Free Will / Free Choice... Is the Creator all knowledgeable?
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Peace,
I think you presume too much. I know about GTA4 and I have played it until the end. I does not really shine of righteousness though.
What I said was that you have made a choice to do something, but God had decided that you will die tomorrow morning. It means that God had already willed that and it would be like a trigger parameter that was already programmed. And God can have willed that you died exactly on August 14, 2014 at 331am and then you will die exactly at that moment. But like we said, God can adjust every plan in real time to suit your performance. Like games where the difficulty setting is changed depending on how good/bad you play, see? And role playing games are good examples as allegories. I had a thread called the game allegory some time ago where I used this kind of allegorical ideas to explain our faith and by often using Star Wars's the force to be God and the fight between good and evil.
It is very conjectural to talk about this because we do not really know how advanced God's programming is so it is beyond our comprehension. But I would suppose that to God everything "feels" like in real time despite already anticipated every possible move because God is in perfect control and despite not knowing what course of action that you will take then God still has plans for you by the moment a change in the course of action takes place. In the end God has a plan for you no matter if you one moment is the best and faithful servant and the other you turn mischievous so God is never unprepared. Because God is omni-present this is easy for God to do.
But no. I do not think God knows the outcome of this test because it is like in the phrase you took as offensive. But God cannot be fooled because while God has made our egos then God is in control and because a creator has perfect control of time as we know it then he could just freeze his view of the game world and without delay and just make adjustments. That was just allegorically because God can do that without any time span and it was just a show of how much we are within God's grasp. And God certainly reads our minds, all those billions of people at the same time. Is not our Master immensely powerful?
So if you test someone that is because you do not know how someone will perform.
God bless you
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Peace sister.
Are you serious with that statement?
Or, did you just joking?
Peace javalatte,
No no it was a joke. Sarcasm is pretty hard to depict online \ of course I don't consider what I said above to be serious at all - take it as sarcasm at the time of the convo, I do not believe my creator is playing a game with me )
peace
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Sushi, what you ask is like a blind man asking how does green feel to the touch. For him to the touch green means nothing, because it is green only to the extent that can be seen. If it cannot be seen there is no green. It is not that God knows the future, it is that He makes the future and the past and the present an He does it now, always. I cannot recall the aya from the Qur'an, but there is such an aya or ayas. Past, present future, is your past, present, future, it is not God's past, present, future.
Your point whether you should bother to do anything because God knows the future, to you means nothing, it is not that He knows your future, He makes you now, always, and so does He with everything that exists. If God ceased to make it nothing would exist everything would cease to exist and also that is Qur'an. Nothing, not a thing, not a doing can exist without God procuring it, plotting and making it, not even el little itch in your body.
Of course he knows because it is He who does. We do nothing, we are a semblance. But in that semblance, God tells us, by His own word and by the fitra He has made us into, that we should be righteous, and loyal, and trust Him, etc. etc. so no matter what God knows or does, we do know what we should do or not do, because that we do know. It is an order or rather it is the set of conditions that He attaches to our existence. It is not a matter of whether it is for our profit or not although we are also told that If we follow our fitra and Gods revelation we will be satisfied souls, in peace and rest, in His grace. If we do not, we will be burning fuel. Those are the parameters of our beings.
I think that all that could be had from the Qur'an, it is there and the Qur'an says you do this and that for your own sake, and you avoid this and that for your own sake. So either you trust God or you do not.
Whatever, according to you, God knows, you do not know and God does not seem to want us to know. Why should He bother with having us know something that He is making all the time. Because He is making EVRYTHING all the time. Nothing just occurs or passes, He makes it. He is making us every single second. He has cared to make people conscious or capable of consciousness, ones more than others, and in His creation of us He instills the feeling of free choice, so we act according to free choice. He can withdraw that feeling and capability any time. If He did, we would cease to have free will. In fact He does so with some people, like it happens with mental or emotional illness where people act compulsively.
We are nothing but His Mercy. You say you know, and I do not doubt it, but the main objection to your premises stands, even if it does not help you that I state it. There is no future, there is no present, there is not past absolutely. We live in such projection, God does not, in fact it is God that makes that projection for us, that sets us in that projection. You say God is not tied to that present, future, past, you acknowledge it, you say, but then reason as if you didn't. It is not a matter of God knowing the future it is a matter that God makes the future, God even makes in us, makes in matter the inability to go beyond that set of parameters.
Summing up, we are blind and therefore we are unable to touch green.
