To Those Who Prohibit Reciting Prophet's Name For Shahadat and Duroot.

Armanaziz

I disagree like this

C We can still pray for our parents, family, friends etc. First of all, we know them, second of all they are alive.
A prophet is not alive, and second of all we know nothing about the prophets except folklore and stories. They lived very, very long ago, so what do we really know? Nothing. Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it? People claim to love the prophet, when actually what they really love is their mental image that they have constructed based on all stories they have heard. This image may have nothing to do with the real person who once lived. Just look at Christianity.

B We can still exchange everyday salaams, but what's the point sending salaams on dead people?! This cannot be compared with greeting your shop keeper. Why would you send a greeting of peace to someone who's not present?!

The whole issue is that people address those who have passed away. What do people think they will achieve by this? Do they think the passed away ones will gain more comfort and peace, or be forgiven because of these posthumously sent prayers? Isn't THIS life the only chance we get? Isn't it a bit too late to send prayers and greetings when someone has already passed away? All these people achieve is that they end up investing alot of their mental focus on passed away people. Is this really useful?

The big question is WHY do we send prayers, greetings and salaams on passed away people? WHY? And please, let's not say it is because we love them. That's idol worship to direct your prayers and attention on someone already passed away who cannot harm nor benefit you.

At least this is my current understanding.

Peace

Thanks to brother Zulf for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciate.

However, I have to say - your response did not seem to address my specific question. I am specifically talking about the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah" as we see in Qur'an (7194, 1066 etc.) Whether or not we can greet dead people or wish blessing on someone we don't know - and WHY would one want to do so - are all different questions - but let's first decide whether or not B or C can be understood as "Calling someone other than Allah". I find it very difficult to accept that the meaning of the phrase would vary depending on whether this "someone" is dead or alive, or whether we personally know this "someone".

Would appreciate your thoughts on exclusively the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah."

... ... ...

Before you revisit your response, you may wish to know what my understanding is on your comments. Here I am sharing my humble thoughts on some of the points you raised

Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it?

Whether our prayer would help another person - dead or alive is solely and absolutely a discretion of Allah. If someone is helped that is only because Allah wanted to help him - our prayer is never a deciding factor for well being of others - neither dead, nor alive. Still human beings do pray for each other and they are encouraged to pray for each other because prayer for others is an expression of mercy, kindness and fellow-feelings in our heart and Allah loves the ones who are merciful and kind. From this percpective there is little difference between praying for a dead person and praying for a living person.

Furthermore, Qur'an provides specific example where dead people are not beyond the scope of greetings and prayers - see 746.

Why would we greet someone we don't know personally?

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image. Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read. Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

You have brought the comparison of overglorification of Jesus (pbuh) in Christianity. I do not believe Qur'an condemns or discourages praying for a Prophet of wishing blessing upon him - on the contrary Qur'an sets example of such blessing itself (see 1915). What Qur'an condemns is calling prophets/angels as son of Allah and taking prophets/angels as Master from other than Allah. We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Peace,

With all due respect; the passages mean to serve that which has been associated in jurisdiction with God erroneously. That is the real meaning of . It mostly refers to what the false jurisdiction tells them to do, i.e. useless rituals and stuff.

God especially dislikes poor judgment and to what this leads into when someone is void of sound judgment. Then it does not matter how pious they claim themselves to be. It is by the deeds and behavior we shall be judged.

Giving salam to a prophet may be done, but the question is how much of a benefit it would make. The mentioned prophet is done on his test and no person can change their outcome in God's judgment. Nor do these people suffer or grieve and hence have no need of your salam. The concept is redundant. If one knows the meaning of the very word they would know these people are s l m.

Wishing something good for a relative or friend is just a lousy comparison to think it would be shirk because what other than a lovely show of care is that?

But thinking God's jurisdiction orders something which is not true then that is shirk and if it was attributed to the prophet then it is shirk with this prophet. The worst shirk is including when it leads these people to fail in sound judgment due to their delusions of what the prophet or tradition allegedly told them. We have examples of that in traditional Islam where people actually believe in things which are a show of very poor judgment.

