The Quran was sent down in the 4th Century?
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Enlighten my ignorance, Mr virtueorvice@ and miss huruf@
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What is the name of Jesus' father (according to the Quran)?
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Why is it that GOD attributes Jesus to his mother (ie. Son of Mary) but NEVER gives mention of a father (as you wish to imply)?
Bring your proof (from the self-contained Scripture) if ye are indeed truthful.
& PLEASE! No more wishful thinking.
SLM
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Why should a father be mentionned if he plays no role? Where is Muhammads father mentionned? Where is Syuleyman's father mentionned? Where is Musa's father mentionned? Musa's mother is mentionned, even his sister but not his father. Where somebody plays no role why should he or she be mentionned?
Because somebody is not mentionned you cannot conclude that he or she does not exist. The only thing that you can conclude is that the person is not mentionned, whether such person existed or not.
Salaam
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Burden of proof is on the one asserting the claim!
You claim that Jesus had a father. Therefore, bring your proof.
Why should a father be mentionned if he plays no role?
Because you claim he had a role in the conception of Jesus!
Where is Syuleyman's father mentionned?
David!
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The question about Maryam is indeed that there is nothing in the Qur'an that says such a thing as that she became a mother while being a virgin. And I agree that the kun ga yakun does not hint at any virginity at all. All people are born because God says kun. Anything that exists it is because God says kun. The greatest argument put forth by the virginists is that she says how is she going to have child when she knows no male. If the text had said that she gave birth next day e might have thought about a prodigy, but the text does not say so nor points to anything out of the ordinary. It does not give any delays as to the interval between one thing and another just as it does in so many Qur'an narrations.
Salam huruf
Yes it does,
AQ.2191 - "And (remember) her, who virtue her CHASTITY We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
AQ.6612 - "And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who virtue her CHASTITY ; and We breathed into (thru her respitory system) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).
The word "f r j" has been erroneouly translated as being women private parts. The correct rendering of the word as per the Quran is chastity and used for both male and female.
AQ.2430 - Tell the believing men to reduce of their vision and guard their CHASTITY ...
AQ.2431 - And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their CHASTITY ...
The Quran never uses words that is not fit to be called WORD OF ALLAH. In fact, when come to such words, if we look further
AQ.0720 - But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their PRIVATE PARTS . He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."
AQ.0722 - So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their PRIVATE PARTS became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, "Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?"
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And who is David's father, where is he named?
That anybody should be named because he or she participates in anybody else's conception is who you says that not me and not the Qur'an. And I am not claiming any father in the conception of Jesus, what I am saying is far conclusive and it is that nowhere does the Qur'an say that Maryam was a virgin while becoming a mother, and therefore, if on that side nothing out of the ordinery is mentionned, then we may conclude that there is nothing that the Qur'an considers worth mentionned for the purpose of its teachings.
In your post 49 you keep confusing chastity with virginity. So, for instance, since you were born of a father neither your mother nor your father were chaste when you were born, since they were not virgins.
You keep diverting the question and the question is that the Qur'an does not state, God or the angel does not state at any moment that Maryam gave birth being a virgin. It is the virgin part that fails completely to be substantiated out of the Qur'an. If it is not mentionned whatever one might conjecture in that count is exactly that, pure conjecture, and unfounded at that, since we have no basis for it.
That no father is mentionned is because the father does not play any role in the teaching which the Qur'an wants to put forward. Just as it has no role in the teaching about Musa infancy, where no father is mentionned. In fact Musa's father which, being brother of Haroon we might think is 3imraan, is mentionned but as father of Maryam, becuase in this case the mention is to the point.
It is formidable how much "muslims" want to correct or perfect or complete or help the Qur'an along bringing in the material from other other sources. Which I have nothing against in order to study and explore and reflect, but it is going too far to impose it on the Qur'an. The Qur'an stands on itself, not on other human creations.
Salaam
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OK! Maryam wasn't unchaste; after some time she found a husband and married him and bore a child. Only they were living away from their original community.
Speculation
Peace virtueorvice,
You are making your claim fit your hypothesis which is understandable, but not necessarily true.
There is no statement indicating that Mary was previously married before the birth of Jesus, hence
this wonderful daughter raised under the guardianship of Zachariah should not be slandered and
speculated regarding her chastity when there is no proof otherwise. If she was married when she
had the child, why the shame? Where's hubby? Why hide? Why the vow of silence on such a happy
occasion, especially after having a son in those days?When she bore him, she isolated herself to a faraway place.
The birth process came to her by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, I wish I were dead before
this happened, and completely forgotten."called her from beneath her, saying, "Do not grieve. Your Lord has provided you with a stream.
