What is the Qur'ans stance on homosexuality?
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Peace be upon you.
I understand that the verses on homosexuality are in reference to Lut's people. Before I cite those, I want to state that at the present moment, I am unequivocally against homophobia. I don't believe homosexuality can be considered sinful under the understanding that it is not a personal choice. After studying some developmental psychology and reading papers on homosexuality, I have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not, by any means, a personal choice. Based on current scientific literature, it is not even linked to upbringing. There has long been established a hereditary link; the current progress is discovering a causal link by means of epigenetics.
I'm of the opinion that you're right. For all those wondering, there has been a series of documentaries which focuses on heritability among other things, and in one episode, it touches on the issue of homosexuality http//vimeo.com/album/2907736/video/19869748
At a part in this video, we come to twins, one of which is gay while the other isn't so. The explanation given is that while they are genetically identical people, they have differing epigenetics (i.e. they have the same genes but they express genes differently, through no choice of their own). We can reasonably come to the conclusion that some people are simply born homosexual, and I think it is simply unproductive to think otherwise.
As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them ?Will ye not fear (Allah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!?
They said ?If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!?
He said ?I do detest your doings.? (Surat ash-Shuara 160-16Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars. (Surat al-'Anqabut 2-3)
Allah knows best.
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I just wanna make fun of retards who claim that Quran isnt against homosexuality when it clearly is, it says that more than 5 times. I believe in Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. They are making fun of Quran, God and creation that has been attacked through mainstream media which openly promote luciferian ideology.
And please watch your etiquette. Do you really think it is becoming of a believer to make a mockery of others? Take heed.
Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
And the parable of an evil Word is that of an evil tree It is torn up by the root from the surface of the earth it has no stability
(Surat 'Ibrahim 24-26) -
There are many ways of being impolite, and the most straighforward is not necessarily the worst. People who read other people answers just enough or with enough attention to be able to throw disparaging answers which are not such answers and inuendo are far less polite because they are disguised as politeness.
This thread, I would say, is not particularly polite.
Salaam
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Most of the threads I have come across here usually are impolite. My intention was to gain leverage of respect for our fellow brothers and sisters who struggle with a condition. This issue of separating the desire from the action is just a lawyer's trick, and I'll explain why.
It's easy to say desire is not the sin, but the action is. Well, we can apply that to heterosexuals too, but we don't say that all their sexual desires cannot be acted upon. For homosexuals, they are completely blocked off and forbidden from sexual activity that they are inclined towards. What has this led to? So many homosexuals struggle enough with bullying as they grow older, but what's worse is when they are bullied by their own families, as well, and are told that their condition will lead them to sin. Don't play the game by saying the desire is perfectly fine but the action is not.
I am interested very much in the psychology, because these attempts at "treating" or "curing" homosexuality lead to severe blow-back; suppression is a very dangerous method to use.
We really shouldn't waste time on the semantics, though I understand they are important to a degree, but most of the responses here are tangential and are just assuming it is absurd to care about root cause. You don't have to understand why I'm interested in the root causes, if you haven't understood already; if you want to reply, just simply answer my original questions without berating my intentions.
Honestly, what does it matter what we believe if we can't follow the basics of our deen? For the individual calling me a "retard," if you believe I am ignorant and you follow the Qur'an, then why don't you apply the following verse in your mannerisms
4911
O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.Are we so blind that we can't follow even the simplest, most basic aspects of courtesy?
I was quite clear what I was requesting in my original post, but it is also quite clear, as Allah states in the Qur'an, the human being is most argumentative.
However, thank you to those who did provide actual substance which was insightful. Allah bless you all.
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Peace be upon you.
I'm of the opinion that you're right. For all those wondering, there has been a series of documentaries which focuses on heritability among other things, and in one episode, it touches on the issue of homosexuality http//vimeo.com/album/2907736/video/19869748
At a part in this video, we come to twins, one of which is gay while the other isn't so. The explanation given is that while they are genetically identical people, they have differing epigenetics (i.e. they have the same genes but they express genes differently, through no choice of their own). We can reasonably come to the conclusion that some people are simply born homosexual, and I think it is simply unproductive to think otherwise.
