To Layth - About the 19 and Smoke Articles
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Peace MQ,
'19 - Fact or Fiction' (19FOF) and 'The Smoke - Nuclear War' (TSNW)
and I must say, I find both articles most objectionable, especially coming from you. I'm not sure if your recent change of heart about 19 has anything to do with your recent association with Edip, but if it did, then you should know that many people in this forum do take your words seriously.
My position has not changed on the subject of 19...It simply is the first time I put such views in a full length article.
The smoke article is new and only came into development when Bush won the 2nd term and the link was made between that and the smoke prophecy.
I do however think its good that you and Edip are getting together on common grounds.
I agree.
- Do you accept RK as a messenger ? Your nuclear war article seems to accept him as a messenger. However, in 19FOF, you rightly point out he removed 2 'false verses' from Al-Qur'aan. Is this the duty of a messenger to REMOVE verses from The Book ?
I do not accept the claim that RK is the person mentioned in 381 (that is Mohammed based on my research), but 'Yes', I accept him as a messenger, and more specifically the messenger mentioned in 4414...
As for the 2 verses, I find that based on faulty research and reject such conclusions...Similarly I find Mohammed (the person) made human mistakes just as severe when he stated that something was forbidden when it was lawful (see 661)...Moses commited manslaughter and hid the facts from everyone...Lot gave up his daughters for the sexual desires of hsi people out of fear for his guests...Jonah ran away from his mission and until he repented...The list goes on.
- 74/30 says that 'alaiHA tis'aa ahsara' (over her is nineteen). Can this 'her' refer to 'al-kitaab', 'al-quraan' or 'az-zikr' , all of which are masculine nouns?
7430 refers to Saqer. 7431 qualifies it as being the number 'ida' of the angels of hell which creates certain properties.
- 74/31 'aiddatuHUM' - THIER count, the malaika over hell. How does this explanation support the 19 theory ?
How does their count make the believers increase in faith or convince those who have received the Scripture...Your question is the right one..And the answer goes back to their 'number'.
- 17/104 If 'bani israil' refers to Jews, then why are there jews still living outside Israel when the verse speaks of bringing them together ?
Bani Israel is a race (not a religion)...This race is made-up of twelve tribes (7160)...This is the first time in history that all the tribes (and in bulk) are back together in one place...Therefore I would say that 17104 logically and linguistically has been fulfilled.
- 54/1. Why do u translate the word here as 'breached' when 4/35 uses 'shiqaaq' as 'seperate, cleft asunder'.
"Shaq" means 'opened up' as in "Inshaq Al-Fajr" (came about / opened up)...Or "Shaq Tareeqahu ila anlbayt" (He made his way home). Thus in the context of 541 I have found 'breached' as the most logical translation while retaining the linguistic correctness of the word.
- Where is the proof to map the 44th president to the 44th sura ?
The link is in the number 44.
- What is the proof to map the 19th year of RK's death to anything ?
The link is in the number 19.
Layth, we successfully escaped the hadith and sunna trap. Lets not fall into this one. They made up all sorts of definitions outside the Book of Allah.
What exactly is 'this one'? Either facts are there or they are not...
The Quran is merely a guide...Let's remember that guidance is from God and the One we will serve until our deathbed is God.
I respect your right as free-minds owner and I am appealing to you as a brother in Al-Islaam.
I cannot shy away from publishing what I see as being true unless it can be proven to be false.
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Salaamun alaikum Layth,
Firstly, I respect your sincerety with regards to the article and if you believe in it, good for you. The responses below are merely in academic interests.
I do not accept the claim that RK is the person mentioned in 381 (that is Mohammed based on my research), but 'Yes', I accept him as a messenger, and more specifically the messenger mentioned in 4414...
