Alcohol/intoxicants.
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peace Abdul-Hadi
sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...
Greetings and Peace, all group
It is best to avoid extremes.
To avoid all alcohol, one would have to avoid many good things--fruit juice, bread, etc. Even then, there is endogenous alcohol production--some people even have a medical condition where they get drunk from endogenous fermentation.
To avoid all intoxicants is impossible. Water is an intoxicant. Oxygen is an intoxicant. To claim that these are not intoxicants is making an argument that alcohol is only an intoxicant when it leads to intoxication.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
443 O you who believe, do not approach the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. GOD is Pardoning, Forgiving.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are an affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering GOD and from the contact prayer. Will you be deterred?
6145 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me to be unlawful for any eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig - for it is foul - or what is a wickedness, dedicated to other than GOD." But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
732 Say "Who has made unlawful the nice things that GOD has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?" Say "They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection." It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
4715 Is the example of the Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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See ? You do agree with me that it is not reasonable to interpret it as a substance. .
Could you say to Allah to learn English ?
Therefore it is not reasonable and your understanding/interpretation of the word is clearly wrong . .
The prohibition is not about the "substance" (khamr). . but about the "consequence" (intoxication) cf. the word "gambling" in , ie not substance
Therefore . . what is intoxication ?
What is the cause . . and effect . . and when does it starts ?
a substance cannot be intoxicated because a substance does not ingest...
I and you can get intoxicated by an intoxicating substance...
the word intoxicant is a misnomer for alcohol... alcohol becomes toxic only when ingested in very large quantities...
a toxic substance kills you...
nicotine is a toxic substance...
well I am glad this thread has become very lively
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a substance cannot be intoxicated because a substance does not ingest...
I and you can get intoxicated by an intoxicating substance...
the word intoxicant is a misnomer for alcohol... alcohol becomes toxic only when ingested in very large quantities...
a toxic substance kills you...
nicotine is a toxic substance...
So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .
During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?
the middle . . or at the end . . ie. the effect/consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?
and secondly . .
What does the prohibition (avoid) is related to ?
Whether it is . . .
- Avoid the substance of Khamr ? Is it logical ?
- Avoid the making of Khamr ? Is it logical ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by Khamr ? Is it logical ?
1? 2? or 3? or else ?
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the_chimp... (you seem to really be now)
Did not understand this.
as I said in my first answer to you, avoiding Satan, his whispers, and the tools he uses to manipulate is what it to be avoided...
You said - I answered. It is not avoiding "Satan". It clearly is not - It is avoid the "Rijs". Repeating the same thing without answering objective raised - is not impressive - it does not further debate . . . and it is sign of being "stubborn".
inebriation and consuming alcohol are two different things...
And you only become drunk BY consuming alcohol.
and avoiding is not the same as not coming near to, you are confusing matters and contexts...
Yet - I showed you "confusing" the usage as it were.
What does avoid mean? To stay clear of something. And what is "do not come near" - if not to stay away?
Please explain the actual difference? Do not just claim they are different.
and I am currently enjoying a Bordeaux Superior red Wine while I am writing this
And?
I can picture you frothing at the mouth like these idiotic mullahs when they are in the middle of a heated preach...
you crack me up dude... thanks for making me laugh... )
Petty abuse gets you nowhere. It is simply illogical to target the person rather than his arguments. Kind of shows you have run out. . .
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If you translated it as a "substance" . . then it also mean that we cannot even touch "Khamr" . . or even go near to that substance
Is this interpretation valid ?
Is it logical to understand it as a "substance"?
Therefore . .
It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.
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how can a substance be intoxicated? learn english please...
Now you are really getting worse. . . more trivial. Flinging another baseless accusation. Where in this quote is "substance" mentioned?
Sweetheart - you are answering to the wrong person . . .
Khamr here means beverages that are fermented to be intoxicated.
"They ask you about "Khamr"..."
This is why most translate this to be Wine - which in Arabia was produced using the fruit of the date palm. However, all such "Khamr" beverages such as beers and spirits would be prohibited.
Tut! Tut!
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It is not clear what you are referring to. khamar cannot be translated as "Substance" - dictionary says no.
I'm identifying the prohibition . . and according to what he agrees .
So . we let him decide, according to whatever he wishes . . and see whether his reasoning sounds logical or ridiculous . .
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So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .
During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?
or at the end . . ie. the consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?
and secondly . .