As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them ?Will ye not fear (Allah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!?
They said ?If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!?
He said ?I do detest your doings.? (Surat ash-Shuara 160-16Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried? But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars. (Surat al-'Anqabut 2-3)
Allah knows best.
Alhamdulillah, very-well said. The issue is clearing for me.
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Peace,
I would say that being unkind/hostile is in that case just as much sin as practicing homosexuality. So "do not throw a stone in a glasshouse" as we Swedes tend to have as a saying, or before you remove the splinter from your brother's eye, remove the dirt in your own first, so you can see clear enough to help your brother.
And oppression is worse than murder, so be mindful of how you treat others, because this oppression can be worse than their homosexuality as potential sin.
Homosexuality triggers much anger as a topic. I have seen a few derailed topics since I joined the forum. How about their case is a test for people and showing hypocrisy.
Be whole
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Peace Recite.
You said As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
While I agree with your statement, I disagree with the word " homosexuality". What does it mean? That is the issue.
Some may take it only desiring, others may take it living with the same sex...etc.
So yes ,desiring without taking the action is not a sin. Our minds desire all sorts of things,good and bad.
Going through with our action is what we are held accountable for.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
You said As for my honest opinion, homosexuality is not a sin, but for someone to approach another of the same sex with desire is forbidden. I have felt this desire before, but with God's help, I will never approach a man with it.
While I agree with your statement, I disagree with the word " homosexuality". What does it mean? That is the issue.
Peace be upon you, good logic.
As per common vernacular in my region, I use the word "homosexuality" as a reference to the corresponding property of some individuals, i.e. being homosexual. We know that being homosexual precisely entails sexual attraction to members of the same sex. Being homosexual does not in any way entail an action, e.g. living with a man of the same sex, using your example.
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Peace Recite.
ho?mo?sex?u?al
1.somebody attracted to same sex somebody who is sexually attracted to members of his or her own sex
2.attracted to same sex sexually attracted to members of the same sex
3.of homosexuality relating to sexual attraction or activity among members of the same sexHomosexuality can be all 3?
You only take it as 1 or 2? then,Understood. Thanks for clarifying.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace, brothers and sisters.
I believe we are using "homosexual" as a reference to sexual orientation which does not entail action, but rather, inclination. So to hopefully put it to rest, we are using "homosexual" to refer to the attraction, not the behavior related to the attraction. At least, that's what I meant when I used it in my original post.
From a Wikipedia entry
As a sexual orientation, homosexuality is "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions" primarily or exclusively to people of the same sex.
Moving on, while I could be wrong as I don't have any evidence, I believe the behavior of engaging sexually with someone of the same sex without having attraction to them is rare and unnatural, but I haven't heard of this happening before. If anyone else has, kindly provide evidence as this would be particularly useful information I would think it is possible under some state of mental alteration that this behavior could potentially happen, and it is this particular case I think may have been present in Lut's people. Please read the following verse
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By your life, indeed they were, in their intoxication, wandering blindly.1572
By your life, they are in their drunkenness, blundering.If anyone is still unclear as to what I am looking for, I hope this post clarifies it. Unequivocally, we can see that the people of Lut were punished for a culmination of misdeeds beyond homosexual behavior. Furthermore, we can see that they were in a state of intoxication/drunkenness. It is plausible that their behaviors were influenced by their mental alteration, and this would provide some insight.
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There is evidence showing that homosexuality has existed long, long before the people of Lot.Can you please provide this evidence?
From a Wikipedia entry
9660 to 5000 BCE
Mesolithic rock art in Sicily depicts phallic male figures in pairs that have been interpreted variously, including as hunters, acrobats, religious initiates and depictions of male homosexual intercourse.This was from a quick search, as I have forgotten the exact dates and references to which I was referring. I will continue researching, as I encourage you to, as well, to confirm. Beyond this, our distant cousins such as the bonobo apes display homosexual and heterosexual behaviors, so it is evident in our evolutionary past.
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Peace all,
It is always unfortunate to see engaging debates being hijacked by members who are given to discourteous remarks and ineffectual contributions.
I remind members that any form of name calling violates the Free Minds forum rules.
Violating members have been warned.
