What is the Qur'ans stance on homosexuality?
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Exactly, labels do not mean anything.
Not to say that attractions are also fabricated. We see it everyday with the cannons of beauty, applied specially to women. What is attractive at a given a time is seen as ugly at some other.
That is "natural" attraction of course exists, but it is not the only kind of attraction.
Salaam
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Just like others in this thread I am not a big fan of the label "homosexuality". Historically its a very new word, which did not exist when the Quran was written. The Quran talks about the action of having sex with someone of the same gender. It does not say that these actions define these people and turn them into "homosexuals".
However, I saw that you defined homosexuality as "the state of being sexually attracted to people of their own sex". So from this definition we can discuss whether it is a sin or not.
It is not a sin to feel sexually attracted to people of your own sex! I have even had sunni scholars tell me clearly that this is not a sin. You can not control who you feel attracted to, so there is no sin. You are right that it is not a personal choice, just like a socalled "heterosexual" (another word I dont like) can not decide which women he wants to be attracted to.
I dont understand your need to find out if its a personal choice or not. The Quran does not say that its a sin to feel sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, and as mentioned even many sunni scholars agree with this. You seem to meet the wrong kind of religious people.
However, the Quran is very clear that THE ACTION of having sex with someone of the same gender as yourself is a sin! That is what is a sin. It is not the feeling of being attracted, or the desire that is a sin - it is the action. Having sex with someone of the same gender is a sin.
This is clearly written in the Quran. It should also not come as a surprise to us, since it is in general clear in the Quran that sex is only allowed when you are married, and a man can only be married to a woman. A marriage is a "permission to have sex" and 2 men can not get this permission.
"Homosexuals" are normal people, and just like other people they have a personal choice in what actions they do. If they have sex with someone of the same gender, then that is a choice they have made (unless they have a brain tumor...). And it is a sin.
It is not different than a "heterosexual" man who feel attracted to his neighbours wife. If he chooses to have sex with her he has committed a sin. If he choose not to, then he has done a good thing. When we abstain from those of our desires that go against Allahs rules, we do a good deed.
There is no scientific data in this post. Because the thing that is not a personal choice (the attraction) is not a sin, and the thing that is a personal choice (the action) is a sin. So I dont see why you need to discuss whether the first is a personal choice or not. It has nothing to do with the ruling that the action is a sin.
There is evidence showing that homosexuality has existed long, long before the people of Lot.
Can you please provide this evidence?
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I don't believe homosexuality can be considered sinful under the understanding that it is not a personal choice. After studying some developmental psychology and reading papers on homosexuality, I have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not, by any means, a personal choice.
http//i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk239/qwe-rty/298707-cool-story-bro-obama.jpg
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I understand that the verses on homosexuality are in reference to Lut's people. Before I cite those, I want to state that at the present moment, I am unequivocally against homophobia. I don't believe homosexuality can be considered sinful under the understanding that it is not a personal choice. After studying some developmental psychology and reading papers on homosexuality, I have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not, by any means, a personal choice. Based on current scientific literature, it is not even linked to upbringing. There has long been established a hereditary link; the current progress is discovering a causal link by means of epigenetics.
If anyone believes homosexuality is a choice, please provide for me scientific, peer-reviewed, scholarly articles/journals/papers that demonstrate unequivocal evidence for this.
Now, moving on to the Qur'an, here is what we find
778 The earthquake took them, thus they became lifeless in their home.
779 Thus he turned away from them, and said "My people, I have delivered to you the message of my Lord and advised you; but you do not like the advisers."
780 And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
781 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
782 The only response of his people was "Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!"
783 We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who were destroyed.
784 And We rained down upon them a rain, so see how was the punishment for the criminals.1177 And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved by them and he felt discomfort for them and he said "This is a distressful day."
1178 And his people came rushing towards him, and before it they were committing sin, he said "My people, these are my daughters, they are purer for you, so be aware of God and do not disgrace me regarding my guests. Is there no wise man among you?"
1179 They said "You know we have no interest in your daughters, and you are aware of what we want!"
1180 He said "If only I had strength against you, or I could find for myself some powerful support."
1181 They said "O Lot, we are messengers of your Lord; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their scheduled time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
1182 So when Our command came, We made its highest part become its lowest, and We rained on it with hardened fiery projectiles.
