Would like to learn more....

Seeking

Welcome to the forum, I hope you find what you are seeking.

Online people tend to be a lot more hostile than real life. Generally muslims like to help or "guide" people to islam if that is the persons interest. So if you did mention to someone in the open about following the Quran and disregarding hadith they would say it's a dangerous thing to do, an erroneous act or you don't have enough knowledge to understand.

Muslims feel offended. The reason is because it is perceived as "intentionally refusing to follow the prophet" so I guess it comes across as offensive or maybe even irrational. Though, not only the prophet but also it comes across as disregarding learned scholarly work.

Unfortunately majority of people that I have come across have a misinformed and misunderstanding of how muslims who uphold the Quran, follow the Quran.

Is it true that if you see a Musim brother/sister doing something that is not in line with Islamic beliefs, you are to (gently) remind them so that they can correct themselves? If so, I can understand why people may be against others not following the hadith, and how they may see it as refusing to follow the Prophet/ authenticated hadith.

However, if someone holds different beliefs regarding Islam, why are they so hostile towards them? It is true that people can be more aggressive on the internet towards others of differing beliefs, but I just can't understand why we can't just support each other? If we hold different beliefs, but are sincere, isn't that enough? Why do some people feel that they have to try and bully others into believing what they do??

As I have literally just started reading the Qu'ran, I know nothing about Islam, but I see this hostility towards Muslims who may have differing opinions and views and it scares me. I know that not all Muslims are like this and that there is aggressiveness in many religions over differing beliefs, but....I don't know....why can't we all just get along? (Yes, I am this naive... -[ )

Seeking

Peace,

And most fall victim to the phenomenon of 6116, sadly enough.

(I just had to rush over to the Qu'ran to look that verse up....I am amazed at how people can quote verses of the Qu'ran, I find it beautiful that they know it so well that they can use it like this ) )

Sorry, I am taking this verse to mean that the Muslims who follow the major sects are possibly straying away from Allah as they are assuming that they are right, but in doing so they are actually going in the other direction? Is this what you meant?

Man_of_Faith

To be honest, I don't think I've read any hadith before, but from what I've heard and read about them, is that they are used in Syariah law and were written well after the passing of the Prophet, but I thought the Qu'ran said that it is a complete text and that you do not need other texts to understand it? (I could be wrong, if I am please correct me!)

I have started reading the Qu'ran translation from this site, however the more I look at the Arabic in other Qu'ran translations, I'm seriously considering studying Arabic...are there textbooks on Classical Arabic I wonder....?

No I think you misunderstand me. You should absolutely never use any source to interpret the Qur'an or at least use it to think you have the ultimate understanding. Particularly "hadith" books reveal the errors of what words mean in Qur'an. And when you find them you realize that the interpretation is an inference by the people who wrote the hadith, their faulty one. The point is then that you can never use them to confirm what words mean in Qur'an. That is a big trap. The persistent salat ritual is one of them in my opinion.

(I just had to rush over to the Qu'ran to look that verse up....I am amazed at how people can quote verses of the Qu'ran, I find it beautiful that they know it so well that they can use it like this ) )

Yes. But it really sucks when they quote passages with a faulty interpretation/translation. Particularly the "Contact prayer" phrase is like a needle to my eye every time it occurs in Monotheist translation. I have to see it myself every time because I do not yet have any own finished translation. But I can live with it. It is no problem. My mind auto-corrects it when I read it. And I more and more read the plain Arabic instead.

It is just a shame that my "study tool" does not have the Monotheist Translation in its options and I have to live with the awkward Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation (although it is better than the grossly sectarian translations).

Sorry, I am taking this verse to mean that the Muslims who follow the major sects are possibly straying away from Allah as they are assuming that they are right, but in doing so they are actually going in the other direction? Is this what you meant?

The 6116 talks about those who listen to the traditional interpretation of God's decree which leads them into a world of conjecture and guesswork. That is what the passage talks about. It is hard not to unless we work really hard interpreting and/or one of us progresses in his/her understanding, but it is always something worth keeping in mind. But the lesson in that passage is not to simply listen to what someone says and then blindly think that they told you the right version, particularly if a lot of weird stuff is involved and the tradition is very old and seems primitive and often senseless, and the building in Mecca is as bad as that it is straight against the commandment of God to take the likeliness of anything in Heaven or Earth to bring you closer to God. See how illogical traditions people have.

