What is Islam?

[David_Saidi]

Salaam muslims.
(Sorry for made you wait, since I'm busy ) )

The Quran is analogous to the "Constitution", and the hadith is analogous to the "Statutory Law"
Before any Statutory Law is valid, there must be the main principle in the Constitution . .
This is equally true in the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence and Usul Al Fiqh
Before any hadith etc is valid, there must be the main principle in the Quran . .

The whole of ur arguments, this is your most main point.
I already read M H Kamali's works and I know the fact if you failed to understand his work.

To further, please answer this question first Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran?

[muslims]

Salaam muslims.
(Sorry for made you wait, since I'm busy ) )

No problem brother, takes your time.

I already read M H Kamali's works and I know the fact if you failed to understand his work.

To further, please answer this question first Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran?

Really ? Do you understand what you read and the issue of our discussion ?

I think you should read again, and again . . .
because you clearly still do not understand the subject, and the issue of our discussion . .

The Quran is analogous to the "Constitution", and the hadith is analogous to the "Statutory Law"
Before any Statutory Law is valid, there must be the main principle in the Constitution . .
This is equally true in the Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence and Usul Al Fiqh
Before any hadith etc is valid, there must be the main principle in the Quran . .

Therefore, where is the Ayat ?

This is the first stage to determine the legality of any action or rule of laws. . .

Where are the Verse and Chapter that allow such killings, oppressions and barbarianism ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449

and if you want to treat the hadith as explaining about the Quran
then "there must be a subject to be explained" by the hadith
the root of a tree . . the "sources of fiqh"

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

Therefore the issue is . . . where is the subject to be explained by the hadith ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

and . . .

This is the first stage. . . before you are qualified to discuss the rules from the hadith, ijma, qiyas, ijtihad and fatwa etc.

Verse and Chapter that allowed such killings and oppressions ?

Don't fail at the first stage . . . laugh

. . . therefore, provide your reason

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

vs . . .

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

[muslims]

Usul al-fiqh, or the roots of Islamic law, expound the indications and methods by which the rules of fiqh are deduced from their sources. These indications are found mainly in the Qur'an and Sunnah, which are the principal sources of the Shari'ah. The rules of fiqh are thus derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah in conformity with a body of principles and methods which are collectively known as usul al-fiqh. Some writers have described usul al-fiqh as the methodology of law, a description which is accurate but incomplete. Although the methods of interpretation and deduction are of primary concern to usul alfiqh, the latter is not exclusively devoted to methodology. To say that usul al-fiqh is the science of the sources and methodology of the law is accurate in the sense that the Qur?an and Sunnah constitute the sources as well as the subject matter to which the methodology of usul al-fiqh is applied. The Qur?an and Sunnah themselves, however, contain very little by way of methodology, but rather provide the indications from which the rules of Shari?ah can be deduced. The methodology of usul al-fiqh really refers to methods of reasoning such as analogy (qiyas), juristic preference (istihsan), presumption of continuity (istishab) and the rules of interpretation and deduction. These are designed to serve as an aid to the correct understanding of the sources and ijtihad.

To deduce the rules of fiqh from the indications that are provided in the sources is the expressed purpose of usul al-fiqh. Fiqh as such is the end product of usul al-fiqh; and yet the two are separate disciplines. The main difference between fiqh and usul al-fiqh is that the former is concerned with the knowledge of the detailed rules of Islamic law in its various branches, and the latter with the methods that are applied in the deduction of such rules from their sources. Fiqh, in other words, is the law itself whereas usul al-fiqh is the methodology of the law. The relationship between the two disciplines resembles that of the rules of grammar to a language, or of logic (mantiq) to philosophy. Usul al-fiqh in this sense provides standard criteria for the correct deduction of the rules of fiqh from the sources of Shari?ah. An adequate knowledge of fiqh necessitates close familiarity with its sources. This is borne out in the definition of fiqh, which is 'knowledge of the practical rules of Shari?ah acquired from the detailed evidence in the sources'. The knowledge of the rules of fiqh, in other words, must be acquired directly from the sources, a requirement which implies that the faqih must be in contact with the sources of fiqh. Consequently a person who learns the fiqh in isolation from its sources is not a faqih. The faqih must know not only the rule that misappropriating the property of others is forbidden but also the detailed evidence for it in the source, that is, the Qur?anic ayah (218 which provides 'Devour not each other's property in defiance of the law.' This is the detailed evidence, as opposed to saying merely that 'theft is forbidden in the Qur'an'.

