What is Islam?

[David_Saidi]

Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim

In the past I lived in Indonesia, but it doesn't means I support the government. Government and citizen/civvilian are two different entities
Allah is the most I loyal to and all good muslims whatever their sects, race, countries as long as they're not corrupted Quran and hadith, they're my brother ans sisters.

Embrance Ukhuwah Islamiyah (Islamic brotherhood)

[muslims]

I have felt this before too.

You should because you also belong to those who like to mumbling with personal fallacy
and with no methodology for identification of truth
and in fact many are here. . .

and when people start questioning your contention and asking for prove . .
when people start "testing the truth of your contention", with premises from the Quran
you becoming into this. . .

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341096#msg341096
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg341094#msg341094
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605924.msg342173#msg342173

revealing your true Muslim character . . .

Truth because I said it is truth . . don't ever ever ever question what I said!

[muslims]

And you also can look into yourself. Your attitudes (insulting and enjoy mocking at others) seem far from the righteous attitudes that I know from the Qur'an.

Is this the answer to the issue or it is merely ad hominem?

[muslims]

Oh yes muslims who kill muslims like in the Aceh case, the muslim killers cannot be called as muslim

Another self contradicting statement ? or. . you mean to say "muslims who kill muslims (from the same sect) like in the Aceh case"

July 2010
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.

I believe they make the syahada, pray to the same Allah, fasting, pay zakat . . go to hajj and teach righteousness etc. (refer here). They are muslim as the majority called themselves a Muslim.

Distinct Ahmadi beliefs

Although the central values of Islam (prayer, charity, fasting, etc.) and the six articles of belief of Ahmadis are identical to those of mainstream Sunni Muslims and central to Ahmadi belief, distinct Ahmadiyya beliefs include the following

• That the prophecies concerning the second coming of Jesus were metaphorical in nature and not literal because Jesus is in their belief is dead, and that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad fulfilled in his person these prophecies and the second advent of Jesus, that he was the promised Mahdi and Messiah.

• The continuation of divine revelation. Although the Qur'an is the final message of God for mankind, He continues to communicate with his chosen individuals in the same way he is believed to have done in the past. All of God's attributes are eternal.

• That no verse of the Qur'an abrogates or cancels another verse. All Qur'anic verses have equal validity, in keeping with their emphasis on the "unsurpassable beauty and unquestionable validity of the Qur'n". The harmonization of apparently incompatible rulings is resolved through their juridical deflation in Ahmad fiqh, so that a ruling (considered to have applicability only to the specific situation for which it was revealed), is effective not because it was revealed last, but because it is most suited to the situation at hand.

• That Jesus, contrary to mainstream Islamic belief, was crucified and survived the four hours on the cross. He was later revived from a swoon in the tomb. Ahmadis believe that Jesus died in Kashmir of old age whilst seeking the Lost Tribes of Israel. Jesus' remains are believed to be entombed in Kashmir under the name Yuz Asaf. Ahmadis believe that Jesus foretold the coming of Muhammad after him, which Christians have misinterpreted.

• That the "Messiah" and the "Imam Mahdi" are the same person, and that it is through his teachings and influence and through his prayers and those of his followers that Islam will defeat the Anti-Christ or Dajjal in a period similar to the period of time it took for nascent Christianity to rise (see also Ahmadiyya relationship with Christianity) and that the Dajjal's power will slowly melt away like the melting of snow, heralding the final victory of Islam and the age of peace.

• That the history of religion is cyclic and is renewed every seven millennia. The present cycle from the time of the Biblical Adam is split into seven epochs or ages, parallel to the seven days of the week, with periods for light and darkness. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad appeared as the promised Messiah at the sixth epoch heralding the seventh and final age of mankind, as a day in the estimation of God is like a thousand years of man's reckoning. According to Ghulam Ahmad, just as the sixth day of the week is reserved for Jumu'ah (congregational prayers), likewise his age is destined for a global assembling of mankind in which the world is to unite under one universal religion Islam.