Salaam
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sushi, salaam,
I do not hink you will ever get anywhere on the premises you are. You are a prisonner of time and you put God within that prison which is exclusively yours. It is your problem not God's problem, not even my problem not even the problem of everybody. You are getting in a jungle of your own imagination, just because you have seen some jungle, may be or because you have seen some films where there appears a jungle. Your jungles are not God. Time is need for our existence, for our material existence.
And here, I will serve you,
Yes we are all predestined, ALL, all beings, all things, absolutely predistined. We are thrown in a dream of God, where time exists an the creatures in the dream live in place called "time", but they are predestined to end as soon as the dream stops.
That is what the Qur'an keeps repeating to us, WE, EVERYTHING, RETURNS TO GOD. To God leads destiny and to God is the return. Yes that is our destiny, back to God, to the essence of God. We will cease to exist in a dream and reabsorb into reality into God.
In our existence as a dream of God, we are in time, in dream, in irreality, so we have things as time, space. God does not, and he manages his dreams as He sees fit. If He changes his dreams you will know or not, may be there have been ten million sushi or there are ten milion shusi with nhundreds of millions of years in millions and zillions of divine dreams. You are just caught in one.
Do you want to understand what is in those other zillions of dreams? You can't. You can attempt to imagine, you cannot know.
You cannot get an answer to your question because your question is wrong.
God gives us knowledge but does not give us power. You do not have the power, therefore you cannot conceive, understand what power can do.
But the good news is no matter what, we are safe. Only God exist, therefore we exist, therefore we cannot not exist. We are made of the overflowing of Divine rahma, and we will return to our Source.
Salaam
sun bravo sun
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No no it was a joke.
Oh, ok. )
Yes we are all predestined, ALL, all beings, all things, absolutely predistined.
I agree that God's creations are predestined, because that quite make sense to me.
We are thrown in a dream of God,
In our existence as a dream of God,
Hmmm.... -\
Sister huruf, do you think we are God's dream? But why?
sun bravo sun
;D
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Hmmm.... -\
Sister huruf, do you think we are God's dream? But why?
;D
Obviously I do not know whether God has anything we might call a dream. I am just trying to put an image in human terms of what might be our existence with respect to the existence of God and as yet I have not come up with a better allegory or whate it might be called of that relation than the relation we have to our own dreams.
A dream is not us, but does not exist out of us. Dreams are real, but they are not something with true existence. We exist, we dream. Without us dreams are not, but they aren't ourselves. It is an "emanation" of us.
When I say we are a dream of God I try to convey that relation of nonselfexistence to self-existence.
I might have clarified a little but it didn't occur to me. Thanks for asking.
Salaam
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Peace,
I think these things about predestination is beyond our comprehension and we should not conjecture too much about how it works. The reality for us is that we live lives where our actions and behavior count and that is important because it is how we perceive things to be. It needs to logically tell that we have free will because otherwise why would God run a test?
God bless you
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Sushi, what you ask is like a blind man asking how does green feel to the touch. For him to the touch green means nothing, because it is green only to the extent that can be seen. If it cannot be seen there is no green. It is not that God knows the future, it is that He makes the future and the past and the present an He does it now, always. I cannot recall the aya from the Qur'an, but there is such an aya or ayas. Past, present future, is your past, present, future, it is not God's past, present, future.
Your point whether you should bother to do anything because God knows the future, to you means nothing, it is not that He knows your future, He makes you now, always, and so does He with everything that exists. If God ceased to make it nothing would exist everything would cease to exist and also that is Qur'an. Nothing, not a thing, not a doing can exist without God procuring it, plotting and making it, not even el little itch in your body.
Of course he knows because it is He who does. We do nothing, we are a semblance. But in that semblance, God tells us, by His own word and by the fitra He has made us into, that we should be righteous, and loyal, and trust Him, etc. etc. so no matter what God knows or does, we do know what we should do or not do, because that we do know. It is an order or rather it is the set of conditions that He attaches to our existence. It is not a matter of whether it is for our profit or not although we are also told that If we follow our fitra and Gods revelation we will be satisfied souls, in peace and rest, in His grace. If we do not, we will be burning fuel. Those are the parameters of our beings.
I think that all that could be had from the Qur'an, it is there and the Qur'an says you do this and that for your own sake, and you avoid this and that for your own sake. So either you trust God or you do not.
Whatever, according to you, God knows, you do not know and God does not seem to want us to know. Why should He bother with having us know something that He is making all the time. Because He is making EVRYTHING all the time. Nothing just occurs or passes, He makes it. He is making us every single second. He has cared to make people conscious or capable of consciousness, ones more than others, and in His creation of us He instills the feeling of free choice, so we act according to free choice. He can withdraw that feeling and capability any time. If He did, we would cease to have free will. In fact He does so with some people, like it happens with mental or emotional illness where people act compulsively.