Knowledge of the rules of interpretation is essential to the proper understanding of a legal text. Unless the text of the Qur?an or the Sunnah is correctly understood, no rules can be deduced from it, especially in cases where the text in question is not self-evident. Hence rules by which one is to distinguish a speculative text from the definitive, the manifest (zahir) from the explicit (nass), the general ('aam) from the specific (khaas), the literal (haqiqi) from the metaphorical (majazi) etc., and how to understand the implications (dalalat) of a given text are among the subjects which warrant attention in the study of usul al-fiqh. An adequate grasp of the methodology and rules of interpretation also ensures the proper use of human reasoning in a system of law which originates in divine revelation.

Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence
http//www.tayseerulquran.com/userfiles/147file14569.pdf

and what is the methodology ?

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then we go to hadith, ijma and qiyas etc. . .
You keep ignoring the issue, please refer to the usul al fiqh

Priority of the Quran over the Sunnah
A Sunnah is the second source of the Shari'ah next to the Qur'an,
the mujtahid is bound to observe an order of priority between the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hence in his search for a solution to a particular problem,
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence; p.58 Second Revised Edition; Mohammad Hashim Kamali

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

[David_Saidi]

Salaam

Yes I know our issue of our discussion

. . . therefore, provide your reason

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

From Abdullah bin Mas'ud ra, that the Messenger of Allah said

"It is not lawful blood of a Muslim who has testified that there is no god to worship except Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, except in three of the following; someone who converted from Islam and left the jama'ah, people who are married but adultery and killing someone else. "(Shaheh Muslim)

From Ikrimah

"Some People of Zindeeq arrested and brought before Ali ra and Ali burnt them. The case was heard by Ibn Abbas, that he said If I do, will not burn them because there is a ban from the Holy Prophet said "Do not torment the punishment of Allah," and I still would have killed them according to the words of the Prophet "Who is change/ replacing his religion, kill him! "(Bukhari)

and etc

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

I also told you many times, why u aren't used asbabun nuzul rather than speculations to intepret Quran

From MH Kamali's Islamic Jurisprudence page 45

Ignorance of the asbab al-nuzul may thus lead to the omission or misunderstanding of a part or even the whole of an
injunction. Secondly, ignorance of asbab al-nuzal may lead to unwarranted
disagreement and even conflict. For the Qur'an comprises passages which are in the nature of
probability (zahir) and ambiguity (mujmal). Such instances in the text can be clarified by reference to
the circumstances in which they were received

[muslims]

Yes I know our issue of our discussion

No you don't look at your answer.

. . .

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

Again. . you have repeatedly failed to give the authority for such public sentences. . .
And you refer me to irrelevant ayat . .and interpret the ayat without proper methodology
Read again carefully . . Allah said "wrath from Allah" . .
It follows the punishment is from Allah

The ayat is irrelevant unless you are assuming you are Allah. . .

So. . where is the ayat to allow for such punishment ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

. . .

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

I'm fine with the tafseer, as long it is not contradicting any rules from the Quran . .
Contradictorily, the ayat is irrelevant, a clear distortion of the issue . . .
and in which case, it is clearly contradicting many verses from the Quran, including those I've presented in here.

Therefore, bring me the ayat. . . prove it. . .

This is the first stage .

. . .

