Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity

muslims

I cannot relax when you insult me rather than putting forth your arguments.

You consider this is an insult? laugh

I think it should mean something else. .

And if two factions among the believers should fight, <- both "opposed" each other, but both are Believers
then make settlement between the two.
But if one of them oppresses the other, <- one of them "opposed" the ordinance of Allah, but they are Believers
then fight against the one that oppresses until it returns to the ordinance of Allah .
And if it returns, then make settlement between them in justice and act justly.
Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
49.9

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

. . .

I have made my point very clear.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

It doesn't make you right at all, but in fact a clear proof people of "very low self esteem" and "emotional". . . laugh

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

JavaLatte

"Here you have the truthful word for reject."

Peace my brethren,

Here is the word for deny or reject

5012 Before their denial/disbelief/rejection was that of the people of Noah, and the dwellers of Al-Raas, and Thamud.

5013 And ?Aad, and Pharaoh, and the brethren of Lot.

They are offered something which they do not accept whereas they deny or reject it.

239 And those who disbelieve oppose and deny/reject/disbelieve Our revelations, they are the dwellers of Hell, in it they will abide.

210 In their hearts is a disease, so God increases their disease, and they will have a painful retribution for what they have denied/rejected/disbelieved.

Here you have the truthful word for reject.

Kafir, on the other hand, is when you take action, i.e. oppose in word or physical response.

And note that disbelieve does not even fit the context and is an invented word. There is no disbelief but simply rejection or denial.

287 And We gave Moses the decree, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, the clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny/reject, and a group of them you kill!

311 Like the behavior of the people of Pharaoh and those before them. They denied/rejected Our signs so God took them for their sins. God is awesome in retribution.

360 The truth is from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say ?Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us invoke and make the curse of God upon the liars rejectors.?

362 This is the narration of truth, there is no god except God; and God is the Noble, the Wise.
363 And if they turn away, then God is aware of the corrupters.

375 And from among the people of the decree are those whom if you entrust him with a large amount he gives it back to you, and there are those whom if you entrust with one gold coin he will not return it to you unless you are standing over him. That is because they said ?We have no obligation towards the Gentiles.? They say about God denials while they know.

Know the almost literal translation sounds a bit weird in English. But lie could as well be used in paraphrasing.

God bless you

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Man_of_Faith

You consider this is an insult? laugh

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify. And sorry that I offended by saying what I felt about that I could not understand what you try to convey.

And they oppose (k - f - r) God if they insist on continuing the fighting.

Therefore, your contention is based on "conjecture", so it is fine as an opinion. . . and it can be anything as you can imagine. . .

Is it not a logical conclusion that they oppose God if they continue to fight even if told to stop fighting and oppress others? What is it that you call conjecture?

and you can continue to believe, "opponent!!!" . . .

Thank you.

Relax. . you don't have to use ad hominem all the times when people are disagreeing with you opinion.

I am not using an ad hominem "all the times when people are disagreeing with my opinion".

So if you curse someone by yelling "Kaffir!!!", then you actually yell in English, "opponent!!!".

Anyone on this earth can yell the same, "opponent"!!!

It makes no difference at all.

Exactly. It does not make any difference and that was the contention.

Man_of_Faith

So,

= "deny" or "reject" <---- I suppose that's quite right.

I found in corpus that translated as deny/denies/denied,

however, looks like it also suitable enough to mean "reject"

You really put big effort for this thread.... )

Thanks for sharing brother MoF.

Peace. May Allah bless you.

Peace,

No worries. Praise be to God. I just want The Master's decree to be correct without inconsistency.

is the real word for denying or rejecting.

is when you act upon your denial and actively oppose God in various ways (but of it can be used for opposition of any kind, it is not necessarily in religious contexts)

God bless you

muslims

You are not factual instead of just saying what I am or not am. I said that I asked you to clarify.

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Simple. . your interpretation is not accurate or wrong if it is inconsistent with any verses from the Quran; ie. one or more false premises.

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? <- ie. referring to your interpretation, or any interpretation
If it had been from other than Allah
they would have found within it much contradiction. <- ie. inconsistent with other verses from the Quran
4.82

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "opposed" the ordinance of Allah. . . and if you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple, end.

