What is Islam?

[hawk99]

Religion is an insult to human dignity
With or without religion
you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion
Steven Weinberg

Peace,

Spoken like a true atheist (Steven Weinberg) nope

God bless

peace

[muslims]

Spoken like a true atheist (Steven Weinberg) nope

Yes, I'm also an atheist. . and a secularist, and I don't believe in "God/god". . (and refer here).. So?

[David_Saidi]

Salaam

From what perspective?

Your wishful thinking and distorted facts ?

You related two prespective which has no connections at all

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

Simple you intepret the Quran withouth knowing the just and cause for in what situation that verses was sent down.
Claim to following hadith, but intepret Quran by assumptions.

and did you mean this kind of unity and Islam ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_GTRcKq_I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ReNSqqVeU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0S4qUQWzU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Since you believe in hadith, then why you refute it??
According to hadith, the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah.
Also in hadith, Ahmadiyah will labelled as "raddad".Same as murtad, they will get death sentence if they're not repent.

Oh yes maybe the terms kill and death sentece already get the bad stereotype in the current civillization/era.
Oh yes maybe death sentence is against the human right according to the current civillization.
And you muslims, you just get brainwashed by the environment of this civvilization

For us who lived in this era perhaps will get shock by watching this video, but if we lived in the medieval or ancient eras, perhaps watching that phenomenon is a common thing or maybe supporting it

I ever heard a quote from a cleric.
He said "We must follow the God's teaching not make God's teaching to follow manmade laws and civillization"

Until now I still agreed with that quote.

Ah you're an Islamist.
This makes it very clear.. and this is where you and I are different.

Differences doesn't make us hate each other.
The only thing we must uphold is tolerance

You're following what those Caliphate mandates you to believe.
It was those Caliphate who invented Islamism as a political mean to gain world power and crush their enemies.
As thus the lingo of "enemy of Islam" was born.

Sound islamophobes
Plus it depend which Caliphate?? Me only recognized Rasyidin Calipate as true Caliphate, while it's succesor just only a power seeker.
The purpose of creation of Caliphate state at time is too implement the God's sharia and protect moslems from foreign invasion.
At that time there is none like UN or somethings and invasion was commons.

Those Caliphate also wrote story about the past that must be considered as fact by their follower, thus you read the sectarian Muhammad robbing villages of "the enemies", massacred them and put their women and children into slavery. Which was what those Caliphates love to do anyway. And you believe everything on it.

Mohammed never did that.He is not a simple person who attack another tribes because of that insane reasons

There is an evidence if Muhammad also uphold tolerance with other religion

See http//4.bp.blogspot.com/-P02h9DLZHBc/UFiwH6F6BGI/AAAAAAAACT4/OCbLvrDuW58/s1600/Prophet+Mohammad's+letter+to+St.+Catherine+Monastery.jpg

[muslims]

You related two prespective which has no connections at all

The message of the Quran is "would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
and . . "So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."
and the is no compulsion in the deen. . .

but you said

Mohammed (saw) is also sectarian, if not he won't attacking pagan or jewish tribes to make them embrance Islam.

Therefore, your contention are contradicting the Quran.

. . .

Since you believe in hadith, then why you refute it??

Because hadith is man-made (you are merely repeating the same issue where you have ignored or unable to give reason)
same with other scriptures and need to be confirmed by facts from the Quran . .

Wishful thinking. . . prove from the Quran, then the hadith. . . then Ijma, Bible, Torah, Qiyas etc.
Again, and according to priority. . .

1. Quran
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
2. Hadith
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
3. Ijma (consensus of opinion relating to similarities with specific verses from the Bible, Torah etc)
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
4. Qiyas (analogical reasoning relating to similarities with
   non specific verses from the Bible, Torah, Traditions, Man-made law etc)
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
5. Istihsan (equity), Maslahah Mursalah (considerations of public interest),
   Istishab (presumption of continuity), Ijtihad (logic, critical thinking) etc . . . .
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
6. Lastly. . . your opinion.

. . .

According to hadith, the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah.
Also in hadith, Ahmadiyah will labelled as "raddad".Same as murtad, they will get death sentence if they're not repent.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

See? another contradiction . . . since it is not what the Quran are saying . . .

and you are just repeating the issue where you have ignored with your blank denials etc, over and over. . circular reasoning. . .

now . . did those Ahmadiyah reserved to be killed ?

