To Layth - About the 19 and Smoke Articles
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Peace MQ,
If RK was a messenger, he won't need to research if any part of Al-Quraan is authentic, rather it would be
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee (UNZILA ilaika) from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. (5/67)
The message should have been 'tanzil'ed down to RK. And Allah would have protected him from humankind which in this case, He did not.
The messenger's job is to recite al-kitaab, give info about al-kitaab (3/164). How could RK do this if he rejected 2 verses from al-kitaab ?
I'm not questioning RK's intentions, mind you. Only his messengership.
What a man does with the 24 hours in a day that God gives him is not my concern...RK may have chose to spend much of his spare time looking at the authenticity issue and examining old copies of the Quran as well as looking at numeric formulas...I have no problem with any of these actions since his position was crystal clear "do not follow me, follow the Quran".
Also, I read in your post that the action of being killed is a 'weakness' or is some proof that the man was not a messenger or not protected by God (correct me if I have misred).
In such a case, I would point you to the facts in 291 where God's prophets (let alone messengers) have been killed...I also would point you to 3626 where a man who has believed is killed and enters paradise as a martyr.
Agreed. I don't see the link. What I'm asking for is, where you see the link. How does suddenly aiddatuHUM link up to the letters when they speak of malaika and thier count. Allah never said the count refers to anything else. Of course, if you say that this was revealed to you, I would humbly accept it because it's between you and Allah.
I see a pattern in the properties that the number 19 posseses when dealing with the initials of the chapters...this pattern for me (Layth) speaks beyong co-incidence or porbability...Although I already believe, this pattern strengthens my belief in the Scripture...In this light when I see the verses in chapter 74, I see the link between the 'ida' and between the properties...That is not to say there are no properties in nature also related to this 'ida' (such as the metonic cycle), which also goes back to the same source - the design of the Almighty.
Good point. They could have been, but Allah says
Allah is the Protector of those who have faith( waliy alladhina AAMANOO) from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (2/257)
And the magicians said
So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, "We believe (aamanna) in the Lord of Aaron and Moses".
despite the threat given by Firaun (20/71), they continued on (20/72-76).
How do we know they followed Musa ?
The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this they say, "We hear and we obey" it is such as these that will attain felicity. (24/51)
So they would have followed Musa, if they had believed as Allah said they did.
As in the examples I have already given, being a believer (or even a prophet) does not mean you cannot be killed.
Agreed. But are Bani Israil a race ? Have you ever known our deen to divide people up by thier RACE ?
We are not speaking about 'our' deen...We are speaking a message that was sent to a particlular race of people through Moses...That message contained laws specific to them (such as the Sabaath as a punishemnt, or the food groups they were being forbidden from).
Would Musa tell the believer among Firaun's ppl (mentioned in chapter 40) to 'please leave, he's not racially pure enough ?'. This doesn't make sense at all, Layth.
Moses went to Pharoah to ask for the release of the Children of Israel (not to convert people to Islam)...Whether people who saw the power supporting Moses (such as the magicians) chose to believe is due to their free-will...
Remember, if Muhammad didn't do so, neither could have musa, isa or anyone else.
There is a diference between the 3 names you mentioned...1 was sent to the 'world', while the other 2 were specific to a race/people.
Yes. This is what the bible says. But Al-Quraan doesn't seem to agree with it because it claims bani israil sprung out from the disembarked Ark (17/3).
The progeny is that of Abraham (hence it is a statement of fact)...As for Jacob being Israel, that is confirmed by the Quran.
Firstly, my definition of a muhkam is one which we can verify through observation or experience. If you accept that definition, 4/35 is a perfect example of 'shiqaaq' because it speaks of martial discordance. Marital discordance leads to seperation, splitting.
And if you accept that, 54/1 would have a different meaning for which I think its best you ask Kyle. He'll get it straight off.
Words that have multiple meanings (such as 'Daraba') are determined by the context...I would follow that rule in all cases.
I applaud your humility in admitting this. My deductions could be wrong as well. I am only judging based on my limited experience. We will only see our tawil (essetialisation, realisation) of our convictions on judgement-day.
Very true...Only time will tell if not only this, but so many other things we hold dear are true or not...May God sheild us from our mistakes and shortcommings on that day.