Man_of_Faith

Why should I ? The burden of proof as to any particular fact lies on that person who wishes people to believe in his conclusion, and it is you who are making contentions and want people to believe the word mean "oppose". Therefore , it is your burden of proof to show that your interpretation does not contradict any verses from the Quran.

Yes it could be true, but I still need to understand your statements. And you cannot say something contradict anything when you do not understand what I write. That is why it has to be a mutual understanding first before you refute anything.

I am merely pointing out there is a verse in the Quran that call the parties as "Believers" even though they "opposed" each other, and even though one of the party "oppose" the ordinance of Allah. . . and . .

If you cannot explain this contradiction without using "conjecture", then your interpretation is not accurate, or wrong. Simple.

I cannot see any contradiction here. Two groups of people with faith opposed each other and fought. One group begun to oppress or transgress the limits of the other group which means they oppose God's decree. The anyone able to stand up against the group which is violent should do so and oppose the mischief.

What is wrong and in contradiction. And according to the narration both groups are believers. They can be opponents, both of them, nonetheless. The one that becomes violent and aggressive oppose God.

So no problem and we have spent time in vain discussion over something we already agree on.

Man_of_Faith

And the Arabic word k - f - r does not even occur in 499. The believing group that becomes violent are kafir anyway unless they yield and repent. They need to stop their behavior and hopefully God will forgive. God is very forgiving.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

We can go from the end of the recitation as a variation. Let us continue

1090 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?
1092 ?I do not serve what you serve,?
1093 ?Nor do you serve what I serve,?
1094 ?Nor will I serve what you serve,?
1095 ?Nor will you serve what I serve,?
1096 ?To you is your system, and to me is mine.?

1071 Have you seen he who is denying bravo in the system?

Here you have your "disbeliever".

980 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
981 Those who opposed among the people of the decree and the
associators would not leave until a proof came to them.
982 A messenger from God reciting purified scripts.
983 In them are valuable booksdecrees.
984 And those who had previously received the decree did not divide
except after the proof came to them.
985 And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal
to His system, monotheists, and hold the communion/melding and
contribute towards purification. Such is the valuable system.
986 Those who opposed from the people of the decree and the
associators are in the fires of Hell abiding therein, those are the
worst of creation.
987 As for those who have faith and do good works, they are the best of
creation.
988 Their reward with their Lord are gardens of delight with
rivers flowing beneath them, abiding therein eternally. God is
satisfied with them, and they are satisfied with Him. That is for
whoever is concerned towards His Lord.

Red So anyone who disbelieves is the worst of creation? No those who opposed God's system are the worst of creation. They sought corruption, oppression and injustice. And their "gods" "told" them to do so.

God bless you

muslims

1091 Say ?O rejecters opponents,?

I believe this is not accurate. . .

"Those who oppose harmony and balance in the system are your kafiroon"

This is in response to the Man of Faith's argument that the word "Kafiroon" means "Opposition"

I couldn't agree with the translation. . and also,

I couldn't agree with all the translations that it means as "Disbeliever" or "Denier" etc. . .

. . .

What does it really mean ?

I believe that the actual word means "Contravener" ,

or we could say that it is more accurate to say it is. . .

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition"

. . .

Why it is a "Contravener"

To understand this we need to understand our relationship with God.

Our relationship with God is a "Contractual Relationship", it is a "Covenant" , ie. . .

And when your Lord
took from the children of Adam
from their loins
their descendants

and made them testify of themselves
, "Am I not your Lord?" <- This is our "Contract" or "Covenant" with God
They said, "Yes, we have testified."

lest you should say on the day of Resurrection
"Indeed, we were of this unaware"
(7172)

This is further described as below. . .

Who break the COVENANT of Allah after CONTRACTING it
and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined
and cause corruption on earth.
It is those who are the losers.
2.27

And , when Allah took the COVENANT of the prophets, ,
"Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom
and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you,
you believe in him and support him."
said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
3.81

This is what Islam is all about, it is a "Contract" or a "Covenant" with God

Both parties have agreed to be bound by their Contract, or Covenant

This is equally true with Satan or Iblees , it is a Covenant or Contractual Relationship. . .