As for the 2 verses, I find that based on faulty research and reject such conclusions...Similarly I find Mohammed (the person) made human mistakes just as severe when he stated that something was forbidden when it was lawful (see 661)...Moses commited manslaughter and hid the facts from everyone...Lot gave up his daughters for the sexual desires of hsi people out of fear for his guests...Jonah ran away from his mission and until he repented...The list goes on.There's a problem there with this reasoning, in my opinion. If RK was a messenger from God, then he must have been liable to the rule below
4/65But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
How does a messenger judge ?
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires,... (5/48 )
RK REJECTED 2 verses of the scripture. To him, the rasul mentioned in 9/128 ISN'T raufun rahiim.
Can any messenger reject Allah's judgements or evaluations?
7430 refers to Saqer. 7431 qualifies it as being the number 'ida' of the angels of hell which creates certain properties.
How does their count make the believers increase in faith or convince those who have received the Scripture...Your question is the right one..And the answer goes back to their 'number'.Exactly, 74/30 refers to saqar and 74/31 refers to thier number. I'm sorry but I don't fully understand this verse. However, I'm trying to say that any interpretations beyond 'saqar' and thier number doesn't have clear evidence. For you to adhere to a complete theory based on something without clear evidence leads you into guesswork territory.
Bani Israel is a race (not a religion)...This race is made-up of twelve tribes (7160)...This is the first time in history that all the tribes (and in bulk) are back together in one place...Therefore I would say that 17104 logically and linguistically has been fulfilled.
Allow me to ponder these questions, please
- Musa first said to Firaun 'send with me bani israil' (20/47)
- In 20/73-76, the magicians, who were clearly with Firaun, gave a declaration that they are believers, even showing how much they understood the message.
- 20/77, Musa then escaped with 'my servants' ...
How did the magicians join them except by becoming bani israil ? How then is bani israil a race ?
Further
Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the messengers before thee that thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty. (41/43)Is it possible that Muhammad, who is 'rahmatan lil aalameen' (a mercy unto the worlds) would say 'go away, ur not an arab. my message is only for the race of arabs?' . Well, Musa didn't preach anything different.
Still further
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful. (17/3)Bani Israil were those carried with Noah. They weren't named so because of Jacob's so called wrestle with God.
"Shaq" means 'opened up' as in "Inshaq Al-Fajr" (came about / opened up)...Or "Shaq Tareeqahu ila anlbayt" (He made his way home). Thus in the context of 541 I have found 'breached' as the most logical translation while retaining the linguistic correctness of the word.
Is it possible to show this meaning from a muhkamaat ayat from al-quraan itself ?
The link is in the number 44
The link is in the number 19.Ok, the thing is, there's no clear evidence to link 44 and 19 in the first place. It's your opinion which chose to link the american presidency. Many might say that it's those behind him who hold the power. They would be opining as well. All I'm saying is, we can only be sure of al-haqq. The rest is mere guesswork.
What exactly is 'this one'? Either facts are there or they are not...
The Quran is merely a guide...Let's remember that guidance is from God and the One we will serve until our deathbed is God.
What makes a 'fact' here, please ? Your deductions were made by putting together unrelated bits of information linked by numerics. What's factual about that ?
Agreed. Al-Quraan is a guide and we serve Allah. But how ? Surely by obeying his principles, as Yusuf said (12/40).
Anyhow, thanks for the discussion.
salaam.
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Peace MQ,
There's a problem there with this reasoning, in my opinion. If RK was a messenger from God, then he must have been liable to the rule below
4/65But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.
How does a messenger judge ?
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires,... (5/48 )
RK REJECTED 2 verses of the scripture. To him, the rasul mentioned in 9/128 ISN'T raufun rahiim.
Can any messenger reject Allah's judgements or evaluations?
Is that how RK judged? Or is that what his research at 'x' point in time showed him to be true?
RK had accepted the 2 verses for nearly all his years and even in his early translations...At a moment in time his research (rightly or wrongly) made his come to a different conclusion.
I see his verbal statement that 'we should only follow the Quran and not follow him' to be a correct position that one would expect from a person claiming to be God's messenger (hence the message is more important than the messenger).