I think your analysis about the downfall of America is solid. Unless it performs corrective actions (amalussaalih) now, it has condemned itself. This is very clear from Al-Quraan. I just think as-saaat (the hour, in this case of American downfall) cannot be calculateable as this.
Thank you for a civil discussion. I think alhamdulillah, we didn't fall into the trap which the hajj issue caused some years ago. That issue was a valuable lesson for me never to be zealous or fanatical about anything.
) We all are constantly learning and will only stop doing so when we think we know it all (which is a big mistake)...Only God knows everything, and all we can do is seek His guidance and His help.
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Peace Naxus,
1 If Rk is the Messanger than why not we accept the way of prayers as he did n which is there written in submission.org n about the number of prayers which he accepted as 5 but u bro layet n yudip seems to not accept them wuts the point about did a person have to take the word of follower instead of beliving on the words of messanger
We do not accept these practices because the job of any messenger is to remind people of the message...That mesage is for people to return to the path of God Alone and abondon all idolatry...What does not pass the test of the Quran (the message) is not to be upheld no matter who carried it out and no matter how good their intentions.
2 Wuts the point of establising web sites against submission.org when its the one inherted by RK here i will like to know the logic of u bro layth n yudip
Does submission.org promote the teachings of the message (the quran)?
I have gone through their site and find it promotes much of the rituals of sunnism as well as new teachings never sanctioned by God (like the requirement to believe in 19, or in RK, or in age 40, etc.).
We promote the message of the Quran being the first and foremost teacher...Not to emulate or follow others on the hope that they are completely guided or know what is what.
3 when u bro layth n yudip accept RK as the messanger than wut is the differences b/n u bro layth n yudip n submission.org
I accept the message that the messenger delivered (serve God Alone, accept the Quran as source of all laws and teachings). Everything else is not related to the message, but to the man.
4 wuts the point than to be divided in to groups when the messanger has arrived 20 or 25 years ago n we have to take u,r explanation n yudip explanation
We are to be unified as one group, just different webistes (God willing)...As for my and Edip's explanations, you should discount them both completely and only look to the teachings of the One who is able to teach - God.
That is after all what this website and others preach...Each person to find the answers for himself/herself and seek God Alone for help and guidance.
If there is just one message I would tell people to take with them, then that would have to be to make 1736 as a prime rule in their lives
?And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.? (Quran 1736)
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Peace all,
Naxus Wrote
1 If Rk is the Messanger than why not we accept the way of prayers as he did n which is there written in submission.org n about the number of prayers which he accepted as 5 but u bro layet n yudip seems to not accept them wuts the point about did a person have to take the word of follower instead of beliving on the words of messanger
I think the answer Layth provided is correct and I'd like to add that Rashad Khalifa was martyred while still in a transitional stage in his life. Had GOD allowed him to live to see 2005, who knows what other understandings/changes of understanding he would have today. I believe he really was a sincere, honest and humble seeker of truth as well as a messenger sent by The Almighty.
My two cents worth.
Salaam y'all.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
I believe am the only idiot alive who still believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the last prophet & messanger of God Almighty.
Rashad Al Khalifah like all other prophethood claimaints try to create confusion prophet and messanger. Propet Muhammad was the last prophet & messanger.
The forumula 19 which needs two verses of Qur'an to be deleted to proved as a miracle can't be correct. Rashad Al Khalifah is proven hypocrite when he accepted the hadith and faulty history to delete two verses from Qur'an. So let a idot like me guess that it is okay to accept hadiths when the whole formula 19 fall flat and reject them all again when the goal achieved.
So what happened when muslim like me reject all these false prophets? Nothing. Deen is complete. Message is complete. Deen reached to prfection during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when Qur'an revelation completed. There is absolutely no need for messanger or prophets.
Still Masjid Nabawi is the place where Allah (SWT) provide peace and happiness to believers and followers of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). I live to visit again the mosque of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) inahaAllah.
Rashad Al Khalifah will cause more division among already so much divided ummah. Hypocrite can't be a messanger.
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Peace be upon you KGB,
I believe am the only idiot alive who still believe that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the last prophet & messanger of God Almighty.
The reading does not call "Muhammadun" the last prophet or messenger. He does call "Muhammadun" the SEAL of the prophets, never sea of messengers, and the God has no trouble saying END or LAST, but He chose seal.