. . .

Conclusion

Because it is a contractual or a covenant , the the word accurate to describe this relationship is a "Contravener"

ie. those who contravene their Contract or Covenant with Allah

It is not "Disbeliever", "Rejecter", "Denier", or even "Opposition". . .

I believe it is "Contravener". . .

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.
to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

contra'vener

? n

contravention

? n

Please see below. . .

Man_of_Faith

Okay. At least it is somewhere in between what you said.

Peace out

Zulf

Peace all,

I wonder if the words we say are more in disagreement than the ideas we are trying to convey.

con?tra?vene Show IPA
verb (used with object), con?tra?vened, con?tra?ven?ing.

to come or be in conflict with; go or act against; deny or oppose to contravene a statement.
to violate, infringe, or transgress to contravene the law.

Origin

1560?70; < Late Latin contrvenre, equivalent to Latin contr against + venre to come

Related forms

con?tra?ven?er, noun

contravene (kntrvin)

? vb

to come into conflict with or infringe (rules, laws, etc)
to dispute or contradict (a statement, proposition, etc)

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but to me it seems that br. muslims means that the discussed word means contravene which in turn means to break our covenant with the Creator. At the same time it seems to me that br. MoF says that the word at hand means oppose. Isn't it the system of the Creator that is being opposed? Isn't that the same as breaking the covenant? Am I wrong in thinking that the covenant would include the follow the entire system of the Creator (with sincere effort and intentions)? How can we understand the covenant and uphold it while we don't understand the system put in place by the Creator? I don't think it is possible, because we cannot know the Creator directly, but rather only through the signs in the Creation and through what is inspired to us. So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Let me know where I've misunderstood, if at all.

Best regards

Man_of_Faith

Peace Zulf,

The word that he just picked does mean virtually the same thing. It is just plagiarism and the word does not have any complicated meaning but a quite primitive one like oppose with no specification of what.

Anyway, please bring the topic to the other thread that muslims created and bring that garbage out of my thread. It is off-topic.

God bless you

Existential1

So isn't MoF and muslims then saying the same thing, in essence I mean???

Yes, they are. It is semantics, really.

peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace brothers,

Yes it is simply about semantics and a play with words. Now take the lame discussion to his thread and continue the circus there please. No bad intentions meant. It is off topic here.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

But it is a very general meaning of the word that exist in the recitation (quran) if we go back to the topic here and it could be to be in opposition to anyone/anything which you do not like. It is not a magical word as all other words and they have a meaning closely attached to the Earth.

Example

If you would steal my bike then I would oppose you (kafar). No "religion" involved, but in from a faith perspective your crime would be opposing God as well. You see where I am taking the word kafir?

To cloud/conceal is nearly right, but you more like suppress the one you "kafar" because you oppose it. You wish to stop it.

I hope you see where I am taking it and you can refer to my recent posts on the subject too.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I have another traditionally "magical" word to take a look at. Let us check al-hikmah which is traditionally regarded as wisdom in the scripture. It is just a minor glance at it and wisdom is still not misrepresenting the word in any way. But yet for someone who wants to read the recorded recitation as accurately as possible I suggest to take a look at some adjustments. I will demonstrate the full power of this station. Monotheist Translation is used as reference.

2129 ?Our Master, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the decree and judgment, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

The word is no more "magical" than the word preceding it, i.e. decree (k-t-b). The decree reflects the various rules to be followed while the judgment is how to apply that decree in a real-life situation. That is why I say that wisdom is not really a wrong choice of interpretation. But right should be right in my opinion, and this word is used for 'to judge' in a verb form. Let us take a look further

2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the decree! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the decree and judgment, and teach you what you did not know.

2188 And do not consume your money between you unjustly by bribing the decision makers judge so that you may consume a part of the money of other people sinfully while you know!

