To Layth - About the 19 and Smoke Articles
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
Waleikum Salaam Mquran,
Yes Muhmmad means Muhammed son of Abdullah.
I am sorry unable to understand the reference 651 at the moment in connection to finality of prophet.
Al-Quraan says the messenger's name is Ahmad, not Muhammad.
65/1 says o prophet, when YOU (in plural, talaqTUM)...
Why , if the prophethood has ended, was the prophet addressed in plural here ?
thanks and peace
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Salaamun alaikum Marie,
This explanation is not acceptable to me because I believe Allah speaks in a very precise way. If he meant to address Rasool and alladhina aamanu, He would have said so. 23/51 and 65/1 are proofs to me that both risaalat and nabuwwat are on-going processes.
thanks and peace.
Salaamun alaikum mquran,
If nubuwwat/prophethood is finished, why does 65/1 use 'you' in plural ? See word 'talaqTUM' ?
Both the prophet and us are concerned by this verse. we read "O thou prophet" instead of "O YOU prophets" like in 2351
O messengers, eat from what is good, and do righteous work. I am aware of what you do.
Ya ayyuha alrrusulu kuloo mina alttayyibati waiAAmaloo salihaninnee bima taAAmaloona AAaleemun
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Salaam mquran,
Al-Quraan says the messenger's name is Ahmad, not Muhammad.
Are you serious??? Can you justify/prove/support the name Ahmad as being a messenger/prophet and not Muhammad?
Assuming that Ahmad was indeed a prophet whom the Quran was revealed, then Muhammad's character perhaps would illustrate as defined in ahadiths, thereby creating havoc at faithfreedom.com and hence his exaltation and the Arabic Religion? Also, doesn't the bible address the coming of the next apostle named Ahmad? Another interesting point to note is that Muhammad's name as a prophet is no where mentioned alongside any other prophets/messengers throughout the Quran? O well, neither is Ahmad's!!!
65/1 says o prophet, when YOU (in plural, talaqTUM)...
If YOU denotes plurality (talaqtum), then "O prophet" (nabi) must read "O prophets" (umbia), wouldn't it?
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Salaam Taj,
Are you telling me, Joe, that once a rejecter, is always a rejecter!? Is that your final judgment on sinners!? shock
It is a possibility, yes. It seems to me as if this is the consistent life of these people, a state of rejection. Ask yourself your very own question Taj. If they were not always kafireen then why should Allah punish them for not being such, i.e. on an inconsistent basis?
Clearly to me, Lot (or Lut) was helping his people to repent and was being extra helpful when he was giving them the right alternative Marriage as a way for purity. And Lot was even more helpful when he suggested his own daughters as wives for them.
Taj how do you determine marriage as a way for purity? Is purity simply given or is it something to be grasped through one's effort? Again why should he offer his daughters to these consistent sinners, especially those who clearly have no desire for the opposite sex? To me that would be like a waste of resources.
(1)Where do you find in the Quran that Jonah ran away? No where! Jonah DID NOT run away, and certainly not from Allah! (2)A Messenger is certainly the last one to think that he can run away from Allah. Don't you think, Joe?
1- Jonah went off thinking Allah would not hem him in
If he went off from accomplishing what Allah had in mind can he not in effect be going off from Allah, not in the sense of escaping the all pervading presence of Allah?
2- Rusul are human like all others and if you hold them in such esteem to even be the last to do such, it does not make it imposssible or unlikely that they could not and would not think such things.
Jonah lost faith IN HIS PEOPLE and not in Allah. Jonah became mad at the disobedience of his people to Allah?s Message.
Taj, that is not how the hadeeth goes. Let me put forth the ayaat for your discretion.
2187-88 And Jonah, when he went off in anger, and he thought that We would not be able to take him. Then he called out in the darkness ?There is no god but You! Glory to You, I was of the wicked!? So We responded to him and We saved him from distress. And it is such that We save the faithful.