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a
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
Quote
The reading does not call "Muhammadun" the last prophet or messenger. He does call "Muhammadun" the SEAL of the prophets, never sea of messengers, and the God has no trouble saying END or LAST, but He chose seal.But it does call Muhammed the 'seal of all prophets', doesn't that make him the last prophet?
No. D I think we have been mislead. I will give you my understanding. First, lets agree that the God has no trouble with the word END/LAST. We see this concept throughout the message in reference to the ending time(last day). But the God instead says that "muhammadun" is the SEAL of the prophets. What is a seal? Looking at other verses of this reading for verification, we see that a seal is talked about as being something that covers the eyesight and hearing and intellect and heart of the rejector. A rejector of the messenger. SO the seal of the prophets is the messenger/message. It is a seal that is between the prophets(those who recieve the cosciousness of life/the book) and the rejectors.
Prophet---->/* messenger/message*/<-------rejectors
SEALThe Book(al kitaab) again being the written universe, not this reading(quran). If not, how was the man called "Muhammad" suppossed to understand the following verse?
(1094) So if you are in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so question those who read The Book from before you, the truth has come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.
Who would have read the book called "Quran" before Muhammad? But there were the righteous before him who read the signs of the Universe from the horizons to within thier minds/spirits(within). That which you SEE is verifyable, and those who understood this from before "muhammad"(really YOu and I), can show us signs to verify this message in the universe.
In addition, if God were to send more prophets with new Books, then how are we to know if they are real or fake? Example is the Bahaii faith. Their "scriptures" are no doubt good, but how do we know they are from God if God never mentions anything about a new Book coming?
We are not here in search of books, we are in search of inspiration, sometimes people write down thier inspiriation. Any reading that is truthful and does not contradict itself and the world and preaches a message that gives the common man faith, then that is the all the evidence we need. This reading just happens to be , just as it calls itself, one of the best.
(7435) Surely it truly is one (of) the greatest
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Peace
Example is the Bahaii faith. Their "scriptures" are no doubt good, but how do we know they are from God if God never mentions anything about a new Book coming?
5.3
...Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you...Do we need new a book from Allah?
22
This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous. -
Do we need new a book from Allah?
Of course not tux. My point with that quote was that I think I misunderstood idolfree1, because if there are going to be more prophets, then there are going to be more Books. I think the Quran is complete and we need nothing else.
Idolfree1, you certainly have an interesting position on the 'seal'. Perhaps sometime we can discuss it further.
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Peace be upon you Green Leaves,
Of course not tux. My point with that quote was that I think I misunderstood idolfree1, because if there are going to be more prophets, then there are going to be more Books. I think the Quran is complete and we need nothing else.
It is not this reading(quran) that is complete, it is the God's Word that is complete.
(6115) And your Lord's word (is) completed truthfully and justly, (there is) no change to His words, and He is the hearing/listening, the knowledgeable.
Please look at this verse carefully. If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic.
The God's Word is His Law that permeates the entire UNI-VERSE (One Word). The reading is a guide to the God's laws(His pattern/fitra).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's Laws.
DIdolfree1, you certainly have an interesting position on the 'seal'.
Thank you. Reflect on it and let me know your thoughts.
Perhaps sometime we can discuss it further.
Anytime.
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Idolfree Salaam,
Seal means final, it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets. The sales deed is sealed mean the sales deed is final and there will be no further amendments.
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic. Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand. Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
Philosophy can't resolve all issues, Qur'an can as it is the final words of God Almighty unchanged protected promised to be true and complete by our Creator Lord Himself.
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Salaam kGB,
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic. Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand. Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
I believe that that was presicely Kyle's point! Take a look again!
Please look at this verse carefully. If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic.
The God's Word is His Law that permeates the entire UNI-VERSE (One Word). The reading is a guide to the God's laws(His pattern/fitra).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's Laws.
Kyle was not assuming that the Word of Allah has always been in Arabic.
Taj
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Thanks Marie.
Taj my post to Idolfree is not on linguist grounds. My only intention is stick to the message of Qur'an without destroying Deen of Allah (SWT) in the name of liberalism, monothism, in the name of God Alone sectarian group formation with American last prophet.
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Peace be upon you KGB,
Seal means final
Where's your PROOF? D I know that is what you were taught to beleive, just as I was, but where is the PROOF?
it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets.
