china - and proper tea pot.
Quality biscuits at the side!
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Oxygen taken in high concentration causes euphoria; this is the reason for recreational oxygen bars.
But it is not a drug/intoxicant - neither is the primary purpose of Oxygen to be these. Whereas the products under discussion are primarily used as narcotics .
In desperation - you are
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Repeating the same thing - without addressing the objections raised against your arguments.
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Committing logical fallacies - trying to force those points that are clearly outside the context and scope of the argument to bolster your own argument and to seek credence from those points is logically fallacious argument.
We already know things like Chocolate, Oxygen, etc, are not drugs and hence are not under consideration.
Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous, this is a truism. It is the same for all substances, including oxygen and water. Poison is by definition harmful.
Doh! And there we have it . . . Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous so in other words we are NOT Talking about any substance - we are talking about particular substances. We are simply talking about those substances that are PRIMARILY used as narcotics.
Nutmeg is a drug, chocolate is a drug, and caffeine is also a drug. It isn't necessary to go into all of the ways that people use the drugs, the side effects or pharmacology of them--but links have been provided anyway. Stimulants are by definition drugs, and the prevalence of them doesn't change that fact one iota--it reinforces the fact that they are recreational drugs.
Don't repeat yourself. As you have declared every substance to be er . . . "poisonous" then obviously the two mentioned above are harmful.
Now - Nutmeg is a spice - not a narcotic.
Neither is chocolate.
Mere repetition of your previous arguments will not help you out.
Small quantities of alcohol also do not cause intoxication.
So what is small? For example all fruit juices naturally are slightly that is very minutely alcoholic - but again those are outside the scope of the argument.
At my mass, I could imbibe several servings of alcohol before becoming intoxicated. So then, it is between a rock and a hard place for the logic of those that claim that alcohol is totally forbidden. If it is totally forbidden, then it follows that anything else capable of intoxication is also forbidden--including oxygen, water, chocolate, nutmeg, caffeine, nicotine
Fallacious logic! Ha! It is your own logic that is faulty. You have desperately tried to make non-narcotics into narcotics. And wrongly.
A brewed beverage that intoxicates in forbidden - wine, beer, spirits... and what do you argue with? Yeah, chocolate, oxygen, water...
If, on the other hand, it is intoxication that is totally forbidden, then a believer can enjoy any substance INCLUDING ALCOHOL so long as the quantity is not such as to cause intoxication.
And - I think you already know - both are forbidden. A beer at 5% volume of alcohol is forbidden
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Khamar - brewed beverages are forbidden.
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Sukur - anything that is addictive and primary purpose is as a narcotic is forbidden.
Hence one cannot take a single sip of the stuff.
It is still unproven that either intoxicants or intoxication are forbidden; I'm merely playing "devil's advocate" to this position. Some people have the understanding that one or the other is forbidden, and no personal attack is intended. Information is being shared, and everyone can use their own best judgment.
No offense - but you are resorting to being untruthful. If it is not proven - then why do you fail to address my points? Especially the verses 590-91?
Information is being shared, and everyone can use their own best judgment.
Cop out - on issues on cannot apply their own understandings - this leads to anarchy. Islam is NOT for anarchy and chaos.
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Peace,
I still drink tea. It is quite okay, but not just anything goes down in term of brands and types.
PS. nutmeg in large doses may give narcotic effects. However, it is required to consume lots of it for that. But the effects may be very intense and with delusions/hallucinations.
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Peace,
I still drink tea. It is quite okay, but not just anything goes down in term of brands and types.
PS. nutmeg in large doses may give narcotic effects. However, it is required to consume lots of it for that. But the effects may be very intense and with delusions/hallucinations.
Nah - you are missing out - try a tea that isn't a blend - such as your Tetley's or PG Tips . Quality tea is something special - if made properly.
As to Nutmeg
In low doses, nutmeg produces no noticeable physiological or neurological response, but in large doses, raw nutmeg has psychoactive effects.
This is fine.
However
In case reports intoxications with nutmeg had effects that varied from person to person, but were often reported to be an excited and confused state with headaches, nausea and dizziness, dry mouth, bloodshot eyes and memory disturbances. Nutmeg was also reported to induce hallucinogenic effects, such as visual distortions and paranoid ideation. In the reports nutmeg intoxication took several hours before maximum effect was reached. Effects and after-effects lasted up to several days.
This isn't.
But here are few things - this isn't really a narcotic as such - one from which people seek pleasure. There are no street level drug dealers selling nutmeg!
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Peace,
The problem with nutmeg as a recreational drug is that it takes substantial amounts of it to get intoxicated and then people who have tried have reported that it is many unpleasant sensations while affected. And you get a very dry tongue and heavy head the day after. It is simply not worthwhile to abuse it. However, in mild doses it might feel pleasant with nutmeg from a personal side, but never for recreational use as to get high on it.
I have considered drinking nutmeg tea as a relaxation, it is awesome, when you drink it just to calm your senses. But of course we may respond differently to various substances.
