Khatem,seal - end, can he/does he change his command?
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Salaams all,
is it my missunderstandings or can we follow the arguement herein;Over the history,and at different times.
- Messenger prophet,and 1,2 0r more prophets
- Messenger prophet,and 1,2 0r more prophets
- Messenger prophet,and 1,2 0r more prophets
x) Messenger prophet(Muhammad). But no more prophets in this case.
x??..e.t.cIf indeed prophet Muhammad was the last of the whole lot of prophets wouldn?t he be Akhir.
Note one or a number(a portion) of hearts may be sealed. (khatam)( -27)
When we consider the WHOLE ,we tend to use Akhir for the end or last.
Akhir=end, of a day ? 372)
AlAkhir=The last, day. 2126(Akhir = last one ; it is the opposite of Awwal ) .
2184,185
28,262
002.038
We said you get down from it all and when ever comes to you from me guidance then whoever follows my guidance then (there is) no fear on them and not they shall grieve.
033.040
SHAKIR Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
Looking at them ayat , could it be Allah Changes his way of doing things?
Or do we follow the above argument?
Or is there another argument ?
Give me your answer ,ANYONE HERE,Thanks.Salaams.
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Hey Marie and anyyone who reads this!
Khatam is rich in meaning, there are atleast two notions in it seal and closing.
I don't see no logic in either the word ktatam meaning or its context meaning that that prophecy is put to an end by "muhammad".
Do you agree? -
Salaams Aziz,marie,
I think-i agree with that,may be marie or some one could have a vote though to see if others think whether there will/might be messengers thus prophets after him.Thanks.
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Peace be upon you all,
We do not have to GUESS about the meaning of "seal", we see it used throughout the book when the seal is placed on eyes and hearts. We KNOW that these seals are RELATIVE to the actions of each person, if they turn to the God, the seals are removed, if they turn away, the seals are put back, so why now do we insist that "muhammad' was the LAST prophet when the God uses in this reading another word to denote last. We are not here discussing the rich arabic language, we are discussing how the GOD uses the words consistently in His message. He does not use words haphazardly, the God follows strict patterns in his creation, look at all the sciences, look at DNA strands, look at the cycles of life, look at the strict patterns that spewed from the "big bang" giving us the exact science of chemistry. The God creates according to PATTERNS, that is His Mercy so we can find our way.
a prophet is the description of a person that TALKS to the God, a messenger is one who spreads a message. We can ALL talk to the God, and we can all spread messages. Stop making idols of the previous prophets and messangers and start following thier examples, they were men/women like us. LIKE US.
The Old testament starts of praising the prophets and at the end of the book starts villifying them. They want to get rid of the people who "talk to the God" because they will mess up the wicked system they want to keep going. Until you "talk to the God", they will continue to treat you as a slave. The wicked will contnue to "kill the prophets" right in front of your eyes.
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Hello El-Aziz
Hey Marie and anyyone who reads this!
Khatam is rich in meaning, there are atleast two notions in it seal and closing.
I don't see no logic in either the word ktatam meaning or its context meaning that that prophecy is put to an end by "muhammad".
Do you agree?IMHO, Khaatam (3340) means both closing and seal and Muhammad according the context of several verses and chapters is not a generic term like Isa and Abraham.
The God's system is fully detailed in the reading (the quran) and sufficient for our guidance. This reading is protected by the god, then another books delivered by another prophets are not necessary at least for us.
We all agree muhammad is not khatam of the messengers but of the prophets .
This is my last post on this subject.
Thanks
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Salaam Folks,
I came across a word in the reading that seems to have a close meaning to Kh-Ta-Ma which is Ta-Ba-Ayn
See
987 They chose to be with the sedentary. Consequently, their hearts were sealed, and thus, they cannot comprehend.
993 The blame is on those who ask your permission to stay behind, even though they have no excuse. They have chosen to be with the sedentary. Consequently, GOD has sealed their hearts, and thus, they do not attain any knowledge.
What occurred to me that the reading does not have to rely on particular words to explain something, since explanation from different angles can be done by referring to different words, examples, concepts etc...
Perhaps this will help in triggering some more thoughts.