Further violations will be rewarded with disciplinary action.
Usamah
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That the story of Lot and the events of the end days of Sodom are in the Qur'an is not in dispute, nor is the acceptance of Lot's words as being those of a Messenger of Allah.
However, the question of 'homosexual acts' is not so much the issue- the underlying issue is that of persons committing fornication or adultery (both extramarital sexual relations). Note that Lot includes 'approaching men sexually' and 'committing lewdness' among a number of other acts that are a detriment to society. Given the context of Lot's pronouncements, one can see they might be in reference to the commission of rape- but, absent of the charge of rape, the only conclusion is that it is an essentially fornication or an adulterous act- itself a sin that carries with it a punishment of 100 lashes (no death, no stoning, as the hadithistas would have us believe). Rape itself is a crime of a different order, and is charged and punished separately from fornication or adultery, and requires a different standard of proof than the other cases.
As it is essentially adultery or fornication, we are still left with the burden of proof as far as any legal action is concerned under Islamic law. As noted with the case of chaste women accused of adultery or fornication (an-Nur 244) there must be four witnesses to the act- the same standard would be presumed to apply to male/male relations as well.
(As I understand the meanings, 'fornication' involves two unmarried persons, while 'adultery' involves at least one married person.)
The Qur'an does not mention female/female relations, and Lot specifically mentions 'sexually approaching males' so one might make the argument that genital/genital or genital/anal penetration is the defining act of sexual intercourse- in which case, female/female relations are essentially exempt from blame, while placing the burden of compliance on males. (Even the hadithistas cannot argue this point, as one of their hadiths has the Prophet questioning a man who has confessed to adultery, and in this questioning he defines intercourse as genital penetration- without this, there can be no charge of adultery, or even fornication- and even this, according to the Qur'an, must be confirmed by four witnesses if one or both deny the charge.)
Thus, it is my thought that while the 'desire' to 'approach a man sexually' is not a sin, the act of penetration (but not simple touching, kissing, or even oral stimulation) is the defining act of sexual intercourse and thus is punishable under the standards already referred to in the Qur'an- there must be four witnesses to the act, and the punishment is 100 lashes.
We are left with the understanding that, for the purposes of this topic, sexual relations between men (i.e. genital/anal) is indeed a sin, and is punishable as fornication or adultery with 100 lashes.
The only question remaining is, if the offenders are punished on earth for their crime does the acceptance and completion of this punishment essentially "erase" the sin when the person is standing before Allah? Or is the punishment simply a mechanism to demonstrate the harmful nature of fornication and/or adultery to a society in general, and the sin will still be weighed in judgement before Allah, regardless if the punishment is meted out or not?
In the end, it is up to the individuals to police themselves and their actions. If they want to avoid having to answer to Allah for the sin of fornication or adultery, the choice is simple avoid it altogether. At the same time, if they want to avoid having to answer to the public on these charges (and thus the required 100 lashes), they must avoid putting themselves in a position to where their intimate actions become a public spectacle.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
My understanding is that homosexuality is not against the Deen. My understanding is that homosexual acts in and of themselves are also not against the Deen.
Here are the reasons why
The people of Lot were approaching other people out of lust. It isn't permissible to approach other people out of lust regardless of sexual orientation.
781 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
2755 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are an ignorant people."
The (men among) the people of Lot left their wives for homosexual activity. Sexual liaison with other than a spouse (for one married) is called adultery, and adultery is a gross sin.
1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.
The people of Lot engaged in a practice never seen before. Some people rationalize and say that this refers to a practice not seen before in a civilization, but homosexuality in Mesopotamia predates the people of Lot by at least 1000 years based on existing physical evidence--and that was a civilized society.
http//www.aish.com/ci/sam/48931527.html
http//www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2003/abraham.html
The people of Lot also engaged in highway robbery and other vice.
2929 "You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society." But the only response from his people was to say "Bring us the retribution of GOD, if you are being truthful!"
In all species that reproduce sexually, homosexuality has been found. It is prevalent in nature. It is a given that we aren't to emulate animals--but the fact that is found in ALL sexually producing species is telling. We are even told that the Almighty doesn't shy away from the example of a mosquito--and there are homosexual mosquitos.