Regarding this "way of life" (hablum minannas), Allah already make it clear. . .

To Him belong the possessions of the heavens and the earth
He spreads out the provision for whoever He wills, and He measures it.
He is fully aware of all things.

He has decreed for you the same system <- below is referring to "religion" vs. "ad-deen"
He ordained for Noah,
and what We inspired to you,
and what We ordained for Abraham,
Moses
and Jesus

"You shall uphold this system and <- the system of "just" vs. "unjust", balance...
do not divide in it." <- No Sectarianism, ie. assimilation.. assimilate with the society

Intolerable for the polytheists (idol worshipper) is what you invite (unity) them towards <- contradicting the above concept
God chooses for Himself whoever He wills
He guides to Himself those who repent.

And they only divided after the knowledge had come to them
due to resentment among themselves
And had it not been for a predetermined decision from your Lord
they would have been judged immediately
Indeed, those who inherited the Book after them are full of doubts.

For that, you shall preach (speak for balance and justice)
and be upright, as you have been commanded <- meaning of an upright man
and do not follow their wishes (for sectarianism). And say
"I believe in all that God has sent down as a Book,
and I was commanded to be with justice between you. <- hablum minannas, unity, assimilation
God is our Lord and your Lord.
We have our deeds and you have your deeds.
There is no argument between us and you. <- hablum minallah, no dispute! It is personal preferences.
God will gather us all together, and to Him is the ultimate destiny."
4212-15

See? Allah said that "There is no argument between us and you. "

Therefore why are you saying "the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it"

. . .

I ever heard a quote from a cleric.
He said "We must follow the God's teaching not make God's teaching to follow manmade laws and civillization"

Until now I still agreed with that quote.

your statement is contradicting with your belief since the hadith is a man-made law etc. . .

contradictorily, you believe that there should be a war or jihad against the non muslim etc

and you said "the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah."

against what the Quran are saying . .

see? your contention are full of inconsistencies . . .

. . .

Differences doesn't make us hate each other.
The only thing we must uphold is tolerance

Sound islamophobes
Plus it depend which Caliphate?? Me only recognized Rasyidin Calipate as true Caliphate, while it's succesor just only a power seeker.
The purpose of creation of Caliphate state at time is too implement the God's sharia and protect moslems from foreign invasion.
At that time there is none like UN or somethings and invasion was commons.

You mean this ? rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

and . .

See? I have proven again and again that your belief and contentions are full of inconsistencies and contradictions . . .

[hawk99]

Yes, I'm also an atheist. .

Peace,

Your confusion is understandable.

God bless

peace

[muslims]

Yes, I'm also an atheist. .

Your confusion is understandable.

Is that a conclusion or valid argument ? I hope not. . . rotfl
The above statement makes you no difference from the the Sunni and Shia etc . . .

The issue is why I'm confused ? . . . prove that I'm confused with Islam and the Quran . . .
State clearly your conclusion and premises. . .

http//z5.ifrm.com/30336/15/0/f5229388/argument.png

[David_Saidi]

The message is "would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
and . . "So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."
and the is no compulsion in the deen. . .

same with other scriptures and need to be confirmed by facts from the Quran . .

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

See? another contradiction . . . since it is not what the Quran are saying

Assumption and assumptions again.You spoke just like you're a Phrophet (the receiver of the wahy)

I already said, you intepret the Quran withouth knowing in what situation, the GOD sent down the verses to Muhammad.

Example for this case

Verse God said "You all must united into the single ummah"
Background This verse was sent down to Muhammad when his moslems companios got divided because differences in tafseer.

If I intepret the verses withouth knowing the background, I will only play assumptions, like this possibilities

1. Maybe the word "you" refers to people who came from any religious background, so perhaps this verse said if all people must united into single ummah.

2. Maybe the word "ummah" refers to country, perhaps all muslims must united into single country.

3. and another maybe-perhaps (speculations) ;D

Because hadith is man-made (you are merely reperting the same issue where you have ignored or unable to give reason)

I'm now a hadith follower, but not Sunni, Shia or some madzhab
FOr along time rejecting hadith, now I just repent to GOD

If you reject hadith and tafseer, you will not knowing the verses in the Quran (unless by speculations).
Yes hadith is manmade law (Muhammad) and the duty of phrophet is to explain the wahy (Quran).
Just like the previous Phrophets.