• The two Ahmadiyya groups have varying beliefs regarding the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believes that Muhammad brought prophethood to perfection and was the last law-bearing prophet and the apex of humankind's spiritual evolution. New prophets can come, but they must be completely subordinate to Muhammad and cannot exceed him in excellence nor alter his teaching or bring any new law or religion. They are also thought of as reflections of Muhammad rather than independently made into Prophets, like the Prophets of antiquity. The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement believes that Muhammad is the last of the prophets and no prophet, new or old, can come after him, also rejecting any notion of Jesus returning to earth as a Prophet

Wikipedia, Ahmadiyya

. . .

I'm closing the issue of Ahmaddiya since you have no reason to justified your contention, from page 50 to page 58. .
Other than distortion of the rules form the Quran, blank denials, fallacy and circular reasoning. .

and . . I think there are full of people who just like to mumble without facts and personal fallacy
and without using clear authority and reasoning . . .

Truth for them, because I said it is truth . .
and without proving that their contention has no inconsistency with any rules from the Quran

Premise. . .

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an?
If it had been from other than Allah <- ie. including the rules, hadith etc
they would have found within it much contradiction
482

Clear authority; all true premises
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606010.msg342131#msg342131

. . . The conclusion

Facts

at page 50. . .

Mohammed (saw) is also sectarian, if not he won't attacking pagan or jewish tribes to make them embrance Islam.
And also the Caliphate will not destroy Byzantine just because they're Christian.

Islam is identity and must be united in single ummah whatever the sects.

. . .

The issue Whether Muhammad is a sectarian and attack people to make them embrace Islam ?

at page 50. . .

Another contradiction . . .

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

See? Another wishful thinking . . . your contention are full of inconsistencies.

and did you mean this kind of unity and Islam ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj_GTRcKq_I
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ReNSqqVeU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF0S4qUQWzU
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

. . .

Contention (1) The hadith said those people should be killed.

David Saidi

According to hadith, the Ahmadiyah deserved to get it, since they did high treason and corrupted religion of Allah.
Also in hadith, Ahmadiyah will labelled as "raddad".Same as murtad, they will get death sentence if they're not repent.

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

My counterargument

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

and . .

It is not the true methodology for Islamic Jurisprudence (usul al fiqh) . . and there is not a single ayat to support the hadith. Contradictorily, there are bundle of authority that prohibit such action.

your contention are contradicting the Quran.

the jurist must resort to the Sunnah ONLY WHEN he fails to find any guidance in the Qur'an.

refer here for authority

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349449#msg349449
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349380#msg349380
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349596#msg349596
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349395#msg349395
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349438#msg349438

. . .

Contention (2) The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer of verse 16106, therefore can kill the disbelievers etc.

David Saidi

The reason is in Quran n authentic hadith based on proper ijma, tafseer

16106 Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment;

My counterargument

Verse 16106 is not the authority since "Allah said "wrath from Allah" . . and it follows the punishment is from Allah. It is a clear distortion of Allah's words.

Nope. . are you trying to distort Allah's words ?

The following verse 16106 mentions nothing at all about killing the disbelievers !
and it also follows that the hadith is irrelevant to the ayat.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349616#msg349616

. . .

Contention (3) The Quran is silent on those issue, therefore can kill the disbelievers.

David Saidi

the Sunnah may consist of rulings on which the Qur'an is silent, in which case the ruling in
question originates in the Sunnah itself. This variety of Sunnah, referred to as al-Sunnah al-muassisah,
or 'founding Sunnah', neither confirms nor opposes the Qur'an, and its contents cannot be traced back to
the Holy Book.

There are many hadith teaching which doesn't existed or explicitly written in the Quran, such like - Grave punishment

• Laws regarding picture
• Circumcision and etc

My counterargument

The Quran is not silent on those issues, it is a clear authority.

The Quran is not silent on this issue,
and your issue opposing clear facts and principles from the Quran. . . a very clear contradiction!
look at the following ayat (in fact, many more!)

There shall be no compulsion in the religion. 2.256

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason
1099-100

So remind, ; you are only a reminder.
You are not over them a controller.
However, he who turns away and disbelieves -
Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
Indeed, to Us is their return.
Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
8821-26

. . .