"... No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue."
source http//www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
Additional links
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
http//www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X
226 GOD does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say "What does GOD intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
http//www.biolbull.org/content/149/2/365.short
http//rierc.org/social/paper162.pdf
ALLAH has created gay animals, including gay humans. Homosexuality has not put a spanner in the works, yet--in any known species. It may have even created some advantages in nature.
"In some cases, homosexual alliances may even be adaptive, helping individuals defend territories, advance their social status, or get help with parental care."
-- Australian biologist Geoff MacFarlane in a new study of gay birds' behavior spanning 93 species of birds.
http//www.nature.com/news/2010/100709/full/news.2010.344.html
http//www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347210001855
Modern science and medicine recognize homosexuality as being normal.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom GOD has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation (Bell, Weinberg & Hammersmith, 1981; Bullough, 1976; Ford & Beach 1951 ; Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948; Kinsey, Pomeroy, Martin, & Gebhard, 1953 ).
http//www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx
However, even IF homosexuality was some "deformity"...
4817 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there any burden on the sick. And whoever obeys GOD and His messenger, He will admit them into gardens with rivers flowing beneath them; and whoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution.
ALLAH has created people with differences, and this is okay.
3022 And from His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your tongues and your colors. In that are signs for the world.
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
There is also the fact that we aren't to be ugly to others
436 And serve GOD and do not set up anything with Him, and do good to the parents, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the neighbor who is a relative, and the neighbor nearby, and the friend nearby, and the wayfarer, and those maintained by your oaths. GOD does not love the arrogant, the boastful.
486 And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. GOD is Reckoning over all things.
494 O you who believe, if you go forth in the cause of GOD, you shall investigate carefully. And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!" You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with GOD are many riches. That is how you were before, but GOD graced you, so investigate carefully. GOD is expert over what you do.
244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until GOD judges. And He is the best of judges.
58 O you who believe, stand for GOD and be witnesses for justice, and let not the hatred towards a people make you avoid being just. Be just, for it is closer to righteousness, and be aware of GOD. GOD is expert over what you do.
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
There is even Qur'anic evidence that same sex marriage is allowed.
424 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.
425 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
426 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And GOD is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness - to be independent - not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
A strong argument can be made that those who deter same sex marriages are encouraging fornication and adultery. &
235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.
The word mates is gender neutral, by the way.
My position is one of inclusion. Homosexuals are welcome in the Deen. If a person wants to exclude others from the Deen, they'd better be VERY sure about their reasons and grounds for doing so--sure enough to risk damnation on the Day of Judgment. Choose wisely. We are not to oppress anybody, not even those that clearly fall outside of the Deen.
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of GOD; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
4242 The error is upon those who oppress the people, and they aggress in the land without cause. For these will be a painful retribution.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Here is an argument in list form. ISA it may make for easier reading.
Acknowledge that AQ is not ridiculous.
Acknowledge that physical evidence is not ridiculous.
Refute that ALLAH created people with differences, as is stated in AQ 3022.
Refute that ALLAH gave us signs in nature, as is stated in AQ 226 and 2164.
Refute that ALLAH created homosexual animals, as are found in nature.
Refute that AQ 2929 lists reasons aside from male homosexuality that the people of Lot might have been destroyed.
Refute that there is no compulsion in the Deen, as is stated in AQ 2256.
Refute that homosexuality is depicted in cave paintings that physically exist that have been dated to be around 12,000 years old.
Refute that homosexuality existed at least 5,000 years ago among humans in Mesopotamia, as is found among physical existing evidence.
Refute that the people of Lot were destroyed around 1953 BCE.
Refute that circa 3000 BCE is before 1953 BCE.
Refute that over a thousand years span the time between the recorded homosexual acts in Mesopotamia and the time that the people of Lot were destroyed.
Refute that AQ 780 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."
Acknowledge that no person alive was present among the people of Lot.
Refute that AQ 1736 states not to uphold what one has no knowledge of.
Acknowledge that physical evidence can comprise knowledge.
Acknowledge that knowledge is better than conjecture.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of GOD over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. GOD is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Refute that a homosexual relationship is beyond this.
