What is Islam?

David_Saidi

Therefore, give the authority from the Quran first, and then we go to hadith, ijma and qiyas etc. . .
You keep ignoring the issue, please refer to the usul al fiqh

Priority of the Quran over the Sunnah
A Sunnah is the second source of the Shari'ah next to the Qur'an,
the mujtahid is bound to observe an order of priority between the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hence in his search for a solution to a particular problem,
the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.
Should there be a clear text in the Qur'an, it must be followed and be given priority over any ruling of the Sunnah
which may happen to be in conflict with the Qur'an
Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence; p.58 Second Revised Edition; Mohammad Hashim Kamali

You cited from MH KAmali's correctly but failed to understand it.

Quranic verses contains qatli (decisive) but some of them have zanni (indecisive/speculative) characteristics
To understand the zanni verses, hadith and tafseer are needed while the qatli verses mostly not

The example of qathi (decisive) is like this
If Quran said stealing is forbidden, then it's a decisive command.
You don't need the sunnah to understand it.

Example of zanni verses, I cited from same book page 31 ;

'Prohibited to you are your mothers and
your daughters' (al-Nisa 423). The text is definitive in regard to the prohibition of marriage with one?s
mother and daughter and there is no disagreement on this point. However, the word banatukum ('your
daughters&#039 could be taken for its literal meaning, which would be a female child born to a person either
through marriage or through zina, or for its juridical meaning. In the latter sense 'banatukum' can only
mean a legitimate daughter.

To give another example of zanni in the Qur?an, we may refer to the phrase yunfaw min al-ard ('to be
banished from the earth&#039 which occurs in sura al-Ma?idah (533). The phrase spells out the penalty for
highway robbery (hirabah), or according to an alternative but similar interpretation, for waging war on
the community and its legitimate leadership. Banishment (nafy) in this ayah can mean exile from the
place the offence is committed in the first place. This is, in fact, the obvious meaning of the phrase, and
the one which has been adopted by the majority of the ulema. But the Hanafi jurists maintain that the
phrase means imprisonment, not exile. According to the Hanafis, a literal approach to the interpretation
of this phrase does not prove to be satisfactory if one is to be literal, then how can one be banished
from the face of the earth by any method but death? Nafy, or exile, on the other hand, is a penalty other
than killing. Furthermore, if the offender is to be banished from one place to another within the Muslim
territories, the harm is not likely to be prevented as he may commit further offences. The Hanafis have
further argued that banishing a Muslim outside the territory of Islam is not legally permissible. The only
proper meaning of the phrase which would achieve the Shari?ah purpose behind the penalty, is,
therefore, imprisonment.

David_Saidi

Brother, first stage . . do you understand usul al fiqh ?

The methodology for Islamic Jurisprudence ? and . .

Why are you keep using circular reasoning ? It's going no where . . . laugh

Yes I understand and ever learnt it for along time.
It's you sir who don't understand it especially MH Kamali book

I told you to answer my question http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349594#msg349594

This is the key point of our discussion

muslims

Quranic verses contains qatli (decisive) but some of them have zanni (indecisive/speculative) characteristics
To understand the zanni verses, hadith and tafseer are needed while the qatli verses mostly not

I don't understand what are you saying. . . rule relating to killing people is indecisive ? So you can kill anyone you like ? rotfl

muslims

Yes I understand and ever learnt it for along time.
It's you sir who don't understand it especially MH Kamali book

I told you to answer my question http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349594#msg349594

This is the key point of our discussion

Therefore, the methodology said it must starts with the Quran. .
Why you start with ijma, what happen to your philosophy it is not the Quran follow the man made law ?
How hard can that be ? How hard for you to show one ayat from the Quran ?

There is no ayat, not even a single ayat ?
Then say so. . there is none ! Admit that you are liars in the name of Allah and Islam. . . that you are a group of criminals rotfl

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Wishful thinking. . . prove from the Quran, then the hadith. . . then Ijma, Bible, Torah, Qiyas etc.
Again, and according to priority. . .