37139-148 And Jonah was one of the messengers. When he escaped to the charged ship. And he was guilty, so he became among the losers. Thus a whale swallowed him, and he was the one to blame. And had it not been that he was one of those who implored, He would have stayed in its belly until the Day of Resurrection. So We threw him on the shore while he was sick. And We caused seaweed to grow on him. And We sent him to a hundred thousand, or more. And they believed, so We gave them enjoyment for a time.
6848-50 You shall be patient for the judgement of your Lord. And do not be like he who called from inside the whale while he was in sorrow. Had it not been for his Lord's grace, he would have remained trapped, while he was to be blamed. But his Lord blessed him, and made him righteous.
The rasool was guilty, not out of guilt for his people, but for abandonment. Clearly the people to whom he was sent believed contrary to your deductions .
Allah saved Jonah twice. When Allah first sent the whale to swallow Jonah and didn't leave Jonah to drown. And that was one special honor that no other Prophet or Messenger ever had. Jonah was the only one who was given the opportunity to worship Allah in the belly of a whale. Have you, Joe, heard of another Messenger who had the same honor? Allah saved Jonah again when Allah allowed the whale to breath out Jonah on the land.
The whale was not a saving grace from Allah, though from this predicament he came out all the wiser. The whale was the lord of the unstable enviroment of the waters, which shows us that Jonah fell into some wrongdoing with some society. He finally found solace when he was spit out on firm ground, i.e. he reverted back to his roots and the foundations of the deen. What honor is there is living inside a whale to worship Allah? Albiet I'll give you the honor to take my place in that predicament any day. lol
A "wrong" is when you intend it, not when something wrong happens as a result of something that was good-intended. Moses' mistake was when he at face value believed his fellow man and tried to defend him. What did Moses exactly do? He slightly pushed the other man away from the crying man. The death of the other man was bound to happen because Allah clearly says
which refers to death as inMusa was wrong from the beginning. You're not seeing that because in your eyes these rusul are heavenly angels who can do no wrong whatsoever. He was wrong in his judgement and even though part of his judgement did not involve the intention of killing a man, it lead to it and therefore, mistake upon mistake, the worse for him. There was no slight push, slight pushes do not kill people.
Meaning that the life of that person was decided by Allah to end at that particular moment, when Moses pushed him with his hand
Allah did not say so Moses killed the man!Allah is the one who decides when all life ends. You're trying to reconcile your belief that rusul are not sinful and therefore you come up with this idea that Allah killed him. Allah takes and gives life and all life has a determined length which none can shorten or lengthen. So yes, musa was responsible even as Pharaoh was responsible for taking the life of the young, even though, remember, only Allah can take life for all life has it's set term given by Allah.
Of course, to Moses IT DID look like he killed him. The man died instantly! So Moses thought that it was because of his hand.
Moses was terrified of what had resulted from his intervention and immediately repented. How did Allah receive Moses regrets? Allah immediately forgave him. Why? Because the death was intended (as a fate) to come to that man at that particular moment. So the man's death had nothing to do with Moses' hand-push.Taj you're giving an arabic lesson and ignoring the very arabic passages themselves. In ayat 2040 it says waqatalta nafsan which means 'and you killed/slew a being/person'. You going to deny this? Come on Taj, let's not try to play word games here. If the death had nothing to do with musa then why repent and why should Allah except repentance? Does Allah now judge people according to works that are not of their hands or makings? Do you see what you are saying and how you are only confusing the hadeeth?
In ayaat 2815-16 you show us where it is not the fault of musa.
In ayat 2833 you show us where his own confession to the killing 'qataltu/I killed' is wrong when Allah does not even make it a point to be like 'No, I did it, it's not your fault'.
Remember ayat 3145 which I kept referring to in this here dialogue.
3145 No one dies except by GOD's leave, at a predetermined time.
I want to ask you, Joe, do you see in the Quran that Allah has punished Moses for that accident? If Moses' action was intentional, I am sure that Allah, The All Fair, will see that Moses gets his proper punishment. Don't you think? Please point out an Ayah that condemns Moses for the death of that person!