"If you shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will drop ripe dates for you.
"Eat and drink, and be happy. When you see anyone, say, 'I have made a vow of silence; I am
not talking today to anyone.'"She came to her family, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have committed something
that is totally unexpected."O descendant of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother unchaste."
She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?"
Another Miracle
said, "I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.
"He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Contact Prayers and the
obligatory charity for as long as I live.No mention of a father!
"I am to honor my mother; He did not make me a disobedient rebel.
Believers are told to honor their mother and father, did Jesus disobey this instruction?
God bless
peace
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It is obvious that Maryam was regarded as a loose woman by her community, but that in its turn is no proof or hint at all that she was a virgin mother. No hint at all. None. There are many ways a woman may not be unchaste and still be caught in a situation where she is regarded as such. Speciall if the existence of an unexplained child is there. Unexplained is not the same thing as of virgin birth or without the intervention of a flesh father. Should I mention the millions of women who have been raped and become mothers after? The thing is that God did nto want to tell us anything about it. Did not want to tell us anything about it. It was not for us to know, we do not get anything out of knowing. What we are being told is nothing to do with that. In fact what we are being told is that we shou7ld look at what is there and not at what is not there and we cannot know.
However it might have been Maryam was a single mother. ABOUT THAT there is no doubt, but still, not there being any doubt about it, we TODAY, and for centuries and centuries spite on single mother. -we are real pigs, fighting over the virginity of a woman who was a single mother as if that was what mattered and we spit in single mothers all they way. And oh, God, poor thing, she was overwhelmed at the foot of the palm tree... BUT SHE WAS A VIRGIN. That is all that matters. And today there are those that if they found a woman in such circumstance be it Maryam, they would have stoned her.
But the thing is that the most important thing is the father, even if he did exist onlyfor a few minutes. A few minutes that entitles any man to figure in the genealogy of any meaningful person, provided they want it after the fact. Does not matter that they abandon the pregnant woman, no magtter that thye could not care less, it is them, the "fathers" that matter. Where does the Qur'an say such a thing. Who cares who was 3isa's father. He does not appear, for good reasons or for bad reasons he does not appear. Where is Musas father, where is Dawoods father?
May be she, Maryam, did meet some young boy who died right after and there were no witnesses of their marriage, may be a thousand things. Since the angel had announced her that she would conceive, she would have accepted any fate God meant for her.
God does not want us to llok at 3isa's father, there enough fathers in other narrations of the Qur'an, God did want us to look at Maryam, just Maryam, and 3isa. So, that means that we have to make a virgin mother out of her' Why?
Salaam
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Salam,
We should regard that Chaste and Virgin are two different terms. Someone may be a virgin but not a chaste person and also when someone is not virgin that doesn't mean he or she is an unchaste person!
Maryam was living in an ignorant society, she was an orphan and most probably a prophetess. She was devoted to the temple but the temple was already corrupted by the mischief of the Children of Israel. So when Maryam decided to leave the temple, she knew that she wouldn't be welcomed by her community hence she went to another location, married and bore Isa!
Maryam keeps her marriage secret and when Isa reaches maturity he goes with her mother to their community and declares his mission!
There's nothing twisted and complicated about it!
342 (Mary kept a spotless character as she grew up.) Angels told her, God has chosen you, given you a spotless character and given you distinction among the women of your times.
343 She was told by angels to gather courage, quit monasticism, submit to the command of her Lord and join her family for leading a normal life bowing to the design that God has ordained for people.
344 (O Messenger) We are revealing to you these events of the unseen history (so that you may dispel conjecture). You were not present with them when they threw their pens (casting lots) which of them should take charge of Mary (after Zakariya). And you were not present with them when they quarreled about it.
345 Angels said, O Mary! God gives you the good news through a word from Him. His name would be Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, held in honor in this world and among the ones close (to Me) in the Hereafter.
346 He will speak to people while very young and in ripe old age with his faculties well intact.
347 Mary exclaimed! O My Lord, How shall I have a son when no man has (intimately) touched me? He said, Just as God creates everyone according to His laws (340). When God decrees a matter, it starts happening.
348 And God will teach him the scripture and the wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel.
349 And He will be a Messenger to the Children of Israel. He will say to them, I come to you with revelation from your Lord. If you follow me, I will raise you from dust to the heights of glory by the command of God (7176). The blind among you will begin to see the truth. Those of you who are spotted with sin, I will heal them, and I shall grant real life to those who are just dragging on without purpose; all by God's leave, according to His laws. I am here to establish justice and equity. I shall see to it how much you hoard in your houses and how much you spend on the community. My teachings are sufficient signs for you to believe.