I have started reading the Qu'ran translation from this site, however the more I look at the Arabic in other Qu'ran translations, I'm seriously considering studying Arabic...are there textbooks on Classical Arabic I wonder....?

There are such books, but I would not put my faith at stake by believing in them blindly. However, it may be useful to read grammar books just to get the gist in how the language works but then not give your life to the accuracy of the grammar. You can likely just google it.

http//corpus.quran.com is a good site to study the Arabic in various ways, even if the meanings of the words are often sectarian, so you have to still have enabled your critical thinking. It is a decent way of getting the hang of the Arabic grammar by studying each word in a succession. And if you do not know the sounds (phonology) of the Arabic letters that is the first thing you may want to learn. And how it is spoken can somehow be learned by reading a transliteration, however I say that if you learn the phonology then how words in a succession sounds will be produced automatically once you talk. Not sure where you are from, but pronouncing Arabic can feel a bit strange. There are many kinds of sounds and combinations of sounds not common to those who speak English for example.

I also use a study tool called Zekr. Works nice in the way that you can type in a root word and then it lists every single passage in the recitation called Qur'an that contains a derived word from that root word. A minus is that it is still a project by sectarians and it lacks decent translations, but if you need to study the Arabic it works fine. And you can easily copy-paste the Arabic passages from it.

However, if someone holds different beliefs regarding Islam, why are they so hostile towards them?

To be honest, friend, the tone in a traditional interpretation is very unfriendly from God's point of view. It feels like a grumpy old man who is very unloving and hateful towards people. This is likely contaminating the whole sects of people adhering to this book. This is why it is wise learning the Arabic or getting confidence for someone who manages to translate it properly. God's tone is not unfriendly but it is just a exaggerated negative meaning assigned to the words very often. It also feels, traditionally, that God wants a lot of stuff that appears senseless and the most important thing that occurs as the second passage in the whole Qur'an (except chapter 1) is to establish a contact prayer as if that is all that God wants, five times per day... and no matter what kind of amount it is still nonsensical to me.

Apostates are to be killed, traditionally, that is a reason why many sectarians are very hostile towards people with differing views. And it is very easy to be an apostate. Merely disbelieving in things like ritualistic prayer causes you to be an apostate. Or you can merely question their practices and adherence to hadith and you are considered an apostate. Free-minded thinking is forbidden in Islam, according to them. Because then Satan entices you they say.

Be whole

Seeking

I guess I should stay away from hadith as much as possible then...

Hopefully I will be able to start learning at least some basic Arabic grammar and words to help me understand the Qu'ran better. I would like to read the Qu'ran in Japanese too, but for some reason Japanese bookstores never stock Qu'ran. I have been to 3 or 4 major bookstores and I've looked for the Qu'ran in Japanese, and although they have about 50 copies of the Gospel and a shelf and a half dedicated to books on Christianity, they never have the Qu'ran, and hardly any books about Islam. It can be a little frustrating...

(If you don't mind me asking, when the Monotheistic Translation uses the term 'contact prayer' what do you call it instead?)

It sounds like 6116 is kind of saying 'think for yourself and don't just accept everything blindly?' I think more people (of all beliefs and faiths) should heed this a little more.

Thank you for the links and information regarding Arabic! I am Australian so my first language is English, however I have studied Indonesian and Japanese, so I'm used to trying to imitate unfamiliar pronunciation. I guess I'll just have to take it slowly and try my best to learn the basics first, and gradually work up from there. It would be amazing to read the Qu'ran in the original Arabic.

The hostility between different Islamic groups is quite scary to me. The idea of killing someone for apostasy because they ask questions or do things differently seems extreme. As I am not Muslim maybe it's not my place to say anything, but if someone sees another doing something differently in their faith, does it really affect them? I personally would just try my best to do the best I can, and not judge others for their differences, as they are probably trying to do the best that they can too. I guess this could apply to all people though...

I was thinking about contacting a mesjid not too far from my home to learn more about Islam, but because I'm worried I might anger someone if I appear to not agree with certain things (i.e hadith) I'm wondering if I should just avoid mesjid altogether? At the same time though, I feel as if I'm missing out on learning more by not going....

