A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily

Wakas

peace good logic,

I take a different view from those you conversed with.

The above is your claim but both Mazhar and Joseph use the same verses as you to claim 5 daily salat

... the times or periods of our five daily salat (2458, 1778, 2238, 11114)...

In this thread I am only interested in the alleged 5 daily salat timings as per Quran, nothing else.

In this respect, it seems your view is either identical or differs only slightly. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate you highlighting exactly where you differ when it comes to the timings.

Scribbler

peace good logic,

The above is your claim but both Mazhar and Joseph use the same verses as you to claim 5 daily salat

In this thread I am only interested in the alleged 5 daily salat timings as per Quran, nothing else.

In this respect, it seems your view is either identical or differs only slightly. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate you highlighting exactly where you differ when it comes to the timings.

Dear Wakas,

Peace be with you.

Can you kindly share where exactly is your objection against brother Mazhar and Joseph's understanding of the five timings?

Regards.

Wakas

peace,

Can you kindly share where exactly is your objection against brother Mazhar and Joseph's understanding of the five timings?

Yes, see a few posts back in this thread, reply #42.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg345794#msg345794

Scribbler

peace,

Yes, see a few posts back in this thread, reply #42.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg345794#msg345794

Dear brother Wakas,

May peace be with you.

I have read the lengthy discussion between you and Joseph. In my humble view, I can't seem to reject brother Joseph's understanding of the timings, and neither can I outright reject your arguments, and honestly speaking, anyone of you could be right. I have noted that brother Joseph justifies the five timings with an understanding which is 'indirect', and you seem to be looking for explicit mention of the five timings. I think it is best if we can establish the salat five times a day as opposed to two times, since the more you do it, the better it will be for one's soul, no? But depending on our ability and current circumstances, I would conclude that we should do it at least two times a day, and a maximum of five times a day.

Regards.

good_logic

Peace Wakas;

FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME
I believe this is where God gave us the times for the Salat in the Quran

The Dawn salat (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11114, 2458
The Noon salat (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 1778 and 3018
The Afternoon salat ( or middle ) (Asr in Arabic), given in 2238
The sunset salt (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11114
The Night salat (Isha in Arabic), given in 2458

Note These are time periods ( not names as some wrongly assume!!)of salat.

Peace to you

Scribbler

Peace Wakas;

FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME
I believe this is where God gave us the times for the Salat in the Quran

The Dawn salat (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11114, 2458
The Noon salat (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 1778 and 3018
The Afternoon salat ( or middle ) (Asr in Arabic), given in 2238
The sunset salt (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11114
The Night salat (Isha in Arabic), given in 2458

Note These are time periods ( not names as some wrongly assume!!)of salat.

Peace to you

Salam Alaykum, brother.

Thanks for the post. After pondering for a while, I have start to think that the five timings are indeed mentioned in the Quran, but without specific names as many assume it should be, for example salat-ul-fajr and salat-ul-isha. If one looks for names, then there is no way he/she could ever come up to the conclusion of it being five times a day.

Regards.

Wakas

peace Scribbler,

In my humble view, I can't seem to reject brother Joseph's understanding of the timings, and neither can I outright reject your arguments, and honestly speaking, anyone of you could be right. I have noted that brother Joseph justifies the five timings with an understanding which is 'indirect', and you seem to be looking for explicit mention of the five timings. I think it is best if we can establish the salat five times a day as opposed to two times, since the more you do it, the better it will be for one's soul, no? But depending on our ability and current circumstances, I would conclude that we should do it at least two times a day, and a maximum of five times a day.

Firstly, it is not just about the explicit mention of the five timings, that is only one aspect.

Whilst I may agree that it is difficult to select one view over another sometimes, in this case it is very easy to determine which option causes the most unanswered questions, issues/problems/inconsistencies/etc. With regard to this, the view of a minimum of 2 salat daily for the mumineen, is by far, the least problematic, in my view. I recommend readers to simply make a list of issues for each option, e.g. 5 salat daily, 3 salat daily, 2 salat daily, no salat daily etc.

See which one is the most sound and go with that. Continue to increase one's knowledge etc.

Re more salat the better
I do not see the regular/timed salat for the mumineen as a ritual prayer as I briefly discuss in my article. But in any case, in general, in life there must be balance between knowledge or spirituality - and application or good deeds.
So I do not necessarily agree more salat the better, but that does not mean more is wrong. If one is getting the balance right, then that is up to them.

Wakas

peace good logic,

I note you did not highlight how your view differs.

As I said, you cite the exact same verses as Mazhar and Joseph do, thus your view will run into the exact same issues as I have already mentioned.

Mazhar

peace good logic,

I note you did not highlight how your view differs.

As I said, you cite the exact same verses as Mazhar and Joseph do, thus your view will run into the exact same issues as I have already mentioned.

Peace Wakas,

The response to Reply 2 and 3 is still awaited which were the clarifications about your "objections" on this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182

Emphasis Salat is prescribed with reference to time. Salat of each time has no specific name other than Salat. It has only relation with time.