1183 Marked from your Lord, and they are never far from the wicked.
1184 And to Midyan was their brother Shu'ayb, he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him, and do not give short in the measure and the weight. I see you in prosperity, and I fear for you the retribution of a day that is surrounding."26160 The people of Lot denied the messengers.
26161 For their brother Lot said to them "Will you not be righteous?"
26162 "I am to you a trustworthy messenger."
26163 "So be aware of God and obey me."
26164 "And I do not ask you for any wage, for my reward is upon the Lord of the worlds."
26165 "Do you approach the males of the worlds?"
26166 "And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!"
26167 They said "If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out."
26168 He said "I am in severe opposition to your acts!"
26169 "My Lord, save me and my family from what they do."
26170 So We saved him and his entire family.
26171 Except for an old woman who remained.
26172 Then We destroyed the others.
26173 And We rained upon them a rain. Miserable was the rain to those who had been warned.
26174 In that is a sign, but most of them are not believers.
26175 And that your Lord is the Noble, the Merciful.2928 And Lot, when he said to his people "You commit a lewdness that no others in the world have done before!"
2929 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!"
2930 He said "My Lord, grant me victory over the wicked people."
2931 And when Our messengers came to Abraham with good news, they said "We are to destroy the people of such a town, for its people have been wicked."
2932 He said "But Lot is in it!" They said "We are fully aware of who is in it. We will save him and his family, except his wife; she is of those doomed."
2933 And when Our messengers came to Lot, they were mistreated, and he was embarrassed towards them. And they said "Do not fear, and do not be saddened. We will save you and your family, except for your wife; she is of those doomed."
2934 "We will send down upon the people of this town an affliction from the heaven for what wickedness they were in."
2935 And We left remains of it as a clear sign for a people who comprehend.Thoughts? I really need clarification on this topic.
Hello,
it seems to be an interesting topic always.
You might want to see this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606167.msg345738#msg345738Peace
sun
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http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZhfIIYedfQ
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I have grown weary of religious "scholars" point to causes of homosexuality out of thin air. Dr. Zakir Naik began stating that he knew unequivocally the causes of homosexuality he said children who watch too much porn eventually become saturated by it and need something more, so they turn to homosexuality.
Zakir Naik has a good memory, but his arguments are often unconvincing. It escapes me why he pretends to know everything. If Zakir Naik happens to have a debate with a rational scientist, you can easily bet who'd win.
Coming back to the topic, I've always been puzzled about why the Koran seems to be against same-gender sex. I haven't found any answers, and I don't know if I'd will.
Nevertheless, it can be said that the Koran isn't talking about homosexuality when it says that no one in the world did it before. I read up a little on Sodom and Gomorrah. It's not just about gay sex. The people there were quite inhospitable, and probably used to sodomise visitors. You can definitely say that this would have been a new practice.
The Koran also talks about them going for men and leaving women. There's a hint of bisexuality here. Perhaps they were bisexuals, but chose to have sex with males only. We must also remember that they used to rob people and do other bad stuff. Lot's people wanted to have sex with his guests, and it's clear that they were not concerned with the guests' consent. It would've been forced.
I don't have any clear answers, and things will always be open to interpretation.
The one thing I can definitely agree with you on is that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. You don't need scientific paper to prove this. Just go and ask homosexuals. You'd get the answer. Just as easily as heterosexuals will tell you that they desired the opposite sex since the very beginning, homosexuals will tell you that they desired the same sex from the very beginning. Bisexuals will say they were attracted to both.
As for why it's put into the category of sin, I have no answer. But there's a verse in the Koran that says that every person has some good and some bad - only those succeed who improve their good.
There are many criminals out there who have a certain brain chemistry so they lack empathy. They don't mind killing people at all.
There are some people who get angry quite easily, and the Koran says you must let go of anger.
There are paedophiles who go after children. Perhaps they lack desire for adults? They ought to control their desires too.
So perhaps homosexuality is also ingrained in some people, and it's our responsibility not to indulge in it. That's the only reconciliation that I've found so far.
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Would you mind telling us what you mean by this stupid satire?
I just wanna make fun of retards who claim that Quran isnt against homosexuality when it clearly is, it says that more than 5 times. I believe in Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. They are making fun of Quran, God and creation that has been attacked through mainstream media which openly promote luciferian ideology.
