The NONSENSE people make about Allah

Jafar

Facts

God has taught me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.
God has guided me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.
God has inspired me bla bla bla, therefore I am bla bla bla.

and any other similar statements

The issue

Can anyone prove or be certain that God taught, guided, and inspired them etc, or God is leading them astray ?

This is the reason why I've stopped or at least restrained myself from quoting.
In a sense that to prove X is true, Y also said X .
Where Y can be a deity, a mullah / authority or a relic such as holy book.
I called such attitude as 'hiding behind something' to support an opinion.

If X is true, then I believe X will survive any test that's being thrown at it.

Having said that, I'm fully aware that not everyone has the same attitude as me.

Thus I choose to ignore those who attack my opinion of X through arguments of because Y said it is true or isn't true.
I appreciate those who really stand by his/her own opinion, even when his/her opinion disprove of X.
Because that was the objective of discussion or debate.
To test the hypothesis of X

My 'enemy' on a debate is my friend on thinking and contemplation.

Thus the prove that he or she is guided or misguided on the topic of X. (and only on the topic of X)
Is by testing whether his/her opinion on X is true or false.

Salam / Peace

muslims

This is the reason why I've stopped or at least restrained myself from quoting.

I believe to claim that we are absolutely right is inappropriate, but to quote the word of Allah is okay because the objective is . .

To test the hypothesis of X

Where, X is the words of Allah (ie. human interpretation).

When Allah commands us to use our mind, God is asking us to test or disprove His words , every single words in the Quran . .

and this is the true essence of belief, ie. we have tested the words of Allah and it is not "blind faith", it is not conjecture. .

. . .

Thus the prove that he or she is guided or misguided on the topic of X. (and only on the topic of X)
Is by testing whether his/her opinion on X is true or false.

bravo

and during the process of testing the truth of any statement,
there will be some "cross-examination confrontation", using the true methodology and avoiding the fallacy . .
many people might not understand the process and blindly believe that it is inappropriate.

Critical thinking is an Islamic obligation, just as Allah ordered us to perform salat, zakat, fasting etc. and . . without critical thinking, there is no Islam.

"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason" (8.22)

Existential1

If no one can prove such claims , is it nonsense to declare it to the public ?

and what is the purpose of such claims ?

Peace everyone,

If everything shared verbally needed to be 100% fact-checked before saying anything, humans would be a lot less interactive. I believe the purpose of such claims are that people wish to either build a sense of community around their feeling, or they want to embellish themselves.

Either way, we (the general public) choose how much weight we want to give anyone who makes such statements. On an individual level, we can ignore them and proceed about our business (my usual strategy), or we can pay close attention and weigh their statements on their merits (which would take a tremendous amount of time).

Let us be kind to those who profess their connection to God, however sincere they may or may not be. For how we treat them will be judged.

peace

muslims

It is true on the level of "building a community", but it is not true on the level of determining the truth and finding the straight path. . .and which is, related to the main objective of this forum, "Discover True Islam"

If you are one of those people, then open your eyes, put on your thinking cap, and welcome to an open examination of the system of Submission/Islam which very few know about...;

Mission Statement

To provide accurate information/education regarding the message of the Qur'an. To promote the social, economic, and spiritual system as contained within the pages of the Quran. To assist in the networking of individuals and organizations dedicated to the service of monotheism.

We stand for social and legal justice. (Quran 45 (12.5%)

We stand for gender and race equality. (Quran 4913) (12.5%)

We stand for free thought and individualism. (Quran 680) (12.5%)

We stand for competition in righteousness and morality. (Quran 1690) (12.5%)

We stand for open debate and the providing of evidence. (Quran 1736) (12.5%)

We stand for freedom of religion, and freedom of expression. (Quran 1099) (12.5%)

We stand for honesty, kindness, and deterring from wrongdoing. (Quran 3110) (12.5%)

We stand for change through mutual consultation and representation. (Quran 423 (12.5%)

main page

p.s. however I got banned and my thread got locked whenever I did the above. laugh

Existential1

It is true on the level of "building a community", but it is not true on the level of determining the truth and finding the straight path. . .and which is, related to the main objective of this forum, "Discover True Islam"

p.s. however I got banned and my thread got locked whenever I did the above. laugh

From your original post, I assumed you were talking about in the general public. As for on this website, I would assume everyone is willing/able to speak freely and engage in thought-provoking critical discourse.

muslims

As for on this website, I would assume everyone is willing/able to speak freely and engage in thought-provoking critical discourse.

