Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

Man_of_Faith

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

I have not used an "ad hominem". It is constructive criticism. It seemed as if you do not comprehend or formulate yourself poorly. I did not intend to offend. One can be bad at expressing their arguments and I find that yours are often very incoherent and nonsensical. I am not perfect myself and I have spent some time at checking different solutions in my presentations. But the result is that we have to understand each other.

This on the other hand is ad hominem

It doesn't make you right at all, but in fact an evidence of "low self esteem". . . laugh

I do not have any low self-esteem. But I find you very offensive and perhaps I am emotional. I cannot relax when you insult me rather than putting forth your arguments. I told you to elaborate and explain instead of just going personal.

The word "opponent" itself. . .

People will need another "interpretation" to understand the word "opponent" since. . .

I told you that you did not see the irony in my statement. It is weird to yell "opponent" in English at someone.

You still do not put forth your arguments about opponents instead of just quoting your words.

People will need another "interpretation" to understand the word "opponent" since. . .

What is your point?

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

This was just a joke if you did not already understand my sarcasm.

your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

Which contention?

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Therefore the word "opponent" is a general word and does not describe verses of the Quran.

Anyone can yell, the "opponent!!!" So ? laugh

You did not understand the point. I am trying not to use a nasty word at you, but your arrogance and unkind ways nearly make me.

Of course opponent is a "general word" and what kind of description are you looking for?

Kafir is a very general word with a simple meaning. You cannot yell 'kafir' without it sounding very ridiculous.

And if two factions among the believers should fight, <- both "opposed" each other, but both are Believers
then make settlement between the two.
But if one of them oppresses the other, <- one of them "opposed" the ordinance of Allah, but they are Believers
then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah .
And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly.
Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
49.9

Yes, both opposed each other. What is your point?

muslims

I cannot relax when you insult me rather than putting forth your arguments.

You consider this is an insult? laugh

I think it should mean something else. .

And if two factions among the believers should fight, <- both "opposed" each other, but both are Believers
then make settlement between the two.
But if one of them oppresses the other, <- one of them "opposed" the ordinance of Allah, but they are Believers
then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah .
And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly.
Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
49.9

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

. . .

I have made my point very clear.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

It doesn't make you right at all, but in fact a clear proof people of "very low self esteem" and "emotional". . . laugh

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

JavaLatte

"Here you have the truthful word for reject."

Peace my brethren,

Here is the word for deny or reject

5012 Before their denial/disbelief/rejection was that of the people of Noah, and the dwellers of Al-Raas, and Thamud.

5013 And ?Aad, and Pharaoh, and the brethren of Lot.

They are offered something which they do not accept whereas they deny or reject it.

239 And those who disbelieve oppose and deny/reject/disbelieve Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied/rejected/disbelieved.

Here you have the truthful word for reject.

Kafir, on the other hand, is when you take action, i.e. oppose in word or physical response.

And note that disbelieve does not even fit the context and is an invented word. There is no disbelief but simply rejection or denial.

287 And We gave Moses the decree, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny/reject, and a group of them you kill!

311 Like the behavior of the people of Pharaoh and those before them. They denied/rejected Our signs so God took them for their sins. God is awesome in retribution.

360 The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us invoke and make the curse of God upon the liars rejectors.?

362 This is the narration of truth, there is no god except God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
363 And if they turn away, then God is aware of the corrupters.

375 And from among the people of the decree are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said ?We have no obligation towards the Gentiles.? They say about God denials while they know.

Know the almost literal translation sounds a bit weird in English. But lie could as well be used in paraphrasing.

God bless you

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Man_of_Faith

You consider this is an insult? laugh

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify. And sorry that I offended by saying what I felt about that I could not understand what you try to convey.

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

Is it not a logical conclusion that they oppose God if they continue to fight even if told to stop fighting and oppress others? What is it that you call conjecture?

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

Thank you.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

I am not using an ad hominem "all the times when people are disagreeing with my opinion".