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God made different gender for certain reason,one of it is growing of Population.Having sex with opposit gender should led to a new Human,it?s likie eating a beatiful sweat fruit,attracted by its colour,smell,look and shape you deliver its corn with your dum.
Having sex with the same gender is like eating cultivated Grapes bad taste and no seeds,its serves for nothing just to fill your stomache.Homosexuality just fills you desire and serves not for the Population.
So in my View beeing gay is not sinful but to live a homosexual life and not beeing fruitful,is disliked by god.So are People choosing a Lifestyle of a single,like Monks although doing good deeds like most gays living a formidable life,are against the will of God to be fruitful.
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Peace be upon you.
I understand that the verses on homosexuality are in reference to Lut's people. Before I cite those, I want to state that at the present moment, I am unequivocally against homophobia. I don't believe homosexuality can be considered sinful under the understanding that it is not a personal choice. After studying some developmental psychology and reading papers on homosexuality, I have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not, by any means, a personal choice. Based on current scientific literature, it is not even linked to upbringing. There has long been established a hereditary link; the current progress is discovering a causal link by means of epigenetics.
I'm of the opinion that you're right. For all those wondering, there has been a series of documentaries which focuses on heritability among other things, and in one episode, it touches on the issue of homosexuality http//vimeo.com/album/2907736/video/19869748
At a part in this video, we come to twins, one of which is gay while the other isn't so. The explanation given is that while they are genetically identical people, they have differing epigenetics (i.e. they have the same genes but they express genes differently, through no choice of their own). We can reasonably come to the conclusion that some people are simply born homosexual, and I think it is simply unproductive to think otherwise.
As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them ?Will ye not fear (Allah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!?
They said ?If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!?
He said ?I do detest your doings.? (Surat ash-Shuara 160-16Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars. (Surat al-'Anqabut 2-3)
Allah knows best.
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I just wanna make fun of retards who claim that Quran isnt against homosexuality when it clearly is, it says that more than 5 times. I believe in Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. They are making fun of Quran, God and creation that has been attacked through mainstream media which openly promote luciferian ideology.
And please watch your etiquette. Do you really think it is becoming of a believer to make a mockery of others? Take heed.
Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
And the parable of an evil Word is that of an evil tree It is torn up by the root from the surface of the earth it has no stability
(Surat 'Ibrahim 24-26) -
There are many ways of being impolite, and the most straighforward is not necessarily the worst. People who read other people answers just enough or with enough attention to be able to throw disparaging answers which are not such answers and inuendo are far less polite because they are disguised as politeness.
This thread, I would say, is not particularly polite.
Salaam
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Most of the threads I have come across here usually are impolite. My intention was to gain leverage of respect for our fellow brothers and sisters who struggle with a condition. This issue of separating the desire from the action is just a lawyer's trick, and I'll explain why.
It's easy to say desire is not the sin, but the action is. Well, we can apply that to heterosexuals too, but we don't say that all their sexual desires cannot be acted upon. For homosexuals, they are completely blocked off and forbidden from sexual activity that they are inclined towards. What has this led to? So many homosexuals struggle enough with bullying as they grow older, but what's worse is when they are bullied by their own families, as well, and are told that their condition will lead them to sin. Don't play the game by saying the desire is perfectly fine but the action is not.
I am interested very much in the psychology, because these attempts at "treating" or "curing" homosexuality lead to severe blow-back; suppression is a very dangerous method to use.
We really shouldn't waste time on the semantics, though I understand they are important to a degree, but most of the responses here are tangential and are just assuming it is absurd to care about root cause. You don't have to understand why I'm interested in the root causes, if you haven't understood already; if you want to reply, just simply answer my original questions without berating my intentions.
Honestly, what does it matter what we believe if we can't follow the basics of our deen? For the individual calling me a "retard," if you believe I am ignorant and you follow the Qur'an, then why don't you apply the following verse in your mannerisms
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O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.Are we so blind that we can't follow even the simplest, most basic aspects of courtesy?
I was quite clear what I was requesting in my original post, but it is also quite clear, as Allah states in the Qur'an, the human being is most argumentative.
However, thank you to those who did provide actual substance which was insightful. Allah bless you all.
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Peace be upon you.