You mean this ? rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

Tolerance in Islam is between inter-religion, ex Islam with Christian, Islam with Hindhu.
Not with group who corrupting Islam.
Please learn about the essential of tolerance in Islam.

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

[muslims]

Assumption and assumptions again.You spoke just like you're a Phrophet (the receiver of the wahy)

I already said, you intepret the Quran withouth knowing in what situation, the GOD sent down the verses to Muhammad.

Example for this case

Verse God said "You all must united into the single ummah"
Background This verse was sent down to Muhammad when his moslems companios got divided because differences in tafseer.

If I intepret the verses withouth knowing the background, I will only play assumptions, like this possibilities

1. Maybe the word "you" refers to people who came from any religious background, so perhaps this verse said if all people must united into single ummah.

2. Maybe the word "ummah" refers to country, perhaps all muslims must united into single country.

3. and another maybe-perhaps (speculations) ;D

How many times I have to repeat ? Quran, hadith, ijma and qiyas etc.
There is no point of you using the ad hominem, blank denials and circular reasoning to prove your truth . . .

Prove from the Quran that Muhammad was allowed to kill people just for the sake of people must embrace the religion of Islam . . .
This is your burden of proof, I have given the ayat that

"would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
"So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."

and . . . for me the ummah means people who are glorifying balance and justice, regardless of their religions and belief. . .
This is my prove. . .

They are not the same
among the People of the Scripture is a community standing ,
reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating
They believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds.
And those are among the righteous
3113-114, and also refer here . . .

. . .

I'm now a hadith follower, but not Sunni, Shia or some madzhab
FOr along time rejecting hadith, now I just repent to GOD

If you reject hadith and tafseer, you will not knowing the verses in the Quran (unless by speculations).
Yes hadith is manmade law (Muhammad) and the duty of phrophet is to explain the wahy (Quran).
Just like the previous Phrophets.

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then we go to hadith, ijma and qiyas etc. . .
You keep ignoring the issue, please refer to the usul al fiqh

Priority of the Quran over the Sunnah
A Sunnah is the second source of the Shari'ah next to the Qur'an,
the mujtahid is bound to observe an order of priority between the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hence in his search for a solution to a particular problem,
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence; p.58 Second Revised Edition; Mohammad Hashim Kamali

. . .

Tolerance in Islam is between inter-religion, ex Islam with Christian, Islam with Hindhu.
Not with group who corrupting Islam.
Please learn about the essential of tolerance in Islam.

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

I have give you an ayat from the Quran . . .and Allah said "There is no argument between us and you", see also 5.48
This is the rule relating to hablum minallah . . . there is no argument!

Therefore where is the ayat to prove your statement that the Ahmadiya deserved to be killed like that ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

How many times do I have to repeat asking you not to merely stating your opinions ?

[David_Saidi]

For me the ummah

Yeah according to you, not according to God.
Perhaps yourself is a god D

They are not the same
among the People of the Scripture is a community standing ,
reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating
They believe in Allah and the Last Day,
and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds.
And those are among the righteous
3113-114, and also refer here . . .

"would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
"So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."

How do you know if the verses like talking something like your claim?? (assumption)
I already told you in previous post for the reason

Example for this case

Verse God said "You all must united into the single ummah"
Background This verse was sent down to Muhammad when his moslems companios got divided because differences in tafseer.

If I intepret the verses withouth knowing the background for in what situation the verses was sent down,
Then I will only play assumptions, like this possibilities

1. Maybe the word "you" refers to people who came from any religious background, so perhaps this verse said if all people must united into single ummah.

2. Maybe the word "ummah" refers to country, perhaps all muslims must united into single country.

3. and another maybe-perhaps (speculations) ;D

Prove from the Quran that Muhammad was allowed to kill people just for the sake of people must embrace the religion of Islam . . .

Therefore where is the ayat to prove your statement ?

No I don't want to do it, since I'm not a Phrophet.
But according to hadith, the purpose muhammad to did that, because at time Islam follower was very little and to gain the influence, the invasion was permissed by the GOD.
The situation at that time is different with now.At that time there is no UN, human right NGOs, and often the countries using military force to spread their hegemony.