Wa'salaam
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Peace be upon you Ash Shura,
Good observation. We have some work to do. Here are the verses , accorinding to Burhan site, that have the root Kh-Ta-Ma (he has it as (v-t-m)
http//www.openburhan.com/data/b.x.648.htm
27
646
3340
3665
4224
4523
8325
8326 -
Salaam Kyle,
Here are all the forms that I know of which are used for Ta Ba 'Ayn.
tabaAAa - He has set a seal - He has no penetrative enery, sharpness, or effectiveness, in the affairs that are the means, or causes, of attaining honour, like the sword that is overspread with much rust. Rendered filthy, or foul .
tbaAAu - We put a seal
yatbaAAu - He sets a seal
tubiAAa - Is sealed
natbaAAu - We put a seal
Joe
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Can you do the same for the verses I gave, I want to work this thing out once and for all. We have been doing this for too long for us to only be at this level. Lets get some serious study going on here.
WHile you are doing that, I will try my best to give translations of the verses you just gave so we can see them all together(WHOLISTIC) and have a better view.
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Salaam Kyle,
These are the forms for Khatama.
Khatama - He sealed
khatama - Sea, last and best
nakhtimu - We sealed
yakhtim - He seals
makhtoom - Sealed one
Khitam - Sealing
Perhaps knowing something of the roots shall help as well.
Khatama - To seal, put a signet upon; stamp; imprint; end ; complete a thing. The primary signification is the covering over of a thing and securing oneself from a things entering it.
Tab'a - - To seal , imprint, print, stamp, impress , brand , fashion, make to be dirty , rusted . Signifies an innate disposition or temper or the like. It also signifies the constitution, nature, or temperament, or aggregate natural tendencies .
Joe
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Peace be upon you,
Ta-Ba-'Ayn. Tab'a - - To seal , imprint, print, stamp, impress , brand , fashion, make to be dirty , rusted . Signifies an innate disposition or temper or the like. It also signifies the constitution, nature, or temperament, or aggregate natural tendencies .
(4155) So with what their breaking/breaching (of) their promise/covenant, and their disbelief with The God's signs, and their killing (of) the prophets, without truth, and their saying "Our hearts (are) covered/uncomprehending." But The God tabaAAa on it, with their rejection, so they do not have faith except a few.
(7100) Or did He not guide to those inheriting the earth from after its people , that if We will, We struck/marked them because of their crimes, and We natbaAAu on their hearts , so they do not hear/listen?
(7101) Those are the towns, We recite on (to) you from its information/news, and their messengers had come to them with the clarification, so they were not to have faith with what they denied/falsified from before, like that The God yatbaAAu on the disbelievers' hearts.
(987) They accepted/approved with that they be with the remaining behind and, (it) was tubiAAa on their hearts so they do not understand.
(993) The path (is) on those who ask for permission/pardon of you and they are rich, they accepted ,with that they be with the remaining behind, and The God tabaAAa on their hearts, so they do not know.
(1074) Then We sent from after him messengers to their nations, so they came to them with the signs, so they were not to have faith with what they lied/denied/falsified with it from before, like that We natbaAAu on the transgressors' hearts.
(1610 They are those who The God tabaAAa on their hearts, and their hearing, and their eye sights, and those, they are the ignoring/neglecting/disregarding.
(3059) Like that The God yatbaAAu on the hearts of those who do not know.
(4035) "Those who argue in The God's signs without an authority (that) came to them, abhorrence/hatred becomes big at God, and at those who have faith, like that The God yatbaAAu on every arrogant, merciless heart."
(4716) And from them who listens to you until when they got out/emerged (left) from at you, they said to those who were given/brought the knowledge "What (did) he say just then?" They are those who The God tabaAAa on their hearts, and they followed their desires.
(633) That (is) because they had faith, then they rejected, so (it) was tubiAAa on their hearts, so they do not understand.
Khatama - To seal, put a signet upon; stamp; imprint; end ; complete a thing. The primary signification is the covering over of a thing and securing oneself from a things entering it.
(27) The God khatama on their hearts, and on their hearing, and on their seeing a cover(?) and for them (is) a great torture.
(646) Say "Do you see, if The God took your sense of hearing, and your seeing, and khatama on your hearts, which god other than The God comes to you with it?" See how We elaborate the signs, then they turn away.
(3340) One who is appreciative is not a father (of) anyone from your men, except The God's messenger, and the prophets' khatama, and The God is with every thing, knowing.
(3665) The time We nakhtimu on their mouths, and their hands converse/speak to Us , and their feet bear witness with what they were earning/acquiring
(4224) Or they say "He fabricated on (about) The God lies." So if The God wills, He yakhtim on your heart, and The God eliminates the falsehood, and The God corrects the truth with His words, surely He is knowledgeable with of the chests.