2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and warners, and He sent down with them the decree with the truth so that they may judge between the people in what they were disputing. But after receiving the clarity, the people disputed in it due to animosity between them. And God guided those who believed with His permission regarding what they disputed in of the truth. And God guides whoever He wishes to a straight path.

2231 And if you have divorced the women, and they have reached their required interim period, then either you remain together equitably, or part ways equitably. And do not reconcile with them so you can harm them out of animosity; whoever does so is doing wrong to his soul; and do not take the revelations of God as mockery. And remember the blessings of God upon you, and what was sent down to you of the decree and judgment, He warns you with it. And be aware of God and know that God is knowledgeable of all things.

2249 So when Saul set out with the soldiers, he said ?God will test you with a river, whoever drinks from it is not with me, and whoever does not taste from it except one scoop with his hand is with me.? They all drank from it, except for a few of them. So when he and those who believed with him crossed it, they said ?We have no power today against Goliath and his soldiers!? But the ones who understood that they would meet God said ?How many a time has a small group beaten a large group with the permission of God, and God is with the patient ones!?
2250 And when they came forth to Goliath and his soldiers, they said ?Our Master grant us patience, and make firm our foothold, and grant us victory over the opposing people.?
2251 So they defeated them with the permission of God, and David killed Goliath, and God gave him the kingship the authority and wisdom judgment and taught him what he wished. And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then the earth would have long been corrupted; but God has bestowed grace upon the worlds.

King is the standard rendition for al-malek, but I chose to generalize it into authority for fluency of the text. Same root is used in 14, usually rendered as Master or Lord, but with the definite noun form in 2251 I saw authority to be best in the context. Kingship is also a human term and I deem that God rather uses a descriptive term, i.e. authority. And diacritical marks I give little merit to. I think they were added later throughout the whole recitation to improve the ability to read this old language, and particularly in the way the author of the marks wanted. They can be traps to the full comprehension of the recitation if you rely too much on them.

Blue Please for one final time, consider the usage of k-f-r in this sentence and see that they wish victory against the opponents. Imagine yourselves in their place that they would wish for victory against their adversaries and not particularly against disbelievers. Never heard of anyone in a war situation to win a war against disbelievers except in sectarian contexts. "Please let us win against those who oppose (oppress) us" ought to be the viable choice to understand the phrase.

Here Monotheist Translation actually accurately translates (h-k-m)

1222 And when he reached his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers.

But Yusuf Ali failed to translate properly

When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge thus do We reward those who do right.

2269 He grants wisdom judgment to whom He chooses, and whoever is granted wisdom judgment has been given much good. Only those who possess intelligence will remember.

While wisdom can be quite synonymous with judgment it still risks of feeding some arrogance into the one who reads the passage. The most accurate definition is judgment for these occurrences and best kept that way.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the decree, from which there are law-giving (judgment) revelations; they are the essence of the decree; and others which are of a similitude. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow that which is of a similitude, seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say ?We have faith in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will heed except those who possess intelligence.

Ah well. My only real (personal) intention by delving into this word was to pinpoint its root's fundamental meaning which is just judge. I hope more than only me see the danger in translating and understanding it as the Wisdom with capital 'w' and it may give more coherence to certain verses, particularly those mentioned along with ketab (decree). Think of 'command and judgment'. There is a command from God to follow and to judge with it.

God bless you

Armanaziz

Peace,

No worries. I am just set to clarify things and not to get into fights or arguments. You can think it means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector, but then you will have to live with certain inconsistency, and which gives fuel to sectarians.

To oppose does not mean I would beat you to death or hurt you physically, but it can also be to start yelling at you and oppose you in mindset and to spread lies about your cause.

God bless you

As-salamu Alaika brother

From your last comment "...You can think it means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector..." it is obvious to me that I have not been able to adequately communicate what I was saying. I DO NOT think kafir means something leaning towards disbeliever or rejector - in fact between "disbeliever" and "opposer" my understanding of the meaning of the term is closer to the later. What I tried to say is that kafir means someone who actively hides / represses / suppresses his conscience and faith. Often this act of (faith) repression would lead to outward opposition with words and actions, but occassionally some people would just be a kafir inside and outwardly pretend to be believer (like indicated in Al Qur'an 541).