What does the prohibition (avoid) is related to ?
Whether it is . . .
- Avoid the substance of Khamr ?
- Avoid the making of Khamr ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by Khamr ?
1? 2? or 3? or else ?
salam
this is getting boring, and I do admit, I am not a very patient man...
why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...
the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...
fermented substances are not bad...
their use can be bad...
becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...
also being drunk can make someone lose control, which is a tool Satan can use to make someone do bad things...
read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...
the use with the intention of losing control, and getting drunk in the case of alcohol, and mind altering drugs in general...
but even then, there are special cases
losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.
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why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...
the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...
In this case - Khamer does mean Intoxicant.
becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...
And to avoid it all together.
read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...
Such sentences are pretty useless. Are you that incapable of making your points? Shouldn't it be your reasoning that stands up by itself.
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...
How? Please explain this . . . how? Evidence?
but even then, there are special cases
losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.
Faulty logic.
Analogy
In UK, speed limit in built up areas is 30mph. However, under real emergency you can break this law. However - using this "special case" to claim that you are generally allowed to drive over 30mph is simply illogical. If you tried that in court - it will be rejected.
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Sorry . . I need to understand your standing and that's why I'm asking you questions . .
You said the interpretation of Khamr is . .
something fermented means khamr, sour milk is fermented milk...
Therefore . . it is not substance, right ?
The words Khamr refers to "something fermented", right ?
ie. . . the act of making something . . produce or delivering something . .relating to "Khamr"
Therefore . .
- Avoid the substance of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?
Right ? Do you agree on this ?
But you also said . .
the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...
You said it means a "fermented substance"
and you said . .
fermented substances are not bad...
their use can be bad...
becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...
also being drunk can make someone lose control, which is a tool Satan can use to make someone do bad things...
and therefore . .
- Avoid the substance of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?
Right ? Do you agree on this ?
and Allah says . . "avoid" . . . meaning, do not even approach of being in that situation
Therefore, what you are saying is . . .
- Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?
Conclusion . .
"Do not even approach" the making/produce/deliver of "Khamr" and being intoxicated by "Khamr"
Do you agree on this ?
One could never know when he is 0.1% intoxicated . . but it is still intoxication.
You said . .
and where did you get that ridiculous figure of 0.1%?
and the following has no answer . .
My question . . .
So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .
During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?
the middle . . or at the end . . ie. the effect/consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?
The following does not answer the above question . . ie. when does it starts ?
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...
the issue . . .
The "substance" is not prohibited, but being "intoxicated" is forbidden . . even 0.1% intoxication.
It is still . . intoxication.
Similarly, holding a knife is not prohibited . . but stabbing a person with a knife, is prohibited . . even if it only a scratch to the skin.
It is still . . assault.
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Sorry . . I need to understand your standing and that's why I'm asking you questions . .
My question . . .
The following does not answer the above question . . ie. when does it starts ?
I made my stand very clear I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...
and to clarify, in case you did not know
alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
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I made my stand very clear I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall pray to the machinations of Satan...
and to clarify, in case you did not know
alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
It doesn't matter what you did . . the issue is not about you . .
but about what is your conclusion after reading the Quran . .
Therefore, please answer the following . .
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865;topicseen#msg346865
I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol...
Allah says "avoid" . . meaning don't even come close or don't even approach of being in that situation
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the chimp...
you are splitting hair to be right...
you enjoy being right...
I do not...
bye...
Incorrect. This is about the Quran - I always take the matter seriously; that is not say - one can be appropriately humorous. However - there is no "splitting hair" here.
As the saying goes - "either put up or shut up".
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I made my stand very clear I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...
and to clarify, in case you did not know
alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
"Advised" or "commanded"? There is clear difference between the two.
And this
I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan
is completely unjustified if one takes the actual verse 590-91 into account.
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That is fine. If you can satisfy your own heart. Some of us disagree with your position. That is all.
thank you...
I am very convinced the moderate consumption of alcohol is not haram...
and that the excessive consumption of alcohol can lead someone to abomination and haram, and therefore is not advisable...
there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...
the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations...
this is what I will answer someone who asks me for advice about this matter... which is the same advice I give myself...
as an exhibit, there is a commandment not to pray while being drunk, with alcohol or any other mind altering drugs, as sukara means inebriated, and you can also get inebriated with opium, heroin, marijuana, etc.
by the way I also agree with the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes, now go ahead and criticise me, LOL!