Khatem or Seal meanings.
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Salaam Oben,
an imprint that confirms the state of disbelief for those who reject the truth.
My sentiments exactly because the primary meaning of khatem is that of the covering of a thing and protecting it against other infringements. In this sense is it a seal, it confirms their standing.
Joe
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peace oben,
3737 In fact, he has brought the truth, and has confirmed the messengers.
So previous messengers can be confirmed as well as scriptures.
From my perspective, this is the same thing. A messenger who confirms other messengers implies he confirms their messages. You, me and other we can confirm the messengers through their messages.
The verse is clear marie; Muhammad is the 'khatem'.
In your envelope/postman analogy the Koran is the envelope and Muhammad is the postman. Muhammad is not stamped or marked - instead he IS the SEAL/MARK of the prophets.
What? the Koran = envelope
We have not the same analogy oben, the quran is the message itself which is delivered by the messeger.
What does the mark do? We established that a 'khatem' is a mark/stamp and not a method of closing something. So this mark is one of authentication. It authenticates or confirms the previous prophets.
I disagree because the analogy between the envelope and the messenger is wrong. When I read the reading, a "symbolic mark" of the messeger is not necessary to see that the message is from the god. The authentification is within the reading.
After all the mark helps confirm that the letter is from the person who placed the mark on it. Kings for example would put their mark on their laws using their rings - the mark confirms/authenticates that it was from the king.
Again, it is not appropriate to make an anlogy between the messeger and the envelope.
Inside the envelope, there is a message, and without a messeger, the "enveloppe + the message", it will not arrive to us.
Peace Joe,
I think Marie's analysis does not hold simply because in my opinion she has not taken into account the meaning of muhammad/appreciative. Thus if I were to look at ayat 3340 I would see how first we are told how these people's ancestors were not appreciative,
Ahmad and Mohammad have a common meaning and I didn't forget that they mean appreciative... If we consider the context of the chapter 33 since the begining, we can see that this is not only a generic term. I respect your view but I don't share it.
The God knows best
Marie
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Salaam Marie,
If you could only see the context as I see it, the protection, the umph! put into the nabi and the muttaqeen to strive on, that lends to the rasool being appreciative/muhammad and it being the stamp upon which the nabiyyeen draw themselves.
1- the rasool is to be appreciative
2- it entails the standing of the nabiyyeen
Joe
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Salaam Joe,
If you could only see the context as I see it,
Our divergence is about the context, you see the context of one verse, I see the context of the whole chapter, therefore we cannot converge until now.
367 has a similar structure than 3340 and that doesn't mean the one who is'haneef/monotheist is to be 'abraham.'
367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was an upright man who had surrendered to Allah. He never ascribed divinity to anyone beside One True God.
Ma kana ibraheemu yahoodiyyan wala nasraniyyan walakin kana haneefan musliman wama kana minaalmushrikeena3340 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is Allah?s Messenger and the Closing Seal of all Prophets. And Allah, indeed, is Knower of all things.
Ma kana muhammadun abaahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahi wa khatama alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahubikulli shay-in AAaleemanThe stamps of the messenger doesn't matter but only the authentification within the divine message delivered by the messeger.
Marie
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Salaams marie,all,
Love to know where you have this"all" from,Thank you.
Salaam.
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Salaams marie,
From your ayat
"Seal of all Prophets. "
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Salaam Marie,
I am actually referring to the entire chapter. If you read my last post you would see that, otherwise one should ask where I am talking about the muttaqeen and the protection being lent to these people and the rasool. I'm just worried that you're not really paying attention to the context.
Joe
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Salam all,
Muhammad does not mean Apreciative. It means Appreciated/praised.
Hussein
Peace hlatif, all
As you said, "muhammad" means appreciated/praised, not appreciative. Although I agree with the form, "solicited" seems more appropriate as translation.
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Salam Mohamed, Hussein,
Salam all,
Muhammad does not mean Apreciative. It means Appreciated/praised.
Hussein
Peace hlatif, all
As you said, "muhammad" means appreciated/praised, not appreciative. Although I agree with the form, "solicited" seems more appropriate as translation.
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Just a thought, maybe there is a connection between Muhammad, the messenger of the god and his glorious, praised station (1778-79)
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You shall hold the salat at the waning of the sun, until the darkness of the night; and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
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And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps/soon your Lord will raise you to a Glorious/Praised Station (maqaman mahmoodan).
What do you think?
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Salaam Marie,
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2161
Joe
Thanks for the link, I forget it ops
The context of 1778-80 seems to yield to such an understanding of mahmadun (appreciative). In reaching out to God (1778-79) one will be established as appreciative (1779) and give such humbleness and petition to Allah (1780).
Well said!
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Peace all,
Edip replied to my post on 19.org and raised some good points regarding my post. I thought I'd relay my answer to those points as I feel it clarifies a little better what I said originally.
Khatam, or seal, closes and protects the letter. If it means authentication, then Muhammad should be the authentication of messengers too. But, the verse does not include messengers to this particular mission.
He fulfils that role in 3737 where the messengers are also 'confirmed'. Note that the bringing (delivering) is confirmed.