Quran
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Hadith
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Ijma (consensus of opinion relating to similarities with specific verses from the Bible, Torah etc incl. hadith)
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKiMBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Qiyas (analogical reasoning relating to similarities with
non specific verses from the Bible, Torah, Traditions, Man-made law etc incl. hadith)
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKiMBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Istihsan (equity), Maslahah Mursalah (considerations of public interest),
Istishab (presumption of continuity), Ijtihad (logic, critical thinking) etc . . . .
http//api.ning.com/files/uGCxg7sZSOsBbNwvSUN0m6uFBP5OUvR7e-3lYPcnfzzdki1NKdfBKi*MBEzKhhqFLbCaNgzbOCTwHTwBFp0cz3nyqUP-l7F1/arrowDownSmall.png
Lastly. . . your opinion.

and. . why you are just ignoring every facts, and divert to irrelevant issues ?

. . .

I'm waiting . . . prove it!

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

David_Saidi

I don't understand what are you saying. . . rule relating to killing people is indecisive ? rotfl

Quran is wahy to Muhammad and to understand it we need Muhammad's sunnah.

From same book page 63

the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.

There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment

Laws regarding picture
Circumcision and etc

Quran is wahy, general command to Muhammad and Muhammad was also blessed by Al-Hikmah (wisdom n knowledges).
To follow the Al-Hikmah we need the hadith as the only records of Muhammad's example.

How hard for you to show one ayat from the Quran ?

I already show in my recent post, both frm Quran and hadith
In where?? Search yourself

muslims

Quran is wahy to Muhammad and to understand it we need Muhammad's sunnah.

From same book page 63

the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.

There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment

Laws regarding picture
Circumcision and etc

Quran is wahy, general command to Muhammad and Muhammad was also blessed by Al-Hikmah (wisdom n knowledges).
To follow the Al-Hikmah we need the hadith as the only records of Muhammad's example.

I already show in my recent post, both frm Quran and hadith
In where?? Search yourself

Again. . full of inconsistencies, I think you are just lying , over and over again . .
claiming what you never did, ignoring verses from the Quran. . and merely diverting the issue

The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

and . . .

How come they destroyed the following church ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Question Does the following ayat say Allah protected monasteries, churches, and synagogues ? Does it also means Allah protects other religions ?

Permission has been given to those who are being fought
because they were wronged
And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory
those who have been evicted from their homes without right
only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ."

And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others
there would have been demolished
(1) monasteries
(2) churches
(3) synagogues
(4) and mosques
in which the name of Allah is much mentioned
And Allah will surely support those who support Him
Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might
(22.39-40)

So what are you saying ?

It is clear that there is freedom of religion and Muhammad cannot force the disbelievers to believe in Islam

However, you are better and special than Muhammad because you can force and kill people ?

Who you think you are ? Son of God ? rotfl

. . .

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

David_Saidi

Look brother.... if you see this discussion as debate then you already lost
The proof is you always repeating the questions which I already answered before

Again. . I think you are just lying , over and over again . .
claiming what you never did, and ignoring verses from the Quran.

Now you accused me as a liar, you starting to lack of common sense
Dear brother you're not scholar, sahaba, mufassir or something, and even Classical fusha of Arabic.
But why you so confidence to intepret Quran with many speculations?? (avoid asbabul nuzul etc)

The Quran is not silent on this issue and look the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

For "Quran is silent", I only cited from the book you used as source (not mine words).

Quran's format is general commandment not protocols.
Al- Hikmah (wisdom, sunnah, some of Allah knowledges) are not written entirely in the Quran, but prescribed inside Muhammad.

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.

muslims

Look brother.... if you see this discussion as debate then you already lost
The proof is you always repeating the questions which I already answered before

What repeating ? You don't even passed the first stage. . the Quran . . and you are trying hard to make Allah obey your rules , as your servant !

and in fact, you don't even read the answer
and worst. . you don't even read what you wrote and therefore contradicting itself, over and over again , so many times . . rotfl

. . .

Now you accuse me as liar, you started to lack of common sense
Dear brother you're not scholar, sahaba, mufassir or something, even you don't understand Classical fusha of Arabic.
But why you so confidence to intepret Quran with many speculations?? (avoid asbabul nuzul etc)

Of course I'm confident, because it is a clear contradiction with the Quran and common sense . .

You must be joking, kill anyone who don't follow your rules ?
What about their interpretations ?

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.

Again . . .inconsistencies with your own statement and prove of hypocrisy ? rotfl

. . .