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

Exactly. It does not make any difference and that was the contention.

Man_of_Faith

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Peace,

No worries. Praise be to God. I just want The Master's decree to be correct without inconsistency.

is the real word for denying or rejecting.

is when you act upon your denial and actively oppose God in various ways (but of it can be used for opposition of any kind, it is not necessarily in religious contexts)

God bless you

muslims

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify.

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Simple. . your interpretation is not accurate or wrong if it is inconsistent with any verses from the Quran; ie. one or more false premises.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? <- ie. referring to your interpretation, or any interpretation
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction. <- ie. inconsistent with other verses from the Quran
4.82

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "opposed" the ordinance of Allah. . . and if you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple, end.

Man_of_Faith

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Yes it could be true, but I still need to understand your statements. And you cannot say something contradict anything when you do not understand what I write. That is why it has to be a mutual understanding first before you refute anything.

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "oppose" the ordinance of Allah. . . and . .

If you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple.

I cannot see any contradiction here. Two groups of people with faith opposed each other and fought. One group begun to oppress or transgress the limits of the other group which means they oppose God's decree. The anyone able to stand up against the group which is violent should do so and oppose the mischief.

What is wrong and in contradiction. And according to the narration both groups are believers. They can be opponents, both of them, nonetheless. The one that becomes violent and aggressive oppose God.

So no problem and we have spent time in vain discussion over something we already agree on.

Man_of_Faith

And the Arabic word k - f - r does not even occur in 499. The believing group that becomes violent are kafir anyway unless they yield and repent. They need to stop their behavior and hopefully God will forgive. God is very forgiving.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

We can go from the end of the recitation as a variation. Let us continue

1090 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?
1092 ?I do not serve what you serve,?
1093 ?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
1094 ?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
1095 ?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
1096 ?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?

1071 Have you seen he who is denying bravo in the system?

Here you have your "disbeliever".

980 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
981 Those who opposed among the people of the decree and the
associators would not leave until a proof came to them.
982 A messenger from God reciting purified scripts.
983 In them are valuable booksdecrees.
984 And those who had previously received the decree did not divide
except after the proof came to them.
985 And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal
to His system, monotheists, and hold the communion/melding and
contribute towards purification. Such is the valuable system.
986 Those who opposed from the people of the decree and the
associators are in the fires of Hell abiding therein, those are the
worst of creation.
987 As for those who have faith and do good works, they are the best of
creation.
988 Their reward with their Lord are gardens of delight with
rivers flowing beneath them, abiding therein eternally. God is
satisfied with them, and they are satisfied with Him. That is for
whoever is concerned towards His Lord.

Red So anyone who disbelieves is the worst of creation? No those who opposed God's system are the worst of creation. They sought corruption, oppression and injustice. And their "gods" "told" them to do so.

God bless you

muslims

1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?

I believe this is not accurate. . .

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

. . .

What does it really mean ?

I believe that the actual word means "Contravener" ,

or we could say that it is more accurate to say it is. . .

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition"

. . .

Why it is a "Contravener"

To understand this we need to understand our relationship with God.

Our relationship with God is a "Contractual Relationship", it is a "Covenant" , ie. . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?" <- This is our "Contract" or "Covenant" with God
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

This is further described as below. . .

Who break the COVENANT of Allah after CONTRACTING it
and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined
and cause corruption on earth.
It is those who are the losers.
2.27

And , when Allah took the COVENANT of the prophets, ,
"Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom
and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you,
you believe in him and support him."
said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
3.81

This is what Islam is all about, it is a "Contract" or a "Covenant" with God

Both parties have agreed to be bound by their Contract, or Covenant

This is equally true with Satan or Iblees , it is a Covenant or Contractual Relationship. . .

. . .

Conclusion

Because it is a contractual or a covenant , the the word accurate to describe this relationship is a "Contravener"

ie. those who contravene their Contract or Covenant with Allah

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition". . .

I believe it is "Contravener". . .