I think the difference is subtle between messenger and prophet - but a stamp can only occur on a document and the prophets brought pages/books thus the stamp of authentication on the prophets.
As for the claim of Muhammad not being a proper name; knowing the grammar of the four verses where it occurs, I see it a futile attemp to discuss it with someone who have no clue about the original language and o top of that is a customer of miraculous conspiracy theories.
But, when I have time, and if you are still asserting such a linguistically and historically autragous idea, then, I will inshallah explain it.
I apologise for this part. It's from an older understanding and I haven't updated the "is" a messenger part either when I wrote this.
Better is...
3340 Muhammad was not the father of any of your men, but (he was) a messenger of God, and the authentication of the prophets and God has full knowledge of all things.
As far as letters go - I don't have information that letters were closed shut with the stamp (this is true for later times when wax stamped would 'seal' the letter.); but rather the stamp would confirm that the letter was from the said party. It was a stamp authenticating the letter - sultans would stamp their fermans to give authentication/authority.
Thus I see the khatem-an-nabiyan as God saying that Muhammad was his stamp of authentication for the prophets who brought scriptures.
3737 is the counterpart verse where Muhammad brings Truth confirming the messengers (the role of messengers being delivery/bringing).
The stamp/seal may imply closure - I am not denying this. However the meaning does not mean finalised and I tried to show using other instances why I thought so.
Also when hearts are stamped for example - is the stamp a final event or does it merely authenticate that person as a disbeliever - a marked man - so to speak.
Moreover the stamp on hearts etc is implied to be removable in 646. I am not saying that this means that the khatem is removable in the instance of 3340 but rather that the meaning is not final/last - but authentication.
If another prophet were to be sent - that person would then be the stamp of authentication on the prophets before them.
Do you see the difference?
Peace.
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Peace all,
Like Isa (575), Muhammad is no more than a messenger like many messengers that have passed before him (3144).
Another reading for khatama alnnabiyyeena
kana muhammadun khatama alnnabiyyeena
Muhammad is/was the Closing Seal of the Prophetscould mean
khatama Allahu (AAala) alnnabiyyeena bimuhammad
The God has sealed the prophets with/by MuhammadFor more information see http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2985&sid=f35686bf60eaae6d5b62ee11b954d191
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salams all,
interesting discussion... i have been meaning to put together a little something to counter this line of reasoning, but i'm only partly done.. so let me just add this for now.
needless to say, the word "khatim" is being used and abused here. the basic tactic i see here is taking one small shade of its meaning which can mean imprint, and then extrapolating that to the extreme, while at the same time COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that 90% of the meaning is END.
The argument was brought up that if Allah meant last when why didn't he use another word like aakhir or whatever... honestly, i dont know. there are several times in the Quran that I feel, why didn't Allah just say it like this so that such and such hadith follower could more easily listen. I dont know why Allah has worded things the way he has. Needless to say, as we all know, words of the Quran can be misunderstood. For example, hadith followers take the verse 'ateeallah wa 'ateearrasool to mean follow the Quran and the Hadith. But I think the Quran was made challenging to understand so that the act of trying to understand it would strengthen and solidify a nation/person's iman.
Anyway, there are many words in Arabic to describe any particular thing. Imprint/mark can be described by many other more direct words, such as simah or 'alaamah etc etc... but the Arabic word khaatim, though it can be used to describe an imprint... is a VERY special description. It describes a CLOSING imprint, a LOCKING imprint.. and ENDING. This, if you look at the lexicons, is 90% of the meaning... yet it appears that people are adamant at pursuing the 10% that suits their cause, perhaps so that they can name the gurus of their choice as so-called Prophets of God.
wassalam
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Salaam Shuaib,
I agree that khatem can describe a closing imprint or a sealing imprint, but there are ayaat in the quran that show me that this closing imprint is not one that is necessarily permanent. If you could show us your work on this issue that would be great for all of us. The occurrences of the word in it's several forms are listed below.
Khatama - He sealed
khatama - Sea, last and best
nakhtimu - We sealed
yakhtim - He seals
makhtoom - Sealed one
Khitam - Sealing
It does not matter what the bulk of the definitions may be, that is, the most frequented usage. What is important is the correct usage. Also it is of primary significance that it means the covering over of a thing and securing oneself from a thing's entering it.
Joe
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salam joe,
the sealing of hearts and the sealing of the Prophethood and wahi are two completely different subjects. as far as our hearts/minds, we are the ones in control and it is through our own deeds that our hearts get sealed and CLOSED, and through our own deeds that our hearts get unsealed and opened to the truth.
the prophethood/wahi, however, is completely within Allah's domain of control. wahi is not as volatile an item NOR as individual an item as is the hearts of men, opening and closing opening and closing... part of the reason for Allah's wisdom in completing the wahi in the form of the Quran is so that it could be preserved and Muslims could follow it without doubt. If wahi was still open and prophets still came, this perfection would be demolished.
Anyway, this is just a brief answer, but should at least explain my thoughts. i will provide my more detailed analysis, i hope, very soon.
wassalam