I also told you many times, why u aren't used asbabun nuzul rather than speculations to intepret Quran

Brother, first stage . . do you understand usul al fiqh ?

The methodology for Islamic Jurisprudence ? and . .

Why are you keep using circular reasoning ? resorting to lower source of law ?
It's going no where, unless you can start prove it from the Quran first . . . according to its priority . laugh
Quran first, then hadith . . ijma and qiyas etc.

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

[David_Saidi]

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then we go to hadith, ijma and qiyas etc. . .
You keep ignoring the issue, please refer to the usul al fiqh

Priority of the Quran over the Sunnah
A Sunnah is the second source of the Shari'ah next to the Qur'an,
the mujtahid is bound to observe an order of priority between the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hence in his search for a solution to a particular problem,
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence; p.58 Second Revised Edition; Mohammad Hashim Kamali

You cited from MH KAmali's correctly but failed to understand it.

Quranic verses contains qatli (decisive) but some of them have zanni (indecisive/speculative) characteristics
To understand the zanni verses, hadith and tafseer are needed while the qatli verses mostly not

The example of qathi (decisive) is like this
If Quran said stealing is forbidden, then it's a decisive command.
You don't need the sunnah to understand it.

Example of zanni verses, I cited from same book page 31 ;

'Prohibited to you are your mothers and
your daughters' (al-Nisa 423). The text is definitive in regard to the prohibition of marriage with one?s
mother and daughter and there is no disagreement on this point. However, the word banatukum ('your
daughters&#039 could be taken for its literal meaning, which would be a female child born to a person either
through marriage or through zina, or for its juridical meaning. In the latter sense 'banatukum' can only
mean a legitimate daughter.

To give another example of zanni in the Qur?an, we may refer to the phrase yunfaw min al-ard ('to be
banished from the earth&#039 which occurs in sura al-Ma?idah (533). The phrase spells out the penalty for
highway robbery (hirabah), or according to an alternative but similar interpretation, for waging war on
the community and its legitimate leadership. Banishment (nafy) in this ayah can mean exile from the
place the offence is committed in the first place. This is, in fact, the obvious meaning of the phrase, and
the one which has been adopted by the majority of the ulema. But the Hanafi jurists maintain that the
phrase means imprisonment, not exile. According to the Hanafis, a literal approach to the interpretation
of this phrase does not prove to be satisfactory if one is to be literal, then how can one be banished
from the face of the earth by any method but death? Nafy, or exile, on the other hand, is a penalty other
than killing. Furthermore, if the offender is to be banished from one place to another within the Muslim
territories, the harm is not likely to be prevented as he may commit further offences. The Hanafis have
further argued that banishing a Muslim outside the territory of Islam is not legally permissible. The only
proper meaning of the phrase which would achieve the Shari?ah purpose behind the penalty, is,
therefore, imprisonment.

[David_Saidi]

Brother, first stage . . do you understand usul al fiqh ?

The methodology for Islamic Jurisprudence ? and . .

Why are you keep using circular reasoning ? It's going no where . . . laugh

Yes I understand and ever learnt it for along time.
It's you sir who don't understand it especially MH Kamali book

I told you to answer my question http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349594#msg349594

This is the key point of our discussion

[muslims]

Quranic verses contains qatli (decisive) but some of them have zanni (indecisive/speculative) characteristics
To understand the zanni verses, hadith and tafseer are needed while the qatli verses mostly not

I don't understand what are you saying. . . rule relating to killing people is indecisive ? So you can kill anyone you like ? rotfl

[muslims]

Yes I understand and ever learnt it for along time.
It's you sir who don't understand it especially MH Kamali book

I told you to answer my question http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349594#msg349594

This is the key point of our discussion

Therefore, the methodology said it must starts with the Quran. .
Why you start with ijma, what happen to your philosophy it is not the Quran follow the man made law ?
How hard can that be ? How hard for you to show one ayat from the Quran ?