350 I confirm the truth in the Torah before me, and make permissible to you some of what was forbidden. I have come with your Lord's revelation. Be mindful of His commands and obey me.
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World English Dictionary
Chaste (test)
? adj
- not having experienced sexual intercourse; virginal
- abstaining from sexual intercourse, esp that which is unlawful or immoral
- (of conduct, speech, etc) pure; decent; modest
- (of style or taste) free from embellishment; simple; restrained
'chastely
? adv
'chasteness
- refraining from sexual intercourse that is regarded as contrary to morality or religion; virtuous.
- virgin.
- not engaging in sexual relations; celibate.
- free from obscenity; decent chaste conversation.
- undefiled or stainless chaste, white snow.
? n
virgin (vdn)? n
- a person, esp a woman, who has never had sexual intercourse
- an unmarried woman who has taken a religious vow of chastity in order to dedicate herself totally to God
- any female animal that has never mated
- a female insect that produces offspring by parthenogenesis
- a person who is new to or inexperienced in a specified field a political virgin
? adj
6. of, relating to, resembling, suitable for, or characteristic of a virgin or virgins; chaste
7. pure and natural, uncorrupted, unsullied, or untouched virgin purity
8. not yet cultivated, explored, exploited, etc, by man virgin territories
9. being the first or happening for the first time
10. (of vegetable oils) obtained directly by the first pressing of fruits, leaves, or seeds of plants without applying heat
11. (of a metal) made from an ore rather than from scrap
12. occurring naturally in a pure and uncombined form virgin silver
13. physics (of a neutron) not having experienced a collision -
No matter that people are not confused about the meaning of virgin and the meaning of chaste, but the thing is that a definition in English does not get anybody anywhere. If we are getting into that kind of confusion at least let it be with the original, whether such confusion would be at all posible in the original.
There is in arabic a proper way to say virgin and a proper way to say chaste, no need to lead people into confusion.
Salaam
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Peace.
Where is the confusion?
The angel tells Mary she is going to have a child!
She responds by saying How can I? No man has touched me? I am not chaste!
The angel replies God has decreed that the matters has been decided, you will have a child.
Now ,if she understood it to be in the future, i.e with a man, Why would she utter such statement? If the angel said to her ,in the near future you will meet someone and become pregnant with a child, would the " no man has touched me" be said by her?
Of course she understood it to be " as she is now" ,without a partner!!!!!
Does God not choose the words carefully? Would the Qoran use words that are not necessary?
There is no confusion. All the signs that she conceived without being touched by a man are there?
GOD bless .
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
We have to think carefully so we not risk conjectural ideas. I almost considered the ideas for a minute. Thanks for clarifying verses.
God bless you
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Well no confusion at all, virgin is virgin chaste is chaste, as to that it is at that very moment that she is going to have a child, it is not at all obvious or more obvious than the future . Obviously at tha tmoment she is not pregnant. She will become pregnant afterwards. Nothing in the speeach by the angels indicates that it is now that she is becoming pregnant. The child is for the future. If you understand it otherwise, it is your understanding, but obvious it is not, by any length. And there being the christian narration, one can perfectly see from where the confusion.
Salaam
What Maryam says that no man has touched her not that no man will touch her -
The word used, sparsely, in the Qur'an to say virgin is bikr. There is another way in Arabic that I do not know that it has been used int he Qur'an to mean that, but it is the word that is used by christians to name Virgin Mary which is 3adhra'.
In fact the Qur'an does not use any of those words for Maryam, or for anybody else, nor there is a single word that Maryam uses to say that she is chaste. It uses a negative, "I am not baghiya" (translated as "unchaste". The virgin part up to that point she makes it clear saying that "no basharhas touched me".
So indeed, with whatever words, the events are made clear.
Up to that point she was virgin and she was chaste. We have no reason to suspect that she was unchaste afterwards, since precisely God purified her to become a prophet and mother of a prophet, but we have no reason either to think that she continued being a virgin. Being a virgin is not a value, like being chaste is a value. Why should it matter that she was or she was not a virgin? Who cares about that. She is chaste, like Yusuf was chaste. What is the need to find out something that does nto concern us. Are we told about any prophet in the Qur'an whether he was a virgin or not at any given point?
When she first got the announcement in 3.42 the angels talk to her.
Then in 19.16 we are told that she withdrew from her family to a place in the East keeping herself hidden from them. Then God sent His spirit, shich appeared to her in all respects as a human being.