"would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
"So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."

Perhaps you're a god and knowing well the purpose of this verse was sent down to Muhammad for hail

[muslims]

See? again and again and again. . not a even a single ayat to prove your contention relating to the killing of the Ahmadiyya

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

It is merely from the hadith and your opinions that they deserve to be killed like that . . .
and which are full of inconsistencies and blank denials . .

Say, "Bring forward your witnesses <- ie, the narrators
who will testify that Allah has prohibited this." <- ie, hadith
And if they testify <- ie, hadith
do not testify with them. <- ie, madhab/ religion
And do not follow the desires of those who deny Our verses <- ie, disobedience
and those who do not believe in the Hereafter <- ie, disbelievers
while they equate with their Lord. <- ie, committing shirk
6150

. . . .

Yeah acxording to you, not according to God.
Perhaps yourself is a GOD D

You must be blind, I have given a direct ayat from the Quran . . .

It is not me, it is the Quran that is the words of God

You are denying the Quran from God ?

. . .

How do you know if the verses like talking something like your claim?? (assumption)
I already told you in previous post for the reason

read carefully . . . and slowly . . .

People of the Scripture

And those are among the righteous
3113-114, and also refer here . . .

So how come they are the Kafir ?

. . .

Therefore where is the ayat to prove your statement ?

No I don't want to do it, since I'm not a Phrophet.

So the Quran is only for the Prophet, then throw away your Quran . . . what is for ?

and who else are the prophet ? Your ulama ? rotfl

. . .

. . . But according to hadith, the purpose muhammad to did that, because at time Islam follower was very little and to gain the influence, the invasion was permissed by the GOD.

Learn usul al-fiqh . . . Quran first, then the Sunnah etc.

the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an

. . .

Perhaps you're a god and knowing well the purpose of why this verse was sent down to Muhammad for hail

God don't need the Quran. it is we who need the Quran. . . therefore we are not God ! rotfl

and the context of historical purpose . . .

They will say there were three, the fourth of them being their dog <- rules relating to history
and they will say there were five, the sixth of them being their dog
guessing at the unseen
and they will say there were seven, and the eighth of them was their dog.

Say, "My Lord is most knowing of their number. None knows them except a few.

So do not argue about them except with an obvious argument <- the prohibitions, disobey ?
and do not inquire about them among from anyone."
1822

[David_Saidi]

Why you're so being stubborn like this.

I told you, I'm not a Quran Alone follower anymore.
I already prove mineself, if withouth the hadith the Quran will sound stranger.

We cannot intepret Quran withouth the hadith parameter, because we don't know the reason or in what situation the Qurani verses was sent down.

The term is Asbab un Nuzul , means to intepret a verse, we must knowing first, the background incident following that verse was sent down.

Example

1780 Sahih International And say, "My Lord, cause me to enter a sound entrance and to exit a sound exit and grant me from Yourself a supporting authority."

Background of this verse was sent down

At-Tirmidzi cited from Ibn Abbas if in the past when Phrophet Muhammad lived in Mekkah then was ordered by GOD to did hijrah.
Then this verse was sent down {1780} And say, "My Lord, cause me to enter a sound entrance and to exit a sound exit and grant me from Yourself a supporting authority."

This hadith also been supported by Ibn Mardawaih and also been cited by Imam Qurthubi.

Please learn about asbab un Nuzul to know more the examples.

[muslims]

As usual, ignoring the issue of this discussion and all answers . . .
and another inconsistencies with your previous statement . . .

Why are you discussing about the hadith and supporting the killing of innocent peoples ? laugh

I ever heard a quote from a cleric.
He said "We must follow the God's teaching not make God's teaching to follow manmade laws and civillization"

Until now I still agreed with that quote.

Hadith is a man-made law
Muhammad is a man
So as Bukhari & Co, ulama etc. . .
They are all men, and their law are man-made law.

Your statements are always contradicting with each other and full of inconsistencies. . .

. . .

Why you're so being stubborn like this.

I told you, I'm not a Quran Alone follower anymore.
I already prove mineself, if withouth the hadith the Quran will sound stranger.

Brother, are you blind ? Do you know Usul al-Fiqh ? I believe you do. . .

I'm referring you to the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence, and the Usul al-Fiqh is not the Quran alone ideology. . .