What I clearly see in the Quran is quite the contrary! Allah has sent a special Messenger to Moses urging him to get out of town warning him of the people who were after him in revenge.No punishment does not make it not the fault of musa. Is it fair punishment that evil-doers have an abundance of wealth and a great life on this earth? Why does not Allah punish them? We see that musa seeks forgiveness to this act for which Allah gives a valid redemption sense it is the fault of musa.
Condemnation, it was not an on-going thing. From this musa learned not to generalize. Also if this were to be consistent he should have done the same to the other man who he saved when the guy taunted him.
To forbid yourself of something that is not Haram is not a sin. Prophet Israel (PBUH) in did forbid himself (only himself) of things and Allah did not condemn that. In a modern example, Muslim vegetarians forbid themselves from eating animal products and that is not Haram. That is their choice. A doctor can forbid his patients from Halal food if by consuming such foods a damage to their health could result. The doctor has the full right to forbid and it is the patient?s duty to obey and follow the doctor?s orders religiously.
Okay Taj. roll I forbid myself marriage as a stepping stone to having sexual relations to women. So now I can go out and sleep with all the women I want without having to marry them. It's not a sin, just a diverse course that is approved of and not sinful in Allah's eyes.
Joe
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Salaamun alaikum,
What a man does with the 24 hours in a day that God gives him is not my concern...RK may have chose to spend much of his spare time looking at the authenticity issue and examining old copies of the Quran as well as looking at numeric formulas...I have no problem with any of these actions since his position was crystal clear "do not follow me, follow the Quran".
Ok, but if he called on you to follow al-quraan, then he cannot have told you 2 verses are false as you would be following 'false information' about the Rasul and not the complete al-quraan. Further, a messenger who recieves wahi and inzaal cannot possibly override that with mere research!
Also, I read in your post that the action of being killed is a 'weakness' or is some proof that the man was not a messenger or not protected by God (correct me if I have misred).
In such a case, I would point you to the facts in 291 where God's prophets (let alone messengers) have been killed...I also would point you to 3626 where a man who has believed is killed and enters paradise as a martyr
.No, you've not misread. To me, a messenger cannot be physically killed. Al-Quraan says
In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time) "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!
"We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-
(41/30-31)The angels are the waliy, protectors of those who believe in Allah and establish thier deen, as a messenger would do.
Further
Verily Allah will defend those who believe verily, Allah loveth not any that is a traitor to faith, or show ingratitude. (22/38 )
If Allah is defending you, no one can get at you. Of course, this depends if one is a believer or not.
I see a pattern in the properties that the number 19 posseses when dealing with the initials of the chapters...this pattern for me (Layth) speaks beyong co-incidence or porbability...Although I already believe, this pattern strengthens my belief in the Scripture...In this light when I see the verses in chapter 74, I see the link between the 'ida' and between the properties...That is not to say there are no properties in nature also related to this 'ida' (such as the metonic cycle), which also goes back to the same source - the design of the Almighty
Well, that's good and fair enough.
As in the examples I have already given, being a believer (or even a prophet) does not mean you cannot be killed.
please see above verses.
We are not speaking about 'our' deen...We are speaking a message that was sent to a particlular race of people through Moses...That message contained laws specific to them (such as the Sabaath as a punishemnt, or the food groups they were being forbidden from).
But Al-Quraan says
Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the apostles before thee that thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty (41/43)
So there was no difference in the message at all. The Sunnis have thier own food prohibitions because they differed about what the message was.
Moses went to Pharoah to ask for the release of the Children of Israel (not to convert people to Islam)...Whether people who saw the power supporting Moses (such as the magicians) chose to believe is due to their free-will...
I would beg to differ here, because Musa said
Moses said "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if you are MUSLIMEEN (10/84)
Bani Israil are essentially the muslim community of al-quraan, its heights and pitfalls. Imho, to judge 'bani israil' as jews now would be incorrect and would be a race-oriented interpretation.