There is no ayat, not even a single ayat ?
Then say so. . there is none ! Admit that you are liars in the name of Allah and Islam. . . that you are a group of criminals rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Wishful thinking. . . prove from the Quran, then the hadith. . . then Ijma, Bible, Torah, Qiyas etc.
Again, and according to priority. . .

1. Quran
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
2. Hadith
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
3. Ijma (consensus of opinion relating to similarities with specific verses from the Bible, Torah etc incl. hadith)
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKiMBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
4. Qiyas (analogical reasoning relating to similarities with
   non specific verses from the Bible, Torah, Traditions, Man-made law etc incl. hadith)
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKiMBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
5. Istihsan (equity), Maslahah Mursalah (considerations of public interest),
   Istishab (presumption of continuity), Ijtihad (logic, critical thinking) etc . . . .
   http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
6. Lastly. . . your opinion.

and. . why you are just ignoring every facts, and divert to irrelevant issues ?

. . .

I'm waiting . . . prove it!

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

[David_Saidi]

I don't understand what are you saying. . . rule relating to killing people is indecisive ? rotfl

Quran is wahy to Muhammad and to understand it we need Muhammad's sunnah.

From same book page 63

the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.

There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment

• Laws regarding picture
• Circumcision and etc

Quran is wahy, general command to Muhammad and Muhammad was also blessed by Al-Hikmah (wisdom n knowledges).
To follow the Al-Hikmah we need the hadith as the only records of Muhammad's example.

How hard for you to show one ayat from the Quran ?

I already show in my recent post, both frm Quran and hadith
In where?? Search yourself

[muslims]

Quran is wahy to Muhammad and to understand it we need Muhammad's sunnah.

From same book page 63

the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.

There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment

• Laws regarding picture
• Circumcision and etc

Quran is wahy, general command to Muhammad and Muhammad was also blessed by Al-Hikmah (wisdom n knowledges).
To follow the Al-Hikmah we need the hadith as the only records of Muhammad's example.

I already show in my recent post, both frm Quran and hadith
In where?? Search yourself

Again. . full of inconsistencies, I think you are just lying , over and over again . .
claiming what you never did, ignoring verses from the Quran. . and merely diverting the issue

The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

and . . .

How come they destroyed the following church ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Question Does the following ayat say Allah protected monasteries, churches, and synagogues ? Does it also means Allah protects other religions ?

Permission has been given to those who are being fought
because they were wronged
And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory
those who have been evicted from their homes without right
only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ."

And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others
there would have been demolished
(1) monasteries
(2) churches
(3) synagogues
(4) and mosques
in which the name of Allah is much mentioned
And Allah will surely support those who support Him
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might
(22.39-40)

So what are you saying ?

It is clear that there is freedom of religion and Muhammad cannot force the disbelievers to believe in Islam

However, you are better and special than Muhammad because you can force and kill people ?

Who you think you are ? Son of God ? rotfl

. . .

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

[David_Saidi]

Look brother.... if you see this discussion as debate then you already lost
The proof is you always repeating the questions which I already answered before

Again. . I think you are just lying , over and over again . .
claiming what you never did, and ignoring verses from the Quran.

Now you accused me as a liar, you starting to lack of common sense
Dear brother you're not scholar, sahaba, mufassir or something, and even Classical fusha of Arabic.
But why you so confidence to intepret Quran with many speculations?? (avoid asbabul nuzul etc)

The Quran is not silent on this issue and look the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

For "Quran is silent", I only cited from the book you used as source (not mine words).

Quran's format is general commandment not protocols.
Al- Hikmah (wisdom, sunnah, some of Allah knowledges) are not written entirely in the Quran, but prescribed inside Muhammad.

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.

[muslims]

Look brother.... if you see this discussion as debate then you already lost
The proof is you always repeating the questions which I already answered before

What repeating ? You don't even passed the first stage. . the Quran . . and you are trying hard to make Allah obey your rules , as your servant !

and in fact, you don't even read the answer
and worst. . you don't even read what you wrote and therefore contradicting itself, over and over again , so many times . . rotfl

. . .

