Alcohol/intoxicants.
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So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .
During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?
or at the end . . ie. the consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?
and secondly . .
What does the prohibition (avoid) is related to ?
Whether it is . . .
- Avoid the substance of Khamr ?
- Avoid the making of Khamr ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by Khamr ?
1? 2? or 3? or else ?
salam
this is getting boring, and I do admit, I am not a very patient man...
why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...
the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...
fermented substances are not bad...
their use can be bad...
becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...
also being drunk can make someone lose control, which is a tool Satan can use to make someone do bad things...
read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...
the use with the intention of losing control, and getting drunk in the case of alcohol, and mind altering drugs in general...
but even then, there are special cases
losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.
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why are you so fixated about the word intoxicant, it is not being used...
the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...
In this case - Khamer does mean Intoxicant.
becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...
And to avoid it all together.
read the Quran using your brain and deductive capacity of reasoning, not invented reasons and objections based on emotions...
Such sentences are pretty useless. Are you that incapable of making your points? Shouldn't it be your reasoning that stands up by itself.
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...
How? Please explain this . . . how? Evidence?
but even then, there are special cases
losing control is not always bad, like using chemical substances to induce a coma, or anesthetics in medicine... or control of pain, psychiatric drugs... etc.
Faulty logic.
Analogy
In UK, speed limit in built up areas is 30mph. However, under real emergency you can break this law. However - using this "special case" to claim that you are generally allowed to drive over 30mph is simply illogical. If you tried that in court - it will be rejected.
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Sorry . . I need to understand your standing and that's why I'm asking you questions . .
You said the interpretation of Khamr is . .
something fermented means khamr, sour milk is fermented milk...
Therefore . . it is not substance, right ?
The words Khamr refers to "something fermented", right ?
ie. . . the act of making something . . produce or delivering something . .relating to "Khamr"
Therefore . .
- Avoid the substance of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?
Right ? Do you agree on this ?
But you also said . .
the word khamr is used, and it means a fermented substance...
You said it means a "fermented substance"
and you said . .
fermented substances are not bad...
their use can be bad...
becoming drunk using a fermented substance is such a bad thing, and Allah asks us to avoid being in such a state when we are praying to him...
also being drunk can make someone lose control, which is a tool Satan can use to make someone do bad things...
and therefore . .
- Avoid the substance of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?
Right ? Do you agree on this ?
and Allah says . . "avoid" . . . meaning, do not even approach of being in that situation
Therefore, what you are saying is . . .
- Avoid the making of "Khamr" ?
- Avoid of being intoxicated by "Khamr" ?
Conclusion . .
"Do not even approach" the making/produce/deliver of "Khamr" and being intoxicated by "Khamr"
Do you agree on this ?
One could never know when he is 0.1% intoxicated . . but it is still intoxication.
You said . .
and where did you get that ridiculous figure of 0.1%?
and the following has no answer . .
My question . . .
So . . when does being intoxication starts ? ie. . .
During the initial consumption. . ie. the cause . . ?
the middle . . or at the end . . ie. the effect/consequences, being heavily drunk and cannot control himself . . ?
The following does not answer the above question . . ie. when does it starts ?
avoid refers to an extreme use, not a normal use...
the issue . . .
The "substance" is not prohibited, but being "intoxicated" is forbidden . . even 0.1% intoxication.
It is still . . intoxication.
Similarly, holding a knife is not prohibited . . but stabbing a person with a knife, is prohibited . . even if it only a scratch to the skin.
It is still . . assault.
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Sorry . . I need to understand your standing and that's why I'm asking you questions . .
My question . . .
The following does not answer the above question . . ie. when does it starts ?
I made my stand very clear I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...
and to clarify, in case you did not know
alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
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I made my stand very clear I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall pray to the machinations of Satan...
and to clarify, in case you did not know
alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
It doesn't matter what you did . . the issue is not about you . .
but about what is your conclusion after reading the Quran . .
Therefore, please answer the following . .
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865;topicseen#msg346865
I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol...
Allah says "avoid" . . meaning don't even come close or don't even approach of being in that situation
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the chimp...
you are splitting hair to be right...
you enjoy being right...
I do not...
bye...
Incorrect. This is about the Quran - I always take the matter seriously; that is not say - one can be appropriately humorous. However - there is no "splitting hair" here.
As the saying goes - "either put up or shut up".
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I made my stand very clear I drink alcohol... I am a Muslim... I do not see anything in the Quran that asks me to stop drinking alcohol... I am advised to avoid being drunk when I pray... I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan...
and to clarify, in case you did not know
alcohol is a substance that comes as the result of different kinds of fermentations of natural vegetal substances or their by-products...
"Advised" or "commanded"? There is clear difference between the two.
And this
I am advised not to use alcohol to lose control and fall prey to the machinations of Satan
is completely unjustified if one takes the actual verse 590-91 into account.
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That is fine. If you can satisfy your own heart. Some of us disagree with your position. That is all.
thank you...