We are nothing but His Mercy. You say you know, and I do not doubt it, but the main objection to your premises stands, even if it does not help you that I state it. There is no future, there is no present, there is not past absolutely. We live in such projection, God does not, in fact it is God that makes that projection for us, that sets us in that projection. You say God is not tied to that present, future, past, you acknowledge it, you say, but then reason as if you didn't. It is not a matter of God knowing the future it is a matter that God makes the future, God even makes in us, makes in matter the inability to go beyond that set of parameters.
Summing up, we are blind and therefore we are unable to touch green.
Salaam
Absolutely brilliant write-up and I am delighted to find someone speak my heart so eloquently!
May Allah increase you in wisdom.Best regards,
Arman -
The MAIN question, is if the creator is ALL knowing, then how comes it does not know which path we will take? If it knows all possible branches/paths and all outcomes, but doesn't know what path we will take, then how is it all knowing? Of course, I'm not saying it isn't.. But like ayman said, Moses was asked by God about what the cane was for? God obviously knows what it is but (guessing here) didn't know what Moses would do with it?
Any help would be appreciated here.
Salaam,
Red Here is the problem.
I understood in a different way.209
And has the story of Musa reached you?
2010
When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance."
2011
And when he came to it, he was called, O Musa
Please note that there is third party who is giving us information about Musa. This is not a direct reported speech.
2012
Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
2013
And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed
2014
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.
This is the speech of Allah with Musa, referring Himself as "I" never "We".
2015
Indeed, the Hour is coming - I almost conceal it - so that every soul may be recompensed according to that for which it strives.
2016
So do not let one avert you from it who does not believe in it and follows his desire, for you would perish.
2017
And what is that in your right hand, O Musa?
I believe that this was not asked by Allah, because in the following aayaat it is cleared inshaAllah.
2018
He said, "It is my staff; I lean upon it, and I bring down leaves for my sheep and I have therein other uses."
2019
Said, "Throw it down, O Musa."
2020
So he threw it down, and thereupon it was a snake, moving swiftly.
2021
Said, "Seize it and fear not; We will return it to its former condition."
One from "We" said that all not Allah. If you are confused with who are "We" 1964 may help you understand, inshaAllah.
Allah is all Knowledgeable, He does not need to ask Musa.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
2014
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.
This is the speech of Allah with Musa, referring Himself as "I" never "We".
I like the verse that shows God's speech, where the word "I" is used by God to refer Himself.
Peace.
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Salaam,
Red Here is the problem.
I understood in a different way.209
And has the story of Musa reached you?
2010
When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance."
2011
And when he came to it, he was called, O Musa
Please note that there is third party who is giving us information about Musa. This is not a direct reported speech.
2012
Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
2013
And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed
2014
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.
This is the speech of Allah with Musa, referring Himself as "I" never "We".
2015
Indeed, the Hour is coming - I almost conceal it - so that every soul may be recompensed according to that for which it strives.
2016
So do not let one avert you from it who does not believe in it and follows his desire, for you would perish.
2017
And what is that in your right hand, O Musa?
I believe that this was not asked by Allah, because in the following aayaat it is cleared inshaAllah.
2018
He said, "It is my staff; I lean upon it, and I bring down leaves for my sheep and I have therein other uses."
2019
Said, "Throw it down, O Musa."
2020
So he threw it down, and thereupon it was a snake, moving swiftly.
2021
Said, "Seize it and fear not; We will return it to its former condition."
One from "We" said that all not Allah. If you are confused with who are "We" 1964 may help you understand, inshaAllah.
Allah is all Knowledgeable, He does not need to ask Musa.
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhanPeace mmkhan,
I don't quite understand how you resorted to this conversation being anything to do with anyone other than Allah. Even though the "we" is used at the end, there are many times that "we" has been used just to denote Allah. As you might know, the "we" in Arabic can be used to denote an elevated status, it denotes more "royalty" I.e. makes the subject seem much higher than those spoken about in the context.
Plus, the verse right before it does imply God is talking. Even at the beginning of chapter 20, it says "we sent down the Qur'an....." So God didn't send down the Quran?... I'm sorry but I have to reject this unless there is more evidence. The pointer to chapter 19 doesn't really matter as the context is different. "We" is referred to different entities in the quran, but it is clear that in chapter 20, that entity is Allah...
Peace peace
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Peace,
I think you presume too much. I know about GTA4 and I have played it until the end. I does not really shine of righteousness though.