Exactly, 74/30 refers to saqar and 74/31 refers to thier number. I'm sorry but I don't fully understand this verse. However, I'm trying to say that any interpretations beyond 'saqar' and thier number doesn't have clear evidence. For you to adhere to a complete theory based on something without clear evidence leads you into guesswork territory.
That the Quran is from God is a 'theory' which we uphold to the letter (we never saw God or spoke to Him).
7431 clearly speaks of properties for the 'ida'...I see those properties in relation to the 'ida' and in relation to the 'signs' of the initials...You may not see this link, which means that you would not have an answer as to why these properties would occur.
I understand your position, but what you are looking for does not exist the way you want it to.
Allow me to ponder these questions, please
- Musa first said to Firaun 'send with me bani israil' (20/47)
- In 20/73-76, the magicians, who were clearly with Firaun, gave a declaration that they are believers, even showing how much they understood the message.
- 20/77, Musa then escaped with 'my servants' ...
How did the magicians join them except by becoming bani israil ? How then is bani israil a race ?
You are unable to make the logical link between the number and the properties in 7431, yet you can make a link between the magicians and the 'servants' metnioned in 2077?
Nowhere do I see or even infer that the magicians are with Moses and the tribes of Isael...In-fact according to 2071 I would say they were killed (keep in mind that the sequence of 2077 is not time specific as you have a period in between when Moses still had to show Pharoh more of the nine signs).
Furthermore, Israel = Jacob. So unless the people you speak of were from Jacob's seed, then they are not Bani Israel.
Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the messengers before thee that thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty. (41/43)
Is it possible that Muhammad, who is 'rahmatan lil aalameen' (a mercy unto the worlds) would say 'go away, ur not an arab. my message is only for the race of arabs?' . Well, Musa didn't preach anything different.
Moses was sent to Bani Israel to remove them from their bondage 2048. Mohammed was sent to the world.
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful. (17/3)
Bani Israil were those carried with Noah. They weren't named so because of Jacob's so called wrestle with God.
Israel is Jacob, and Jacob was not born until after Isaac, which is after Abraham, which was after Noah.
"Shaq" means 'opened up' as in "Inshaq Al-Fajr" (came about / opened up)...Or "Shaq Tareeqahu ila anlbayt" (He made his way home). Thus in the context of 541 I have found 'breached' as the most logical translation while retaining the linguistic correctness of the word.
Is it possible to show this meaning from a muhkamaat ayat from al-quraan itself ?
Please point out all the muhkam verses so I may then examine them.
Ok, the thing is, there's no clear evidence to link 44 and 19 in the first place. It's your opinion which chose to link the american presidency. Many might say that it's those behind him who hold the power. They would be opining as well. All I'm saying is, we can only be sure of al-haqq. The rest is mere guesswork.
There is a correlation in the numbers being the same...What you are stating (that I have made a choice to link these numbers) is obvious...There is a sequence of events listed out (all facts), then there is a correlation that I have seen and which, you are correct, may absolutely be unwaranted.
I found the link interesting and wanted to share these views...Only time will tell if it is correct or not.
What makes a 'fact' here, please ? Your deductions were made by putting together unrelated bits of information linked by numerics. What's factual about that ?
You have been drawn into the numbers that you have not seen the whole point of the article and the facts it speaks of.
America will be destroyed...That is a fact based on the Quran's laws and based on their behaviour.
The signs are all there for anyone to see...
I simply completed these facts with a correlation that I found interesting.
The timing may be wrong, but the results are now mostly inevitable.
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well though I am not expert in arabic but I would like to point out some parts..P Correct me if I am wrong..)
Moses was sent to Bani Israel to remove them from their bondage 2048. Mohammed was sent to the world.
If we understand "muhammad" to be a spesific person than how can we accept him to be sent to the whole world when he even didnt travel beyound gulf region ?