Further, it is not clear to you because those people are your "God"

Say, "Bring forward your witnesses <- Bukhari & Co
who will testify <- through those Kitab
that Allah has prohibited this."

And if they testify <- including by way of hadith

DO NOT testify with them <- ie. through madhab
And DO NOT follow the desires of those who deny Our verses <- disbelievers
and those who do not believe in the Hereafter
while they equate with their Lord <- shirk
(6150)

. . .

For "Quran is silent", I only cited from the book you used as source (not mine words).

Quran's format is general commandment not protocols.
Al- Hikmah (wisdom, sunnah, some of Allah knowledges) are not written in the Quran, but prescribed inside Muhammad.

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.

How many times I have to repeat ?
The Quran is not silent on the issue and why you want to make the Quran to be silent ? laugh

The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

and . .

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

. . .

I already replied for it http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

So you wish to become God ? ;D

Read again carefully . . Allah said "wrath from Allah" . .
It follows the punishment is from Allah

The ayat is irrelevant unless you are assuming you are Allah. . .

. . .

There are many probabilities in result of intepretation.You intepret the Quran like that, but other people may have different intepretations.

That's why I'm asking you . . . where is the ayat from the Quran ?

You should answer, unless you are a disbeliever and don't believe in the Quran . . .

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

Stop killing in the name of Allah and Islam !

David_Saidi

What repeating ? You don't even passed the first stage. . the Quran . . and you are trying hard to make Allah obey your rules , as your servant !

Dear brother......... someone need to mastering tafseer ,hadith and Classical Arab first before he capable to understand and translate the Quran including the translation you used right now.

I already told you, please answer this Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran??

This is related well with this case, but it seems you always avoid for answering.

Of course I'm confident, because it is a clear contradiction with the Quran and common sense . .

There is a shahih hadith

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.?

(Sunan Abu Dawud 4604)

This hadith is a properchy about you guys who rejecting hadith or just see it as man-made laws.

Plus you who said "Buckhari co".What's wrong with Bukhari co??

The Quran is not silent on the issue and why you want to make the Quran to be silent ? laugh

Quran is silent because it's a record of conversation between Allah and Muhammad (saw) not complete guide like in the Bible.
Quran also confirms if Allah already blessed Muhammad with Islamic knowledges (risalah).
And from that Muhammad risalah, we capable to understand Islam and Quran.

I believe you also reject something like grave punishment, circumcision, forbids for anal sex and etc

That's why I'm asking you . . . where is the ayat ?

I already answer it before...

muslims

Dear brother......... someone need to mastering tafseer ,hadith and Classical Arab first before he capable to understand and translate the Quran including the translation you used right now.

I already told you, please answer this Quran explain hadith or hadith explain Quran??

This is related well with this case, but it seems you always avoid for answering.

I'm getting boring with your confusion . . do you understand our conversation ?

We are the first stage, and we are speaking about the Principle of Jurisprudence , Usul al Fiqh . . .

We are the process of identifying the main principle from the Quran, and then we will go to the hadith . . ijma and qiyas, according to the accepted principles of methodology for arriving a sound rule of law. . .

Further . I am a hadith follower . . so why you bring up the issue ?

Don't you remember that I am a hadith follower from the start and remaining the same all my life , while you are . . .
a Sunni (CIA Sunni?)
and then becoming the Quranist
and then becoming the Mu'tazilite
and then becoming an Atheist
and then becoming an Agonist . .
then . . repentance and turn back to the Sunni ?

ie. your siggy

Former Quranist, atheist, agnostic, Mu'tazille.
Now just simply BACK TO NATURE

What else you want to become, after this ? rotfl

. . .

This hadith is a properchy about you guys who rejecting hadith or just see it as man-made laws.

Since when Muhammad etc is not a man ?

Yeap. . right, I forgot. . those people are your God. (6150) laugh

. . .

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

David_Saidi

I'm getting boring with your confusion . . do you understand our conversation ? rotfl

We are the first stage, and we are speaking about the Principle of Jurisprudence , Usul al Fiqh . . .

We are the process of identifying the main principle from the Quran, and then we will go to the hadith . .

Further . I am also a hadith followers . . so why you bring up the issue ?

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

muslims

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

The great circular reasong, for so many pages . . .