Now you accuse me as liar, you started to lack of common sense
Dear brother you're not scholar, sahaba, mufassir or something, even you don't understand Classical fusha of Arabic.
But why you so confidence to intepret Quran with many speculations?? (avoid asbabul nuzul etc)

Of course I'm confident, because it is a clear contradiction with the Quran and common sense . .

You must be joking, kill anyone who don't follow your rules ?
What about their interpretations ?

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.

Again . . .inconsistencies with your own statement and prove of hypocrisy ? rotfl

. . .

Further, it is not clear to you because those people are your "God"

Say, "Bring forward your witnesses <- Bukhari & Co
who will testify <- through those Kitab
that Allah has prohibited this."

And if they testify <- including by way of hadith

DO NOT testify with them <- ie. through madhab
And DO NOT follow the desires of those who deny Our verses <- disbelievers
and those who do not believe in the Hereafter
while they equate with their Lord <- shirk
(6150)

. . .

For "Quran is silent", I only cited from the book you used as source (not mine words).

Quran's format is general commandment not protocols.
Al- Hikmah (wisdom, sunnah, some of Allah knowledges) are not written in the Quran, but prescribed inside Muhammad.

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.

How many times I have to repeat ?
The Quran is not silent on the issue and why you want to make the Quran to be silent ? laugh

The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

and . .

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

. . .

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

So you wish to become God ? ;D

Read again carefully . . Allah said "wrath from Allah" . .
It follows the punishment is from Allah

The ayat is irrelevant unless you are assuming you are Allah. . .

. . .

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.

That's why I'm asking you . . . where is the ayat from the Quran ?

You should answer, unless you are a disbeliever and don't believe in the Quran . . .

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

Stop killing in the name of Allah and Islam !

[David_Saidi]

What repeating ? You don't even passed the first stage. . the Quran . . and you are trying hard to make Allah obey your rules , as your servant !

Dear brother......... someone need to mastering tafseer ,hadith and Classical Arab first before he capable to understand and translate the Quran including the translation you used right now.

I already told you, please answer this Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran??

This is related well with this case, but it seems you always avoid for answering.

Of course I'm confident, because it is a clear contradiction with the Quran and common sense . .

There is a shahih hadith

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.?

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4604)

This hadith is a properchy about you guys who rejecting hadith or just see it as man-made laws.

Plus you who said "Buckhari co".What's wrong with Bukhari co??

The Quran is not silent on the issue and why you want to make the Quran to be silent ? laugh

Quran is silent because it's a record of conversation between Allah and Muhammad (saw) not complete guide like in the Bible.
Quran also confirms if Allah already blessed Muhammad with Islamic knowledges (risalah).
And from that Muhammad risalah, we capable to understand Islam and Quran.

I believe you also reject something like grave punishment, circumcision, forbids for anal sex and etc

That's why I'm asking you . . . where is the ayat ?

I already answer it before...

[muslims]

Dear brother......... someone need to mastering tafseer ,hadith and Classical Arab first before he capable to understand and translate the Quran including the translation you used right now.

I already told you, please answer this Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran??

This is related well with this case, but it seems you always avoid for answering.

I'm getting boring with your confusion . . do you understand our conversation ?

We are the first stage, and we are speaking about the Principle of Jurisprudence , Usul al Fiqh . . .

We are the process of identifying the main principle from the Quran, and then we will go to the hadith . . ijma and qiyas, according to the accepted principles of methodology for arriving a sound rule of law. . .

Further . I am a hadith follower . . so why you bring up the issue ?

Don't you remember that I am a hadith follower from the start and remaining the same all my life , while you are . . .
a Sunni (CIA Sunni?)
and then becoming the Quranist
and then becoming the Mu'tazilite
and then becoming an Atheist
and then becoming an Agonist . .
then . . repentance and turn back to the Sunni ?

ie. your siggy

Former Quranist, atheist, agnostic, Mu'tazille.
Now just simply BACK TO NATURE

What else you want to become, after this ? rotfl

. . .