There is a correlation in the numbers being the same...What you are stating (that I have made a choice to link these numbers) is obvious...There is a sequence of events listed out (all facts), then there is a correlation that I have seen and which, you are correct, may absolutely be unwaranted.
I found the link interesting and wanted to share these views...Only time will tell if it is correct or not.
Was these numberings of the verses even revealed in this order ? Who did the numbering at the first place ?
America will be destroyed...That is a fact based on the Quran's laws and based on their behaviour.
Dont you think there could be more worse country than america in the world who are oppressing their own ppl to the limit ? Why there is so much hate for america ?
peace
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Peace,
Why there is so much hate for america ?
I don't think there is so much hate for america. But I recognize USA to be the strongest country on earth in our time. Compare with Aad, Thamud, Firaun, etc... Then we will see the system is going like that, that a strong community is allowed to be having so much power and wealth, this leads to arrogance and oppression and finally this leads to the same fate of aad, thamud, firaun, etc..
Best regards,
sabo -
Salaamun alaikum Layth,
Is that how RK judged? Or is that what his research at 'x' point in time showed him to be true?
RK had accepted the 2 verses for nearly all his years and even in his early translations...At a moment in time his research (rightly or wrongly) made his come to a different conclusion.
If RK was a messenger, he won't need to research if any part of Al-Quraan is authentic, rather it would be
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee (UNZILA ilaika) from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. (5/67)
The message should have been 'tanzil'ed down to RK. And Allah would have protected him from humankind which in this case, He did not.
The messenger's job is to recite al-kitaab, give info about al-kitaab (3/164). How could RK do this if he rejected 2 verses from al-kitaab ?
I'm not questioning RK's intentions, mind you. Only his messengership.
That the Quran is from God is a 'theory' which we uphold to the letter (we never saw God or spoke to Him).
I have only seen Allah through his Signs but that's in my afaaq (horizon, as per 41/53) so you're right, that al-quraan is from God is a theory , objectively speaking.
7431 clearly speaks of properties for the 'ida'...I see those properties in relation to the 'ida' and in relation to the 'signs' of the initials...You may not see this link, which means that you would not have an answer as to why these properties would occur.
Agreed. I don't see the link. What I'm asking for is, where you see the link. How does suddenly aiddatuHUM link up to the letters when they speak of malaika and thier count. Allah never said the count refers to anything else. Of course, if you say that this was revealed to you, I would humbly accept it because it's between you and Allah.
I understand your position, but what you are looking for does not exist the way you want it to.
I know, but in my opinion, it should. I will attempt to prove my case with the magicians example below.
You are unable to make the logical link between the number and the properties in 7431, yet you can make a link between the magicians and the 'servants' metnioned in 2077?
I will attempt to link this up via the verses themselves.
Nowhere do I see or even infer that the magicians are with Moses and the tribes of Isael...In-fact according to 2071 I would say they were killed (keep in mind that the sequence of 2077 is not time specific as you have a period in between when Moses still had to show Pharoh more of the nine signs).
Good point. They could have been, but Allah says
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith( waliy alladhina AAMANOO) from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (2/257)
And the magicians said
So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, "We believe (aamanna) in the Lord of Aaron and Moses".
despite the threat given by Firaun (20/71), they continued on (20/72-76).
How do we know they followed Musa ?
The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this they say, "We hear and we obey" it is such as these that will attain felicity. (24/51)
So they would have followed Musa, if they had believed as Allah said they did.
Moses was sent to Bani Israel to remove them from their bondage 2048. Mohammed was sent to the world.
Agreed. But are Bani Israil a race ? Have you ever known our deen to divide people up by thier RACE ?
Would Musa tell the believer among Firaun's ppl (mentioned in chapter 40) to 'please leave, he's not racially pure enough ?'. This doesn't make sense at all, Layth.
Remember, if Muhammad didn't do so, neither could have musa, isa or anyone else.
The word 'qaum'(people) is also used for terms like 'qaumil kafireen' (the kafir qaum) thus showing its not a racial term.