Wakas

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

GODsubmitter

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

excellent

Mazhar

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day

Wakas

Oh dear, the first reply and it's not in the requested format.

Wakas

peace all,

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

Since no-one accepted the challenge in the manner requested, I decided to write a detailed article so students of Quran can weigh and consider the information for themselves.

All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran

Click http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Mazhar

"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

The first step is to determine the word as to which part of speech it relates and to identify the phrases.

and are possessive phrases.

Phrase It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic . When two or more words are joined they constitute a Phrase or a Sentence-.

In English, possessive words or phrases exist for nouns and most pronouns, as well as some noun phrases. These can play the roles of determiners (also called possessive adjectives when corresponding to a pronoun) or of nouns.

Possessive determiners constitute a sub-class of determiners which modify a noun by attributing possession (or other sense of belonging) to someone or something. They are also known as possessive adjectives.

In Arabic possessive phrase is called

Possessive/Relative Phrase-"the Construct"

Salat is time bound. Time is determined by the movement of the Sun. The above two words are NOT the names, but possessive phrases-single unit where the second noun with definite article is indicative of the point in time. Point in time does not mean duration.

Wakas

Br. Mazhar,
salaam/peace.

I know point in time does not necessarily mean duration. You, like myself, use verses to determine time parameters of salat. I am simply trying to ascertain what verses you use and how you use them in a clear manner so we can actually examine your view.

I will try one last time to clarify my request.

From here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg346685#msg346685
I said

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

In my article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
I said

A relatively common problem in such articles is that whilst verses are cited to indicate times, the specific times are not clearly explained and defined. This is likely because specifics do not exist. For clarity, it is preferable to have the following basic information made clear IF it is available, for each salat

name/reference for salat as per Quran, if any (verse references for this)
salat time range start point and end point (verse references for this)

For sake of argument, let's assume everything you said about grammar in your post above is correct, my request does NOT depend on whether you or I view it as a name or not, all I am requesting are the salat references and times of each. I actually have little problem accepting what you said is correct, because whether it is a name or not is irrelevant, as both options (i.e. name or not name) are covered in my request.

So let me clarify and make it as simple as I possibly can. Pay VERY close attention to this next part.

For each of the 5 salat daily in your view, in sequence, please provide these 3 pieces of information

the reference for the salat from The Quran, IF it has one (verse references for this)
i.e. whatever you refer to it as, I dont care if you refer to it as "1st salat of the day" or even if it has no reference/term as long as you clearly state so.

salat start point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the start point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.

salat end point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the end point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.

Please note I will not respond if you refer to your diagram, which I personally find unclear, and it is likely no coincidence no one on this forum has ever used it (nor your article) to explain to others when 5 salat daily from Quran are meant to be performed.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

In her book Muhammad, A Biography of the Prophet, Harper, 1992, pp. 148 and 163, Armstrong mentioned - without quoting sources - that the Arabs during the time of Muhammad also practiced three daily Salat prayers similar to the Jews, i.e. morning, noon and evening. In Quran 11114, three Salat prayers are described at both ends of the day, and at night'
Since the " Qibla" change or as you described yourself, after the " Miraaj" they practiced 5 daily salat prayers.

The Quran lists all five daily prayer times, from dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset/evening to the night, see 2458, 1778, 2238.

These "Salawat" must be observed at specific times during the day (4103)

The Dawn salat must be observed from dawn until before sunrise.
The Noon salat is due when the sun start to decline from its highest point at noon up to mid afternoon.
The Afternoon salat can be observed from mid afternoon until prior to sunset.
The Sunset prayer becomes due after sunset up to when twilight disappears.
The night salat can be observed after the twilight disappears from the sky up to dawn.

These are the windows that will be open for each salat. Once the window closes the salat cannot be made up.

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

Peace to you.

Mazhar

Salamun alaikum;

Lane says Basic perception He clave, ; cut, or divided, lengthwise this is the primary signification, whence several others, to be mentioned below, are derived Time reference the light of morning; (Mgh, K because it is a cleaving of the darkness from before the light; (Mgh i. e., the redness of the sun in the darkness of night; (K the in the end of the night is like the in the beginning thereof (S, O) it is twofold the first is called ; that which rises without extending laterally, (, Mgh, Msb,) which appears black, presenting itself like an obstacle (&#1575

2, 3, 4 These are mentioned in one compound sentence

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif

The figure of speech is climax; placement of words in ascending order towards the incoming moments of night.

The two timings for obeying the command are

It a possessive phrase for which reason Noon of first DUAL noun is dropped the two visual transitions-edges of the bright day tapering towards the incoming night.

The fourth is at
"the early moments of the night". This sentence/time is defined by referring to the Sun
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.78.gif
"the point in time of rubbing and smoothly getting away of the Sun to the boundary of night getting cool and dark".

and

5 the definite time is

Mazhar

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif

I wish someone who knows the scientific delicacies of revolving of day and night reflects on the choice of words and their placements in this compound sentence. The day is ascending and the moments of night are approaching-drawing near to it.

diamantinehoneybunch

Salat, SJD and RK3 are often mentioned separately.