Contention (4) Verse 533-4 says Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human)

David Saidi

Perhaps not all people know if the Muhammad's words actually the indirect wahy (God to human) while the Quran is direct wahy (God to Muhammed)

533-4 Nor does he speak from inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,

My counterargument

Verse 533-4 does not say whatever Muhammad saying is a wahy, it is a clear distortion of Allah's words.

Nor does he speak from inclination
It is not but a revelation revealed
Taught to him by one intense in strength <- Gabriel
One of soundness. And he rose to true form
While he was in the higher horizon
Then he approached and descended
And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer
And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed <- relates to the above ayat, the wahy,
The heart did not lie what it saw ie. "It is not but a revelation revealed"
So will you dispute with him over what he saw?
And he certainly saw him in another descent
At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary
Near it is the Garden of Refuge
533-15

See? The ayat is telling about Muhammad saw "Gabriel". .
The statement "Nor does he speak from inclination It is not but a revelation revealed" referred to the wahy given by Gabriel to Muhammad. .

It is about Muhammad and Gabriel, not about whatever Muhammad's saying is a wahy. . .

refer here for authority

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349643#msg349643

. . . no answer, from page 50 to page 58

You are repeating again, I said "FIRST STAGE" is the Quran . . .

Just a simple word from the Quran, "kill alll disbelievers". . can you refer that kind of ayat ?

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHPvxCKofs4

Ahmadiya deserved it, because their mockery toward God's teaching.
The purpose of punishment is to prevent Ahmadiya, before they go further for corrupting GOD's teaching.
This is the hadith said.

Murtad and raddad according to hadith, the punishment is death sentence.

What they did ?
Christian and all religions are also mocking God's teaching . .
Therefore, did they killed people ?

and it will just remain the same. . and I believe the killing of the Ahmadiyya, is not Islam.

But whoever kills a believer intentionally
his recompense is Hell
wherein he will abide eternally
and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment
493

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that
whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption in the land
it is as if he had slain mankind entirely
And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely
And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs
Then indeed many of them, after that, throughout the land, were transgressors
532

[Noon_waalqalami]

Salaam Noon Waalqalami

to make clear

According to you there is no word "you" in there, but please pay notice with ta' in there )
I believe the Quran cannot be translated to literally or per-words

Salaam David Saidi,

OK again you missed the point and verse ? what was to be made clear to humankind and not conceal it?

3187 and when took the god agreement the ones given they of the book/writ that thou make clear it to the humankind and not thou conceal it so threw they it behind backs theirs and purchased with it price of little of so wretched what purchasing

1644 with the evidence and the scriptures and have descended we of to you the reminder that thou make clear to the humankind what descended to them and that may who reflecting

[muslims]

DONT BE CHILDISH PAL!!!!!

I told you this issue, THIS IS JUST A CONSPIRATIONS CREATED BY SOME CHINESE BASTARDS WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND

"...WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT PEACE AND PLANNED TO TAKE OUT THIS LAND JUST LIKE THEY DID IN SINGAPORE AND THAILAND..."

The less than 1% minority want to take over the Indonesia country, just what they did in Singapore and Thailand.

The contention is very sound and logic.

. . .

Therefore . . .

prove that life is not about Sunnatullah
prove that justice is not about balance

refer here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg349248#msg349248

. .

The point of discussion from the Papuan issue, Timor Leste, Acheh, Christian and Chinese minorities etc is. . .
Religious tolerance and freedom under threat in Indonesia. .
Their way of living has nothing to do with Islam, but it is fanaticism, religionism, racism, nationalism and sectarianism etc.

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvYp8SRpPNI

No balance and no justice . . . and there is no Ying and Yang.

goodness without wisdom always accomplishes evil . . .

http//i61.tinypic.com/63r9es.gif

Therefore . . there is no Islamic way of living in Indonesia.

It is merely Religionism and Sectarianism.