Thank you again for replying to my posts and questions. Although I still know practically nothing about Islam, I find myself constantly thinking about it, so I hope that's a sign that I will be able to learn more.

(P.S-I apologise if I'm spelling any Arabic-based words strangely. Pretty much all the Arabic words I know are from my Indonesian studies, which seem to be fairly different to their originals (i.e. jilbab vs hijab) so if my posts seem strange, I'm sorry!)

SarahY

I can't read Japanese but have you tried google? https//www.alislam.org/quran/Holy-Quran-Japanese.pdf

The hostility between different Islamic groups is quite scary to me.
Yeh even to muslims, though it's not really that bad in Australia. There might be a few idiots but it's mainly just ignorance. Besides no-one is going to kill you there for apostasy. I think for most people it's the idea of shaming the family and more about traditions and social status than religiousness.

You could go to the local masjid and contact them no big deal. Just tell them you want to learn about islam. Though I believe you'd be going to learn their islamic ideology so inevitably at some point they'd end up teaching you about hadith, like it or not.

Jafar

I remember reading a book on the history of Islam (I really regret leaving it in storage when I moved overseas, I want to read it again!) about how Syariah law is not Islam, but based on a mix of local cultural practices and ahadith which are now considered as part of Islam. It saddens me to see how people are abusing the religion in order to control people (though it's not just the people promoting Syariah-this happens in every religion unfortunately...)

All or at least majority of today's organized religion was invented to control people's mind.
It's an easy to observe pattern especially on Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The religion of Islam and its Sharia conception consists of

50% Judaism
25% Christianity
15% Arab Paganism
10% Others (Zoroastrianism, Mandeanism etc..)

You can easily trace every concept within Sharia to it's respective sources, from stoning the apostate to the ridiculous headscarf law.

I just wish the teachers who taught the RE classes in my primary school had been as open minded as the people on this forum. I remember asking a question regarding something in the Bible (I can't remember the details, sorry) and the teacher's response was 'because it's in the Bible.' No discussion, or explanation, or anything. I asked a few more questions in a few later lessons, and all I got was 'because it's in the Bible' or 'because God said it is.' I understand faith is accepting things that may not have a clear answer, but he always seemed frustrated with me because I had asked a question. '(

See the above, within the religion of Islam is not much of a difference..
X is true because Muhammad (allegedly) said so in the hadith or because the Quran said so.
No matter how ridiculous and illogical X is.

I remembered asking my "Murrobi" the question of
How does Muhammad's shahada sounds like? Did he proclaimed "I testify that I am the messenger of God"?
And the answer was it is because his hadith said so..

And many people in this forum still clinging to such mindset..
X is true because the Quran said so..

Don't stop asking question because if it smells like sht, usually it is sht..

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.
-- Albert Einstein

Believe nothing, merely because you have been told of it ? or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings?that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide
-- Siddhartha

Salam / Peace

Man_of_Faith

Harmony be with you Seeking,

God is a spectacular phenomenon. A kind of singularity which everything including us being its mass. This is why you cannot see God, but if you raise your own hand in front of your eyes and behold it, you have seen God or if you watch the mountain or anywhere there is God.

But some people oppose that notion and become in opposition and an anomaly to this singularity and they will be be ejected into the place called Hell when the promised day comes. Because when the Singularity contracts back to One then everyone not One (whole) will meet that fate. It is all about being an anomaly or impurity to that Singularity that faith is about.

Iman (faith) and do/be good is hence the watchword repeated many times just because this is the key. Iman is the condition of being whole and not impure.

And to have iman you need to be harmonized to God which I consider to be in a kind of symbiotic state with God.

As you can see my perception of faith is not like others, but yet I take this interpretation out of the book called Quran. But I consider this to be the real faith without a lot of strangeness.

Salat, or contact prayer as it is wrongfully called, is the case of being mindful of what you have been taught/enlightened about and become purified. Nothing magical, just hearkened unto the decree (commandments) taught by God and try to become one with God rather than distance yourself by being impure. Impure could be regarded as being evil, like unfair and oppressive. Consider bad person.

People focus so much on wondering what God wants us to do while it is very obvious. Do deeds that are goodly.

Be whole

Seeking

I can't read Japanese but have you tried google? https//www.alislam.org/quran/Holy-Quran-Japanese.pdf
Yeh even to muslims, though it's not really that bad in Australia. There might be a few idiots but it's mainly just ignorance. Besides no-one is going to kill you there for apostasy. I think for most people it's the idea of shaming the family and more about traditions and social status than religiousness.