This hadith is a properchy about you guys who rejecting hadith or just see it as man-made laws.

Since when Muhammad etc is not a man ?

Yeap. . right, I forgot. . those people are your God. (6150) laugh

. . .

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

[David_Saidi]

I'm getting boring with your confusion . . do you understand our conversation ? rotfl

We are the first stage, and we are speaking about the Principle of Jurisprudence , Usul al Fiqh . . .

We are the process of identifying the main principle from the Quran, and then we will go to the hadith . .

Further . I am also a hadith followers . . so why you bring up the issue ?

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

[muslims]

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

The great circular reasong, for so many pages . . .

Try to prove it form facts and consistent rules with the Quran , rather than using fallacies . . rotfl

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

. . .

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Again . . and I don't have to repeat this silly issue . .

You must be joking, kill anyone who don't follow your rules ?

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

. . .

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

Yes, implementation . . ie. follow the rules and not opposing the rules , therefore where is the ayat ?

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

. . .

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Al-Hikmah does not mean disobeying clear facts, rules and principles from the Quran .

Prove . . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

And DO NOT eat of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you
and if you obey them, you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists. (6121)

Therefore, where is the ayat from the Quran ?

. . .

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

We are speaking about dead people, not dead animal . . .

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Therefore where is the ayat ?

Where is the ayat ?

Where is the ayat ?

[muslims]

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

Nope. . are you trying to distort Allah's words ?

The following verse 16106 mentions nothing at all about killing the disbelievers !
and it also follows that the hadith is irrelevant to the ayat.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

From Abdullah bin Mas'ud ra, that the Messenger of Allah said

"It is not lawful blood of a Muslim who has testified that there is no god to worship except Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, except in three of the following; someone who converted from Islam and left the jama'ah, people who are married but adultery and killing someone else. "(Shaheh Muslim)

From Ikrimah

"Some People of Zindeeq arrested and brought before Ali ra and Ali burnt them. The case was heard by Ibn Abbas, that he said If I do, will not burn them because there is a ban from the Holy Prophet said "Do not torment the punishment of Allah," and I still would have killed them according to the words of the Prophet "Who is change/ replacing his religion, kill him! "(Bukhari)

Again. . you have repeatedly failed to give the authority for such public sentences. . .
And you refer me to irrelevant ayat . .and interpret the ayat without proper methodology
Read again carefully . . Allah said "wrath from Allah" . .
It follows the punishment is from Allah

The ayat is irrelevant unless you are assuming you are Allah. . .

So. . where is the ayat to allow for such punishment ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

So. . where is the ayat ?

[Man_of_Faith]

Peace,

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Your biggest mistake is likely that you involve nonsense to interpret "the real thing".

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Can you please write me the passage in the recitation that says this?

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

And he not the only rasool either.

Red Implementation of Islam? What implementation other than what you already see in the decree do you need?

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

This is one of the most abused phrases in the recitation. People forget to think about what exactly is to be obeyed, i.e. what is the decree taught.

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

It is always possible to apply logic and reason in the interpretation also. It is obviously cadaver found in nature such as those killed by other animals. The prohibition could be so that possible disease is not spread unto humans. And an animal that dies by itself could likely be carrying some illness. I think the decree is quite common sense without involving religious ideas.

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

Or we could have common sense knowledge.

God bless you

[David_Saidi]

Salaam muslims

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.
Plus there are many evidences, if some heretic and murtadz people been punished both during Phrophet and Caliphate era

Plus for that christian church, it's HKBP (Huria Christian Batak Protestant), the Bataknese church.
This chuch always against the laws a.k.a they always build the church illegally withouth registered the SKBP certificate.

The muslims crowds is just shouting themself and the one who operate bulldozer of course the government agent.