I'm bigot?? Yes, I will became bigot to someone who tried to annilihate my faith

my faith = sectarianism
(killed and burned alive all minorities. . . they are threatening our security with their ancient weapons, and so on. . . )

whereas, and contradictorily. . .

refer here Reply #443
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605723.msg348769#msg348769

For you is your deen <- based on "religion" - Sectarianism - Bigot - concept of God alone, so as Iblees, Allah Alone
and for me is my deen <- based on "ad-deen" - Just vs. Unjust - an upright man - living justly balanced - Sunnatullah
(109)

(note can you say the same to other religion? nope.. because there is no difference. . . both are religions)

http//s11.postimg.org/hq4ht9ic3/humanunity.png

Therefore and in my opinion , what you fight for is not Islam.

in the fact muslims actually must united into single ummah, helping each other and not bounded by nationality or races.

What makes you think I will unite with the oppressor and who support the killing of 500,000 innocent people and treat them like animals ?

and do not be of those who associate others with Allah
of those who have divided their religion and become sects
every faction rejoicing in what it has
3031-32

You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day
having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger
even if they were
their fathers
or their sons
or their brothers
or their kindred
Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him
And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally
Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah .
Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful.
58.22

While. . .

July 2010
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=es-p5OHTSxk

Ahmadiya deserved it

Religion is an insult to human dignity
With or without religion
you would have good people doing good things and
evil people doing evil things
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion
Steven Weinberg

end.

[muslims]

I'm not cited the verse based on my own but from some authentic scholars.

They are not authentic scholars, and obviously. . they are not the ulama.

I prefer to the following definition of an ulama (35.27-2. . .

The Quran has referred to those people as ulema, and in modern terminology they are called scientists.

or. . an expert in any field of studies or discipline relating to life and Allah's creations !

Physics, botany, zoology, and the humanities are all touched upon. The knowledgeable persons are awestruck because their insight has convinced them of His power and Wisdom in controlling the universe perfectly.

Reason . . .

The Ulema?Who Are They?

The issue

The capacity to acquire knowledge makes human beings the most superior of creations. But what is knowledge? Who is entitled to be called a knowledgeable person (ulema)? What is the Quranic point of view on this?

FIRST PART, the definition of knowledge

We must identify the "type and category of knowledge", before we can identify who is the ulama. . .accordingly, the believers and muslim.

The following is the verse to define the "type and category of knowledge" that must be acquired for someone to be called as the ulama . .

1736
And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge.
Indeed, the hearing,
the sight
and the heart
about all those will be questioned

7179
And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind.
They have hearts with which they do not understand,
they have eyes with which they do not see,
and they have ears with which they do not hear.
Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray.
It is they who are the heedless.

ie. knowledge is related to . . . heart + eyes + ears. . .

This verse also indicates that knowledge is only that which can be explained by the senses and the mind. Intangible, abstract matters have nothing to do with the senses. Observation of natural phenomena and the study of the universe, experimentation to discover the laws of creation, maintenance, and workings of the components of the universe are the applications of sense-perception. In modern terminology this is called scientific knowledge. As the Quran states, the pursuit of such knowledge is the duty of all believers (momineen).

It is "scientific knowledge" . . . and therefore,

it is the duty of the Muslim ummah to understand the laws of nature and utilize them for the benefit of mankind.

Indeed, within the heavens and earth are signs for the believers.
And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures
are signs for people who are certain .
And the alternation of night and day
and what Allah sends down from the sky of provision
and gives life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness
and directing of the winds
are signs for a people who reason.
These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth.
Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?
453-6

This is because . . .

Allah has stated in unambiguous terms that belief in Him comes through the study of nature and its laws. If studying natural law does not lead one to believe in Allah, then nothing else can. This astounding declaration illustrates the importance of studying natural phenomena. Real belief based on reason can only be achieved through this method.

Yes, "real belief based on reason can only be achieved through this method". . acquiring true knowledge.

It is not just that, but . . . those who follow that path will find out how Allah will reveal Himself.

The Quran describes the setup of the universe and follows by saying that meeting with Allah is possible. It indicates that if you want Allah to reveal himself to you then you have to study the universe, scrutinize every object in it, and through observation and experiment, discover the laws governing this system. Thus all the mysteries of Nature will be unlocked one by one and you will gain insight into how Allah is sustaining this universe. This is what meeting and ?seeing? Allah means. As far as the entity of Allah is concerned, He is beyond the comprehension of human minds, let alone sense-perception. Seeing or meeting Him does not refer to the physical sense, it means gaining knowledge of how the universe functions and is regulated by Him. It is clear that according to the Quran, only those who observe natural phenomena can know how Allah runs the universe.