I am very convinced the moderate consumption of alcohol is not haram...
and that the excessive consumption of alcohol can lead someone to abomination and haram, and therefore is not advisable...
there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...
the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations...
this is what I will answer someone who asks me for advice about this matter... which is the same advice I give myself...
as an exhibit, there is a commandment not to pray while being drunk, with alcohol or any other mind altering drugs, as sukara means inebriated, and you can also get inebriated with opium, heroin, marijuana, etc.
by the way I also agree with the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes, now go ahead and criticise me, LOL!
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I make the conclusion from your own statement . . not my statement
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865#msg346865
So . .why you are now disagreeing with your own statement ? confused
what are you on about?
sorry, I have answered all that I can...
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sorry, I have answered all that I can...
Your answer is merely a blank denial . . ie. "I do not agree..."
Therefore . . why you are disagreeing with your own statement ?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606121.msg346865#msg346865
there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...
and . . Allah says
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and games of chance are foul tools used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
Shall - mandatory
Avoid - avoid transitive verb -void\
to stay away from (someone or something) . . . fermented intoxicating substance (Khamr)
to prevent the occurrence of (something bad, unpleasant, etc.) . . . fermented intoxicating substance (Khamr)
to keep yourself from doing (something) or participating in (something) . . . fermented intoxicating substance (Khamr)
successful - Islam . . being a Muslim vs. the devil
Therefore . .
Therefore, what you are saying is . . .
Conclusion . .
"Do not even approach" (ie. avoid) the making/produce/deliver of "Khamr" and being intoxicated by "Khamr"
ie. the tools used by the devil
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Greetings and Peace, all group
peace Abdul-Hadi
sorry but khamr translates as fermented substance, not intoxicant...
Although many translations may state "fermented substance," a more literal definition is "that which conceals/covers" with the root word pertaining to cover/conceal. This is demonstrated in 2431 by use of the word bikhumurihinna.
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to GOD, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
To be sure, intoxicant will include more substances than only brewed substances that contain alcohol. To me, it makes sense that Satan can use intoxicants as a tool--not only brewed substances containing alcohol. Don't you think that heroin is probably worse for a believer than alcohol?
Given free choice, I'm all for any and all drugs being legal. It sure doesn't mean that I'd choose to take them, though!
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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thank you...
I am very convinced the moderate consumption of alcohol is not haram...
and that the excessive consumption of alcohol can lead someone to abomination and haram, and therefore is not advisable...
there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...
the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations...
this is what I will answer someone who asks me for advice about this matter... which is the same advice I give myself...
as an exhibit, there is a commandment not to pray while being drunk, with alcohol or any other mind altering drugs, as sukara means inebriated, and you can also get inebriated with opium, heroin, marijuana, etc.
by the way I also agree with the use of marijuana for medicinal purposes, now go ahead and criticise me, LOL!
there is no commandment asking not to consume alcohol in the Quran...
And this is the disagreement.
Verse 590 does forbid Alcohol.
the commandment is not to follow Satan's lures and machinations
Yes. And those "lures and machinations" are . . . gambling, intoxicant, arrows, etc. Hence - Alcohol is forbidden.
"O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful."
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Do not approach prayer while intoxicated says the Quran. If alcohol is prohibited, like pigs meat, the Quran would not say this quote. As a prohibition that's a sin to consume at all, are only four things as explicitly stated in the Quran.
Peace.
Peace
this is why one cannot read a verse on its own... the Quran is a whole, and we have to take account of all verses and guidelines...
it is not a matter of opinion, or preference...
beside what is clearly forbidden, if each of us were to give our opinions, likes, dislikes, fears, pleasures, emotions, it can never end as we are different...
but the base guideline is to avoid excess... we even cannot avoid Satan's whispers, but can protect from it...
why did Allah say that to every prophet, there will be devils coming their way trying to deflect them from the righteous path...
it is more important and logical to stick to the guideline of avoiding excess...
besides, the chimp is asking the wrong question, and it is not that alcohol is made haram by Allah... it is clearly not...
Now would I advise someone, anyone to drink alcohol? would I preach that everybody should drink alcohol? would I stop anybody from drinking alcohol?
these are questions worth asking me, or anyone who drinks alcohol... -
Greetings and Peace, all group
Although many translations may state "fermented substance," a more literal definition is "that which conceals/covers" with the root word pertaining to cover/conceal. This is demonstrated in 2431 by use of the word bikhumurihinna.
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to GOD, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
To be sure, intoxicant will include more substances than only brewed substances that contain alcohol. To me, it makes sense that Satan can use intoxicants as a tool--not only brewed substances containing alcohol. Don't you think that heroin is probably worse for a believer than alcohol?
Given free choice, I'm all for any and all drugs being legal. It sure doesn't mean that I'd choose to take them, though!
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
salam,
thanks for this ijtihad, I accept the definition of "that which conceals/covers", it makes better sense...