Try to prove it form facts and consistent rules with the Quran , rather than using fallacies . . rotfl

http//i58.tinypic.com/2i05iy9.gif

. . .

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Again . . and I don't have to repeat this silly issue . .

You must be joking, kill anyone who don't follow your rules ?

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

. . .

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

Yes, implementation . . ie. follow the rules and not opposing the rules , therefore where is the ayat ?

And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
6944-46

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences,
those who do not expect the meeting with Us say,
"Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it."
Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord.
I only follow what is revealed to me.
Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
1015

. . .

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

Al-Hikmah does not mean disobeying clear facts, rules and principles from the Quran .

Prove . . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606111.msg344801#msg344801

And DO NOT eat of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you
and if you obey them, you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists. (6121)

Therefore, where is the ayat from the Quran ?

. . .

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

We are speaking about dead people, not dead animal . . .

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Therefore where is the ayat ?

Where is the ayat ?

muslims

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

Nope. . are you trying to distort Allah's words ?

The following verse 16106 mentions nothing at all about killing the disbelievers !
and it also follows that the hadith is irrelevant to the ayat.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

From Abdullah bin Mas'ud ra, that the Messenger of Allah said

"It is not lawful blood of a Muslim who has testified that there is no god to worship except Allah and I am the Messenger of Allah, except in three of the following; someone who converted from Islam and left the jama'ah, people who are married but adultery and killing someone else. "(Shaheh Muslim)

From Ikrimah

"Some People of Zindeeq arrested and brought before Ali ra and Ali burnt them. The case was heard by Ibn Abbas, that he said If I do, will not burn them because there is a ban from the Holy Prophet said "Do not torment the punishment of Allah," and I still would have killed them according to the words of the Prophet "Who is change/ replacing his religion, kill him! "(Bukhari)

Again. . you have repeatedly failed to give the authority for such public sentences. . .
And you refer me to irrelevant ayat . .and interpret the ayat without proper methodology
Read again carefully . . Allah said "wrath from Allah" . .
It follows the punishment is from Allah

The ayat is irrelevant unless you are assuming you are Allah. . .

So. . where is the ayat to allow for such punishment ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

So. . where is the ayat ?

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

It's Y O U who don't understand the principle of Jurisprudence ;D
I'm studying Islam for long time and learn everithing about it.I'm also have many Islamic litaratures is my home.
I'm not simply enough to make mistake in simple issue like this.

Your biggest mistake is likely that you involve nonsense to interpret "the real thing".

Quran is the first stage?? Yes
But remember NOne human capable to understand Quran except the Phrophet himself

Can you please write me the passage in the recitation that says this?

Muhammad (saw) is a rasool.
So he is not just became the reciever of the wahy but also became example in implementation of Islam.

And he not the only rasool either.

Red Implementation of Islam? What implementation other than what you already see in the decree do you need?

In the Quran said if Muhammad blessed by knowledges and Al Hikmah by Allah
The knowledges is not written in the Quran mushaf and to knowing it, Quran ordered us to "Obey the Mesengger"

This is one of the most abused phrases in the recitation. People forget to think about what exactly is to be obeyed, i.e. what is the decree taught.

Example

2;173 He has only forbidden to you dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced , neither desiring nor transgressing , there is no sin upon him. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

dead animal?? is this means we forbidded to eat seafood, fish...? since the fish we hook up from the sea is also in dead state withouth being slaughtered in ritual??

It is always possible to apply logic and reason in the interpretation also. It is obviously cadaver found in nature such as those killed by other animals. The prohibition could be so that possible disease is not spread unto humans. And an animal that dies by itself could likely be carrying some illness. I think the decree is quite common sense without involving religious ideas.

Then with Muhammad knowledge, we will know what that dead animal refers to

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349598#msg349598

Or we could have common sense knowledge.

God bless you

David_Saidi

Salaam muslims

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.
Plus there are many evidences, if some heretic and murtadz people been punished both during Phrophet and Caliphate era

Plus for that christian church, it's HKBP (Huria Christian Batak Protestant), the Bataknese church.
This chuch always against the laws a.k.a they always build the church illegally withouth registered the SKBP certificate.

The muslims crowds is just shouting themself and the one who operate bulldozer of course the government agent.