We took the Children of Israel across the sea Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in I am from AL-MUSLIMEEN (10/90)
So Firaun himself admitted who bani israil were.
Words that have multiple meanings (such as 'Daraba') are determined by the context...I would follow that rule in all cases.
I'm not sure how 'shaqqa' could be determined to be breached, as the verse is the starting verse and 54/2 doesn't seem to colour 54/1 in any way. That's of course only my opinion.
thanks and peace.
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Salaamun alaikum mquran,
When the God speaks to the prophet, the messenger, the first person of the singular form is systematically used
O thou prophet 864, 8 65, 8 70, 973, 33 1, 33 28, 3345, 3350, 3359, 6012, 661, 669,
O thou messenger 541, 567
651 is addressed to the men (both the prophet and the believers).The god speaks to us in several ways through His prophet.
? Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu ithatallaqtumu alnnisaa ? translated as
O Prophet! When you men intend to divorce women..
Or
O you prophet, if any of you have divorced the women..
You wrote
"23/51 and 65/1 are proofs to me that both risaalat and nabuwwat are on-going processes"
I respect your view but the goal of my last post is not about to prove your point or the oposite. The god sends His messengers to every nation )
Peace
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Salaamun alaikum Danish,
Are you serious??? Can you justify/prove/support the name Ahmad as being a messenger/prophet and not Muhammad
Yes, please see 61/6.
Assuming that Ahmad was indeed a prophet whom the Quran was revealed, then Muhammad's character perhaps would illustrate as defined in ahadiths, thereby creating havoc at faithfreedom.com and hence his exaltation and the Arabic Religion? Also, doesn't the bible address the coming of the next apostle named Ahmad? Another interesting point to note is that Muhammad's name as a prophet is no where mentioned alongside any other prophets/messengers throughout the Quran? O well, neither is Ahmad's!!!
Well, to me, neither Ahmad nor Muhammad belongs to the Arabic religion. Who the prophet in their legends was isn't vital to the message.
If YOU denotes plurality (talaqtum), then "O prophet" (nabi) must read "O prophets" (umbia), wouldn't it?
indeed it should be. im quite baffled myself. i guess only one prophet comes at a time, perhaps ?
thanks and peace
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Salaamun alaikum Marie,
Sorry, but to me, unless the term 'believers' (i.e O nabi, tell the believers or 'o nabi and believers' ) is used, I will not assume. To me, clear evidence is necessary.
Yes, The god sends messengers to every nation. Are we same nation as Arabs of 7th century ? not in my opinion.
thanks and peace.
Salaamun alaikum mquran,
When the God speaks to the prophet, the messenger, the first person of the singular form is systematically used
O thou prophet 864, 8 65, 8 70, 973, 33 1, 33 28, 3345, 3350, 3359, 6012, 661, 669,
O thou messenger 541, 567
651 is addressed to the men (both the prophet and the believers).The god speaks to us in several ways through His prophet.
? Ya ayyuha alnnabiyyu ithatallaqtumu alnnisaa ? translated as
O Prophet! When you men intend to divorce women..
Or
O you prophet, if any of you have divorced the women..
You wrote
"23/51 and 65/1 are proofs to me that both risaalat and nabuwwat are on-going processes"
I respect your view but the goal of my last post is not about to prove your point or the oposite. The god sends His messengers to every nation
Peace
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Sorry, but to me, unless the term 'believers' (i.e O nabi, tell the believers or 'o nabi and believers' ) is used, I will not assume. To me, clear evidence is necessary.
Agree but the fact that the prophet is used in singular form and the verb tallaqa/to divorce is used in the plural form imply both the prophet and belivers are concerned by this command. There is several verses which are adressed to the prophet about his wives and 651 belongs to this list
If only the prophet is concerned by this command that breaks the grammatical rules or there is a mistake; we should read O YOU prophets instead of O thou prophet..