We can read the dialogue quietly in the Qur'an, it is there from 19.16 onwards.
So, in 3.42 the angels (plural) talk to her and make her an announcement.
Then in 19.16 she withdraws from her family to a place in the east where they cannot know what she does and God sends to her His spirit which in all respects appears to her as a human being. And he reminds her of the announcement...
And then she becomes pregnant...
Of course she is chaste. ?Virgin? ?Why should she need the presence of a ruh in all respects appearing to her as a human being for the announcement to be made true?
We may believe whatever we want, but one thing stands out glaringly The Qur'an, the God that speaks in it, does not give a damn about virginity. He does about chastity. Even the one time He mentions "virgins" in 66.5 He does in sense as if He boasted on behalf of the Prophet on what he could have by way of wives who would give him standing but no problems and mentions non virgins and virgins.
So what is this interest on having Maryam be a virgin? Making a miracle of it? Then why not make it plain and explicit in the Qur'an? Look she conceived as she still was a virgin, in the past, completed action. The fact is the Qur'an doesn't give a damn about miracles either, because we are continually reminded that everything is and lasts because God does it, that everything we know and look at is in itself a miracle. What more miracles do we want? If we need more miracles we should go to circus or a magicians session. Is that the way God calls us to believe, when He continually instructs to reflect, to ponder, to think deeply... TO REASON?
Why, in order to make Maryam pregnant should he need or want to send His roh in the appearance of a bashar?
Is not every creature conceived a roh from the Almighty? What do we think, that WE do it? We should read carefully the words of the Qur'an on conception. When we need to think that He made a miracle for Maryam to conceive, we really, really, do not believe so much in Him with respecto to anything else. We ourselves are a miracle.
Salaam
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I found Quranic evidence which proofs that the history of Islam need to be revamp hmm. I am not sure about this and that if anyone can shed some lights !
High possibility that Prophet Muhammad, was born before the 4th Century of the Common Era and the Holy Quran was sent down in the 4th Century in order to counter the distortion of the 1st Book of ALLAH, which comprises of the Torah and Injeel by the Roman Christians as confirmed by the Quranic verse below
Peace Hizbullah,
If you are comfortable using historical references a good question would be "who was emperor of Rome during
Muhammad's lifetime" since Rome and other nations had many references to the Roman empire. You could also
compare other rulers, wars that were fought, or who received letters from Muhammad etc.,.God bless
peace
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If you are comfortable using historical references a good question would be "who was emperor of Rome during Muhammad's lifetime" since Rome and other nations had many references to the Roman Empire. You could also compare other rulers, wars that were fought, or who received letters from Muhammad etc.,.
Peace hawk99r
Yes, it is a good question. However, the Quran never mentioned the names of the Emperors of the Roman Empire nor any exchange of letters between the leaders. But the Quran possibly recorded down the speech of these people or events relating to war. For example the Quran mentioned about the Romans in Chapter 30.
- Alif Lam Mim. 2. Victorious the Romans. 3. In the LOW LAND, and they, after their victory, will be defeated. 4. In a few years. The decision of the matter, before and after is only with ALLAH. And on that day, the believers will rejoice. 5. With the help of ALLAH. He helps whom He wills, and HE is the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful. 6. A promise from ALLAH, and ALLAH fails not in HIS promise, but most men know not.
The above military campaign is also recorded in collaboration with Quran 0841 ? 42
.....if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the Day of Criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent.
When you were on the near side of the enemy, and they were on the farther side of the enemy, and the caravan was LOWER than you. If you had made an appointment, you would have missed the appointment. But so that Allah might accomplish a matter already destined - that those who perished would perish upon evidence and those who lived would live upon evidence; and indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
The above military campaign carried out by the Prophet is also recorded in the Quran 03152 to 155.
Historical evidence also proofs that the Roman empire was in a deteriorate position in the 4th Century, especially in the western part of the Empire where the Germanic tribes revolted against the Romans. Another Roman enemy was Attila the Hun, was the ruler of the Huns from 434 until his death in 453. He was leader of the Hunnic Empire , which stretched from the Ural River to the Rhine River and from the Danube River to the Baltic Sea .During his reign he was one of the most feared enemies of the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. He crossed the Danube twice and plundered the Balkans , but was unable to take Constantinople . His unsuccessful campaign in Persia was followed in 441 by an invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire, the success of which emboldened Attila to invade the West . He also attempted to conquer Roman Gaul (modern France), crossing the Rhine in 451 and marching as far as Aurelianum (Orl?ans ) before being defeated at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains.
Peace