David_Saidi

Salaam Man of Faith

Can you please write me the passage in the recitation that says this?

141 Alif, Lam, Ra. a Book which We have revealed to you, , that you might bring mankind out of darknesses into the light by permission of their Lord - to the path of the Exalted in Might, the Praiseworthy -

From this verse we know if Muhammad is the human who have more authority to explain Quran.

also in this verse

1644 with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Now how to learn Muhammad (saw) explanations is by reading Ahadith, the only records of his sunnah.

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

There are many hadith which properchied someone like @muslims who intepret the Quran by his own desire, including this one

Phrophet sallahu'alayhi wa sallam said You know, actually I was given the Qur'an and something similar to the Qur'an. Know this, there will be a rich man who sat on the plush seat and he said, "Hold you the Qur'an. Whatever is said lawful in the Qur'an , then it's halal, otherwise whatever it is said illicit in the Al-Qur'an, then it's haraam . Surely anything that is forbidden by the Prophet, God also see it as haraam " (Takhrijul Msykat no 163)

Miqdam ibn Ma?di reported The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, Verily, I have been given the Quran and something along with it, but the time is coming when a man will recline on his couch and say Keep to the Quran, for whatever you find in it lawful is lawful and whatever you find in it unlawful is unlawful. Certainly, it is not lawful for you to eat a domesticated donkey, beasts with fangs, or the lost item of a citizen unless he no longer wants it. If people are visited by guests then they must be entertained, but if they do not do so then the guests have a right to take what is due from them.? (Sunan Abu Dawud)

Look now in this thread for how brother @muslims intepret the Quran.
He is very confident to intepret it withouth mastering first the hadith, tafseer , classical Arab, .... just like the man in thaat two hadits.

So before we intepret the Quran as the God's word, someone need mastering the Phrophet Mohammed's sunnah first.
If not you will find many speculative , disputable and nonconceptual intepretations like you found in this forum.

This is one of the most abused phrases in the recitation. People forget to think about what exactly is to be obeyed, i.e. what is the decree taught.

Mohammad is not only Naby but also a Rasool.
Naby is simply a person who received the wahy and the Rasool is the naby who became living example for the ummah for how to practice God's teaching.

Example of Rasool Nooh, Abraham, Moses, Esa, and Muhammed (all of them, peace upon them)

It is always possible to apply logic and reason in the interpretation also. It is obviously cadaver found in nature such as those killed by other animals.

It's the sign of speculations

muslims

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.
Plus there are many evidences, if some heretic and murtadz people been punished both during Phrophet and Caliphate era

Huh? another circular reasoning ? That's how it works, always . . . rotfl

Brother, "authentic scholars" is not a "reason". . . it is appeal to authority, a fallacy

. . .

Therefore, where is the ayat ?

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

muslims

There are many hadith which properchied someone like @muslims who intepret the Quran by his own desire, including this one

Really ? Let see whether your scholars are "inauthentic", "unreliable" and "distorting the words of Allah" . . .

For example . .

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

This what you and your scholars interpret, ie . . Muhammad's words is the indirect wahy of God. . .

Now we read the verse. . .

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed

Taught to him by one intense in strength
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat, the wahy, ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
The heart did not lie what it saw
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15

See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .

It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . . rotfl

Therefore, who are interpreting the Quran by his own desire ?

I think this hadith is more reliable and corroborated with the Quran, the descendants of the Ahlul Kitab . . .

Daripada Ali bin Abi Thalib r.a. berkata telah bersabda Rasulullah saw.;
Sudah hampir sampai suatu masa di mana tidak tinggal lagi daripada Islam ini
kecuali hanya namanya, dan tidak tinggal daripada Al-Quran itu kecuali hanya tulisannya.
Masjid-masjid mereka tersergam indah, tetapi ia kosong daripada hidayah.
Ulama mereka adalah sejahat-jahat makhluk yang ada di bawah naungan langit.
Dari mereka berpunca fitnah (penipuan), dan kepada mereka fitnah (penipuan) ini akan kembali??
(HR al-Baihaqi)

and . . . you should be very ashamed of yourself, for making blank accusations and ridiculous statements in this forum , repeatedly and without justified reasons. . .