Priority of the Quran over the Sunnah
A Sunnah is the second source of the Shari'ah next to the Qur'an,
the mujtahid is bound to observe an order of priority between the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hence in his search for a solution to a particular problem,
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence; p.58 Second Revised Edition; Mohammad Hashim Kamali

Killing people through public sentence is a matter of Islamic Jurisprudence, and . . .

Your people have sentenced those Ahmadiyyah to be killed simply because of their belief (hablum minallah)
They have not committed any injustice relating to hablum minannas

You supported their action and said that the Ahmadiyya deserved to be killed like that, ie. like animals !
and what they did is like what the kafir did to our Prophets !
Public killings and rajam, (18.20, 26.116, 36.18 and 44.20)

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwNuVTuT0vQ
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_GTRcKq_I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ReNSqqVeU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0S4qUQWzU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

According to hadith, the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah.
Also in hadith, Ahmadiyah will labelled as "raddad".Same as murtad, they will get death sentence if they're not repent.

On the other hand, I have made a counterargument against the hadith and given you the ayat from the Quran
I have proven that your belief and the hadith in inconsistent with the Quran
I have proven that it is inconsistent with the principle of Islamic Jurisprudence, Usul al-Fiqh
Clear authority . . . no compulsion in religion ! . .and as long no direct physical harm to the members of the society

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then the hadith etc. . .

Wishful thinking. . . prove from the Quran, then the hadith. . . then Ijma, Bible, Torah, Qiyas etc.
Again, and according to priority. . .

1. Quran
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
2. Hadith
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
3. Ijma (consensus of opinion relating to similarities (incl. hadith) with specific verses from the Bible, Torah etc)
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
4. Qiyas (analogical reasoning relating to similarities (incl. hadith) with
   non specific verses from the Bible, Torah, Traditions, Man-made law etc)
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
5. Istihsan (equity), Maslahah Mursalah (considerations of public interest),
   Istishab (presumption of continuity), Ijtihad (logic, critical thinking) etc . . . .
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
6. Lastly. . . your opinion.

And in anything over which you disagree <- I disagree with the above facts and your rulings
its ruling is to Allah . <- ie. the Quran
, "That is Allah , my Lord <- Muhammad said this, therefore it is a hadith and it is not his decision anymore. . .
upon Him I have relied It is therefore not to be decided from the hadith,
and to Him I turn back." and obviously not your ulama, but is is the Quran
4210

Therefore where is the ayat from the Quran to support such killings ?

[Man_of_Faith]

Why you're so being stubborn like this.

I told you, I'm not a Quran Alone follower anymore.
I already prove mineself, if withouth the hadith the Quran will sound stranger.

The message of the Recitation (Qur'an) is very simple and there is no context necessary to understand to be able to know what it advocates. Regardless, it is simply a recitation although likely divinely inspired, but it would be as correct to follow the guidelines given to Moses in terms of the often so-called "Ten Commandments". I would not consider the hearsay of Muhammad to be truly a divinely inspired source as it is mostly nonsense to be read in the hearsay (hadith).

The problem is that there is no religion but only a system of God, and that is not based on a weird discourse "a'la" al-bukhari & co. Should you do good and believe then that is basically all it takes to adopt God's system (or "deen" if you prefer to say so), and the variables previously released were guidelines to help the crowd manage the test, i.e. Moses' torah and Jesus' Gospel.

We cannot intepret Quran withouth the hadith parameter, because we don't know the reason or in what situation the Qurani verses was sent down.

We know what the Arabic discourse of the Recitation means and that is not thanks to some hadith. The language is not preserved thanks to such things but that people keep speaking a language and that there is old literature still around.

The term is Asbab un Nuzul , means to intepret a verse, we must knowing first, the background incident following that verse was sent down.

We need to know what the verse literally means and often in the context within. If the context is unclear then it is not necessary to know the original intention with the narration.

Example

1780 Sahih International And say, "My Lord, cause me to enter a sound entrance and to exit a sound exit and grant me from Yourself a supporting authority."

Background of this verse was sent down

At-Tirmidzi cited from Ibn Abbas if in the past when Phrophet Muhammad lived in Mekkah then was ordered by GOD to did hijrah.
Then this verse was sent down {1780} And say, "My Lord, cause me to enter a sound entrance and to exit a sound exit and grant me from Yourself a supporting authority."