Carrying what seal? I did not say anything about anyone carrying anything. I am stating that the seal prevents access to a certain level, while covering those who cannot reach that level. A mental picture might help, imagine the sun being the light of prophecy, and there is a big screen blocking the light causing darkness to cover those beneath it. The screen/SEAL is the message itself(messenger).
The sales deed is sealed mean the sales deed is final and there will be no further amendments.
I'm sure for the right amount of money, that sales deed can be made to disappear in this wordly life, but lets stick to this message. Does a seal imply final in its usage throughout the message? When the heart of rejectors is sealed, does it mean that there is no hope for rejectors? If that is the case, why do we bother spreading the message?
You tried to explain 6115 according to your understanding which unfortunately is not correct. Qur'an are the final words of God in Arabic.
Is that your proof? I don't mind you saying I am incorrect, but I expect a counter argument with proof, not just an answer based on desire.
Noah message must be given to them in their own language, Psalms given to David, Torah and Gospel given to Moses and Jesus were in the language which they understand.
Yes, all people must get the message in thier own language. While we are on this point, it is your argument that "Muhammad" came with the final message to all humanity, so this means that since it is for all humanity, it should be in all languages, but he only left us the Arabic version, does that make sense according to you reasoning?
I will repeat what I said in my previous post, If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic. DO you think Noah got a physical book with the VERY SAME WORDINGS? I do not, I think Noah was inspired by life around him with the very same message that al prophets are inspired with, not a physical book.
Psalms, Torah and Gospel message was only for people limited for Jews and their tribes, the message was not universal message. The three previous books help people to develop a more civilized social system with the introduction of monothism One God concept. Finally Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was selected as the prophet for whole humanity with the final message Qur'an in Arabic. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the Rahmat Al Aalameen (Mercy of God Almighty to mankind).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's words. You are saying that the previous "books" were speacialized, why do you feel differently about this book since it obviously came down in Arabic?
Allah (SWT) All Knowing given his message to the people in their own languages. How could Noah would be preaching his message in Arabic when people do not understand the language.
EXACTLY! Thats what I am asking you D
Philosophy can't resolve all issues, Qur'an can as it is the final words of God Almighty unchanged protected promised to be true and complete by our Creator Lord Himself.
This reading(quran) IS a philosophy. It is the God's argument.
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Salaam Layth,
As for the 2 verses, I find that based on faulty research and reject such conclusions...Similarly I find Mohammed (the person) made human mistakes just as severe when he stated that something was forbidden when it was lawful (see 661)...Moses commited manslaughter and hid the facts from everyone...Lot gave up his daughters for the sexual desires of hsi people out of fear for his guests...Jonah ran away from his mission and until he repented...The list goes on.
#1
Muhammad (P&PBUH) didn't sin when he forbade himself from doing something, which nobody knows what it was, for the sake of his wives. He wanted to satisfy his wives by giving up something that was completely Halah, yet he chose to give it up, for the sake of peace. He did not mess up with Allah's Massege. Muhammad was sacrifying that which was rightfully his in order to keep peace. In Allah was disapproving that Muhammad submit totally to his wives, seeking their satisfaction, reminding him that there is a limit (for the wives's satisfaction).#2
Moses (PBUH) didn't commit manslaughter. What happened was an ACCIDENT. Moses DID NOT intend to kill. He had to run away out of fear of misunderstanding, that people would think of him as what you, Layth, think of him! So Allah sent Moses a man to urge him to leave the village to save his life.#3
Lot (PBUH) did not give up his daughters for the sexual desires of his people.
Lot told those menHere are my daughters they are purer for you.
Could Lot be suggesting something Haram when he said that his daughters are a way for purity for those men? To me it is very clear he was offering his daughters as WIVES for those sinning men. And that was a big sacrifice on Lot's part, NOT A MISTAKE!#4
Jonah (PBUH) did not run away from his mission wanting to disobey Allah. Jonah doubted himself and his people. He feared the burden of the Massege and thought that they would never listen. Jonah threw himslef willingly in the sea asking for Allah's forgiveness and Allah saved Jonah by sending the whale. The whale was a mercy, not a punishment.And that is the way with many Messengers. They feared their people, so they were always in need for Allah's support.
