:: Do tawakkal on Allah or be a mushrik ::
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You should analyze and understand these aayaat carefully 1745 - 1746 and 3945 and 4012.
So what is your conclusion ?
You don't agree that Iblees prostate to Allah Alone, and the angels prostrate to Allah and Adam ?
Ignominy shall be their portion
wheresoever they are found
save (where they grasp)
a rope from Allah (hablum minallah)
and
a rope from men (hablum minannas)
(3112)Who is Muhammad? Please take a look at my detailed thread here.
I don't know what's the merit of your point but what I'm trying to show is that there is a chronological order of the revelations. . according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. . and because Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to Muhammad. This chronological order of the verses is very crucial to the understanding of the Quran because it shows us step by step how to understand and implement the rules in the Quran.
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Peace,
I am doubtful of the word's meaning as prostrate at all but I believe it to mean submit or humble. Perchance the word does not even mean that but mean behold or similar is in admire something. Just as 'muslims' in this case I doubt that God told the angels/controllers to physically prostrate or even submit to Adam. That would be against the decree even if explicitly told by God. It does not suit the context. It seems retarded that God asks the angels to submit to Adam. Pay homage or something similar I could agree on, but in that case you pay homage to God as well when you do sujud in a masjed (I know Wakas' interpretation of it not meaning place of worship but I did not buy that at least not yet).
The same is when people are told to enter gates in sujud. It simply cannot mean prostrate intricately but pay homage which can be done in more ways than prostration even if the word has become associated with it in the traditional Arab rites and later forgotten of its more generic meaning. Pay homage can be done by bowing your head or kneeling (with one knee for example) so it is a very generic meaning of the word.
God bless you
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It seems retarded that God asks the angels to submit to Adam.
Isn't that what the angels do all this time ? To serve human beings etc ? Well. . I do believe it is consistent with the facts of the Quran , and to serve Allah means to serve other human beings , to follow Allah's commands for the benefit of ourselves, family, friends and other human beings. . . It is all about human beings and because no one knows what is Allah.
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Peace,
It may be so, but that they submit or yield to Adam is still slightly inaccurate. It seems a bit off. Pay homage to the human Adam could be it in that case. A show of respect to him. All except Ebless accepted to do it because he was too arrogant to show any respect to someone as inferior because he is made of fire while humans are of mud.
If they serve anything it is God and not some human. If they do something for us it is because God decreed an order. They are hardly subordinate to us.
God bless you
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If they serve anything it is God and not some human.
If this is your contention . . then we don't have to serve and take care our family, children, friends, family and other human beings . . . We only serve God and pray all the time , but wait. . .what is God's commands in the Quran ? Righteousness etc ? Isn't it to serve other human beings ? Now. . . is this the same as what the angels are doing for all this time ? ie. God command angels to serve human beings . . . prostrate to Adam (ie. mankind).
And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants <- this is what Adam represents
and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?"
They said, "Yes, we have testified."- lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)
To serve Allah is to serve mankind . . .
You alone we serve (ie. through serving mankind, righteousness), and You alone we seek for help.
1.5God orders justice and goodness
and that you shall help your relatives
and He deters from evil, vice, and transgression
He warns you that you may remember.
(16.90) - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
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Peace,
I do not doubt that the service of mankind is in our mission. But the issue here is submission to Adam under the same "banner" as is done traditionally in a masjed. And I say that the conceived prostration here is a much milder word in the context more to show respect or pay homage. The angels are in service to God and they serve God alone. But they can show respect to Adam and so did all except Ebless.
God bless you
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I do not doubt that the service of mankind is in our mission. But the issue here is submission to Adam under the same "banner" as is done traditionally in a masjed. And I say that the conceived prostration here is a much milder word in the context more to show respect or pay homage. The angels are in service to God and they serve God alone. But they can show respect to Adam and so did all except Ebless.