David_Saidi

Brother, "authentic scholars" is not a "reason". . . it is appeal to authority, a fallacy

Brother, refute sholars, but using their work (translation, mushaf) is more worst than fallacy ;D

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

The first video is our main issue right now, but not the second....

I'm sad, someone like you believe so easily with youtube videos O0
Yes some videos is authentic/fact and uploaded by formal groups, but you must notice some videos is also fakes, jokes, misslead titles, provocations etc

Example http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM0Ozn52pUc

People who don't understand Malay language will think if Indonesia and Malaysia was in war because East Kalimantan dispute and alleged separatist named "Republic of Sorona".

But actually this video is about Indonesian military drills and Republic Sorona is a fake rogue state and used for dramatized enemy. Malaysia didn't involved in that drill.

Plus the second video about alleged prosecution against Christian is a misslead news.
It's not muslims NGO who destroy the church but the government officials,
The church is HKBP, a Bataknese chruch and it's illegal because has no proper certificate.

If you want to know, there are many illegal buildings in Indonesia and bulldozer in action is common thing in here.

David_Saidi

This what you and your scholars interpret, ie . . Muhammad's words is the indirect wahy of God. . .

wow now you spoke like scholar itself and know everything ;D

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed

First notice Quran is not Muhammad's saying but Allah's
Second the phrase "he (Mohammed) speak",now this speaks was recorded in Ahadith

The tafseer of An Najm ayat 4

Dalam ayat ini, Allah SWT menguatkan ayat 3; yakni bahwa Muhammad saw hanyalah mengatakan apa yang diperintahkan oleh Allah SWT untuk disampaikan kepada manusia secara sempurna, tidak ditambah-tambah dan tidak pula dikurangi menurut apa yang diwahyukan kepadanya.
Abdullah bin 'Amr bin 'As menulis setiap apa yang ia dengar dari Rasulullah saw, karena ia mau menghafalkannya. Tapi orang-orang Quraisy melarangnya. Mereka mengatakan mengapa ia menulis setiap perkataan Muhammad, sedangkan Muhammad itu adalah manusia biasa yang berkata dalam keadaan marah. Maka berhentilah Abdullah bin Umar menulis. Kemudian ia mendatangi Rasulullah saw, dan memberitahukan perihalnya itu. Maka bersabdalah Rasulullah saw

Artinya
"Tulislah, demi Tuhan, tidak ada yang keluar dari perkataanku kecuali kebenaran".
(H.R. Ahmad dan Abu Daud)
Al Hafiz, Abu Bakar Al Bazzar mendapat riwayat dari Ahmad bin Mansyur, dari Abdullah bin Saleh, dari Al Lais, dari Ibnu Ajlan, dari Zaid bin Aslam, dari Abu Saleh dan dari Abu Hurairah bahwasanya Nabi Muhammad saw bersabda

Artinya
"Apa-apa yang aku katakan kepadamu bahwa ia dari Allah SWT, maka tidak ada keraguan padanya".
(HR. Abu Hurairah)
Dari Yunus, Lais, Muhammad bin Said bin Abu Said, dari Abu Hurairah mereka berkata bahwa Rasulullah saw bersabda

Artinya
"tidaklah aku berkata kecuali yang benar".
(HR. Abu Hurairah, Lihat Tafsir Al Maragi, hl. 45, juz 27, jilid IX)

Daripada Ali bin Abi Thalib r.a. berkata telah bersabda Rasulullah saw.;
Sudah hampir sampai suatu masa di mana tidak tinggal lagi daripada Islam ini
kecuali hanya namanya, dan tidak tinggal daripada Al-Quran itu kecuali hanya tulisannya.
Masjid-masjid mereka tersergam indah, tetapi ia kosong daripada hidayah.
Ulama mereka adalah sejahat-jahat makhluk yang ada di bawah naungan langit.
Dari mereka berpunca fitnah (penipuan), dan kepada mereka fitnah (penipuan) ini akan kembali??
(HR al-Baihaqi)

So you accuse me for not getting the hidayah?? pray in heretic masjid??

Sadar diri kau lah... you blame the great scholars like Syaf'i, Hanbali, Hanafi, Al-Ghazali etc and created your own tafseer with has no concept at all.

Hmm perhaps you're the only muslim who survived from punishment in the grave ???