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.
to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

contra'vener

? n

contravention

? n

Please see below. . .

Man_of_Faith

Okay. At least it is somewhere in between what you said.

Peace out

Zulf

Peace all,

I wonder if the words we say are more in disagreement than the ideas we are trying to convey.

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.
to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but to me it seems that br. muslims means that the discussed word means contravene which in turn means to break our covenant with the Creator. At the same time it seems to me that br. MoF says that the word at hand means oppose. Isn't it the system of the Creator that is being opposed? Isn't that the same as breaking the covenant? Am I wrong in thinking that the covenant would include the follow the entire system of the Creator (with sincere effort and intentions)? How can we understand the covenant and uphold it while we don't understand the system put in place by the Creator? I don't think it is possible, because we cannot know the Creator directly, but rather only through the signs in the Creation and through what is inspired to us. So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Let me know where I've misunderstood, if at all.

Best regards

Man_of_Faith

Peace Zulf,

The word that he just picked does mean virtually the same thing. It is just plagiarism and the word does not have any complicated meaning but a quite primitive one like oppose with no specification of what.

Anyway, please bring the topic to the other thread that muslims created and bring that garbage out of my thread. It is off-topic.

God bless you

Existential1

So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Yes, they are. It is semantics, really.

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace brothers,

Yes it is simply about semantics and a play with words. Now take the lame discussion to his thread and continue the circus there please. No bad intentions meant. It is off topic here.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

But it is a very general meaning of the word that exist in the recitation (quran) if we go back to the topic here and it could be to be in opposition to anyone/anything which you do not like. It is not a magical word as all other words and they have a meaning closely attached to the Earth.

Example

If you would steal my bike then I would oppose you (kafar). No "religion" involved, but in from a faith perspective your crime would be opposing God as well. You see where I am taking the word kafir?

To cloud/conceal is nearly right, but you more like suppress the one you "kafar" because you oppose it. You wish to stop it.

I hope you see where I am taking it and you can refer to my recent posts on the subject too.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I have another traditionally "magical" word to take a look at. Let us check al-hikmah which is traditionally regarded as wisdom in the scripture. It is just a minor glance at it and wisdom is still not misrepresenting the word in any way. But yet for someone who wants to read the recorded recitation as accurately as possible I suggest to take a look at some adjustments. I will demonstrate the full power of this station. Monotheist Translation is used as reference.

2129 ?Our Master, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the decree and judgment, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

The word is no more "magical" than the word preceding it, i.e. decree (k-t-b). The decree reflects the various rules to be followed while the judgment is how to apply that decree in a real-life situation. That is why I say that wisdom is not really a wrong choice of interpretation. But right should be right in my opinion, and this word is used for 'to judge' in a verb form. Let us take a look further

2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the decree! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the decree and judgment, and teach you what you did not know.

2188 And do not consume your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers judge so that you may consume a part of the money of other people sinfully while you know!

2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the decree with the truth so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path.

2231 And if you have divorced the women, and they have reached their required interim period, then either you remain together equitably, or part ways equitably. And do not reconcile with them so you can harm them out of animosity; whoever does so is doing wrong to his soul; and do not take the revelations of God as mockery. And remember the blessings of God upon you, and what was sent down to you of the decree and judgment, He warns you with it. And be aware of God and know that God is knowledgeable of all things.

2249 So when Saul set out with the soldiers, he said ?God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me.? They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said ?We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!? But the ones who understood that they would meet God said ?How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!?
2250 And when they came forth to Goliath and his soldiers, they said ?Our Master grant us patience, and make firm our foothold, and grant us victory over the opposing people.?
2251 So they defeated them with the permission of God, and David killed Goliath, and God gave him the kingship the authority and wisdom judgment and taught him what he wished. And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then the earth would have long been corrupted; but God has bestowed grace upon the worlds.