Then, they have to "be opened for cross-examination" as the methodology for determining the truth in any statement made by them. . . .

Cross-examined

cross-ex?am?ine (kr?sg-zmn, krs-)
v. cross-ex?am?ined, cross-ex?am?in?ing, cross-ex?am?ines
v.tr.

To question (a person) closely, especially with regard to answers or information given previously.
Law To question (a witness already examined by the opposing side).
v.intr.
To question a person closely.

cross-ex?ami?nation n.
cross-ex?amin?er n.

cross-examina`tion
n.

the act of cross-examining The attorney's cross-examination was particularly aggressive.
the state of being cross-examined The witness collapsed under cross-examination.

It is "discovery". . through "cross-examination" and "dialogue", and not make many become the audience to a preacher convinced of his wisdom, the audience someone on a pulpit.

99760 registered members.

Active members ?

10 members ?

That is my poll. Maybe most here do not much like people behind a pulpit, who are speaking "nonsense", "immune from cross-examination" and very "closed minded". Those who are using fallacy, ad hominem, boycott and do a poll against those who contested their contentions.

Jafar

I believe to claim that we are absolutely right is inappropriate, but to quote the word of Allah is okay because the objective is . .

It's ok to quote from anything..
What's not ok is trying to hide behind it.

It's like
X is true because my dad said X is true, if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

Where 'dad' can be anything from holy relics, mullah/imams to deities .
The discussion will then turned into an arena of cursing..

there will be some "cross-examination confrontation", using the true methodology and avoiding the fallacy . .
many people might not understand the process and blindly believe that it is inappropriate.

"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason" (8.22)

Many people here came from a culture where 'dogmatic idea' is a 'common and acceptable thing'.
Specifically, Judaism and Pseudo-Judaism culture / religion / tradition (including Islam, Christianity etc..)

When the tradition of Christianity is continuously improving (with their 'medieval dark ages' as the starting benchmark)
The tradition of Islam is continuously degrading (with their 'medieval golden age' as the starting benchmark)

Cross examination, debate, logical reasoning is a common place within 700-1000 AD Baghdad.

"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed"
-- Razi 854 ? 925

Even on something as I believe people in this forum living in the so-called "modern era" would (still) deemed as "heretical idea".

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say "Produce something like it"?"
-- Razi 854 ? 925

And nobody in 854-925 AD Baghdad stoned or murdered Razi nor he ever being apprehended, imprisoned or silenced, during his lifetime.

Salam / Peace

muslims

if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

rotfl

Crow

In my opinion ~

If someone makes the claim

God has guided me...
God has taught me...
God has inspired me to...

That's all well and good, and mash'Allah for his or her recognition of God's hand in our lives, but then that person has to be prepared to demonstrate that his guidance and newly-found knowledge and the actions he has been inspired to do are all consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an. If they cannot pass that simple test, then where exactly are these impulses originating? This isn't to say that one must justify every single action, but if they are claiming any of these they are casting themselves in a completely different light.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Good advice, Crow.

God bless you

muslims

That's all well and good, and mash'Allah for his or her recognition of God's hand in our lives, but then that person has to be prepared to demonstrate that his guidance and newly-found knowledge and the actions he has been inspired to do are all consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an. If they cannot pass that simple test, then where exactly are these impulses originating? This isn't to say that one must justify every single action, but if they are claiming any of these they are casting themselves in a completely different light.

Therefore, they will first need to prove that they do not deny Allah prohibitions . . .

As for those who deny Our revelations

This is what matter. . . obedience or disobedience?

and for example, they "do not ask question" beyond what is allowed from the Quran . . .

O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing. 5.101

once they asked questions beyond what is allowed from the Quran . .
we can conclude that they are the disbelievers (not a True Believer)

None can dispute about the ayatiAllahi but the Unbelievers.

and one could say that it is simple issue, but what is the effect ?

Who is Muhammad?

I believe he is the most righteous person ever lived . . . and a True Believer

And indeed, you (Muhammad)
are of a great moral character
(684)

But and even if he believe in Allah . . .