Israel is Jacob, and Jacob was not born until after Isaac, which is after Abraham, which was after Noah
Yes. This is what the bible says. But Al-Quraan doesn't seem to agree with it because it claims bani israil sprung out from the disembarked Ark (17/3).
Please point out all the muhkam verses so I may then examine them
Firstly, my definition of a muhkam is one which we can verify through observation or experience. If you accept that definition, 4/35 is a perfect example of 'shiqaaq' because it speaks of martial discordance. Marital discordance leads to seperation, splitting.
And if you accept that, 54/1 would have a different meaning for which I think its best you ask Kyle. He'll get it straight off.
There is a correlation in the numbers being the same...What you are stating (that I have made a choice to link these numbers) is obvious...There is a sequence of events listed out (all facts), then there is a correlation that I have seen and which, you are correct, may absolutely be unwaranted.
I found the link interesting and wanted to share these views...Only time will tell if it is correct or notI applaud your humility in admitting this. My deductions could be wrong as well. I am only judging based on my limited experience. We will only see our tawil (essetialisation, realisation) of our convictions on judgement-day.
You have been drawn into the numbers that you have not seen the whole point of the article and the facts it speaks of.
America will be destroyed...That is a fact based on the Quran's laws and based on their behaviour.
The signs are all there for anyone to see...
I simply completed these facts with a correlation that I found interesting.
The timing may be wrong, but the results are now mostly inevitable.I think your analysis about the downfall of America is solid. Unless it performs corrective actions (amalussaalih) now, it has condemned itself. This is very clear from Al-Quraan. I just think as-saaat (the hour, in this case of American downfall) cannot be calculateable as this.
Thank you for a civil discussion. I think alhamdulillah, we didn't fall into the trap which the hajj issue caused some years ago. That issue was a valuable lesson for me never to be zealous or fanatical about anything.
salaam.
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Peace Dear bro layat i have read u,r comments about Rk whicih bring some question to me n i will like to know wut is u,r response to these questions
1 If Rk is the Messanger than why not we accept the way of prayers as he did n which is there written in submission.org n about the number of prayers which he accepted as 5 but u bro layet n yudip seems to not accept them wuts the point about did a person have to take the word of follower instead of beliving on the words of messanger
2 Wuts the point of establising web sites against submission.org when its the one inherted by RK here i will like to know the logic of u bro layth n yudip
3 when u bro layth n yudip accept RK as the messanger than wut is the differences b/n u bro layth n yudip n submission.org
4 wuts the point than to be divided in to groups when the messanger has arrived 20 or 25 years ago n we have to take u,r explanation n yudip explanation
peace
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Peace Shamsul,
If we understand "muhammad" to be a spesific person than how can we accept him to be sent to the whole world when he even didnt travel beyound gulf region ?
I would say that is in light of the message being preached to any who would listen...Mohammed did not seek out a particular tribe or race, but preached the Quran to all. While both Moses and Jesus south out a particular people (Bani Israel).
Was these numberings of the verses even revealed in this order ? Who did the numbering at the first place ?
The chapter/verses order was completed by divine instruction/will...With regards to the numbering of the order, that is merely a statement of fact (i.e. this is chapter 1, verse 1, etc.)
Dont you think there could be more worse country than america in the world who are oppressing their own ppl to the limit ? Why there is so much hate for america ?
America is the only hyperpower and thus it moves and changes poitical and economic landscapes at will on levels unprecedented...What is tragic is that at least since WWII, America has been using this power for its own selfish interests at costs which are astronomical to the people effected (sometimes the cost is their very lives - Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Philipenes, Cuba, Afghanistan, Korea, etc.).
To answer your question, there are nations like America in behaviour, but not on the same size or scale as what America has done and is doing (simply because they can't, not because they won't).
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Peace MQ,
If RK was a messenger, he won't need to research if any part of Al-Quraan is authentic, rather it would be
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee (UNZILA ilaika) from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. (5/67)
The message should have been 'tanzil'ed down to RK. And Allah would have protected him from humankind which in this case, He did not.