This verse is reavealed through it both for Him and the believers mensingular form go with singular form like in 864, 8 65, 8 70, 973, 33 1, 33 28, 3345, 3350, 3359, 6012, 661, 669 and vice versa
3328 O thou Prophet! Tell (thou) your wives, ?If you desire the life of this world and its glitter ? well, then, I shall provide you to your contentment and let you go in a becoming manner.? (The Prophet had chosen not to keep a standard of living higher than the poorest of Madinah, and the mothers of believers were seeing other women living in relative affluence).
Singular form with plural form doesn't make sence grammatically.
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Salaam Marie,
Agree but the fact that the prophet is used in singular form and the verb tallaqa/to divorce is used in the plural form imply both the prophet and belivers are concerned by this command. There is several verses which are adressed to the prophet about his wives and 651 belongs to this list
It implies to you but to me, unless the ayat is clear, it doesn't imply so.
Singular form with plural form doesn't make sence grammatically.
Sadly, you have to take that up with the author, Marie. I'm only expecting the author to say what means because He swears the Book is clear (43/2).
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Salaam Aleikum MQuran,
I get so much confused after getting involved in discussion that I need clarification to make things clear.
What is the status of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) according to Qur'an?
Who is Ahmed according to your understanding?
Why Qur'an needs approval of 19 forumula or as a matter of fact any other research to prove its authenticity?
Why every false prophet after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) try to close the door on prophethood claimining to be the last?
What would be the status of muslims like me who will never accept any prophet after Prophet Muhammad according to Qur'an?
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Layth
Your signature is very appealing One God, One Book, One Nation but unfortunately you started to go in opposite direction of your motto. You and the freeminds.org will create more divisions among already very much divided ummah. It is very sad to see the character assinations of prophets mentioned by name in Qur'an and you even had not hesitated to pass judgement that they were all sinners murderer hypocrite.
You hope to create unity by creating alliances with the group of people who had deleted two verses of Qur'an who according to my estimate do not have more than few thousands followers. This will not create any unity it will alienate you and your new Islamic Reform alliance from majority of muslims.
9128 Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves it grieves him that ye should perish ardently anxious is he over you to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.
9129 But if they turn away, Say "God sufficeth me there is no god but He On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"I don't see anything wrong with the verses and certainly are not against the monotheism. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was most kind and most mericul person described in Qur'an. We all can achieve these attributes if we simply follow Qur'an.
I will keep opposing all the wrong concept, you are free to block me from using your forum, the opposition is not against you it is for the supremecy of Allah (SWT) message and for last Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
I get so much confused after getting involved in discussion that I need clarification to make things clear
My humblest apologies for that. I realise how frustrating that can be as i am from a sunni background. My advice for you if you find it too confusing, stop for a second. Engage with Al-Quraan yourself. Free-minds is the culmination of 5 years of discussion and debate and it can get very convoluted at times.
What is the status of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) according to Qur'an?
He is Rasulullah (48/29). The Quran was revealed on him (47/4). We don't need to know more about him than what Al-Quraan tells us.
Who is Ahmed according to your understanding?
The messenger after Isa (61/6)
Why Qur'an needs approval of 19 forumula or as a matter of fact any other research to prove its authenticity?
The Quran has its own method of proving itself. See 41/53. Why ? My guess is, human being are thinking creatures. We would naturally seek proof.
Why every false prophet after Prophet Muhammad (SAW) try to close the door on prophethood claimining to be the last?
I have no idea. I never met any of them.
What would be the status of muslims like me who will never accept any prophet after Prophet Muhammad according to Qur'an?
I can't say. Depends on whether 'al-haqq reached you or not. Just because someone preached to you, doesn't mean al-haqq reached you.
thanks and peace
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Peace KGB,
I will keep opposing all the wrong concept, you are free to block me from using your forum, the opposition is not against you it is for the supremecy of Allah (SWT) message and for last Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
You keep saying that. ? You will not be "blocked" from this forum unless you break the forum rules. Opposing views is not one of them. Infact it is because of 'opposing views' that we developed as much as we have. You are free to oppose and agree as you wish, also bringing new thoughts/concepts are always welcome here. D
Peace!
