The NONSENSE people make about Allah

muslims

As for on this website, I would assume everyone is willing/able to speak freely and engage in thought-provoking critical discourse.

Then, they have to "be opened for cross-examination" as the methodology for determining the truth in any statement made by them. . . .

Cross-examined

cross-ex?am?ine (kr?sg-zmn, krs-)
v. cross-ex?am?ined, cross-ex?am?in?ing, cross-ex?am?ines
v.tr.

To question (a person) closely, especially with regard to answers or information given previously.
Law To question (a witness already examined by the opposing side).
v.intr.
To question a person closely.

cross-ex?ami?nation n.
cross-ex?amin?er n.

cross-examina`tion
n.

the act of cross-examining The attorney's cross-examination was particularly aggressive.
the state of being cross-examined The witness collapsed under cross-examination.

It is "discovery". . through "cross-examination" and "dialogue", and not make many become the audience to a preacher convinced of his wisdom, the audience someone on a pulpit.

99760 registered members.

Active members ?

10 members ?

That is my poll. Maybe most here do not much like people behind a pulpit, who are speaking "nonsense", "immune from cross-examination" and very "closed minded". Those who are using fallacy, ad hominem, boycott and do a poll against those who contested their contentions.

Jafar

I believe to claim that we are absolutely right is inappropriate, but to quote the word of Allah is okay because the objective is . .

It's ok to quote from anything..
What's not ok is trying to hide behind it.

It's like
X is true because my dad said X is true, if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

Where 'dad' can be anything from holy relics, mullah/imams to deities .
The discussion will then turned into an arena of cursing..

there will be some "cross-examination confrontation", using the true methodology and avoiding the fallacy . .
many people might not understand the process and blindly believe that it is inappropriate.

"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason" (8.22)

Many people here came from a culture where 'dogmatic idea' is a 'common and acceptable thing'.
Specifically, Judaism and Pseudo-Judaism culture / religion / tradition (including Islam, Christianity etc..)

When the tradition of Christianity is continuously improving (with their 'medieval dark ages' as the starting benchmark)
The tradition of Islam is continuously degrading (with their 'medieval golden age' as the starting benchmark)

Cross examination, debate, logical reasoning is a common place within 700-1000 AD Baghdad.

"If the people of this religion are asked about the proof for the soundness of their religion, they flare up, get angry and spill the blood of whoever confronts them with this question. They forbid rational speculation, and strive to kill their adversaries. This is why truth became thoroughly silenced and concealed"
-- Razi 854 ? 925

Even on something as I believe people in this forum living in the so-called "modern era" would (still) deemed as "heretical idea".

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say "Produce something like it"?"
-- Razi 854 ? 925

And nobody in 854-925 AD Baghdad stoned or murdered Razi nor he ever being apprehended, imprisoned or silenced, during his lifetime.

Salam / Peace

muslims

if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

rotfl

Crow

In my opinion ~

If someone makes the claim

God has guided me...
God has taught me...
God has inspired me to...

That's all well and good, and mash'Allah for his or her recognition of God's hand in our lives, but then that person has to be prepared to demonstrate that his guidance and newly-found knowledge and the actions he has been inspired to do are all consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an. If they cannot pass that simple test, then where exactly are these impulses originating? This isn't to say that one must justify every single action, but if they are claiming any of these they are casting themselves in a completely different light.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Good advice, Crow.

God bless you

muslims

That's all well and good, and mash'Allah for his or her recognition of God's hand in our lives, but then that person has to be prepared to demonstrate that his guidance and newly-found knowledge and the actions he has been inspired to do are all consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an. If they cannot pass that simple test, then where exactly are these impulses originating? This isn't to say that one must justify every single action, but if they are claiming any of these they are casting themselves in a completely different light.

Therefore, they will first need to prove that they do not deny Allah prohibitions . . .

As for those who deny Our revelations

This is what matter. . . obedience or disobedience?

and for example, they "do not ask question" beyond what is allowed from the Quran . . .

O you who have believed, do not ask about things which, if they are shown to you, will distress you. But if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be shown to you. Allah has pardoned that which is past; and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing. 5.101

once they asked questions beyond what is allowed from the Quran . .
we can conclude that they are the disbelievers (not a True Believer)

None can dispute about the ayatiAllahi but the Unbelievers.

and one could say that it is simple issue, but what is the effect ?

Who is Muhammad?

I believe he is the most righteous person ever lived . . . and a True Believer

And indeed, you (Muhammad)
are of a great moral character
(684)

But and even if he believe in Allah . . .