The messenger's job is to recite al-kitaab, give info about al-kitaab (3/164). How could RK do this if he rejected 2 verses from al-kitaab ?
I'm not questioning RK's intentions, mind you. Only his messengership.
What a man does with the 24 hours in a day that God gives him is not my concern...RK may have chose to spend much of his spare time looking at the authenticity issue and examining old copies of the Quran as well as looking at numeric formulas...I have no problem with any of these actions since his position was crystal clear "do not follow me, follow the Quran".
Also, I read in your post that the action of being killed is a 'weakness' or is some proof that the man was not a messenger or not protected by God (correct me if I have misred).
In such a case, I would point you to the facts in 291 where God's prophets (let alone messengers) have been killed...I also would point you to 3626 where a man who has believed is killed and enters paradise as a martyr.
Agreed. I don't see the link. What I'm asking for is, where you see the link. How does suddenly aiddatuHUM link up to the letters when they speak of malaika and thier count. Allah never said the count refers to anything else. Of course, if you say that this was revealed to you, I would humbly accept it because it's between you and Allah.
I see a pattern in the properties that the number 19 posseses when dealing with the initials of the chapters...this pattern for me (Layth) speaks beyong co-incidence or porbability...Although I already believe, this pattern strengthens my belief in the Scripture...In this light when I see the verses in chapter 74, I see the link between the 'ida' and between the properties...That is not to say there are no properties in nature also related to this 'ida' (such as the metonic cycle), which also goes back to the same source - the design of the Almighty.
Good point. They could have been, but Allah says
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith( waliy alladhina AAMANOO) from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (2/257)
And the magicians said
So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, "We believe (aamanna) in the Lord of Aaron and Moses".
despite the threat given by Firaun (20/71), they continued on (20/72-76).
How do we know they followed Musa ?
The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this they say, "We hear and we obey" it is such as these that will attain felicity. (24/51)
So they would have followed Musa, if they had believed as Allah said they did.
As in the examples I have already given, being a believer (or even a prophet) does not mean you cannot be killed.
Agreed. But are Bani Israil a race ? Have you ever known our deen to divide people up by thier RACE ?
We are not speaking about 'our' deen...We are speaking a message that was sent to a particlular race of people through Moses...That message contained laws specific to them (such as the Sabaath as a punishemnt, or the food groups they were being forbidden from).
Would Musa tell the believer among Firaun's ppl (mentioned in chapter 40) to 'please leave, he's not racially pure enough ?'. This doesn't make sense at all, Layth.
Moses went to Pharoah to ask for the release of the Children of Israel (not to convert people to Islam)...Whether people who saw the power supporting Moses (such as the magicians) chose to believe is due to their free-will...
Remember, if Muhammad didn't do so, neither could have musa, isa or anyone else.
There is a diference between the 3 names you mentioned...1 was sent to the 'world', while the other 2 were specific to a race/people.
Yes. This is what the bible says. But Al-Quraan doesn't seem to agree with it because it claims bani israil sprung out from the disembarked Ark (17/3).
The progeny is that of Abraham (hence it is a statement of fact)...As for Jacob being Israel, that is confirmed by the Quran.
Firstly, my definition of a muhkam is one which we can verify through observation or experience. If you accept that definition, 4/35 is a perfect example of 'shiqaaq' because it speaks of martial discordance. Marital discordance leads to seperation, splitting.
And if you accept that, 54/1 would have a different meaning for which I think its best you ask Kyle. He'll get it straight off.
Words that have multiple meanings (such as 'Daraba') are determined by the context...I would follow that rule in all cases.
I applaud your humility in admitting this. My deductions could be wrong as well. I am only judging based on my limited experience. We will only see our tawil (essetialisation, realisation) of our convictions on judgement-day.
Very true...Only time will tell if not only this, but so many other things we hold dear are true or not...May God sheild us from our mistakes and shortcommings on that day.