Therefore it is clear that according to the Quran, only those who observe natural phenomena can know how Allah runs the universe.

It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you see;
then He established Himself above the Throne
and made subject the sun and the moon,
each running for a specified term. He arranges matter;
He details the signs that you may, of the meeting with your Lord, be certain.
132

Contradictorily. . .

People who have been unaware of these signs in the universe have their doubts about seeing proof of Allah. In fact they would not have to go very far to do so; the study of any object in the universe can provide evidence for the workings of Allah?s laws. The rabubiyat order is not tied to any one thing but encompasses the whole of the universe ?Indeed, are they in doubt concerning the meeting with Allah? It is He who controls all things.? (41/54)

. . .

SECOND PART Once we identified the knowledge (ie."scientific knowledge&quot and barriers . . one must then becoming a muttaqeen (absolute obedience to Allah) in order to observe natural phenomena.

Therefore, this requires "spirituality" and "consciousness"; ie. free ourselves from shirk.

It is clear that according to the Quran, only those who observe natural phenomena can know how Allah runs the universe. It is a long, arduous process which sometimes requires scaling the highest peaks of the Himalayas, diving to the bottomless depths of the Atlantic, bearing the scorching heat of the Saharan dessert, and doing research in the bone chilling cold of the North Pole. This kind of research is only carried out by those who are not satisfied with what they know at present; those who look beyond the horizon and strive for more knowledge. The Quran says, ?Verily, in the alteration of the night and day, and in all that Allah has created, in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who are devoted believers (muttaqeen).? (10/6)

Contradictictorily, ie those who are not the muttaqeen

Indeed, those who do not expect the meeting with Us
and are satisfied with the life of this world
and feel secure therein
and those who are heedless of Our signs
107

Therefore . . .

These verses offer a cause for the cyclical rise and fall of nations. Those who are satisfied with the status quo and do not strive for improvement and a better future are devoid of thought and action; they fall from grace and are left far behind in the struggle of life. In contrast, those nations that work hard to develop new inventions and make new discoveries surge far ahead. Because of their initiative and well directioned hard work, nature rewards them by revealing its hidden treasures.

and that's why. . .

On the other hand, there are European nations with very little land but with so much production capabilities that they not only provide for local needs but they even manage to export surplus food. This is due to the fact that they are perpetually laboring in accordance with the laws of nature in order to take advantage of its hidden treasures. It is a divine law that the livelihoods of those who eschew the laws of Allah continuously diminish (20/124). This law is universal and there are no exceptions. Muslims have been shunning this law for centuries; as if this were not enough, we also have not put our senses to proper use and have been thus divested of these faculties. We have fallen into the category of those people whose ?hearts, ears, and eyes have become useless, and they do not take heed.? (16/10

Consequently . . .

And whoever turns away from My remembrance - indeed,
he will have a depressed life
and We will gather him on the Day of Resurrection blind."
20124

. . .

THIRD PART Therefore, what is the conditions for becoming an ulama , accordingly a True Believer and a Muslim ?

Firstly. . .

i) Knowledge is only that which can be verified by the human senses and mind

Secondly. . .

ii) Use of the senses means to observe natural phenomena, study the laws of nature, carry out consistent research, and experience the revelation of Allah?s laws that run the universe and provide systematic sustenance, growth, and development.

Such practice is the hallmark of believers in general and the duty of muttaqeen in particular. This is zikr-o-fikr i-khudawandi, or following the laws of Allah. This behavior brings to light the hidden secrets of the universe and on the basis of knowledge we can say to our Rabb, ?You did not create anything in vain.?

Thirdly. . .

The critical factor is whether one uses the information according to the laws of Allah. So, there are two conditions in becoming a Mumin to gain knowledge from nature, and to use it according to the injunctions of Allah. The Quran demands that ?its system be accepted in its totality.? (2/20 A nation that does not meet both of these criteria cannot be Mumin, and since Muslims fail regarding the first condition, we cannot claim to be Mumin.