You could go to the local masjid and contact them no big deal. Just tell them you want to learn about islam. Though I believe you'd be going to learn their islamic ideology so inevitably at some point they'd end up teaching you about hadith, like it or not.

Thank you very much for the link! (I can't believe I didn't think to look up the Japanese version on the internet... o ) I've had a quick look at it and it seems to have several verses on the top of the page, followed by an explanation of each verse underneath. It's definitely going to take me a while to read it all, but from first glance, it might be quite interesting to see how they've explained each verse.

I think it might be okay in Japan too. Thankfully the Japanese are pretty easy going and welcoming of all religions (unfortunately there are people who hate Islam and Muslims in Australia-again, blaming what terrorists do on the entire religious population ( ) so it might be easier to learn without worrying about offending anyone.

I will have to contact a mesjid and ask if I can visit and learn more about Islam. Like you said, I will probably have to learn about hadith if I go as they'll teach me their ideology, but as long as I keep an open mind I think I would learn more about Islam.

Seeking

All or at least majority of today's organized religion was invented to control people's mind.
It's an easy to observe pattern especially on Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The religion of Islam and its Sharia conception consists of

50% Judaism
25% Christianity
15% Arab Paganism
10% Others (Zoroastrianism, Mandeanism etc..)

You can easily trace every concept within Sharia to it's respective sources, from stoning the apostate to the ridiculous headscarf law.

See the above, within the religion of Islam is not much of a difference..
X is true because Muhammad (allegedly) said so in the hadith or because the Quran said so.
No matter how ridiculous and illogical X is.

I remembered asking my "Murrobi" the question of
How does Muhammad's shahada sounds like? Did he proclaimed "I testify that I am the messenger of God"?
And the answer was it is because his hadith said so..

And many people in this forum still clinging to such mindset..
X is true because the Quran said so..

Don't stop asking question because if it smells like sht, usually it is sht..

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.
-- Albert Einstein

Believe nothing, merely because you have been told of it ? or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings?that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide
-- Siddhartha

Salam / Peace

It's sad that something as beautiful as religion is twisted and changed in order for it to be used to control people's lives...

I'm sorry that you were told the same non-answers I was when you questioned the Qu'ran or hadith. If we don't think for ourselves and question what we don't understand and/or agree with, how will we ever learn?

One day, after I question and learn as much as I can, I hope to find the path for me. Right now everything is so confusing and I don't know what I'm doing. One moment, I feel like I want to run to the closest mesjid and learn as much as I can, the next, I want to stay how I am and not learn more about Islam....I'm very confused at the moment, so rather than make any snap decisions, I'm trying to take it slow and learn at my pace hopefully one day I will know where I am going!

Seeking

Harmony be with you Seeking,

God is a spectacular phenomenon. A kind of singularity which everything including us being its mass. This is why you cannot see God, but if you raise your own hand in front of your eyes and behold it, you have seen God or if you watch the mountain or anywhere there is God.

But some people oppose that notion and become in opposition and an anomaly to this singularity and they will be be ejected into the place called Hell when the promised day comes. Because when the Singularity contracts back to One then everyone not One (whole) will meet that fate. It is all about being an anomaly or impurity to that Singularity that faith is about.

Iman (faith) and do/be good is hence the watchword repeated many times just because this is the key. Iman is the condition of being whole and not impure.

And to have iman you need to be harmonized to God which I consider to be in a kind of symbiotic state with God.

As you can see my perception of faith is not like others, but yet I take this interpretation out of the book called Quran. But I consider this to be the real faith without a lot of strangeness.

Salat, or contact prayer as it is wrongfully called, is the case of being mindful of what you have been taught/enlightened about and become purified. Nothing magical, just hearkened unto the decree (commandments) taught by God and try to become one with God rather than distance yourself by being impure. Impure could be regarded as being evil, like unfair and oppressive. Consider bad person.

People focus so much on wondering what God wants us to do while it is very obvious. Do deeds that are goodly.