I think your analysis about the downfall of America is solid. Unless it performs corrective actions (amalussaalih) now, it has condemned itself. This is very clear from Al-Quraan. I just think as-saaat (the hour, in this case of American downfall) cannot be calculateable as this.
Thank you for a civil discussion. I think alhamdulillah, we didn't fall into the trap which the hajj issue caused some years ago. That issue was a valuable lesson for me never to be zealous or fanatical about anything.
) We all are constantly learning and will only stop doing so when we think we know it all (which is a big mistake)...Only God knows everything, and all we can do is seek His guidance and His help.
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Peace Naxus,
1 If Rk is the Messanger than why not we accept the way of prayers as he did n which is there written in submission.org n about the number of prayers which he accepted as 5 but u bro layet n yudip seems to not accept them wuts the point about did a person have to take the word of follower instead of beliving on the words of messanger
We do not accept these practices because the job of any messenger is to remind people of the message...That mesage is for people to return to the path of God Alone and abondon all idolatry...What does not pass the test of the Quran (the message) is not to be upheld no matter who carried it out and no matter how good their intentions.
2 Wuts the point of establising web sites against submission.org when its the one inherted by RK here i will like to know the logic of u bro layth n yudip
Does submission.org promote the teachings of the message (the quran)?
I have gone through their site and find it promotes much of the rituals of sunnism as well as new teachings never sanctioned by God (like the requirement to believe in 19, or in RK, or in age 40, etc.).
We promote the message of the Quran being the first and foremost teacher...Not to emulate or follow others on the hope that they are completely guided or know what is what.
3 when u bro layth n yudip accept RK as the messanger than wut is the differences b/n u bro layth n yudip n submission.org
I accept the message that the messenger delivered (serve God Alone, accept the Quran as source of all laws and teachings). Everything else is not related to the message, but to the man.
4 wuts the point than to be divided in to groups when the messanger has arrived 20 or 25 years ago n we have to take u,r explanation n yudip explanation
We are to be unified as one group, just different webistes (God willing)...As for my and Edip's explanations, you should discount them both completely and only look to the teachings of the One who is able to teach - God.
That is after all what this website and others preach...Each person to find the answers for himself/herself and seek God Alone for help and guidance.
If there is just one message I would tell people to take with them, then that would have to be to make 1736 as a prime rule in their lives
?And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.? (Quran 1736)
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Peace all,
Naxus Wrote
1 If Rk is the Messanger than why not we accept the way of prayers as he did n which is there written in submission.org n about the number of prayers which he accepted as 5 but u bro layet n yudip seems to not accept them wuts the point about did a person have to take the word of follower instead of beliving on the words of messanger
I think the answer Layth provided is correct and I'd like to add that Rashad Khalifa was martyred while still in a transitional stage in his life. Had GOD allowed him to live to see 2005, who knows what other understandings/changes of understanding he would have today. I believe he really was a sincere, honest and humble seeker of truth as well as a messenger sent by The Almighty.
My two cents worth.
Salaam y'all.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
I believe am the only idiot alive who still believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the last prophet & messanger of God Almighty.
Rashad Al Khalifah like all other prophethood claimaints try to create confusion prophet and messanger. Propet Muhammad was the last prophet & messanger.
The forumula 19 which needs two verses of Qur'an to be deleted to proved as a miracle can't be correct. Rashad Al Khalifah is proven hypocrite when he accepted the hadith and faulty history to delete two verses from Qur'an. So let a idot like me guess that it is okay to accept hadiths when the whole formula 19 fall flat and reject them all again when the goal achieved.
So what happened when muslim like me reject all these false prophets? Nothing. Deen is complete. Message is complete. Deen reached to prfection during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when Qur'an revelation completed. There is absolutely no need for messanger or prophets.
Still Masjid Nabawi is the place where Allah (SWT) provide peace and happiness to believers and followers of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). I live to visit again the mosque of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) inahaAllah.