. . . recite shahada perfectfully
. . . knows and speaks well in arabic
. . . perform salah
. . . pray in mosque
. . . pray every night to Allah
. . . perform hajj
. . . fasting for his entire life
. . . dzikr.. and never say bad things about people
. . . pay zakat and sadaqah all his property in the cause of Allah
. . . go to jihad and sacrifice himself to Allah
. . . study carefully all the revelations...
. . . and... bla... bla... bla...
. . . you name it, as one of the most righteous person ever lived...

He will not be a Muslim if disobey one "simple prohibition" not to eat that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned

And DO NOT eat

of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends
that they should contend with you

and if you obey them

you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists <- ie. Muhammad is not a Muslim
(6121)

Because Allah says "DO NOT" ! !

and it doesn't matter small or big prohibitions...

He might be the best Believer, but if he "I'QTIQAD" (creed) to disobey Allah... he will not be a Muslim...

Simple issue, but it is about disobedience. .

So as Adam, simple issue, don't eat from that tree. . . but Adam disobey and eat from that tree.

It is a simple issue, but it is disobedience. . .since Adam, to Muhammad and still the same rule. . .

Therefore, if they disobey the "do not" prohibitions, we can conclude that they are the deniers
because they know about the prohibitions , it is their iktikad, and they intentionally disobey Allah. . .

Therefore, they are the deniers

But then, what is the rule about the deniers ?

Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative
We will entice them
from where they do not perceive
And I will lead them on
for My planning is formidable
6844-45

As for those who deny Our revelations
We will entice them
from where they do not know
7.182

Yes, Allah said "My planning is formidable", no one will know. . .

Therefore, it is back to the main issue. . . ie.

The issue

Can anyone prove or be certain that God taught, guided, and inspired them etc, or God is leading them astray ?

I believe if they cannot prove, then don't declare it in public. . .

If no one can prove such claims , is it nonsense to declare it to the public ?

and what is the purpose of such claims ?

ie. don't speak nonsense. . . no one know whether God is guiding or leading them astray.

use reasoning and critical thinking. . . rational thinking, not irrational thinking.

and from my experience, generally, only hypocrites used such claims . . .
to prove to the public and easily gain support from their audience , the fallacy of appeal to authority.

These are my views.

Zulf

Nice. I tend to agree.

We should practice to speak in a humble but confident way, without feeling that we absolutely have to win the argument, even when we believe we are right. Bad/childish manners, even when being right, may very well turn people away, and therefore have the opposite effect to the desired one, to inform or enlighten people. People of tend to forget this and start labeling, judging and dooming others as being wrong, mistaken, confused, sinister, lost and misguided. I've seen this an uncountable amount of times on this forum over the years. Yet we all (or most I assume) profess to seek the truth and be good. We better keep a good check on ourselves.

Peace and best regards
sun

Crow

We should practice to speak in a humble but confident way, without feeling that we absolutely have to win the argument, even when we believe we are right. Bad/childish manners, even when being right, may very well turn people away, and therefore have the opposite effect to the desired one, to inform or enlighten people. People of tend to forget this and start labeling, judging and dooming others as being wrong, mistaken, confused, sinister, lost and misguided. I've seen this an uncountable amount of times on this forum over the years. Yet we all (or most I assume) profess to seek the truth and be good. We better keep a good check on ourselves.

Very true- consider yourself (with all due respect) as a reflection Muhammad relating the Qur'an; he was the Messenger, not the policeman nor the judge and jury. Your responsibility is to give a truthful representation of Muslim belief, and leave it to the receiver to decide for him or herself if they will accept it- nothing more. If they have questions, surely answer them truthfully and as completely as you are able, but arguing and browbeating others in order to win an argument or prove a point is almost always counterproductive. If they choose to follow our path, that's wonderful- but if they don't, remember we are commanded to not condemn them or call them names for fear they may speak ill of God and his Word in retaliation.

Peace ~

Existential1

Very true- consider yourself (with all due respect) as a reflection Muhammad relating the Qur'an; he was the Messenger, not the policeman nor the judge and jury. Your responsibility is to give a truthful representation of Muslim belief, and leave it to the receiver to decide for him or herself if they will accept it- nothing more. If they have questions, surely answer them truthfully and as completely as you are able, but arguing and browbeating others in order to win an argument or prove a point is almost always counterproductive. If they choose to follow our path, that's wonderful- but if they don't, remember we are commanded to not condemn them or call them names for fear they may speak ill of God and his Word in retaliation.