. . . recite shahada perfectfully
. . . knows and speaks well in arabic
. . . perform salah
. . . pray in mosque
. . . pray every night to Allah
. . . perform hajj
. . . fasting for his entire life
. . . dzikr.. and never say bad things about people
. . . pay zakat and sadaqah all his property in the cause of Allah
. . . go to jihad and sacrifice himself to Allah
. . . study carefully all the revelations...
. . . and... bla... bla... bla...
. . . you name it, as one of the most righteous person ever lived...

He will not be a Muslim if disobey one "simple prohibition" not to eat that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned

And DO NOT eat

of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned
and that is most surely a transgression
and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends
that they should contend with you

and if you obey them

you (Muhammad) shall most surely be polytheists <- ie. Muhammad is not a Muslim
(6121)

Because Allah says "DO NOT" ! !

and it doesn't matter small or big prohibitions...

He might be the best Believer, but if he "I'QTIQAD" (creed) to disobey Allah... he will not be a Muslim...

Simple issue, but it is about disobedience. .

So as Adam, simple issue, don't eat from that tree. . . but Adam disobey and eat from that tree.

It is a simple issue, but it is disobedience. . .since Adam, to Muhammad and still the same rule. . .

Therefore, if they disobey the "do not" prohibitions, we can conclude that they are the deniers
because they know about the prohibitions , it is their iktikad, and they intentionally disobey Allah. . .

Therefore, they are the deniers

But then, what is the rule about the deniers ?

Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative
We will entice them
from where they do not perceive
And I will lead them on
for My planning is formidable
6844-45

As for those who deny Our revelations
We will entice them
from where they do not know
7.182

Yes, Allah said "My planning is formidable", no one will know. . .

Therefore, it is back to the main issue. . . ie.

The issue

Can anyone prove or be certain that God taught, guided, and inspired them etc, or God is leading them astray ?

I believe if they cannot prove, then don't declare it in public. . .

If no one can prove such claims , is it nonsense to declare it to the public ?

and what is the purpose of such claims ?

ie. don't speak nonsense. . . no one know whether God is guiding or leading them astray.

use reasoning and critical thinking. . . rational thinking, not irrational thinking.

and from my experience, generally, only hypocrites used such claims . . .
to prove to the public and easily gain support from their audience , the fallacy of appeal to authority.

These are my views.

Zulf

Nice. I tend to agree.

We should practice to speak in a humble but confident way, without feeling that we absolutely have to win the argument, even when we believe we are right. Bad/childish manners, even when being right, may very well turn people away, and therefore have the opposite effect to the desired one, to inform or enlighten people. People of tend to forget this and start labeling, judging and dooming others as being wrong, mistaken, confused, sinister, lost and misguided. I've seen this an uncountable amount of times on this forum over the years. Yet we all (or most I assume) profess to seek the truth and be good. We better keep a good check on ourselves.

Peace and best regards
sun

Crow

We should practice to speak in a humble but confident way, without feeling that we absolutely have to win the argument, even when we believe we are right. Bad/childish manners, even when being right, may very well turn people away, and therefore have the opposite effect to the desired one, to inform or enlighten people. People of tend to forget this and start labeling, judging and dooming others as being wrong, mistaken, confused, sinister, lost and misguided. I've seen this an uncountable amount of times on this forum over the years. Yet we all (or most I assume) profess to seek the truth and be good. We better keep a good check on ourselves.

Very true- consider yourself (with all due respect) as a reflection Muhammad relating the Qur'an; he was the Messenger, not the policeman nor the judge and jury. Your responsibility is to give a truthful representation of Muslim belief, and leave it to the receiver to decide for him or herself if they will accept it- nothing more. If they have questions, surely answer them truthfully and as completely as you are able, but arguing and browbeating others in order to win an argument or prove a point is almost always counterproductive. If they choose to follow our path, that's wonderful- but if they don't, remember we are commanded to not condemn them or call them names for fear they may speak ill of God and his Word in retaliation.

Peace ~

Existential1

Very true- consider yourself (with all due respect) as a reflection Muhammad relating the Qur'an; he was the Messenger, not the policeman nor the judge and jury. Your responsibility is to give a truthful representation of Muslim belief, and leave it to the receiver to decide for him or herself if they will accept it- nothing more. If they have questions, surely answer them truthfully and as completely as you are able, but arguing and browbeating others in order to win an argument or prove a point is almost always counterproductive. If they choose to follow our path, that's wonderful- but if they don't, remember we are commanded to not condemn them or call them names for fear they may speak ill of God and his Word in retaliation.