No one knows what the angels look like. . .and thus, no one knows how they prostrate to Adam . . What we know , that they were assigned and control the earth and the universe , to ensure everything runs according to Allah's commands . . and thus, they are serving mankind , days and nights. . or you believe Allah did all this by Himself ? or Allah reveals the wahy directly to Muhammad ? or you believe Allah serve mankind ?
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So what is your conclusion ?
You don't agree that Iblees prostate to Allah Alone, and the angels prostrate to Allah and Adam ?
Ignominy shall be their portion
wheresoever they are found
save (where they grasp)
a rope from Allah (hablum minallah)
and
a rope from men (hablum minannas)
(3112)Brother, didn't you get what is my conclusion even after going through the aayaat I gave you? Or you don't even bother to check them? hmm
It is very simple that Sajda does not mean prostration. Please take a look at this carefully. And please go through it to understand.
I don't know what's the merit of your point but what I'm trying to show is that there is a chronological order of the revelations. . according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. . and because Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to Muhammad. This chronological order of the verses is very crucial to the understanding of the Quran because it shows us step by step how to understand and implement the rules in the Quran.
Again brother, at least go through the opening post to understand what I meant. Otherwise what remains to discuss. You are coming back with the same things even after giving you the links and aayaat. In short, there is no Muhammed for me.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Brother, didn't you get what is my conclusion even after going through the aayaat I gave you? Or you don't even bother to check them? hmm
It is very simple that Sajda does not mean prostration. Please take a look at this carefully. And please go through it to understand.
I did look at them and my view about Sajda (prostrate) is the angels must "served" human beings. . .
In fact, this what I have been discussing with Man of Faith
No one knows what the angels look like. . .and thus, no one knows how they prostrate to Adam . . What we know , that they were assigned and control the earth and the universe , to ensure everything runs according to Allah's commands . . and thus, they are serving mankind , days and nights. .
and my stance on this issue does not change the facts that there is "hablum minallah" and "hablum minannas" in the Quran.
This is what I've been saying from the start. . .
Obedience to Allah means to serve mankind.
You alone we serve (ie. through serving mankind, righteousness), and You alone we seek for help.
1.5God is not weak and does not need us to serve Him. . he wants us to serve and take care each other.
Maybe your interpretation is from Islam as a "religion" , God and Religion . .
. . .
Again brother, at least go through the opening post to understand what I meant. Otherwise what remains to discuss. You are coming back with the same things even after giving you the links and aayaat. In short, there is no Muhammed for me.
I think you should read again because you have repetedly failed to understand the issue
and your theory that there is no Muhammad doesn't affected the issue I raise in this threadMy point is on the "chronological order" of the Quran, not who is Muhammad. . . or whether Muhammad exists or not
In fact, you can name the Prophet to any names you want. . Ahmad, Bakar, Soleh, Richard, John, Tom, Sam etc. . .but that does not change the facts relating to the "chronological order" of the Quran
that does not change the facts that Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to his Messenger, whoever he may be. . .
it is so since there are chronological events in the Quran . . .wars and such and such.I don't know what's the merit of your point but what I'm trying to show is that there is a chronological order of the revelations. . according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. . and because Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to Muhammad. This chronological order of the verses is very crucial to the understanding of the Quran because it shows us step by step how to understand and implement the rules in the Quran.
That "chronological order" of the Quran is very crucial to the understanding and implementation of the rules in the Quran
It is so since no one can be expected to practice all the rules in the Quran simultaneously
no one will be able to do this, even the Prophet. . . any Prophets!Therefore. . .
It is ridiculous to expect one can practices everything in the Quran and then giving a choice, " tawakkal on Allah or else be a mushrik"
I will write here whatever I was taught by Allah about doing tawakkal on Allah or else be a mushrik
How could this be possible ?
Because if it is true. .everyone on earth will be a mushrik. . . including all Prophets and the Angels.
p.s. btw . . I don't agree with your interpretation relating to Muhammad, it does not fit. . . .I believe there is no "Ahmad", but there is "Muhammad" in the Quran.
