A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily

Wakas

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

GODsubmitter

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

excellent

Mazhar

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day

Wakas

Oh dear, the first reply and it's not in the requested format.

Wakas

peace all,

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

Since no-one accepted the challenge in the manner requested, I decided to write a detailed article so students of Quran can weigh and consider the information for themselves.

All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran

Click http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Mazhar

"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

The first step is to determine the word as to which part of speech it relates and to identify the phrases.

and are possessive phrases.

Phrase It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic . When two or more words are joined they constitute a Phrase or a Sentence-.

In English, possessive words or phrases exist for nouns and most pronouns, as well as some noun phrases. These can play the roles of determiners (also called possessive adjectives when corresponding to a pronoun) or of nouns.

Possessive determiners constitute a sub-class of determiners which modify a noun by attributing possession (or other sense of belonging) to someone or something. They are also known as possessive adjectives.

In Arabic possessive phrase is called

Possessive/Relative Phrase-"the Construct"

Salat is time bound. Time is determined by the movement of the Sun. The above two words are NOT the names, but possessive phrases-single unit where the second noun with definite article is indicative of the point in time. Point in time does not mean duration.

Wakas

Br. Mazhar,
salaam/peace.

I know point in time does not necessarily mean duration. You, like myself, use verses to determine time parameters of salat. I am simply trying to ascertain what verses you use and how you use them in a clear manner so we can actually examine your view.

I will try one last time to clarify my request.

From here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg346685#msg346685
I said

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

In my article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
I said

A relatively common problem in such articles is that whilst verses are cited to indicate times, the specific times are not clearly explained and defined. This is likely because specifics do not exist. For clarity, it is preferable to have the following basic information made clear IF it is available, for each salat

name/reference for salat as per Quran, if any (verse references for this)
salat time range start point and end point (verse references for this)

For sake of argument, let's assume everything you said about grammar in your post above is correct, my request does NOT depend on whether you or I view it as a name or not, all I am requesting are the salat references and times of each. I actually have little problem accepting what you said is correct, because whether it is a name or not is irrelevant, as both options (i.e. name or not name) are covered in my request.

So let me clarify and make it as simple as I possibly can. Pay VERY close attention to this next part.

For each of the 5 salat daily in your view, in sequence, please provide these 3 pieces of information

the reference for the salat from The Quran, IF it has one (verse references for this)
i.e. whatever you refer to it as, I dont care if you refer to it as "1st salat of the day" or even if it has no reference/term as long as you clearly state so.

salat start point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the start point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.

salat end point IF it has one (verse references for this)
Be as specific as you can for the end point IF it has one. If it does not have one just say so.

Please note I will not respond if you refer to your diagram, which I personally find unclear, and it is likely no coincidence no one on this forum has ever used it (nor your article) to explain to others when 5 salat daily from Quran are meant to be performed.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

In her book Muhammad, A Biography of the Prophet, Harper, 1992, pp. 148 and 163, Armstrong mentioned - without quoting sources - that the Arabs during the time of Muhammad also practiced three daily Salat prayers similar to the Jews, i.e. morning, noon and evening. In Quran 11114, three Salat prayers are described at both ends of the day, and at night'
Since the " Qibla" change or as you described yourself, after the " Miraaj" they practiced 5 daily salat prayers.

The Quran lists all five daily prayer times, from dawn, noon, afternoon, sunset/evening to the night, see 2458, 1778, 2238.

These "Salawat" must be observed at specific times during the day (4103)

The Dawn salat must be observed from dawn until before sunrise.
The Noon salat is due when the sun start to decline from its highest point at noon up to mid afternoon.
The Afternoon salat can be observed from mid afternoon until prior to sunset.
The Sunset prayer becomes due after sunset up to when twilight disappears.
The night salat can be observed after the twilight disappears from the sky up to dawn.

These are the windows that will be open for each salat. Once the window closes the salat cannot be made up.

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

Peace to you.