Peace ~

Or any of the other prophets. They were modest and spoke softly though their words carried much weight, facts, and truths.

peace

muslims

I believe if we read the whole Quran, one the most important things is not being a hypocrite.
In fact we can say that it is almost the main theme of the Quran

ie. it is not for the Muslim to be a hypocrite with others
and it is not for the Muslim to be a hypocrite with Allah
(ie. taking responsibility on our promise made to Allah during our salah)

What is a hypocrite?
Basically, people who speak nonsense and cannot take responsibility for his own words and action.

Is a Muslim (an upright man) not about the ascertaining truth ?
I believe no . . it is not, and in fact it is the main criteria of a Believer
ie. to ascertain the truth and not rest on blind faith and irrational thinking

And from his clan was Abraham.
For he came to his Lord with a pure heart.
When he said to his father and his people
"What are you worshiping?"
"Is it fabricated gods, instead of God, that you want?"
"What do you say of the Lord of the worlds?"
Then he looked towards the stars.
And he said "I am ill!"
So they turned away from him and departed.
He then went to their gods and said
"Can you not eat?"
"What is the matter, you do not speak?"
So he then turned on them, striking with his hand.
Then they approached him outraged.
He said "Do you worship what you carve?"
"While God has created you, and all that you make!"
They said "Build for him a structure, and then throw him into its fire."
So they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.
3783-98

Abraham is an upright man and he ascertain the truth in their practices
there are many evidences from other Prophets, including Moses etc.
This is equally true with Muhammad

So do not obey those who deny.
They wish that you compromise,
so they too can compromise.
And do not obey every lowly swearer.
688-10

Therefore, I believe the ascertainment of truth, critical thinking
and be responsible for our words and action is the core of Islamic teachings.

However, we have to understand the rule and shall not involve ourselves with fallacy, emotions or ad hominem.
The focus must be on the "contention", not the "people" making the contention
For example. . .

if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

and this is the true essence of reasoning. . .

hawk99

What is a hypocrite?
Basically, people who speak nonsense and cannot take responsibility for his own words and action.

Peace,

What is a hypocrite?

Al-Munafiqoon (THE HYPOCRITES)

Total Verses 11
Revealed At MADINA

Verse001
Yusuf Ali When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger
of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites
are indeed liars.

Verse002

Pickthal They make their faith a pretext so that they may turn (men) from the way of Allah. Verily evil is
that which they are wont to do,

Verse003
Abdul Daryabadi That is, because they believed, and thereafter disbelieved, wherefore their hearts are sealed,
so that they understand not.

Verse004

When you see them, you may be impressed by their looks. And when they speak, you may listen to their
eloquence. They are like standing logs. They think that every call is intended against them. These are the real
enemies; beware of them. GOD condemns them; they have deviated.

Verse005

Yusuf Ali And when it is said to them "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn
aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

Verse006
Abdul Daryabadi Equal it is Unto them whether thou askest forgiveness for them or askest not forgiveness for
them, Allah shall forgive them not. Verily Allah guideth not a transgressing people.

Verse007

Pickthal They it is who say Spend not on behalf of those (who dwell) with Allah's messenger that they may
disperse (and go away from you); when Allah's are the treasures of the heavens and the earth; but the
hypocrites comprehend not. (misunderstand)

Verse008
Abdul Daryabadi They say surely, if we return to Madina the mightier shall drive out the meaner thence
whereas might is Allahs and His apostles and the believers; yet the hypocrites know not. (self serving)

Verse009
Abdul Daryabadi O ye who believe let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance
of Allah. And whosoever doth that then those! they are the losers.

Verse010
Abdul Daryabadi And expend of that wherewith We have provided you afore death cometh Unto one of you,
and he saith my Lord! wouldst Thou not defer me for a short term, so that I would give alms and become
of the righteous. (withhold alms/ stingy)

Verse011
Abdul Daryabadi And Allah deferreth not a soul when its term- hath come; and Allah is Aware of that which ye do.

God bless

peace

muslims

Most people would say something irrational to cover their nonsense; rather than giving the proof.

For me, only speak what you can prove with clear authority from the Quran, not what you cannot prove with from the Quran.

For example. .