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Peace,
God can do anything by own machine. The Master simply says 'be' and it is. The reason The Master reveals things to humans is because it is the most subtle way of doing so without spoiling the test and it exposes most hypocrites. God may send controllers/angels in disguise also as missionaries/co-actors on Earth (as not to spoil the test as in their ethereal form it would be too obvious).
Do you think God lets humans be missionaries/handle the correspondence because God is unable to
do this? How is it with your faith?God is in control of everything including natural laws and God is the foundation of all that, ie it is all "within the palms of his hands" (note allegorical expression!). God can control everything created without anyone helping.
But yet The Master takes people to help the on the mission, but that is to show our own worthiness. God could easily do everything single-handedly. And if we do something to help it is through God, because we use The Master's creation including natural laws to execute our actions. Praise be to our Master!
God bless you
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Do you think God lets humans be missionaries/handle the correspondence because God is unable to
do this? How is it with your faith?God is in control of everything including natural laws and God is the foundation of all that, ie it is all "within the palms of his hands" (note allegorical expression!). God can control everything created without anyone helping.
You are attempting to put words in my mouth . . . who say God unable to do this ? confused
What really happen here is God gave us the brain
and God create a system known as the "Sunnatullah",
and the system has its "law of cause and effect"
and you will not find any changes in the SunnatullahThis is God?s way with those who have passed away before,
and you will not find any change in God?s way
33.62You will not find any change in God?s way
and you will not find any bypass to God?s way
35.43God now asks mankind not to be an idiot waiting everything from Allah,
or even using the corrupted understanding of "tawakkal" while praying days/nights and doing nothing elseGod asks us to do our best to study the system, to study the sign. .
so that we can benefit ourselves, have lots of money to sadaqah, and benefit humanity . . .praise is to Allah , Lord of the worlds
1.2but those who does not understand and living in dreams/nightmares. . .
they will be subjected to the following "Sunnatullah"And whoever turns away from My remembrance
then he will have a miserable life
20.124"Miserable life"? Who are these people ? Isn't it the Muslim Ummah ?
No wonder why. . because they been living in the illusion of God, Religion, Hell, Paradise, Sin, Reward, Angels, Iblees, Satan, Ikhlas, Tawakkal and all the Mutasyaabihat context of life . . rather than in the real world, ie. the "Deen" of Islam.
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Peace,
Yes it is true that we were put into a working world much like a video game and our actions have implications and we are told to struggle in God's cause.
But ultimate God still has no need for us at all.
God bless you
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I did look at them and my view about Sajda (prostrate) is the angels must "served" human beings. . .
You said that but with no aayat to support your claim.
God is not weak and does not need us to serve Him. . he wants us to serve and take care each other.
Oh, so you mean Allah is not weak to serve Him, but He is weak to serve humans!
I think you should read again because you have repetedly failed to understand the issue
and your theory that there is no Muhammad doesn't affected the issue I raise in this threadMy point is on the "chronological order" of the Quran, not who is Muhammad. . . or whether Muhammad exists or not
In fact, you can name the Prophet to any names you want. . Ahmad, Bakar, Soleh, Richard, John, Tom, Sam etc. . .but that does not change the facts relating to the "chronological order" of the Quran
that does not change the facts that Allah does not send a Book perfectly compiled to his Messenger, whoever he may be. . .
it is so since there are chronological events in the Quran . . .wars and such and such.You did not bring me evidence yet for where did you get this so called chronological order of alQuraan?
That "chronological order" of the Quran is very crucial to the understanding and implementation of the rules in the Quran
It is so since no one can be expected to practice all the rules in the Quran simultaneously
no one will be able to do this, even the Prophet. . . any Prophets!Therefore. . .
It is ridiculous to expect one can practices everything in the Quran and then giving a choice, " tawakkal on Allah or else be a mushrik"
How could this be possible ?
Because if it is true. .everyone on earth will be a mushrik. . . including all Prophets and the Angels.
Again, you mixing many things into a single topic. When I said tawakkal, how did you conclude that it means follow everything mentioned in alQuraan?
p.s. btw . . I don't agree with your interpretation relating to Muhammad, it does not fit. . . .I believe there is no "Ahmad", but there is "Muhammad" in the Quran.