Mazhar

Salamun alaikum;

Lane says Basic perception He clave, ; cut, or divided, lengthwise this is the primary signification, whence several others, to be mentioned below, are derived Time reference the light of morning; (Mgh, K because it is a cleaving of the darkness from before the light; (Mgh i. e., the redness of the sun in the darkness of night; (K the in the end of the night is like the in the beginning thereof (S, O) it is twofold the first is called ; that which rises without extending laterally, (, Mgh, Msb,) which appears black, presenting itself like an obstacle (&#1575

2, 3, 4 These are mentioned in one compound sentence

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif

The figure of speech is climax; placement of words in ascending order towards the incoming moments of night.

The two timings for obeying the command are

It a possessive phrase for which reason Noon of first DUAL noun is dropped the two visual transitions-edges of the bright day tapering towards the incoming night.

The fourth is at
"the early moments of the night". This sentence/time is defined by referring to the Sun
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.78.gif
"the point in time of rubbing and smoothly getting away of the Sun to the boundary of night getting cool and dark".

and

5 the definite time is

Mazhar

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/011.%20Hud%20alaihissalm/11.114.gif

I wish someone who knows the scientific delicacies of revolving of day and night reflects on the choice of words and their placements in this compound sentence. The day is ascending and the moments of night are approaching-drawing near to it.

diamantinehoneybunch

Salat, SJD and RK3 are often mentioned separately.

rahenijaat1

TruthBehindIt

Salam and Peace....!

In Al-Quran 3 7, Allah mentions there are two type of Verses in The Book of Hidayah......"Mutashabihaat" and "Muhkamaat".

....."In it are clear verses, which are the foundation of the Book, and others (that are) allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is a deviation, they will follow that which is allegorical in them (verses), seeking mischief, and seeking (their own) interpretation of it. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those firm in knowledge say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And no one receives admonition except those with understanding." (3 7)

Some people....deviation in their hearts....seeking mischief.....seek their own INTERPRETATIONS of Mutashabihaat.

Now.....the point is .........what is the meaning of Mutashabihaat......I am not going to put dictionary meaning.
One thing we all know is that,...........Mutashabihaat are such Verses on which we can never become unanimous.....absolutely impossible.
Again.......Mutashabihaat Verses are those on which we are bound to have differences of opinions....for sure.

Unseen are described in similes, metaphors and allegories (Mutashaabihaat) for your understanding. But those who are given to crookedness in their hearts pursue the allegories and try to give them literal meanings, thus creating dissension of thought. None encompasses their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Hand, His Book of Decrees, the exact mode of revelation on the heart of the messengers, the Eternity) but God.

So.....everybody will have his own interpretaion of Mutashabihaat.........So far so good.

But bad aspect starts when some people try to impose their own interpretations of Mutashabihaat on others, and want them to follow it.....they are the ones for whom Allah says....."Then those in whose hearts is a deviation, they will follow that which is allegorical in them (verses), seeking mischief, and seeking (their own) interpretation of it."

This means, clearly.........that Mutashabihaat Verses can never be something we are Commanded to obey......because they can never become Muhkamaat.

Now, in my understanding.......all those Verses of Al Quran on which we differ, are Mutashabihaat...........and everyone of us has his own undertanding........some of those Verses are Verses in which we find the words "Salaat", "Sujood", "Ruku" etc.

All those who claim to follow Al Quran Alone.........some say there is no ritual Salaat.......some say, there are ritual Salaat also....some say five times a day....some say no only three times........some say only two times.
All trying to prove their interpretations putting before us Verses from Al Quran.....and all wish and insist their interpretation is best and must be followed.

The word in Al Quran......Salaat....for example........the Quran Aloners will never unite on one understanding (ritual, or not ritual)...........and as such, can never unite.....is Salaat (ritual, or not ritual) also not a Mutashabihaat....?

Disputing over the word "Salaat (is ritual, or is not ritual)".........will create distance among us and divide us.

Better do what you/we understand best..........the main thing is .........if we are really truthful, honest and sincere.........whatever we understand and follow.........Allah will be pleased.
The Creator who created us top to bottom.......knows what is in our hearts.