Peace ~

Or any of the other prophets. They were modest and spoke softly though their words carried much weight, facts, and truths.

peace

muslims

I believe if we read the whole Quran, one the most important things is not being a hypocrite.
In fact we can say that it is almost the main theme of the Quran

ie. it is not for the Muslim to be a hypocrite with others
and it is not for the Muslim to be a hypocrite with Allah
(ie. taking responsibility on our promise made to Allah during our salah)

What is a hypocrite?
Basically, people who speak nonsense and cannot take responsibility for his own words and action.

Is a Muslim (an upright man) not about the ascertaining truth ?
I believe no . . it is not, and in fact it is the main criteria of a Believer
ie. to ascertain the truth and not rest on blind faith and irrational thinking

And from his clan was Abraham.
For he came to his Lord with a pure heart.
When he said to his father and his people
"What are you worshiping?"
"Is it fabricated gods, instead of God, that you want?"
"What do you say of the Lord of the worlds?"
Then he looked towards the stars.
And he said "I am ill!"
So they turned away from him and departed.
He then went to their gods and said
"Can you not eat?"
"What is the matter, you do not speak?"
So he then turned on them, striking with his hand.
Then they approached him outraged.
He said "Do you worship what you carve?"
"While God has created you, and all that you make!"
They said "Build for him a structure, and then throw him into its fire."
So they wanted to plan against him, but We made them the losers.
3783-98

Abraham is an upright man and he ascertain the truth in their practices
there are many evidences from other Prophets, including Moses etc.
This is equally true with Muhammad

So do not obey those who deny.
They wish that you compromise,
so they too can compromise.
And do not obey every lowly swearer.
688-10

Therefore, I believe the ascertainment of truth, critical thinking
and be responsible for our words and action is the core of Islamic teachings.

However, we have to understand the rule and shall not involve ourselves with fallacy, emotions or ad hominem.
The focus must be on the "contention", not the "people" making the contention
For example. . .

if you don't believe X is true, I'll tell my dad and my dad will come to you and put you to hell..

and this is the true essence of reasoning. . .

hawk99

What is a hypocrite?
Basically, people who speak nonsense and cannot take responsibility for his own words and action.

Peace,

What is a hypocrite?

Al-Munafiqoon (THE HYPOCRITES)

Total Verses 11
Revealed At MADINA

Verse001
Yusuf Ali When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say "We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger
of Allah." Yea, Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the Hypocrites
are indeed liars.

Verse002

Pickthal They make their faith a pretext so that they may turn (men) from the way of Allah. Verily evil is
that which they are wont to do,

Verse003
Abdul Daryabadi That is, because they believed, and thereafter disbelieved, wherefore their hearts are sealed,
so that they understand not.

Verse004

When you see them, you may be impressed by their looks. And when they speak, you may listen to their
eloquence. They are like standing logs. They think that every call is intended against them. These are the real
enemies; beware of them. GOD condemns them; they have deviated.

Verse005

Yusuf Ali And when it is said to them "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn
aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

Verse006
Abdul Daryabadi Equal it is Unto them whether thou askest forgiveness for them or askest not forgiveness for
them, Allah shall forgive them not. Verily Allah guideth not a transgressing people.

Verse007

Pickthal They it is who say Spend not on behalf of those (who dwell) with Allah's messenger that they may
disperse (and go away from you); when Allah's are the treasures of the heavens and the earth; but the
hypocrites comprehend not. (misunderstand)

Verse008
Abdul Daryabadi They say surely, if we return to Madina the mightier shall drive out the meaner thence
whereas might is Allahs and His apostles and the believers; yet the hypocrites know not. (self serving)

Verse009
Abdul Daryabadi O ye who believe let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance
of Allah. And whosoever doth that then those! they are the losers.

Verse010
Abdul Daryabadi And expend of that wherewith We have provided you afore death cometh Unto one of you,
and he saith my Lord! wouldst Thou not defer me for a short term, so that I would give alms and become
of the righteous. (withhold alms/ stingy)

Verse011
Abdul Daryabadi And Allah deferreth not a soul when its term- hath come; and Allah is Aware of that which ye do.

God bless

peace

muslims

Most people would say something irrational to cover their nonsense; rather than giving the proof.

For me, only speak what you can prove with clear authority from the Quran, not what you cannot prove with from the Quran.

For example. .