(4523) Did you see who took his desire (as) his god? And The God misguided him on knowledge, and He khatama on his hearing and His heart ,and He made on his seeing a cover, so who guides him from after The God? So do you not remember?
(8325) Thier drink from nectar/wine makhtoomin
(8326) Its khitamuhu (is) musk/fragrance, and in (for) that so the competitors should compete.
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Salaam,
I looked at a few of the ayaat containing the two words to try and figure what they implied. Khatem does seem to imply a closing seal , but such a one in which it is there to keep other things from intruding on what is already there . Just read the context of the sealings.
On the other hand the ayaat with Tab'a seem to show those sealings which present a disposition like the people who are already disposed to rejecting .
I'm sure a better study then a quick review is needed for a better understanding though.
Joe
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Salam,
but such a one in which it is there to keep other things from intruding on what is already there . Just read the context of the sealings.
So, no one should intrude and enter the domain of prophets. That is what I understand of KHATAM ANNABIYYEEN.
Salam all
Hussein
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Salaams marie,all,
marie said
"We all agree muhammad is not khatam of the messengers but of the prophets ."
He isn't Khatam of the prophets ,he was merely the Khatam of the prophets of his set as shown above - sorry to disagree.As i tried showing there are sets of a Messenger and prophets.
and in the case of the set(x) enclosing our Messenger ,Muhammad,there whern't going to be any more prophets in this case as he didn't have close blood male relatives - that is all.
Its the Messengers who recieve the revelation/book and not all prophets -as in the case of the brother of Moses who was a prophet but not a messenger.
Sorry if i created the confusion.
Salaams all.
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Salaam Hussein,
So, no one should intrude and enter the domain of prophets. That is what I understand of KHATAM ANNABIYYEEN.
Your reply seems erroneous and abject simply because no one would be no human being and thus you would be saing the nabiyy Allah are beings other than human beings. I think that perhaps muhammad is the domain of the nabiyeen for which other things like unnapproval are not vouchsafe.
Joe
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Peace be upon you all,
I am still studying and relecting on these verses, but two verses stand out to me regarding Khatama
(8325) Thier drink from nectar/wine makhtoomin
(8326) Its khitamuhu (is) musk/fragrance, and in (for) that so the competitors should compete.
It seems to me that the competitors (we are told to compete in righteous deeds) are competing for that "KHATAMA".
I have been studying ancient Kemetic(egyption) philosohpy because we are told to have faith in what descended to us and those before us. A "prophet" is considered to be only "one who talks to the God" as Musa did. Is Musa the only person to be able to do that? If so, why is he used as an example for us? Examples are to be followed, emulated. These verses seem to be telling us to compete to get to that level.
Lastly, just so no one is decieved to think Musa is the only one who spoke to the God,
(2253) Those are the messengers, We preferred/favoured/blessed some of them over some(others), from them who spoke/conversed/talked (with) God, and He rose some of them steps/stages/degrees...
Another interesting thing that I have been informed is that in the Old testament, it starts of praising the prophets, but at the end it villifies the prophets. Christianity and its sword intended to get rid of those who "talk to the God" so they could be mental slaves.
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Salam Joe,
Joe wrote
Your reply seems erroneous and abject simply because no one would be no human being and thus you would be saing the nabiyy Allah are beings other than human beings
I am saying that the Nabiyy Allah are people like other people, who recieved guidance from GOD in a more special way than others. The prophet Muhammad is the seal of this group. Basically saying, after him, no one will be of this special group.
People don't have to be prophets to be righteous. People will receive Wahy, but not in the same way as the prophets. You don't become subhuman if you are not a prophet and you don't become superhuman if you are a prophet.
Salam
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein,
I am saying that the Nabiyy Allah are people like other people, who recieved guidance from GOD in a more special way than others. The prophet Muhammad is the seal of this group. Basically saying, after him, no one will be of this special group.
I understand that the station of being a nabi is a distinguished group just as muslimeen and mumin are, but I do not understand this idea you have of nabiyy Allah recieving wahy/inspiration in a more special way. Muhammad is the seal in what way is still what I've not determined.
People don't have to be prophets to be righteous. People will receive Wahy, but not in the same way as the prophets.
Why won't they? You're still distinguishing people from nabiyeen as if nabiyeen are not people. Show me where the quran says that people do not recieve wahy/inspiration the same as nabiyeen, who are people.
You don't become subhuman if you are not a prophet and you don't become superhuman if you are a prophet.
Let's keep this in mind.
Joe