This hadith also been supported by Ibn Mardawaih and also been cited by Imam Qurthubi.

Please learn about asbab un Nuzul to know more the examples.

This does not make any sense to what you are writing if you see the context of the narration of the recitation. Check the surrounding verses here

1777 Such was the way of those whom We had sent before you of Our missionaries. And you will not find any change in Our way.
1778 Hold the communion till the setting of the sun; to the murkiness of the night; and the recitation at dawn - the recitation at dawn is witnessed.
1779 And from the night, as an addition, you shall reflect upon it for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you a station that is praiseworthy.
1780 And say ?My Lord, admit me an entrance of truth and let me exit an exit of truth, and grant me from Yourself a support to victory.?
1781 And say ?The truth has come and falsehood has perished. Falsehood is always bound to perish!?
1782 And We send down from the recitation what is a healing and mercy to the believers. And it only increases the wicked in their loss.

Obviously this phrase is a prayer depending on the context or the narration would not use a 'wa' (and) in the beginning of the phrase. See the above verse (green) for when the phrase should be used below.

Red Corrections by me.

But even if the "hadith" was true about the context it would not make any difference as you would not need to understand it.

God bless you

[David_Saidi]

Salaam muslims and Man of Faith

For @muslims

Why are you discussing about the hadith and supporting the killing of innocent peoples ? laugh

It's the main proof if you're lack of knowledge of Islam

Who said I supporting killing the Papuan?? and where is the relation with the Islam??

Hadith is a man-made law
Muhammad is a man
So as Bukhari & Co, ulama etc. . .
They are all men, and their law are man-made law.

The second main proof if you're lack of Islamic knowledge.

Hadith is manmade? then who are the people who wrote the translations and Quran mushaf you hold right now?

Quran is God's revelations to Muhammad and Muhammad is the living example (mubbaligh) for how to practice Islam.

332 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.

If we're allowed to intepret Quran ourself withouth Muhammad's guide, then the hadith are solely useless!!.

So Muhammad's hadith are manmade laws, just because he is just a human?? ??? ??? hypno confused

Your people have sentenced those Ahmadiyyah to be killed simply because of their belief (hablum minallah)

Who is my people?? My people is simply muslims who loyal to God and His messeggers including Muhammad (saw)

Ahmadiyah is put the high treason against Islam, hijacked God's teaching, then you think the muslims will allowed such kind of things??
Yes according to human right it's unjustice, but according to GOD it's a justice to prevent the people corrupting the Islam more massively.

They have not committed any injustice relating to hablum minannas

Crime against Allah (minallah) will get more worse punishment rather than crime against human (minannas).
Ahmadiya deserve it because they did crime against Allah.

You supported their action and said that the Ahmadiyya deserved to be killed like that, ie. like animals !
and what they did is like what the kafir did to our Prophets !
Public killings and rajam, (18.20, 26.116, 36.18 and 44.20)

Perhaps if I answer this, you will not believe to me.
The only solution is read hadith and tafseer, the more you learn them the more you understand the Quran.

On the other hand, I have made a counterargument against the hadith and given you the ayat from the Quran
I have proven that your belief and the hadith in inconsistent with the Quran
I have proven that it is inconsistent with the principle of Islamic Jurisprudence, Usul al-Fiqh
Clear authority . . . no compulsion in religion ! . .and as long no direct physical harm to the members of the society

Reject hadith then just leave Islam and play speculations as you wish.
Islam is already been concepted for along time, Quran, hadith, tafseer are collected and formated with proper methodology and already been taught in legal Islamic schools for along time too.

The message of the Quran is "would you compel the people in order that they become believers?"
and . . "So remind, ; you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller."
and the is no compulsion in the deen. . .

Looks like I must be patient when talk to you.
How many times I must said "asbab ul nuzul"??

I started to get bored to explain to you, and read this yourself

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbab_al-nuzul

Simple you cited and intepret Quran as your own desire, using translations created by muhaddith and mufassir, no knowledge of Arabic al nahw, avoided asbab al nuzul.
You're none but speculators like Quran Alone follower.

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then the hadith etc. . .

Hadith and tafseer is needed for understand Quran.
How to understand Islam is we need to learnt it from Phrophet, since he is a living example.