And Allah will not be please..........if anyone of us try to impose his own understanding/interpretation of the word "Salaat".

-----"(They say) ?Our Lord, let not our hearts deviate after when You have guided us, and bestow upon us mercy from Yourself. Indeed, You are the Bestower.? (3 8 )

If one understands truthfully, honestly and sincerely, there are rituals.......then he must do it.....
......if one understands truthfully, honestly and sincerely, there are no rituals........then don't do it.

If someone falls in physical sujood before Allah, who is there to object this act......if Allah is has no objections.

For ritual Salaat, any methodology is acceptable before Allah........if the ritual is for Allah Alone....and not for any ghairillah.

But...remember......the mankind does not need our rituals (if there is any).........the (oppressed) mankind needs our Attention, Goodness, Kindness, Help, Peace.

And Goodness is something on which no one of us/even mankind, can have different opinions.
And Goodness is fully mentioned in Al Quran.........and all those Verses mentioning Goodness....are MUHKAMAAT.

Goodness.........is an International (Natural) Language.
People of different nations, even if they dont understand each other's languages.............can be Good to one another.

Allah will accept all those truthful and sincere hearts that bows before Allah's Clear Commandments "MUHKAMAAT", which are Foundation of Deen, and if they are not followed, there is no Deen.

Mazhar

Salamun alaika,

Mutashabihaat A little concentration will tell that metaphors are not used in commands and injunctions.

"MUHKAMAAT" . Commands, injunctions, orders use imperative verbs. Salat is the object of imperative verb; hence it is not in the category of Mutashabihaat.

Moreover the conduct of scholars with tilted hearts is not with reference to ayat-Mutashabihaat but it is about the Qur'aan {minho-pronoun is masculine referring the whole Qur'aan]

Grand Qur'aan in the 21st Century

Miscellany of Grand Qur'aan Format and Organization; two types of unitary passages

Wakas

peace good logic,

I have already given you the references of the 5 daily salat earlier in the thread.

And I have already replied. You use the same verses and similar argument as I already discuss in the article.

I even asked you to exactly highlight wherein you differ with regard to timings. You highlighted ZERO differences.

Please note, that is not to say there is no differences but if you can't be bothered highlighting them or presenting the information in the requested format, then I will not respond.

The reason I used br. Joseph's article as the primary reference was he actually attempted to clarify each salat and its timing, thus making it easy to examine.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

I have given you my answers and reasons for 5 salat per day from Qoran.

I have also given you why I came to the conclusion of following the messenger. GOD always clarifies the disputes/disagreements by sending a messenger.

With all due respect, I close by wishing you well with your tasks.

May the Lord guide us to His true path.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

diamantinehoneybunch

Good Logic,

I know you meant salat with 2,4,4,3,4 units in each of 5 salats respectively, right? The salat units can be found NOWHERE in the Qur'an.

good_logic

Peace Yuliana.

I believe "salat" is preserved from Abraham. Including the units.

Qoran corrected only what was corrupted/lost...

We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Salat and the obligatory charity (Zakat)....

In fact, according to the Quran, Islam is called the religion of Abraham, and Muhammad was a follower of Abraham. So were Isaac, Ismail, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Jesus, and other messengers of God.

Abraham was indeed an exemplary vanguard in his submission to God, a monotheist who never worshiped idols. Because he was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

The practices have been preserved in their basic form since the time of Abraham despite the efforts of corruption and distortion by idol worshipers and disbelievers. Each messenger who came after Abraham purified and followed these practices in accordance .

That is my understanding.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

diamantinehoneybunch

The ritual salats that are practised by Orthodox Jews, Orthodox Christians and Muslims are originated from Talmud.

good_logic

Peace Yuliana.

I quoted Qoran not talmud.

As far as I know "salat" originated from Abraham, Qoran {2173} {14 35-40}.

" Rituals" are for those that do not know the true purpose of deen."Salat" It is a connection to the creator.
A personal relationship with GOD requires honesty, obedience and sincerity.
A rirual is meaningless if it does not change the person for the better

If one is not happy with anything they should not do it.

GOD bless you.
Peace.