Be whole

The way you describe your faith is very beautiful!
I have met people who are not religious at all, and maybe because of this (and other factors too) they are very self-destructive and abusive to others who are religious. One person I have met that stands out thought it was funny to call my friend a terrorist because she was Muslim. His hateful attitude towards others just because they believe made me very sad. In Australia there seems to be this idea that religious people hate anyone not of their religion, yet I have met people of many different faiths, and it appears to me that the religious people are often very kind and accepting of others it is the non-religious who are more close-minded.

Again, I can't speak for every single person on earth, but I have heard the 'you're crazy if you believe there is a God' response from several people, yet I have never heard 'you're crazy if you don't believe there is a God' from people who believe.

JavaLatte

In Australia there seems to be this idea that religious people hate anyone not of their religion, yet I have met people of many different faiths, and it appears to me that the religious people are often very kind and accepting of others it is the non-religious who are more close-minded.

Bold I suppose my opinion is quite similar with this.

But stay be careful dear, with the fanatics from both (religious and non religious).

Salm.

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

Again, I can't speak for every single person on earth, but I have heard the 'you're crazy if you believe there is a God' response from several people, yet I have never heard 'you're crazy if you don't believe there is a God' from people who believe.

It is because they do not have the right perception of what is God.

If you are relatively smart and look upon faith through the perspective of the sects then it seems very primitive and God is rendered according to that image. I know from own experience because I was brought to faith through my own philosophies of existence and not from "religious scriptures". What prevented me from more carefully analyzing pieces of writing like Qur'an was the pathetic impression of world religions. And I did not join a Christian assembly because I felt it was pathetic to deem Jesus as son of a god, however I deeply inside believed that the Gospels that I read were a testament to the events that happened around Jesus, but it was not until recently I got faith that they were really not fake in any way. The mention of Jesus as "Son of God" is a misconception of the original language just as Father for God is a misunderstanding. Father = Creator and Son of God loosely Man of God or "(come/being) of God", indicating that you are 1.0 on IMAN, i.e. whole (you are healthy/complete in God's symbiosis). I think there are few who are 1.0 that are not also prophets or messengers, because then it means that you are fully able to channel information from God because you feel God like God feels him/her/itself, being a part of the Singularity.

The classical image of God as a grumpy bearded old man in Heaven is a vain image of God, but God is everything that you see, the Singularity you live within without perceiving unless you realize it. This image is what causes sensible people not to have faith in God, because they somehow put blame on God for the atrocities that happen in the world, but God is just a foundation/platform that everything is erected from and is not to blame for the mischief. God left ourselves to choose what we will do and all bad is from ourselves, but if we become whole with God then God will support us through ourselves (it is complicated to explain) and the creation. It is all about entering into symbiosis with our Creator. They often say that if God exists how can God let the oppression happen to the people in Africa for example, but many of the problems (if you allow me to be mean) is due to themselves but of course also due to "white man's" invasion of Africa and the Middle-Eastern populations as well keeping them as slaves and oppressing them. So the guilt runs down on ourselves in the end and The Singularity that we are its mass has no guilt at all in the issues.

And God is of assistance as long as you are one with God or otherwise you are just an anomaly to God and it does not matter if you are oppressed or not. God is not unfair either. You can always join God no matter if you are oppressed or not. I think all the people who are called Homo Sapiens started traveling out from the same original community and were informed in the beginning.

So it is difficult to understand the horror of seeing starving children in Africa, but it is just not really God's fault. Besides dieing can be painful, but if you starve to death while trying to serve God and were whole it could also be a blessing to die, even how gross it may sound.

So those who say you are crazy because you have faith in God do not know what God is. God is not a slave for us and is just a platform on which we live in the kind of allegorical description of a singularity. God is not responsible us anything. Because God does not really interfere is just a reason why God is not a dictator or tyrant like the above image of a bearded grumpy old man who screams from right to left out his anger, but for those who synchronize with God then God will lend support. God punishes, in this world, but that is through ourselves that take care of it by The Singularity's own mechanisms.

God stands for good and those who become one with that and those who are good will be successful.

It feels like I am just rambling without coming to what I wanted to say, so I hope that you will understand anyway... I stop there.

Be whole

Seeking

Bold I suppose my opinion is quite similar with this.

But stay be careful dear, with the fanatics from both (religious and non religious).

Salm.

That is true-you always hear about religious fanatics, but there are non-religious fanatics who are equally as dangerous and hateful. I guess the only thing to do is try to avoid them as best we can.

Seeking