Verse007

Pickthal They it is who say Spend not on behalf of those (who dwell) with Allah's messenger that they may
disperse (and go away from you); when Allah's are the treasures of the heavens and the earth; but the
hypocrites comprehend not. (misunderstand)

To simply claim that they understand, is not the prove that they understand.
One have to give reasons, justification and logical explanations.

One cannot simply say "Allah guided me and I comprehend, you are not. Allah will strike you with lightening and burn you in hell".
This is not reasoning, but it is "arrogance",
He claimed to know more than Allah, and for matters that Allah said "no one knows".

Allah said "no one knows"
He said "I know"
Therefore, he claimed to be smarter than Allah, knowing what Allah doesn't know.

Allah said "Prostrate to Adam"
Iblees said "I'm better than Adam"
Therefore, he claimed to be smarter than Allah, knowing what Allah doesn't know.

hawk99

Peace muslims,

I copied surah Al-Munafiqoon, and verse 7 to makes it clear (IMHO) that the hypocrites do not trust or have
faith that the path is ultimately beneficial to them, and that their position or viewpoint shows a lack of understanding.
The verse does not claim that the hypocrites claim to understand.

Your reply sounds personal and directed at someone, is this a continuation of the "who is a kafir" comment
by another member followed by the "contravene" thread? A thinly veiled personal attack? If so please
address that person. To use your expression rotfl

God bless

peace

muslims

Verse005

Yusuf Ali And when it is said to them "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn
aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

Okay, it is good that you notice. . . because I notice it too. laugh

God bless

peace

muslims

No offence and not specifically referring to anyone

but just to share my system and understanding for getting a clue of the hypocrites in Islam. . .

It is just a clue, but not necessarily correct because there are also other factors . . .
including some might not realize the rules from the Quran and they are too excited about Islam etc.

A. The following verse about avoiding the nonsense and the justification for this reminder of Allah . . .

It is He who has sent down to you, the Book;

in it are verses precise <- muslim's concern, practical aspects of life
they are the foundation of the Book

and others unspecific <- the hypocrite's concern, what is Allah, hell, paradise, angels etc, ie. the nonsense
As for those in whose hearts is deviation
they will follow that of it which is unspecific
seeking discord and seeking an interpretation

And no one knows its interpretation <- main premises, and it does not mean someone will know
except Allah

But those firm in knowledge say,
?We believe in it. All is from our Lord.?
And no one will be reminded (with this reminder) except those of understanding (ie. those with no nonsense).
3.7

Okay, why? Because Allah does not want to distress the society, and so that people can unite. . .

O you who have believed
DO NOT ASK about things which <- prohibition, if disobey ? refer here
if they are shown to you, will distress you <- no distress, so that society can unite, to simplify life
But if you ask about them while the Qur?an is being revealed
they will be shown to you <- people are free to do whatever is not in the Quran
Allah has pardoned that which is past
and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing. <- freedom! it is okay if it is wrong etc, Allah forgive
5.105

The disbelievers and hypocrites like to invent a falsehood against Allah, ie. claiming things that Allah says no one knows etc and make their own rules. . .

And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth,
?This is lawful
and this is unlawful,?
to invent falsehood about Allah .
Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.
16.116

. . .

B. Why there is the allegorical in the Quran ?

The Quran is a trap and for detecting the hypocrites and disbelievers. . .

It is a system invented by Allah to separate the Believers and the Hypocrites.

Over it are nineteen .
And We have not made the keepers of the Fire except angels.
And We have not made their number except as a trial for those who disbelieve

(1) that those who were given the Scripture
will be convinced

(2) and those who have believed
will increase in faith

(3) and those who were given the Scripture and the believers
will not doubt

(4) and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say,
?What does Allah intend by this as an example??
Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills.

And none knows <- main premises, and it does not mean someone will know
the soldiers of your Lord except Him.
And mention of the Fire is not but a reminder to humanity.
7430-31

C. It is a trap, and the whole system is to "make evident" so that the Believers are aware who might be the disbelievers and the hypocrites. . .

Do the people think
that they will be left to say,
?We believe?
and they will not be tried?

But We have certainly tried those before them
and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful
and He will surely make evident the liars

Or do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun Us?
Evil is what they judge
(292-4)

The hypocrites cannot hide themselves from this system. . . everything in Islam is an evidence based system.

People can get a clue as early they open their mouth. . . perfect system.