That is not a problem for me if you don't agree with my understanding. We all may differ in many things, so it is not an issue.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
I'm going to give my opinion of the poll question.
Though I believe the either-or statement to be a bit problematic, which I will explain why, I do believe it to be factual.
Yes, to rely on anything besides God is to in some sense deem sole reliance not necessary. However I feel as though one of His names is "Most Forgiving" for a reason. I never forget that when I believe I might be in-error.
It is not possible to reasonably rely practically on Him without also putting forth some effort of your own. God gave us the capacity to think, to act. We can rely on God for sustenance, food, water, etc, but we still must put forth the effort of picking up that food or water and chewing/swallowing it. Using that capacity (or relying on the capacity God gave you) in a way to get yourself closer to Him, in my opinion, is not consistent with placing the title of mushrik.
I also think you have to really evaluate how you interpret reliance on Him. If I'm trying to establish a 501 (c)3 non-profit in the US to advance critical thinking Islamic study, I'm going to need to make projections in order to satisfy donors. I can make those projections, because I'm acknowledging that with the favor of God, this is how I believe things will turn out. Do I know for certain? Absolutely not, only God knows. But I believe God knows we do not live in a world full of believers, and thusly, we must keep Him in-mind when do activities that others may not associate with Him (like making financial projections).
In conclusion, I agree that "do tawakkal" on Allah or you may open yourself to being branded mushrik. But I'd say that first, only God may decide who is or is not that. Secondly, that by being sincere and mindful of your connection to God, you may rely on Him even when you deal with situations/people who do not. Thirdly, in those situations when you are not mindful of your connection to Him, then you may be crossing that mushrik border. If that happens though, I'd believe there are varying degrees of defiance that are recorded with varying weight in your book of deeds. Lastly, again, only God knows.
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You said that but with no aayat to support your claim.
Oh, so you mean Allah is not weak to serve Him, but He is weak to serve humans!
You did not bring me evidence yet for where did you get this so called chronological order of alQuraan?
Again, you mixing many things into a single topic. When I said tawakkal, how did you conclude that it means follow everything mentioned in alQuraan?
That is not a problem for me if you don't agree with my understanding. We all may differ in many things, so it is not an issue.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanOkay, I have no idea what you did not understand,
but . . it is obvious that there is no point for me to repeat. . .
according to the link I've given or else, doesn't matter. .
it is so since there are chronological events in the Quran . . .wars and such and such.
. . .
BLUE and also, on the suggestion there is no connection between "mushrik" and "obedience to the commands in the Quran"
We are to do tawakkal on Allah alone being a mumin otherwise we may fall mushrik .
Take note, "mushrik" or "non-mushrik" is about "obedience" to the commands in the Quran, ie. referring to "action" (refer here),
not about "faith", ie. tawakkal, reliance , "iman" . . .I think you're confused because your comparison between "mushrik" (action) and "tawakkal" (faith) was already irrelevant. .
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I'm going to give my opinion of the poll question.
Though I believe the either-or statement to be a bit problematic, which I will explain why, I do believe it to be factual.
Yes, to rely on anything besides God is to in some sense deem sole reliance not necessary. However I feel as though one of His names is "Most Forgiving" for a reason. I never forget that when I believe I might be in-error.
It is not possible to reasonably rely practically on Him without also putting forth some effort of your own. God gave us the capacity to think, to act. We can rely on God for sustenance, food, water, etc, but we still must put forth the effort of picking up that food or water and chewing/swallowing it. Using that capacity (or relying on the capacity God gave you) in a way to get yourself closer to Him, in my opinion, is not consistent with placing the title of mushrik.
I also think you have to really evaluate how you interpret reliance on Him. If I'm trying to establish a 501 (c)3 non-profit in the US to advance critical thinking Islamic study, I'm going to need to make projections in order to satisfy donors. I can make those projections, because I'm acknowledging that with the favor of God, this is how I believe things will turn out. Do I know for certain? Absolutely not, only God knows. But I believe God knows we do not live in a world full of believers, and thusly, we must keep Him in-mind when do activities that others may not associate with Him (like making financial projections).