And since kufr is essentially an internal phenomenon - it is always inappropriate to call someone kafir because we do not know what is there in someone's heart. Even an apparent "Atheist" may not necessarily be a kafir inside because he may have understood the concept of "God" in his own personal way. Even self proclaimed atheists often use terms like .. "be good for goodnesses sake".. or.. "if you do this, how would you face yourself in the mirror.." etc. This means each one of us have something called "conscience" inside us. Some of us (like me) would submit to the "conscience" understanding this as the will of "God" while others may submit without believing in a "Personal God". But kafir would be the one who represses this consciense - rules it out as a mere illusion. They assume the life of the world is all there is - so they repress this "burden" of consciense and enjoy life through lie, cheat, steal, kill ... whatever. Per my understanding they are the ones who repress (faith), they are the kafir - irrespective of whether outwardly they claim to believe or oppose.

I hope I made my understanding clear. If not - I would just leave it there accepting this as a limitation in my communication ability. Meanwhile if you could refer me to specific verses that would force me to "live with certain inconsistency" based on my understanding - it would certainly be an interesting point of study for me and I would be much grateful.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Peace Arman,

Do not worry. If you are not ready to take in the rift away from the more implemented interpretation I am not opposing that as long as you would be a good fellow. And remember God's system is as much about doing good and acting good as it is about faith. I just want things to be right and that God is pleased.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Harmony be with thee friends,

Sujud - What does it really mean?

Now has come the time to look into the, traditionally near-"magical" intertwined in myths, word s - j - d ( &#1583 and we shall see that it does mean to respect or pay respect or pay homage. The Arabic word probably needs some good word to use to translate into English. And as we already know, for those who have studied this thread, is that Arabic words with two syllables only imply a simple action such as lock, put forth, decree or something like that, and the words keep the same meaning no matter context although modifiable using affixes. But what does sujud mean? Let us delve deeper into the phenomenon.

But I swear by God that it does not mean prostrate at all. It means much like pay respect and let us begin with the tribes of Israel and their approach at the gate

258 And We said ?Enter this town, and eat from it as you wish bountifully. And approach the passageway respectfully, and say ?Our load is removed,? so that your wrongdoings will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers.?

969 Have you seen the one who prohibits,
9610 A servant from making the contact?
9611 Have you seen if he was being guided,
9612 Or he ordered righteousness?
9613 Have you seen if he lied and turned away?
9614 Did he not know that God can see?
9615 Alas, if he does not cease, We will strike the forelock.
9616 A forelock which lies and errs.
9617 So let him call on his supporter.
9618 We will call on the guardians.
9619 So do not obey him, show respect and come near.

It is probably not the first thing one has in mind to go up to that man and prostrate to him and thus the word means to respect.

Let us take a look at the controversial prostration of the angels to Adam. But it is not prostrate that God wants them to do.

234 And We said to the angels ?Show respect to Adam,? so they showed respect except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the opponents.

Here you can see that I doubt m - s - j -d means any building at all much like brother Wakas does. The 'm' prefix determines that it is a person who does s - j -d just as in moslem is a doer of (a) s - l -m

2114 And who are more wicked than those who prevent the ones showing respect of God that His name be mentioned in them; and they seek their distortion? They will not be able to enter approach them except in fear; they will have humiliation in this world and in the Hereafter a painful retribution.

Red M = loosely "the one", (showing) respect s - j -d
Blue The shows of respect which masjed refers to
Green If we think traditionally, how can you have intense fear of entering a mosque if you are completely ignorant and disrespectful of God.

I am sure this is a slap in the face or worse on some people, but I find it absurd to even remotely think of s - j -d as prostrate. Ask brother Wakas what he thinks.

The translation above is not perfect as I have not yet come that far. It is as in my early research into ketaab where I thought it was message, although this time it is nearly exact.

Above I seem to fall for a logical fallacy with the word usually used for enter ( &#1604, however this word does not mean enter but it means approach. Check this example in this passage

1551 And inform them of the guests of Abraham.
1552 When they approached him, they said ?Peace.? He said ?We are worrisome of you.?
1553 They said ?Do not worry, we bring you good news of a knowledgeable son.?