Taj
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Salaam Taj,
Just an observation I'd like for you to go through with me. In #3 you said that lut offered his daughters as wives for sinning men. Was lut a muslim and if so is it not true that for a muslim marrying rejectors is not encouraged? What is meant to be accomplished by this?
In #4, we know not what his true intentions were, but he did run. This is in itself not acceptable. I'm not sure if Allah saved Jonah by sending a whale when he called out afterwards . I think Allah actually saved him in giving him freedom from this gloomy disposition.
In #2 you say the intention of musa was not to kill. I believe the lesson therein is not to come forward with preconcieved notions. What I believe happened was that musa was generalizing and sought to help when he was not helping at all. It could indeed be manslaughter, even though it was not the intention. He was wrong.
In #1 this man forbade a thing not forbidden. How do you define a sin? I say that doing something wrong according to a criterion falls under a sin. A blatant crossing of the lines which was done for his wives.
Joe
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Where's your PROOF? D I know that is what you were taught to beleive, just as I was, but where is the PROOF?
Proof is in Qur'an which you understand better than me. Seal in this verse is the stamp of finality of prophethood. Qur'an is the proof that there is no need of new or already dead prophet to come and give final touches to already perfected deen of Allah (SWT). The proof is that Allah (SWT) has confirmed that Muhammad has delivered the message excatly what was given to him. Seal in this verse is not the shield.
I'm sure for the right amount of money, that sales deed can be made to disappear in this wordly life, but lets stick to this message. Does a seal imply final in its usage throughout the message? When the heart of rejectors is sealed, does it mean that there is no hope for rejectors? If that is the case, why do we bother spreading the message?
Yes. But still sealed legal and business documents means that they are final.
Yes, all people must get the message in thier own language. While we are on this point, it is your argument that "Muhammad" came with the final message to all humanity, so this means that since it is for all humanity, it should be in all languages, but he only left us the Arabic version, does that make sense according to you reasoning?
The very simple answer to your question is that at the time of Qur'an revelation the languages were in very primitive stages or did not exists at all where Arabic language was very developed rich spoken and written language. Was the spoken or written English was developed like it is today, or take my first language Urdu which did not at all existed at the time of Qur'an revelations. How you expect Allah (SWT) deliver message in non existant language?
I will repeat what I said in my previous post, If you claim that this reading(quran) is the same as the Word of the God (instead of being manifest from the God's Word), then take note that the God says there is NO CHANGE in His Words. This would mean that everyone gets a book with the exact same words in it, in Arabic, for all times. Even "Noah" would have been reading about "Muhammad" in Arabic. DO you think Noah got a physical book with the VERY SAME WORDINGS? I do not, I think Noah was inspired by life around him with the very same message that al prophets are inspired with, not a physical book.
Yes I believe Qur'an are the exact words of Allah (SWT).
There is NO CHANGE in the God's words. You are saying that the previous "books" were speacialized, why do you feel differently about this book since it obviously came down in Arabic?
Again proof is in Qur'an. You are more intelligent person and I am and certainly have the knowledge better than me. Please refer to verses which talk about previous scriptures also please read the verse where Allah (SWT) has said that he never let his message get deleted instead he replaces it with the better one. Psalms replaced by Torah, Torah replaced by Gospel, Qur'an replaces all the previous scripture still exists. Please also read the verse where Allah (SWT) says that if we read the previous scriptures we will still be able to the proof that it was His message.
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
Seal means final, it do not mean that there will be prophets and messangers coming after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) carrying his seal as claimed by all false prophets
Seal means final, yes. But does 'muhammad' means 'prophet muhammad ibn abdullah ibn abi mutalib al-quraisy' ? THAT is the question
If nubuwwat/prophethood is finished, why does 65/1 use 'you' in plural ? See word 'talaqTUM' ?
Proof is in Qur'an which you understand better than me. Seal in this verse is the stamp of finality of prophethood. Qur'an is the proof that there is no need of new or already dead prophet to come and give final touches to already perfected deen of Allah (SWT). The proof is that Allah (SWT) has confirmed that Muhammad has delivered the message excatly what was given to him. Seal in this verse is not the shield.
Al-Quraan never says that Prophets bring NEW books. 6/84-89 mentions Prophets who were never associated historically with NEW books.
NEW books arent our concern. We should be concerned with what is told to us.
thanks and salaam.