What I said was that you have made a choice to do something, but God had decided that you will die tomorrow morning. It means that God had already willed that and it would be like a trigger parameter that was already programmed. And God can have willed that you died exactly on August 14, 2014 at 331am and then you will die exactly at that moment. But like we said, God can adjust every plan in real time to suit your performance. Like games where the difficulty setting is changed depending on how good/bad you play, see? And role playing games are good examples as allegories. I had a thread called the game allegory some time ago where I used this kind of allegorical ideas to explain our faith and by often using Star Wars's the force to be God and the fight between good and evil.
It is very conjectural to talk about this because we do not really know how advanced God's programming is so it is beyond our comprehension. But I would suppose that to God everything "feels" like in real time despite already anticipated every possible move because God is in perfect control and despite not knowing what course of action that you will take then God still has plans for you by the moment a change in the course of action takes place. In the end God has a plan for you no matter if you one moment is the best and faithful servant and the other you turn mischievous so God is never unprepared. Because God is omni-present this is easy for God to do.
But no. I do not think God knows the outcome of this test because it is like in the phrase you took as offensive. But God cannot be fooled because while God has made our egos then God is in control and because a creator has perfect control of time as we know it then he could just freeze his view of the game world and without delay and just make adjustments. That was just allegorically because God can do that without any time span and it was just a show of how much we are within God's grasp. And God certainly reads our minds, all those billions of people at the same time. Is not our Master immensely powerful?
So if you test someone that is because you do not know how someone will perform.
God bless you
Peace mof,
Sorry I assumed. Many people on this site are not acquainted with console games, especially Rockstar's games...
Anyway, I was with you up until you said you don't think God knows the outcome of the test. I'm in disagreement. I think God does know the outcome of the test, or in fact the outcome of every path we take. I also believe God knows about every possible path available and can perhaps prevent a certain path from being taken, however I do not believe God knows which path you will take (but it knows the path you are currently taking). There is no planning necessary based on what path someone takes, as the path can be changed by the person anytime.
However, I do agree on the part that says "you test someone because you don't know how well they perform". In other words, you don't know which one of the outcomes that you know about will they reach...
Peace peace
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Peace,
So you think God knows aye?
Well God sure knows a lot so that is a matter near conjecture as a topic, but one thing is sure and that is we cannot go around with that image in our minds. It is dangerous because it may invite to not actively take part.
God bless you
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If we don't have free-wills, we are all doing God's commands now. Simple logic about free-wills.
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Peace mmkhan,
I don't quite understand how you resorted to this conversation being anything to do with anyone other than Allah. Even though the "we" is used at the end, there are many times that "we" has been used just to denote Allah. As you might know, the "we" in Arabic can be used to denote an elevated status, it denotes more "royalty" I.e. makes the subject seem much higher than those spoken about in the context.
Peace Sushi,
I quoted a quote from your message about Musa, so I just wanted to clarify that Musa was not asked by Allah about his cane.
Red I strongly believe that "we" is never used for Allah in alQuraan/alKitaab. And if you understand this part, then you will know how Allah is all knowledgeable, inshaAllah.Plus, the verse right before it does imply God is talking. Even at the beginning of chapter 20, it says "we sent down the Qur'an....." So God didn't send down the Quran?... I'm sorry but I have to reject this unless there is more evidence.
Yes, the workers who work on behalf of Allah send down alQuraan.
I respect your views. But for example we will take a word "qaala" is used in alQuraan/alKitaab, but used for normal human beings or other creation but not for Allah. There must be some difference to make it out, so here is the difference inshaAllah.23112
http//www.ahadees.com/images/quran/arabic/23_112.gif
Said, "How long did you remain on earth in number of years?"Please note the difference in text of word . Wherever this word is used, it is used for others unlike in the above quoted aayat which is used for Allah.
In some of the copies of alQuraan/alKitaab, the difference of qaala is not clearly shown. If so, you can take a look at the following links.
Link # 1
Link # 2The pointer to chapter 19 doesn't really matter as the context is different. "We" is referred to different entities in the quran, but it is clear that in chapter 20, that entity is Allah...
Peace peace
InshaAllah, I will write down on "We" and "I" with the permission of my Lord, Allah. Then this matter will be clarified, inshaAllah.
May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan -
The workers who work on behalf of Allah?
Do you know who are they, brother? Do you mean the angels?
Peace.
Peace,
There are "WE" who were given authority by Allah. And they even rule on angels )
Like in 1761 "And when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam,"..."May Allah bless you pr
mmKhan