In all the occurrences (yes I went through the whole recitation on d - kh - l) and saw that it cannot mean enter but it means an approaching motion.

2175 And We admitted had him approach Our mercy. He was of the good doers. (loosely translated/paraphrased)

Red It feels strange with an entering motion with this phrase.

3314 And if the enemy had entered approached them from all sides (threatened from all directions), and then they were asked to betray, they would do so with very little hesitation.

5125 When they entered approached him, they said ?Peace.? He said ?Peace to a people unknown!?
5126 Then he went to his family and brought a fat calf.
...
5129 His wife then approached came before in amazement. She slapped upon her face, and said ?A barren old woman!?

Red Once again it looks like I fall for a logical fallacy but the meaning here is slightly different than the approach used in the other sentences. Qbl is before someone, but approach is a description of a motion. Hope you get my point.

You will have to do with this investigation. It is in the early hours of dawn here now.

Back to sjd. This one turns quite convincing in my opinion. I went through all occurrences throughout the whole recitation (Qur'an). Translation not yet perfect.

177 If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will approach the ones who show respect as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.

Most importantly a masjed it not a building or structure at all but it is people much like muslim or mumin. And I have upcoming explanations for al-masjed al-haram which will come later. Those passages are almost cryptic, but I believe that the al-haram somehow will relate to something which hints at an explanation.

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins in a show of respect.?
17108 And they say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?

Here we have a "mindblower".

1821 And as such, We revealed their case so that they would know that the promise of God is true and that there is no doubt regarding the Hour. They argued among themselves regarding them, so they said ?Erect a monument for them!? Their Lord is fully aware of them, those who managed to win the argument said ?We will construct a temple be ones in show of respect over them.?

You see the logical fallacy with the traditional interpretation here.

1958 Those are the ones whom God has blessed from among the prophets from the progeny of Adam, and those We carried with Noah, and from the progeny of Abraham and Israel, and from whom We have guided and chosen. When the revelations of the Almighty are recited to them, they fall down respectfully, and in tears.

Imagine the reaction of these people without the pollution of the traditional understanding. Obviously they tip their heads in respect and tears come in their eyes and perhaps they went down on their knees if they were very emotional.

2070 So the magicians went down in respect. They said ?We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses.?

20116 And We said to the angels ?(Show) respect to Adam.? They all (showed) respect except for Satan, he refused.
20117 So We said ?O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship.?

2218 Did you not see that to God makes what is in the heavens and what is on the earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of the people, and many who have deserved the retribution show respect And whoever God disgraces, then none can honor him. God does what He pleases.

I would love to see a moon and the stars in a prostration movement. Of course everything is in respect to God.

2226 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary ?Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling (in) respect.

2560 And if they are told ?Show respect to the Almighty.? They say ?And what is the Almighty? Shall we show respect to what you order us?? And it increases their aversion.

2564 And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration respect and standing (?).

26219 And your movements among those who show respect.

3872 ?So when I have evolved him, and blow of My Spirit in him, then you shall show respect to him.?
3873 The angels showed respect, all of them,
3874 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the opponents.

Sorry. Running out of time here without finishing completely.

God bless you

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

I am sure about sujud still, but the word m - s - j - d is still within doubt for me. I was too quick at drawing conclusions, but it seems that it could mean a building or object. It must still be an object from where showing of respect is done however which the word s - j - d implies. And the word does not mean to prostrate.

I am sorry for giving wrong information. Suppose I have no more specific explanation for s - j - d with the prefix 'm' on it and its meaning even if I still draw the conclusion that it has similar effect on the word as m - uslim or m - umin. And al-masjed al-haraam still puzzles me as the root (haram) connotes on something that is forbidden/prohibited. But it appears that it is a proper noun for a place somewhere. You may perhaps call a site prohibited if it is restricted to a certain group of people. If it was holy or sacred the Arabic language would have used q - d - s (&#1587 in my opinion.

Hope that God will give a reasonable explanation at some point.

God bless you