In conclusion, I agree that "do tawakkal" on Allah or you may open yourself to being branded mushrik. But I'd say that first, only God may decide who is or is not that. Secondly, that by being sincere and mindful of your connection to God, you may rely on Him even when you deal with situations/people who do not. Thirdly, in those situations when you are not mindful of your connection to Him, then you may be crossing that mushrik border. If that happens though, I'd believe there are varying degrees of defiance that are recorded with varying weight in your book of deeds. Lastly, again, only God knows.
Well written!
One trap we fall into is when we try to define God as something, to make a specific image of God... which we cannot properly do. When we create a faulty image, then many other things often suffer, like how we interpret concepts such as 'rely on' and 'serve'.
I think that we wisely instead should think of what God is NOT. This approach may be useful is cleansing the faulty and extremely limited images we have. Atheists also fall into this trap. They have an image, from religion, and then (rightly so) reject it. But then conclusions are made that are not warranted, i.e. that there is no such thing as a Creating Source Intelligence.Peace
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You are attempting to put words in my mouth . . . who say God unable to do this ? confused
What really happen here is God gave us the brain
and God create a system known as the "Sunnatullah",
and the system has its "law of cause and effect"
and you will not find any changes in the SunnatullahThis is God?s way with those who have passed away before,
and you will not find any change in God?s way
33.62You will not find any change in God?s way
and you will not find any bypass to God?s way
35.43God now asks mankind not to be an idiot waiting everything from Allah,
or even using the corrupted understanding of "tawakkal" while praying days/nights and doing nothing elseGod asks us to do our best to study the system, to study the sign. .
so that we can benefit ourselves, have lots of money to sadaqah, and benefit humanity . . .praise is to Allah , Lord of the worlds
1.2but those who does not understand and living in dreams/nightmares. . .
they will be subjected to the following "Sunnatullah"And whoever turns away from My remembrance
then he will have a miserable life
20.124"Miserable life"? Who are these people ? Isn't it the Muslim Ummah ?
No wonder why. . because they been living in the illusion of God, Religion, Hell, Paradise, Sin, Reward, Angels, Iblees, Satan, Ikhlas, Tawakkal and all the Mutasyaabihat context of life . . rather than in the real world, ie. the "Deen" of Islam.
I seriously like your take on things. Very interesting and potent.
Peace -
I'm going to give my opinion of the poll question.
Though I believe the either-or statement to be a bit problematic, which I will explain why, I do believe it to be factual.
Yes, to rely on anything besides God is to in some sense deem sole reliance not necessary. However I feel as though one of His names is "Most Forgiving" for a reason. I never forget that when I believe I might be in-error.
It is not possible to reasonably rely practically on Him without also putting forth some effort of your own. God gave us the capacity to think, to act. We can rely on God for sustenance, food, water, etc, but we still must put forth the effort of picking up that food or water and chewing/swallowing it. Using that capacity (or relying on the capacity God gave you) in a way to get yourself closer to Him, in my opinion, is not consistent with placing the title of mushrik.
I also think you have to really evaluate how you interpret reliance on Him. If I'm trying to establish a 501 (c)3 non-profit in the US to advance critical thinking Islamic study, I'm going to need to make projections in order to satisfy donors. I can make those projections, because I'm acknowledging that with the favor of God, this is how I believe things will turn out. Do I know for certain? Absolutely not, only God knows. But I believe God knows we do not live in a world full of believers, and thusly, we must keep Him in-mind when do activities that others may not associate with Him (like making financial projections).
In conclusion, I agree that "do tawakkal" on Allah or you may open yourself to being branded mushrik. But I'd say that first, only God may decide who is or is not that. Secondly, that by being sincere and mindful of your connection to God, you may rely on Him even when you deal with situations/people who do not. Thirdly, in those situations when you are not mindful of your connection to Him, then you may be crossing that mushrik border. If that happens though, I'd believe there are varying degrees of defiance that are recorded with varying weight in your book of deeds. Lastly, again, only God knows.