I'm of the opinion that you're right. For all those wondering, there has been a series of documentaries which focuses on heritability among other things, and in one episode, it touches on the issue of homosexuality http//vimeo.com/album/2907736/video/19869748
At a part in this video, we come to twins, one of which is gay while the other isn't so. The explanation given is that while they are genetically identical people, they have differing epigenetics (i.e. they have the same genes but they express genes differently, through no choice of their own). We can reasonably come to the conclusion that some people are simply born homosexual, and I think it is simply unproductive to think otherwise.
As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them ?Will ye not fear (Allah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!?
They said ?If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!?
He said ?I do detest your doings.? (Surat ash-Shuara 160-16Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars. (Surat al-'Anqabut 2-3)
Allah knows best.
Alhamdulillah, very-well said. The issue is clearing for me.
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Peace,
I would say that being unkind/hostile is in that case just as much sin as practicing homosexuality. So "do not throw a stone in a glasshouse" as we Swedes tend to have as a saying, or before you remove the splinter from your brother's eye, remove the dirt in your own first, so you can see clear enough to help your brother.
And oppression is worse than murder, so be mindful of how you treat others, because this oppression can be worse than their homosexuality as potential sin.
Homosexuality triggers much anger as a topic. I have seen a few derailed topics since I joined the forum. How about their case is a test for people and showing hypocrisy.
Be whole
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Peace Recite.
You said As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
While I agree with your statement, I disagree with the word " homosexuality". What does it mean? That is the issue.
Some may take it only desiring, others may take it living with the same sex...etc.
So yes ,desiring without taking the action is not a sin. Our minds desire all sorts of things,good and bad.
Going through with our action is what we are held accountable for.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
You said As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
While I agree with your statement, I disagree with the word " homosexuality". What does it mean? That is the issue.
Peace be upon you, good logic.
As per common vernacular in my region, I use the word "homosexuality" as a reference to the corresponding property of some individuals, i.e. being homosexual. We know that being homosexual precisely entails sexual attraction to members of the same sex. Being homosexual does not in any way entail an action, e.g. living with a man of the same sex, using your example.
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Peace Recite.
ho?mo?sex?u?al
1.somebody attracted to same sex somebody who is sexually attracted to members of his or her own sex
2.attracted to same sex sexually attracted to members of the same sex
3.of homosexuality relating to sexual attraction or activity among members of the same sexHomosexuality can be all 3?
You only take it as 1 or 2? then,Understood. Thanks for clarifying.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace, brothers and sisters.
I believe we are using "homosexual" as a reference to sexual orientation which does not entail action, but rather, inclination. So to hopefully put it to rest, we are using "homosexual" to refer to the attraction, not the behavior related to the attraction. At least, that's what I meant when I used it in my original post.
From a Wikipedia entry
As a sexual orientation, homosexuality is "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions" primarily or exclusively to people of the same sex.
Moving on, while I could be wrong as I don't have any evidence, I believe the behavior of engaging sexually with someone of the same sex without having attraction to them is rare and unnatural, but I haven't heard of this happening before. If anyone else has, kindly provide evidence as this would be particularly useful information I would think it is possible under some state of mental alteration that this behavior could potentially happen, and it is this particular case I think may have been present in Lut's people. Please read the following verse
1572
By your life, indeed they were, in their intoxication, wandering blindly.1572
By your life, they are in their drunkenness, blundering.If anyone is still unclear as to what I am looking for, I hope this post clarifies it. Unequivocally, we can see that the people of Lut were punished for a culmination of misdeeds beyond homosexual behavior. Furthermore, we can see that they were in a state of intoxication/drunkenness. It is plausible that their behaviors were influenced by their mental alteration, and this would provide some insight.
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There is evidence showing that homosexuality has existed long, long before the people of Lot.Can you please provide this evidence?
From a Wikipedia entry
9660 to 5000 BCE
Mesolithic rock art in Sicily depicts phallic male figures in pairs that have been interpreted variously, including as hunters, acrobats, religious initiates and depictions of male homosexual intercourse.This was from a quick search, as I have forgotten the exact dates and references to which I was referring. I will continue researching, as I encourage you to, as well, to confirm. Beyond this, our distant cousins such as the bonobo apes display homosexual and heterosexual behaviors, so it is evident in our evolutionary past.
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Peace all,
It is always unfortunate to see engaging debates being hijacked by members who are given to discourteous remarks and ineffectual contributions.
I remind members that any form of name calling violates the Free Minds forum rules.
Violating members have been warned.
Further violations will be rewarded with disciplinary action.
Usamah