Verse007

Pickthal They it is who say Spend not on behalf of those (who dwell) with Allah's messenger that they may
disperse (and go away from you); when Allah's are the treasures of the heavens and the earth; but the
hypocrites comprehend not. (misunderstand)

To simply claim that they understand, is not the prove that they understand.
One have to give reasons, justification and logical explanations.

One cannot simply say "Allah guided me and I comprehend, you are not. Allah will strike you with lightening and burn you in hell".
This is not reasoning, but it is "arrogance",
He claimed to know more than Allah, and for matters that Allah said "no one knows".

Allah said "no one knows"
He said "I know"
Therefore, he claimed to be smarter than Allah, knowing what Allah doesn't know.

Allah said "Prostrate to Adam"
Iblees said "I'm better than Adam"
Therefore, he claimed to be smarter than Allah, knowing what Allah doesn't know.

hawk99

Peace muslims,

I copied surah Al-Munafiqoon, and verse 7 to makes it clear (IMHO) that the hypocrites do not trust or have
faith that the path is ultimately beneficial to them, and that their position or viewpoint shows a lack of understanding.
The verse does not claim that the hypocrites claim to understand.

Your reply sounds personal and directed at someone, is this a continuation of the "who is a kafir" comment
by another member followed by the "contravene" thread? A thinly veiled personal attack? If so please
address that person. To use your expression rotfl

God bless

peace

muslims

Verse005

Yusuf Ali And when it is said to them "Come, the Messenger of Allah will pray for your forgiveness", they turn
aside their heads, and thou wouldst see them turning away their faces in arrogance.

Okay, it is good that you notice. . . because I notice it too. laugh

God bless

peace

muslims

No offence and not specifically referring to anyone

but just to share my system and understanding for getting a clue of the hypocrites in Islam. . .

It is just a clue, but not necessarily correct because there are also other factors . . .
including some might not realize the rules from the Quran and they are too excited about Islam etc.

A. The following verse about avoiding the nonsense and the justification for this reminder of Allah . . .

It is He who has sent down to you, the Book;

in it are verses precise <- muslim's concern, practical aspects of life
they are the foundation of the Book

and others unspecific <- the hypocrite's concern, what is Allah, hell, paradise, angels etc, ie. the nonsense
As for those in whose hearts is deviation
they will follow that of it which is unspecific
seeking discord and seeking an interpretation

And no one knows its interpretation <- main premises, and it does not mean someone will know
except Allah

But those firm in knowledge say,
?We believe in it. All is from our Lord.?
And no one will be reminded (with this reminder) except those of understanding (ie. those with no nonsense).
3.7

Okay, why? Because Allah does not want to distress the society, and so that people can unite. . .

O you who have believed
DO NOT ASK about things which <- prohibition, if disobey ? refer here
if they are shown to you, will distress you <- no distress, so that society can unite, to simplify life
But if you ask about them while the Qur?an is being revealed
they will be shown to you <- people are free to do whatever is not in the Quran
Allah has pardoned that which is past
and Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing. <- freedom! it is okay if it is wrong etc, Allah forgive
5.105

The disbelievers and hypocrites like to invent a falsehood against Allah, ie. claiming things that Allah says no one knows etc and make their own rules. . .

And do not say about what your tongues assert of untruth,
?This is lawful
and this is unlawful,?
to invent falsehood about Allah .
Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed.
16.116

. . .

B. Why there is the allegorical in the Quran ?

The Quran is a trap and for detecting the hypocrites and disbelievers. . .

It is a system invented by Allah to separate the Believers and the Hypocrites.

Over it are nineteen .
And We have not made the keepers of the Fire except angels.
And We have not made their number except as a trial for those who disbelieve

(1) that those who were given the Scripture
will be convinced

(2) and those who have believed
will increase in faith

(3) and those who were given the Scripture and the believers
will not doubt

(4) and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say,
?What does Allah intend by this as an example??
Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills.

And none knows <- main premises, and it does not mean someone will know
the soldiers of your Lord except Him.
And mention of the Fire is not but a reminder to humanity.
7430-31

C. It is a trap, and the whole system is to "make evident" so that the Believers are aware who might be the disbelievers and the hypocrites. . .

Do the people think
that they will be left to say,
?We believe?
and they will not be tried?

But We have certainly tried those before them
and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful
and He will surely make evident the liars

Or do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun Us?
Evil is what they judge
(292-4)

The hypocrites cannot hide themselves from this system. . . everything in Islam is an evidence based system.

People can get a clue as early they open their mouth. . . perfect system.