King is the standard rendition for al-malek, but I chose to generalize it into authority for fluency of the text. Same root is used in 14, usually rendered as Master or Lord, but with the definite noun form in 2251 I saw authority to be best in the context. Kingship is also a human term and I deem that God rather uses a descriptive term, i.e. authority. And diacritical marks I give little merit to. I think they were added later throughout the whole recitation to improve the ability to read this old language, and particularly in the way the author of the marks wanted. They can be traps to the full comprehension of the recitation if you rely too much on them.

Blue Please for one final time, consider the usage of k-f-r in this sentence and see that they wish victory against the opponents. Imagine yourselves in their place that they would wish for victory against their adversaries and not particularly against disbelievers. Never heard of anyone in a war situation to win a war against disbelievers except in sectarian contexts. "Please let us win against those who oppose (oppress) us" ought to be the viable choice to understand the phrase.

Here Monotheist Translation actually accurately translates (h-k-m)

1222 And when he reached his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers.

But Yusuf Ali failed to translate properly

When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge thus do We reward those who do right.

2269 He grants wisdom judgment to whom He chooses, and whoever is granted wisdom judgment has been given much good. Only those who possess intelligence will remember.

While wisdom can be quite synonymous with judgment it still risks of feeding some arrogance into the one who reads the passage. The most accurate definition is judgment for these occurrences and best kept that way.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the decree, from which there are law-giving (judgment) revelations; they are the essence of the decree; and others which are of a similitude. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similitude, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say ?We have faith in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will heed except those who possess intelligence.

Ah well. My only real (personal) intention by delving into this word was to pinpoint its root's fundamental meaning which is just judge. I hope more than only me see the danger in translating and understanding it as the Wisdom with capital 'w' and it may give more coherence to certain verses, particularly those mentioned along with ketab (decree). Think of 'command and judgment'. There is a command from God to follow and to judge with it.

God bless you

Armanaziz

Peace,

No worries. I am just set to clarify things and not to get into fights or arguments. You can think it means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector, but then you will have to live with certain inconsistency, and which gives fuel to sectarians.

To oppose does not mean I would beat you to death or hurt you physically, but it can also be to start yelling at you and oppose you in mindset and to spread lies about your cause.

God bless you

As-salamu Alaika brother

From your last comment "...You can think it means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector..." it is obvious to me that I have not been able to adequately communicate what I was saying. I DO NOT think kafir means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector - in fact between "disbeliever" and "opposer" my understanding of the meaning of the term is closer to the later. What I tried to say is that kafir means someone who actively hides / represses / suppresses his conscience and faith. Often this act of (faith) repression would lead to outward opposition with words and actions, but occassionally some people would just be a kafir inside and outwardly pretend to be believer (like indicated in Al Qur'an 541).

And since kufr is essentially an internal phenomenon - it is always inappropriate to call someone kafir because we do not know what is there in someone's heart. Even an apparent "Atheist" may not necessarily be a kafir inside because he may have understood the concept of "God" in his own personal way. Even self proclaimed atheists often use terms like .. "be good for goodnesses sake".. or.. "if you do this, how would you face yourself in the mirror.." etc. This means each one of us have something called "conscience" inside us. Some of us (like me) would submit to the "conscience" understanding this as the will of "God" while others may submit without believing in a "Personal God". But kafir would be the one who represses this consciense - rules it out as a mere illusion. They assume the life of the world is all there is - so they repress this "burden" of consciense and enjoy life through lie, cheat, steal, kill ... whatever. Per my understanding they are the ones who repress (faith), they are the kafir - irrespective of whether outwardly they claim to believe or oppose.

I hope I made my understanding clear. If not - I would just leave it there accepting this as a limitation in my communication ability. Meanwhile if you could refer me to specific verses that would force me to "live with certain inconsistency" based on my understanding - it would certainly be an interesting point of study for me and I would be much grateful.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Peace Arman,

Do not worry. If you are not ready to take in the rift away from the more implemented interpretation I am not opposing that as long as you would be a good fellow. And remember God's system is as much about doing good and acting good as it is about faith. I just want things to be right and that God is pleased.

God bless you