In order to use the forces of nature in accordance with Allah?s laws it is absolutely necessary to study the Quran because these laws are contained within it. Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge conduct affairs of the state according to Allah?s injunctions because they know ?if any fail to judge by the light what Allah has revealed, they are no better than the unbelievers.? (5/44)

and that's why . . .

In contrast, Western nations do not fulfill the second criterion; thus, on a practical level, Muslims and western non-Muslims are in the same position.

Additionally. . . spirituality, consciousness. . ie. iqra. (kenal diri)

This is not all that must be done. Allah has stated that there is testimony to the truth of Quranic claims in the form of signs provided by Him in the universe.

We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves
until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth <- spirituality and iqra, kenal diri.
But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
4153

. . .

FIFTH PART Therefore, who is the ulama . . . accordingly who is the True Believers and Muslims ?

By knowing this it is easy to figure out who, according to the Quran, is a knowledgeable person and what the term actually means. The Quran has even explained this fact so there is no confusion

Do you not see
that Allah sends down rain from the sky <- all the subjects to describe ulama are related to science
and We produce thereby fruits of varying colors?
And in the mountains are tracts,
white and red of varying shades and extremely black.
And among people
and moving creatures
and grazing livestock
are various colors similarly.
Only those fear Allah , from among His servants
who have knowledge (ulama).
Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Forgiving.
35.27-28

as we can se, all the subject to describe an ulama is related to science. . .

These two verses deal with different parts of the universe, different branches of nature, and different fields of science. Physics, botany, zoology, and the humanities are all touched upon. The knowledgeable persons are awestruck because their insight has convinced them of His power and Wisdom in controlling the universe perfectly.

Therefore, the Quran defined the ulama as follow

The Quran has referred to those people as ulema, and in modern terminology they are called scientists.

This is because . .

These are the people who study nature and after observation and consistent experimentation, conquer the forces of nature. Allah has put the forces of nature under our control, but only those who know the laws can manipulate these forces. The only way to become one of the ulema is to acquire this knowledge.

and accordingly . . . the Mumineen and Muttaqeen is. . .

it is evident that, according to the Quran, the Mumineen, Muttaqeen, those who abide by and keep Allah?s laws in sight, and those who have faith and long to ?meet? with Allah, are people who study the universe and perform practical research on the objects therein as well as the forces of nature. The experience thus gained is called knowledge, and the Quran calls those who have this knowledge ulema.

. . .

LAST PART Comparision with current definition of ulama.

First. . .

They do not know the fundamentals of natural sciences, and their knowledge is limited to theoretical discussions and verbal emendations.

Second. . .

These discussions are mostly related to issues that have no bearing on the universe or the practical life of people.

Third. . .

The curriculum of religious schools is spread over ten years during which students study logic, philosophy, rhetoric, grammar, literature, etc, most of which is outdated.

Fourth. . .

They also learn about astronomy, geometry, and arithmetic, which are also outdated.

Fifth . . .

It is curious to note that the study of the Quran is not included in the curriculum. A certain exegesis (Jilalain) is taught that consists of only synonyms of the Quranic words. In the last year of study an exegesis of the second chapter of the Quran is taught (Bazadi). This is the education upon completion of which they receive certification for becoming an aalim (knowledgeable person).

Sixth. . .

law making has fallen victim to the same ignorant judgments

example. . .

The Mufti then gave his verdict in favor of the use of loudspeakers. However, another aalim, Mufti Mohammad Shafee, a senior teacher in the religious academy of Deoband, published a verdict in a magazine in which the use of the devices for prayer was declared unlawful. He wrote that he did not know the nature of the device and how it worked. He sought information from the science teacher, Mr. Brij Nandan Lal of Alexander High School of Bhopal, and the teacher said, ?Because of the use of electrical power I am hesitant to believe that the sound is original, and find it hard to deny it either because to prove otherwise is equally difficult.? After this ?exhaustive research? and on the basis on conjecture from a non-Muslim, a Muslim aalim decided that it was the decree of Allah and His prophet to forbid the use of loudspeakers. This illustrates nicely how ignorant the ulema are in matters natural and modern science; it is ironic that they still retain the ability to issue verdicts (fatwas) on them

I must say, that it is quite embarrassing having those people as the Ulama of Islam.