Salaam,
Thanks for giving your reasons in detail.
I wanted to ask you two questions, please do not take them wrong but try to answer them. No offence intended but trying to understand the point, inshaAllah.1- I understood from your post that Allah gave us brains and intelligence so we need to think and plan. Allah gave us nail so we need to scratch others in order to use Allah's given ability. Allah gave us strength and a huge body so we need to punch and slap people wherever we find them, in order to use Allah's given ability. Allah gave us legs, so we should not use any vehicle but walk in order to use our ability given by Allah. Allah gave us ability to produce children, so we need to produce them continuously. There are many many more abilities we have given, is that mean we should use all of them or we need to use only few abilities as you mentioned above?
2- Why do you think, no prophet or messenger in alQuraan is called as a non-mushrik except Ibrahim 2135]?
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
1- I understood from your post that Allah gave us brains and intelligence so we need to think and plan. Allah gave us nail so we need to scratch others in order to use Allah's given ability. Allah gave us strength and a huge body so we need to punch and slap people wherever we find them, in order to use Allah's given ability. Allah gave us legs, so we should not use any vehicle but walk in order to use our ability given by Allah. Allah gave us ability to produce children, so we need to produce them continuously. There are many many more abilities we have given, is that mean we should use all of them or we need to use only few abilities as you mentioned above?
2- Why do you think, no prophet or messenger in alQuraan is called as a non-mushrik except Ibrahim ?
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I believe you just created false equivalences. That being, "Allah granted us the ability, therefore why don't we do x?" My specific example was that relying on God-given abilities to create social "goods" is within the scope of relying on Allah. I'll go through your false equivalences individually
1a. Allah gave us nail so we need to scratch others in order to use Allah's given ability. I do not believe scratching others is creating a social "good", therefor I would say this is not the same as my example and I wouldn't agree with it morally or socially.
1b. Allah gave us strength and a huge body so we need to punch and slap people wherever we find them, in order to use Allah's given ability. Same response as previous.
1c. Allah gave us legs, so we should not use any vehicle but walk in order to use our ability given by Allah. We created vehicles through ingenuity which Allah also gave us. I see nothing wrong with that.
1d. Allah gave us ability to produce children, so we need to produce them continuously. I believe the Quran is the least procreation-oriented of the Abrahamic faiths. I've taken this stance as evidenced by a combination of these verses 3021, 7189, and 1672. Unlike in the NT, procreation isn't an obligation. It's something that God rewards you with in Islam.
1e. There are many many more abilities we have given, is that mean we should use all of them or we need to use only few abilities as you mentioned above? As with most things, case-by-case basis. If you are using God-given abilities while keeping in mind that they are indeed from God, and using them towards the benefit of His creations while not harming others, I don't see the problem. -
Why do you think, no prophet or messenger in alQuraan is called as a non-mushrik except Ibrahim ?
I believe the reference to Ibrahim in this case has to do with the fact that he is the first prophet to believe in God as we are attempting to do. And believing as he believed is the truest source of pure submission without any cause to believe other than pure faith. Other prophets had his example to work on. But, the verse also refers specifically to Jews and Christians (people who consider themselves a part of a larger religious community and hold other prophets on similar footing with God). I believe you could insert any prophet in Abraham's place, as the prophets all answer directly to God and hold no other equal to Him. The religious community at-large though, unfortunately, hold those prophets interchangeably with God. Abraham is the human OG(original gangsta for you non-Californians) of our monotheistic belief system, so to speak, so his example is better than the other prophets though I still believe they are worthy of consideration. Using him in 2135 avoids any unnecessary ambiguity as to whether we should attach ourselves to cultures/movements associated with other prophets.
I hope I sufficiently addressed your questions.
I'd like to ask you a follow-up question. Is there a message to be learned in that Ibrahim is the only affirmed non-mushrik and he had no scripture to follow? (While we try to discern a connection to God through scripture)
peace
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