Zulf

I always felt the the quran is some sort of powerful "dynamite" that enhances you in whatever direction you go.
If your direction in life has a quality of sincere goodness, then your interpretation, expression and application of the quran will be accordingly. If your direction in life on the other hand has the quality of cheating, betrayal, exploitation, lying etc then your interpretation of the quran will be of the worst kind... interpreting everything in a way that ends up being oppressive, difficult, unjust, cruel and insane.
Therefore, the quran is not to be taken lightly... it is, so to say, powerful stuff, and needs to be handled carefully.. with a sincere and good heart. Whatever dirt you have in your character, will potentially become magnified when you interact with the quran.

Peace

muslims

I always felt the the quran is some sort of powerful "dynamite" that enhances you in whatever direction you go.

I believe the Quran must have the embedded system to help the Believers identify the Hypocrites. . .
That's why there is the allegorical in the Quran. . .
as a system to separate the Believers and the Hypocrites, "the nonsense". . .

Allah would not leave the believers in that you are in
until He separates the evil from the good.
3.179

and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful
and He will surely make evident the liars
Or do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun Us?
(292-4) (above)

and this nonsense what hindered the Muslim Ummah from progress in real worlds. . . they live in illusion and irrational thinking.
discussing things that Allah says "no one knows its interpretation"

however and from this system, people can start identify the Believers and build their community or group. . .
they can start makes plan and try to progress in real life . . .
maybe this what "the nonsense" elements in the Quran is for to the Believers. . . this is the "key"

hawk99

I always felt the the quran is some sort of powerful "dynamite" that enhances you in whatever direction you go.
If your direction in life has a quality of sincere goodness, then your interpretation, expression and application of the quran will be accordingly. If your direction in life on the other hand has the quality of cheating, betrayal, exploitation, lying etc then your interpretation of the quran will be of the worst kind... interpreting everything in a way that ends up being oppressive, difficult, unjust, cruel and insane.
Therefore, the quran is not to be taken lightly... it is, so to say, powerful stuff, and needs to be handled carefully.. with a sincere and good heart. Whatever dirt you have in your character, will potentially become magnified when you interact with the quran.

Peace

Peace Man of Faith,

Thanks for the addition, as you say, " Interpretation of the Quran through wishful
thinking" is an awesome quality of Quran Kareem and that is what I call "the mirror
effect" what I mean by this is that the Quran exposes our true convictions.

After the setback, He sent down upon you peaceful slumber that pacified
some of you. Others among you were selfishly concerned about themselves.
They harbored thoughts about GOD that were not right? the same thoughts
they had harbored during the days of ignorance. Thus, they said, "Is anything
up to us?" Say, "Everything is up to GOD." They concealed inside themselves
what they did not reveal to you. They said, "If it was up to us, none of us would
have been killed in this battle." Say, "Had you stayed in your homes, those
destined to be killed would have crawled into their death beds." GOD thus puts
you to the test to bring out your true convictions, and to test what is in your hearts.
GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.

The inheritly violent person will "see" the Quran as a warriors manual, the confused
person will be confused by it, the non-believer will see it as nonsense, the humble
person will be made content by it. The person in search of salvation can find wisdom
in its ayats. The tyrant will use it to further his agenda, the believer wll be brought
to tears and will fall prostrate.
What a book!

All praise to God lord of the Universe

peace

Peace Zulf,

We agree

God bless

peace

muslims

what I mean by this is that the Quran exposes our true convictions.

After the setback, He sent down upon you peaceful slumber that pacified
some of you. Others among you were selfishly concerned about themselves.
They harbored thoughts about GOD that were not right? the same thoughts
they had harbored during the days of ignorance. Thus, they said, "Is anything
up to us?" Say, "Everything is up to GOD." They concealed inside themselves
what they did not reveal to you. They said, "If it was up to us, none of us would
have been killed in this battle." Say, "Had you stayed in your homes, those
destined to be killed would have crawled into their death beds." GOD thus puts
you to the test to bring out your true convictions, and to test what is in your hearts.
GOD is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.

How can you understand that verse is about the Quran ? confused

There is nothing in that verse that speak about the Quran

God is speaking about the Battle of Uhud as the test to bring out their true convictions and what is in their hearts, it is not about the Quran. . . laugh

Whatever dirt you have in your character, will potentially become magnified when you interact with the quran.

Agreed.

hawk99

How can you understand that verse is about the Quran ? confused

There is nothing in that verse that speak about the Quran

God is speaking about the Battle of Uhud as the test to bring out their true convictions and what is in their hearts, it is not about the Quran. . . laugh

Agreed.

How can you not rotfl

Have a blessed Ramadan

peace