781 "You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
Refute that approaching people lustfully (men or women) is transgression.
415 And those of your women who commit lewdness , you shall bring four witnesses over them from among you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or GOD makes for them a way out.
Refute that even if l-fishata means homosexual acts, no punishment is applied without four witnesses.
Acknowledge that the Qur'an is fully detailed and enough for a believer.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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Unequivocally, we can see that the people of Lut were punished for a culmination of misdeeds beyond homosexual behavior. Furthermore, we can see that they were in a state of intoxication/drunkenness. It is plausible that their behaviors were influenced by their mental alteration, and this would provide some insight.
I'll agree on the idea that the people of Lut were punished for more than just their approach of the same sex.
Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings evil. (Surat Al-'Anqabut 29)
However It's clear to me that approaching members of the same sex is one of those evils. While I don't believe there is a prescribed earthly punishment, I don't deny the opinion that there may be punishment for this in the life to come.
And his people came hastening to him, and before they had been doing evil deeds. He said, "O my people, these are my daughters; they are purer for you. So fear Allah and do not disgrace me concerning my guests. Is there not among you a man of reason?" (Surat Hud 7
Moving on, while I could be wrong as I don't have any evidence, I believe the behavior of engaging sexually with someone of the same sex without having attraction to them is rare and unnatural, but I haven't heard of this happening before. If anyone else has, kindly provide evidence as this would be particularly useful information I would think it is possible under some state of mental alteration that this behavior could potentially happen, and it is this particular case I think may have been present in Lut's people.
Perhaps approaching someone of the same sex without attraction for them is unnatural, but it seems to me that this isn't the explicit sin here. The people of Lut appear to have been approaching those of the same sex with lust, and the text makes no reference to the attraction of one person to another. In either case, it seems homosexuality is not the culprit here, but rather that practicing sexual acts with someone of the same sex is the sin.
Allah knows best.
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As I noted in my prior post, I don't believe the injunction is for homosexual behavior in and of itself. I believe the injunction is upon it only when, if carried to the extent actual penetration, it necessarily meets the criteria of either fornication or adultery, and thus is a sin and meets the standard to which the punishment of 100 lashes is applicable. At the very least it is sinful and those involved will certainly have those sins weighed in the balance by Allah, and if it is openly displayed to the point it disrupts society (hence the four witness rule) then the earthly punishment is invoked as well as a reminder to maintain an ordered society.
The question, as I posed earlier, still remains- is the commission of this sin any lesser or any greater than the commission of any other sin? Is a same-sex intercourse event the same order of sin as, say, eating pork or theft? There is a lot of banter in the non-Muslim world about the attitude toward 'gays' in the Islamic view, but in fact is it (for lack of better words, Allah forgive me) really 'just another sin' that we recognize? If so, why has it gained so much prominence in the world's view of Islam, if not from the hadithistas themselves MAKING it a larger (and much misrepresented) issue than it was intended to be?
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The question, as I posed earlier, still remains- is the commission of this sin any lesser or any greater than the commission of any other sin? Is a same-sex intercourse event the same order of sin as, say, eating pork or theft?
This is my honest opinion, and by no means do I consider it definitive, but since there to me looks to be little comparison between sins in the Qur'an (alone), I think it's sort of a difficult thing to come up with a ranked list of sins. Obviously there are the gravest sins like shirk and murder of innocents, but I can't recall any great distinction in magnitude between the others. The wilful commission of any sin appears to be a very bad thing if not for a good reason. However, intuition leads me to believe that same-sex intercourse is worse than regular zina because it is mentioned specifically, as opposed to the Qur'an mentioning simply that the people of Lut committed zina. Hopefully this seems logical to you.
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This is my honest opinion, and by no means do I consider it definitive, but since there to me looks to be little comparison between sins in the Qur'an (alone), I think it's sort of a difficult thing to come up with a ranked list of sins. Obviously there are the gravest sins like shirk and murder of innocents, but I can't recall any great distinction in magnitude between the others. The wilful commission of any sin appears to be a very bad thing if not for a good reason. However, intuition leads me to believe that same-sex intercourse is worse than regular zina because it is mentioned specifically, as opposed to the Qur'an mentioning simply that the people of Lut committed zina. Hopefully this seems logical to you.