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Walleikum Salaam M Quran,
Thanks for the answering the questions but you were diplomatic in answering some questions.
Al Haq to me is Qur'an. Al Haq to me is that Prophet Muhammad was the last messager and prophet of Allah (SWT).
What is not Al Haq (The Truth) when people trying to change the meaning of the very clear verses finding the root of each and every word of Qur'an, it is not Al Haq (the truth) to create doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an, it is not Al Haq (the truth) to critise Prophet Muhammad or any other prophets to promote the so called unity.
Again simple question do you believe Rashad Al Khalifah is justified in deleting two verses of Qur'an and he is the prophet.
PS I did not find anything regarding Prophet Ahmad after Issa. Muhammad was the prophet after Propet Issa the promised one.
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Salaam KGB,
Rashad did not claim to be a nabi. I do.
Also keep in mind the hadeeth of musa which I have been discussing with Taj, that assuming and generalizing can get you into trouble. Therefore we must utilize ayat 1736, it is very important. So therefore, before assuming we are like other forums who banned you for being different, take note of the differences of opinion here, which you have already seen and alluded to in other posts.
Zien has already given you the link to the forum rules which you should take a look at to be secure in what you believe can happen to you if you take a particular course herein.
I'm not sure if people are all the time trying to create doubts about alquran, but simply opening other doors to what may actually be going on regarding the teachings. If alquran is the truth, you must provide it's authenticity .
Joe
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
Thanks for the answering the questions but you were diplomatic in answering some questions
I try to be always diplomatic. That way I don't get beaten up.
Al Haq to me is Qur'an. Al Haq to me is that Prophet Muhammad was the last messager and prophet of Allah (SWT).
If that's your truth, alhamdulillah.
What is not Al Haq (The Truth) when people trying to change the meaning of the very clear verses finding the root of each and every word of Qur'an, it is not Al Haq (the truth) to create doubts about the authenticity of Qur'an, it is not Al Haq (the truth) to critise Prophet Muhammad or any other prophets to promote the so called unity.
Change the meaning from what ? Al-Quraan acts as its own authentication device for meaning. We can easily verify meaning.
People can and do have doubts. Have you ever asked any 'muslim' why he or she believes Al-Quraan is the book from Allah ?
Al-Quraan is al-haqq , right ? Well, it itself criticises the prophets for thier mistakes. There's nothing wrong with this because they are meant to be our examples and we are , after all, human.
Again simple question do you believe Rashad Al Khalifah is justified in deleting two verses of Qur'an and he is the prophet.
No, I don't. Not a messenger either.
PS I did not find anything regarding Prophet Ahmad after Issa. Muhammad was the prophet after Propet Issa the promised one
.Please see 61/6. Who is mentioned as the messenger coming after Isa ?
thanks and peace.
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Walleikum Salaam Joe,
The Nabi I thought is in connection with the Nabis of Allah (SWT). Good luck. lol )
Now the serious reply regarding criticizing and character analysis of previous prophets including Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as I know him by reading Qur'an was the merciful, soft spoken, kind harted, shy who even feel ashamed to asked the guests to disperse, truthful, honest, the perfect judge resolving peoples differences, the excellent leader who has succeeded in creating unity among all the Arab tribes who had the history of fighting each other, excellent commander in chief, the perfect administrator and the head of the government.
The very minor mistakes of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) revealed in Qur'an is to show the believers that he was human and it is Allah (SWT) who is perfect. The purpose is not for us to start passing judgement on Prophet Muhammad (SAW) character and declare him a sinner. Allah (SWT) hide our daily most sinester sins without revealing to everyone whereas Allah (SWT) did not spare Prophet Muhammad (SWT) when he frowned and turned away. How many times we frowned arrogantly daily and get away with it, numerous times. We really are not in any position to criticize any of the prophets mentioned by name in Qur'an and pass our judgements, their position and ranks are much more higher than us all let Allah (SWT) be the judge.