The truth, they are in fact not the ulama, but the "ignorant" (+ Ahlul Kitab) and know nothing about science and the law of nature etc . . .

Consequently . . .

And whoever turns away from My remembrance - indeed,
he will have a depressed life ... <- or depressed ummah, depressed nation, depressed country etc. . .
and We will gather him on the Day of Resurrection blind."
20124

[JavaLatte]

Peace,

I have felt this before too.

God bless you

Yeah, need extra patience to deal with him. ;D

Thank you, brother.

May God bless you too.

Peace.

[JavaLatte]

Is this the answer to the issue or it is merely ad hominem?

That is my reminder to you.

You often preach by using plenty-long posts,

but I wonder Where are your PRACTICES? Your actual applications?

How can you uphold peace if you love provoking others and making others get upset.

If you do support peace, why not trying your best to reconcile between conflicting parties, to extinguish the fire of dispute, but unfortunately you're more like someone who lit the fire.

If you truly practice lessons in the Qur'an, perhaps you'll become humble person.

Peace.

[muslims]

That is my reminder to you.

You often preach by using plenty-long posts,

but I wonder Where are your PRACTICES? Your actual applications?

How can you uphold peace if you love provoking others and making others get upset.

If you do support peace, why not trying your best to reconcile between conflicting parties, to extinguish the fire of dispute, but unfortunately you're more like someone who lit the fire.

If you truly practice lessons in the Qur'an, perhaps you'll become humble person.

So tell me. . . what is the lesson from the Quran ? . . and what is peace ?

[JavaLatte]

So tell me. . . what is the lesson from the Quran ? . . and what is peace ?

Perhaps you can read those on your own posts in free-minds. )

[muslims]

Perhaps you can read those on your own posts in free-minds.

Huh? You just gave me a reminder, and yet. . you cannot explain in simple word as to what is the lesson from the Quran ?

[JavaLatte]

Huh? You just gave me a reminder,

peace

and yet. . you cannot explain in a simple word as to what is the lesson from the Quran ?

Are you willing to practice the lessons in the Qur'an with sincere?

Peace.

[muslims]

peace

Are you willing to practice the lessons in the Qur'an with sincere?

Peace.

I am practicing what I said in this forum . . maybe it is you who are not practicing the Quran and being a sectarian.

So. . what is the lesson from the Quran ? and. . what is peace ?

[JavaLatte]

I am practising what I said in this forum . .

Oh.. I see.. so your attitudes on this forum are your practices from your own saying.

Peace.

[muslims]

Oh.. I see.. so your attitudes on this forum are your practices from your own saying.

That's why I'm asking you . . since it is so obvious that you know more about the Quran . . and maybe I am wrong in my opinion.

Therefore, what is the lesson from the Quran? . . . and what is peace, according to the Quran ?

[JavaLatte]

That's why I'm asking you . . since it is so obvious that you know more about the Quran . . and maybe I am wrong in my opinion.

Therefore, what is the lesson from the Quran? . . . and what is peace, according to the Quran ?

If you really want to know, you can beg to Allah to teach you.

Allah is my Lord and your Lord.

I think only Allah Who can teach you. I can't.

To make you understand is beyond my ability.

Peace.

[muslims]

If you really want to know, you can beg to Allah to teach you.

Allah is my Lord and your Lord.

I think only Allah who can teach you. I can't.

To make you understand is beyond my ability. )

You are reminding people and claiming that people are wrong
but when people ask for an explanation as to why they are wrong

you can't explain and be responsible for your own statement ?

Do you know what that makes you?

[JavaLatte]

You are reminding people and claiming that people are wrong
but when people ask for an explanation as to why they are wrong

you can't explain and be responsible for your own statement ?

What that makes you ?

Yes, for your case I can't, because I don't trust you.

Peace.

[muslims]

Yes, for your case I can't, because I don't trust you.

See? another irresponsible statement . . which of course, you cannot take the responsibility or be accountable for any of them. Hypocrite. . .