I am content to concur with this assessment, Recite. On to the next Burning Issue )
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I have been researching on this for a while now. Note that I am straight. The thing is that since I live in California I meet many of those homosexual people. They are in my school. They are at work. They are everywhere. And with all honesty, I do not think they can ever be straight. When I read the verses about sodom and gomorrah I feel as if Allah's anger was directed towards straight men who went homosexual just for indulgence. This is the hint 'In preference to women, you satisfy your lust with men.' Homosexuals have no interest in opposite sex. They just can't do it.
Allah confirms of such men in the verse below
"And tell the believing women to reduce of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which appears thereof and to wrap their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire"2431Since Allah does not give us instructions on how to treat homosexuals I think we should just let them be what they are. How can we take decisions for them when Allah has made them as such?
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Peace Abdul-Hadi,
Refute that AQ 780 refers to lewdness "such as none of the worlds had done before."
These people most importantly ransomed the people that traveled the regions and often kept them as slaves and they abused them down to their very bodies. In the narration they intend to capture the angels (disguised as humans) to take them into their strange practices.
The crime is not exactly homosexuality in the narration, but they seek things beyond their own families and what they rightfully possess. It could be that the angels in disguise may look very attractive to a polluted mind.
Refute that even if l-fishata means homosexual acts, no punishment is applied without four witnesses.
I do not believe that "l-fishata" is exclusively necessarily those acts, but crimes that you commit. You must admit that bringing four witnesses to testify to punish for something means that you have done something really bad and that someone is wronged in the matter. The word is connoted to immorality, but what is immorality? Sure, adultery, but that is having sex with someone that is somebody else's partner. The crime there is that someone is hurt in the process of doing the actual adultery, because there is trust that is broken. The betrayed man or woman is the one that is the reason in any case why the involved persons ought to be punished in any way. The question is whether it is not easier to just ignore the woman or man that betrayed you and divorce rather than the hassle to punish them. Just a lot of work to seek revenge, particularly if you require four witnesses. Obviously the person was not worth you and of low moral standard.
3134 The ones who spend in prosperity and hardship, and who repress anger and who pardon the people; God loves the good doers...
3135 ...and those who, if they commit lewdness/immorality (l-fishata), or/and hence wrong themselves, they regard God and seek forgiveness for their sins. And who can forgive the sins except God? And they do not persist in what they have done while they know.Personally, (l-fish), refers to all sorts of crimes that you can do that are immoral. For various reasons it has slipped unto the track of meaning purely things about sex.
780 And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit immorality such as none of those of the worlds had done before??
781 ?You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women/family! Indeed, you are a transgressing people.?
782 The only response of his people was ?Drive them out of your town; they are a people who wish to be pure!?They not only approached them, but kept them completely.
2928 And Lot, when he said to his people ?You commit an immorality that no others in the world have done before!?
2929 ?You sexually approach men, and you commit highway robbery, and you bring all vice to your society.? But the only response from his people was to say ?Bring us the retribution of God, if you are being truthful!?It is also a very interesting phenomenon that the whole population would be tempted to homosexuality. I think there is something not right in the interpretation. I think they just kept the travelers or people from conquered regions, regardless female or male, as slaves like prison-like harems and took all their possessions. It is likely the humiliation of the bodies of the people they took as slaves that is the biggest issue in the whole narration. It is oppression and injustice.
Sorry, this is an extract from the dictionary, but the formatting is apparently not compatible with this forum.