What is Quran?? Quran is book of wahy who recorded the conversation between Allah and Muhammad.
Since we have no authority, the sahabah and us follow Muhammad for what we must do.

3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.

Intepret Quran withouth Muhammed's examples, then you're just a mere speculators

Just like this example

And in anything over which you disagree <- I disagree with the above facts and your rulings
its ruling is to Allah . <- ie. the Quran
, "That is Allah , my Lord <- Muhammad said this, therefore it is a hadith and it is not his decision anymore. . .
upon Him I have relied It is therefore not to be decided from the hadith,
and to Him I turn back." and obviously not your ulama, but is is the Quran
4210

You spoke like you're a Phrophet and intepret without knowing azbabul ul nuzul

[muslims]

I give up, it's getting no where . . giveup

All I can see is you are repeating your baseless opinion
lack of understanding of the issue of discussion
no valid conclusion, no valid premises and no valid assumptions
ignoring every answers, issues and using blank denials
lack of understanding of the Usul al Fiqh and the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence
and the using of fallacy as your main argument, ie. ad hominem etc . .

and which I'm not interested to reply anymore since it is circular reasoning and full of inconsistencies, mumbling from the start till the end.

The conclusion, it is not reasoning, and it is full of inconsistencies . . .

Last message, stop killing and murdering innocent people in the name of Allah & Islam . . .

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth,"
They say, "We are but reformers."
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive not.
211-12

[David_Saidi]

For Man of Faith

I would not consider the hearsay of Muhammad to be truly a divinely inspired source as it is mostly nonsense to be read in the hearsay (hadith).

Why you labeled hadith as hearsay while it's already been well precribed and transmitted since the sahabah (companion) era.

The problem is that there is no religion but only a system of God, and that is not based on a weird discourse "a'la" al-bukhari & co.

Bukhari is not the first person who collecting hadith but just re-collecting, some people who ever met the Phrophet also collecting the hadith like Abd Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'As who wrote Al-Sahifah al-Sadiqah (The Truthful Scripts).

Before Bukhari & co started collecting hadith, the Islamic schools like Maliki, Hanbali already existed for along time during the Phrophet eras.

Bukhari & co graduated from the schools and started the journey to re-collecting hadith from many Islamic schools, because in the past the writting medias is not as right now.

We need to know what the verse literally means and often in the context within. If the context is unclear then it is not necessary to know the original intention with the narration.

Then you will only play speculations until the last day.

May God always blessing you

[David_Saidi]

lack of understanding of the Usul al Fiqh and the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence

It's you actually.
Your lack is only one avoid asbab un Nuzul

Last message, stop killing and murdering innocent people in the name of Allah & Islam . . .

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth,"
They say, "We are but reformers."
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive not.
211-12

And also stop act like you're a Phrophet who received the wahy.
I only believe Muhammad's explanation, hadith and example regarding the Quran not you

You're not follower of Allah, but simply just a heretic.

[muslims]

he. . . laugh

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

[David_Saidi]

he. . . laugh

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

Heheeee
The hadith are collected with proper methodology and was sent down by thruswosthy people like sahabah and via Islamic schools and libraries

No hadith = there is no Quran mushaf and translations you used right now.
It's like you enjoy for eating cake, but mocking a person who cook the cake.

[muslims]

Heheeee
The hadith are collected with proper methodology and was sent down by thruswosthy people like sahabah and via Islamic schools and libraries

proven, circular reasoning . . . very simple! laugh

No hadith = there is no Quran mushaf and translations you used right now.
It's like you enjoy for eating cake, but mocking a person who cook the cake.

See? No understanding of the issue and no discipline in the Islamic Jurisprudence,
blindly following "People of the Book". . regeneration of the mistakes of the past. . .
over and over again. . . without using reason.

Allah has not appointed bahirah or sa'ibah or wasilah or ham. But those who disbelieve invent falsehood about Allah , and most of them do not reason. And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," they say, "Sufficient for us is that upon which we found our fathers." Even though their fathers knew nothing, nor were they guided? 5.103-104

You're not follower of Allah, but simply just a heretic.

Really? how many times have you changed your religion?
From Sunni, to Quranism, to atheism, to agonism, and then back to Sunni.. what else I do not know ? Hinduism? Buddhism? Christianity? rotfl