Rashad Al Khalifah will cause more division among already so much divided ummah. Hypocrite can't be a messanger.
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Peace be upon you KGB,
I believe am the only idiot alive who still believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the last prophet & messanger of God Almighty.
The reading does not call "Muhammadun" the last prophet or messenger. He does call "Muhammadun" the SEAL of the prophets, never sea of messengers, and the God has no trouble saying END or LAST, but He chose seal.
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a
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
Quote
The reading does not call "Muhammadun" the last prophet or messenger. He does call "Muhammadun" the SEAL of the prophets, never sea of messengers, and the God has no trouble saying END or LAST, but He chose seal.But it does call Muhammed the 'seal of all prophets', doesn't that make him the last prophet?
No. D I think we have been mislead. I will give you my understanding. First, lets agree that the God has no trouble with the word END/LAST. We see this concept throughout the message in reference to the ending time(last day). But the God instead says that "muhammadun" is the SEAL of the prophets. What is a seal? Looking at other verses of this reading for verification, we see that a seal is talked about as being something that covers the eyesight and hearing and intellect and heart of the rejector. A rejector of the messenger. SO the seal of the prophets is the messenger/message. It is a seal that is between the prophets(those who recieve the cosciousness of life/the book) and the rejectors.
Prophet---->/* messenger/message*/<-------rejectors
SEALThe Book(al kitaab) again being the written universe, not this reading(quran). If not, how was the man called "Muhammad" suppossed to understand the following verse?
(1094) So if you are in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so question those who read The Book from before you, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.
Who would have read the book called "Quran" before Muhammad? But there were the righteous before him who read the signs of the Universe from the horizons to within thier minds/spirits(within). That which you SEE is verifyable, and those who understood this from before "muhammad"(really YOu and I), can show us signs to verify this message in the universe.
In addition, if God were to send more prophets with new Books, then how are we to know if they are real or fake? Example is the Bahaii faith. Their "scriptures" are no doubt good, but how do we know they are from God if God never mentions anything about a new Book coming?
We are not here in search of books, we are in search of inspiration, sometimes people write down thier inspiriation. Any reading that is truthful and does not contradict itself and the world and preaches a message that gives the common man faith, then that is the all the evidence we need. This reading just happens to be , just as it calls itself, one of the best.
(7435) Surely it truly is one (of) the greatest
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Peace
Example is the Bahaii faith. Their "scriptures" are no doubt good, but how do we know they are from God if God never mentions anything about a new Book coming?
5.3
...Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you...Do we need new a book from Allah?
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This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. -
Do we need new a book from Allah?
Of course not tux. My point with that quote was that I think I misunderstood idolfree1, because if there are going to be more prophets, then there are going to be more Books. I think the Quran is complete and we need nothing else.
Idolfree1, you certainly have an interesting position on the 'seal'. Perhaps sometime we can discuss it further.
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
Of course not tux. My point with that quote was that I think I misunderstood idolfree1, because if there are going to be more prophets, then there are going to be more Books. I think the Quran is complete and we need nothing else.
It is not this reading(quran) that is complete, it is the God's Word that is complete.
(6115) And your Lord's word (is) completed truthfully and justly, (there is) no change to His words, and He is the hearing/listening, the knowledgeable.
Please look at this verse carefully. If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic.
The God's Word is His Law that permeates the entire UNI-VERSE (One Word). The reading is a guide to the God's laws(His pattern/fitra).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's Laws.
DIdolfree1, you certainly have an interesting position on the 'seal'.
Thank you. Reflect on it and let me know your thoughts.
Perhaps sometime we can discuss it further.
Anytime.
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Idolfree Salaam,
Seal means final, it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets. The sales deed is sealed mean the sales deed is final and there will be no further amendments.
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic. Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand. Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
Philosophy can't resolve all issues, Qur'an can as it is the final words of God Almighty unchanged protected promised to be true and complete by our Creator Lord Himself.