shame 1 S2 / em / noun 1 it?s a shame/what a shame etc spoken used when you wish a situation was different, and you feel sad or disappointed ?She?s failed her test again.? ?What a shame!? It?s a shame that you have to leave so soon. What a shame we missed the wedding. It's a shame about the weather. it is a shame to do something It?s a shame to cover this beautiful table with a tablecloth. I can?t imagine why they canceled your show, Tracy. That?s such a shame . a crying/great/terrible shame It was a crying shame that they lost the game. Register In written English, people usually say something is unfortunate rather than a shame It?s unfortunate that these warnings were not taken seriously. 2 the feeling you have when you feel guilty and embarrassed because you, or someone who is close to you, have done something wrong He felt a deep sense of shame. Maria blushed with shame. To her shame (= it made her feel ashamed ) , she gained back all the weight she?d lost. He?s brought shame on the whole family. hang/bow your head in shame (= look down, or feel like you should look down, because you feel so ashamed ) I bow my head in shame when I think of how I treated her. There?s no shame in (= it should not make you feel ashamed ) saying ?I don?t know.? 3 the ability to feel shame How could you do such a thing? Have you no shame ? 4 shame on you/him/them etc spoken used to say that someone should feel guilty or embarrassed because of something they have done Shame on you, Fred. I thought you were my friend! 5 put somebody/something to shame to be so much better than someone or something else that it makes the other thing seem very bad or ordinary His cooking puts mine to shame. THESAURUS shame the feeling you have when you feel guilty and embarrassed because you, or someone who is close to you, have done something wrong She never overcame the shame of having abandoned her children. | He remembered his angry words with a deep sense of shame. | Following the scandal, Garrison resigned in shame. humiliation a feeling of shame and embarrassment because you have been made to look weak or stupid in front of other people What really upset me was the humiliation of having to ask her for money. | He suffered the humiliation of defeat in the first round of the competition. dishonour British English , dishonor American English formal the loss of other people?s respect because you have done something bad, or you have been unsuccessful His comments have brought shame and dishonour on him and his profession. | There is no dishonour in failure when you have done everything you possibly can to succeed. stigma the feeling that other people in society disapprove of you because of something that has happened to you, or because you feel different from most other people in some way ? used especially when this seems unfair and unreasonable Even when someone has been found innocent of a crime, the stigma often remains. | At first I found the stigma of being unemployed very difficult to cope with. | In many countries there is still a strong social stigma attached to homosexuality. gGreat shame disgrace a complete loss of people?s respect because you have done something very bad and shocking His actions brought disgrace on the family. | The players were sent home in disgrace after admitting taking drugs. | Garton killed himself because he could not bear the disgrace of being charged with corruption. ignominy formal a feeling of great shame and embarrassment because you have been made to look weak or stupid ? a very formal use The team suffered the ignominy of losing five games in a row. | She hoped to avoid the ignominy of having to appear in court.
The point with the Arabic word is also whenever someone feels shame (hurt) over something that somebody has done, then the matter of this law comes into play. The crime by other means needs to in some way be something that hurts someone, such as real adultery (break of trust between married couple), theft, murder, betrayal of trust etc. Shame is deeply connoted to a failure in keeping the trust you had for someone.
Adultery is, however, by state law in the Western world not regarded as a crime, so there is no way you can legally punish someone for doing adultery. It was decriminalized many years ago in most developed countries. Thus punishing someone for adultery is literally taking the law into your own hands, which is a crime in itself. Adultery is hence an immoral action and a shame, but not on criminal level so that you can punish someone. Adultery is still considered a very foul and distasteful act and the person is often punished indirectly by being regarded a person of low standard by people who have not fallen away from God completely.
Acts such as adultery is usually in the Middle-East called bringing dishonor/shame on the family and it is from this way acts are criminalized, but the real issue is that someone is hurt emotionally. This is why crimes are punished. No matter whether you punish someone or does not punish someone the person will be punished anyway, so revenge is often not so fruitful as one may think and working to repair things is better than act out in fury over something. Do not fight fire with fire. A psychological punishment is usually just as effective as a physical one or in fact even more effective. Ruining someone's life psychologically is worse than coming upfront with them and giving them a straight right. The moral family suffering from the person who, for example, performed the adultery crime can and should help punish the culprit by non-physical means so hence God's will can be done without any governmental intervention.
And sorry I delved into something else when the topic was homosexuality. Sadly, for you, is that it has never been directly written in the commandments from God about homosexuality. God created the human and made a partner from that human, is what we know, and male and female created God them.
But please do not involve punishments for immorality and zina into this discussion. It is just that path Satan wants us to take, to bring the law into our own hands because we detest this phenomenon with homosexuality. So many women have been stoned to death already in history and now it is the gays' turn?
Be whole