PS. I have actually tried to overdose on nutmeg myself while I was crazy in younger ages (or more crazy than now).
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My comments are in red.
The_Chimp, there is a reason you are on my ignore list. I'm going to tear through your arguments with some cold hard facts.
But it is not a drug/intoxicant - neither is the primary purpose of Oxygen to be these. Whereas the products under discussion are primarily used as narcotics .
As proven with the example of oxygen bars, oxygen can be used as a drug--it doesn't matter if this is the primary purpose or not. At an oxygen bar, oxygen affects mood and behavior and is a drug.
In desperation - you are
- Repeating the same thing - without addressing the objections raised against your arguments.
If I repeat things, it is because what I repeat are FACTS and they seem invisible to some people. You are the only one raising any objections so far, and it is only now that you have provoked me enough to respond to you.
- Committing logical fallacies - trying to force those points that are clearly outside the context and scope of the argument to bolster your own argument and to seek credence from those points is logically fallacious argument.
We already know things like Chocolate, Oxygen, etc, are not drugs and hence are not under consideration.
Since I have posted links showing how they are used as drugs, your argument is clearly mistaken. rotfl Reading is fundamental. Since they can be used as drugs, they are entirely valid for consideration. Look at the subject "Alcohol/intoxicants."
Doh! And there we have it . . . Any substance taken in large enough quantity is poisonous so in other words we are NOT Talking about any substance - we are talking about particular substances. We are simply talking about those substances that are PRIMARILY used as narcotics.
Did you or did you not post about "those that actually cause damage?" Well, they can ALL cause damage. Further, you are inserting a stipulation about primary use. Does this mean that sniffing glue or huffing paint or using other substances as drugs is okay since it isn't a primary use? Get real!
Don't repeat yourself. As you have declared every substance to be er . . . "poisonous" then obviously the two mentioned above are harmful.
You are now repeating yourself about me repeating myself--and you repeat your arguments (without additional facts) throughout your message. What is the proper label for one who engages in hypocrisy?
Now - Nutmeg is a spice - not a narcotic.
Did you bother to follow the link? Did you notice that it is on a forum about drugs? Did you read about how people use it to get high?
Neither is chocolate.
Read my post immediately above. People do use cacao and chocolate as drugs, and a link was provided to prove it.
Mere repetition of your previous arguments will not help you out.
I require no help against you. If this were a battle of the wits, you are disarmed. There's none so blind as those who will not see.
So what is small? For example all fruit juices naturally are slightly that is very minutely alcoholic - but again those are outside the scope of the argument.
Why is it outside the scope of argument? Because you say so? Because it weakens your position? ) I especially like how you claim that a beer is forbidden in an amount that can't by itself intoxicate, but juice with natural alcohol is allowed. You are truly a shining wit!
Fallacious logic! Ha! It is your own logic that is faulty. You have desperately tried to make non-narcotics into narcotics. And wrongly.
A brewed beverage that intoxicates in forbidden - wine, beer, spirits... and what do you argue with? Yeah, chocolate, oxygen, water...
I compare intoxicants to intoxicants. So sorry if this boggles your mind.
And - I think you already know - both are forbidden. A beer at 5% volume of alcohol is forbidden
So you claim, and without authority.
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Khamar - brewed beverages are forbidden.
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Sukur - anything that is addictive and primary purpose is as a narcotic is forbidden.
Well, stop drinking tea if these are your understandings.
Hence one cannot take a single sip of the stuff.
You are enough to drive a person to drink. I'll drink what I please. If you try to force others, ISA, you will come to the ending that you richly deserve.
No offense - but you are resorting to being untruthful. If it is not proven - then why do you fail to address my points? Especially the verses 590-91?
Did you read the part about "devil's advocate?" Your "points" have already been thoroughly addressed--and I wouldn't want to repeat myself! )
Cop out - on issues on cannot apply their own understandings - this leads to anarchy. Islam is NOT for anarchy and chaos.
Actually, there are multiple understandings and multiple ways to do things. There are many ways to pray, for instance. Tell me true, are you applying your own understanding to the position being presented, or are you taking somebody else as an authority? hmm Others apply their best understanding to AQ and come with a different conclusion than you. Are you so arrogant that you think that you are better than others, or do you admit to taking partners?
Beg pardon to all if this post is snarky--I feel that I have been provoked past decency and have attempted to keep things civil and relevant without personal attacks. I recognize that there in no "winning" here.
Proverbs 264 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
Proverbs 265 Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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@ Abdul Hadi
Beg pardon to all if this post is snarky--I feel that I have been provoked past decency and have attempted to keep things civil and relevant without personal attacks. I recognize that there in no "winning" here.
Huh?
I have not made a single attack on your person. Find me one such line? This is a baseless accusation - remains to be proven. I attack your views and your position - and that is all.
I have not made a single attack on you. I think this is simply because your arguments have failed - now you seek credence. But - please - find me one line that attacks you . . .