But what God judges on is based on behavior and deed. Invented idiocy bring much attention on meaningless rituals and they often become quite dogmatic and get kind of tunnel vision meaning they lose focus on the essence of the faith in pursuit to perform all their prohibitions and rituals flawlessly. And being a good person showing sound judgment is the real point for us.

Be of one with God

Zulf

Thanks to brother Zulf for sharing your thoughts. Much appreciate.

However, I have to say - your response did not seem to address my specific question. I am specifically talking about the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah" as we see in Qur'an (7194, 1066 etc.) Whether or not we can greet dead people or wish blessing on someone we don't know - and WHY would one want to do so - are all different questions - but let's first decide whether or not B or C can be understood as "Calling someone other than Allah". I find it very difficult to accept that the meaning of the phrase would vary depending on whether this "someone" is dead or alive, or whether we personally know this "someone".

Would appreciate your thoughts on exclusively the meaning of the phrase "Calling somone other than Allah."

... ... ...

Before you revisit your response, you may wish to know what my understanding is on your comments. Here I am sharing my humble thoughts on some of the points you raised

Why would we pray for someone dead (as far as this worldly life is concerned) anyway? Is it for us or for them we do it?

Whether our prayer would help another person - dead or alive is solely and absolutely a discretion of Allah. If someone is helped that is only because Allah wanted to help him - our prayer is never a deciding factor for well being of others - neither dead, nor alive. Still human beings do pray for each other and they are encouraged to pray for each other because prayer for others is an expression of mercy, kindness and fellow-feelings in our heart and Allah loves the ones who are merciful and kind. From this percpective there is little difference between praying for a dead person and praying for a living person.

Furthermore, Qur'an provides specific example where dead people are not beyond the scope of greetings and prayers - see 746.

Why would we greet someone we don't know personally?

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image. Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read. Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

You have brought the comparison of overglorification of Jesus (pbuh) in Christianity. I do not believe Qur'an condemns or discourages praying for a Prophet of wishing blessing upon him - on the contrary Qur'an sets example of such blessing itself (see 1915). What Qur'an condemns is calling prophets/angels as son of Allah and taking prophets/angels as Master from other than Allah. We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Peace and thank you for your kind reply br. Arman,

First off, I have to agree that I seem to have missed your point, where you ask about "calling on someone other than Allah". I take this to mean that the people in the mentioned ayats are calling on certain entities for aid, help and assistance. Like e.g. if you'd pray to Saint Augustine (or whatever) to help you get pregnant. Or praying to Ganesha for rain so the crops won't fail. Ok, I just made up these things, but I hope you get what I mean. To me it seems that calling on someone other than Allah mean that you call on some specific entity, which is part of Creation. This is "other than Allah". Also, "call on" would mean to seek help from or similar.

So, I obviously don't see a problem in calling on your neighbor for help, in carrying a piano or doing the taxes, but I guess that's not what we are discussing.

Regarding 746, does it really involve living people communicating with dead people? I don't think so. Seems like a scenario in the afterlife is described.

I believe there is a huge difference between praying for a live and a passed away person. The passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?

I also believe prayers work very well on living people. It's not just wishes of well. Prayers can really have a great effect, as seen in different religions, and even outside religions.

We do not know anyone 100%. Couples live together for 50+ years and yet they do not understand each other. For every human being we know - dead or alive - we hold a mental image and the real person is different from our mental image.

But we are not talking about knowing someone 100%. We don't even know ourselves 100%. I can pray for my cousin whom I perhaps don't meet very often and don't know too well. No problem. At least I know for a fact that my cousin is a living human being.

Do I know my shopkeeper whom I met yesterday better than the Prophets about whom I studying my entire life? Just because for the shopkeeper I have a face and voice and for my Prophet I don't? Not so sure about that.

What do you KNOW about your prophet? Nothing! You just rely on stories about the prophet to be true. We trust our sources of information, but we cannot know how true they are. So, studying about a prophet does not necessarily mean you are acquiring more information (true facts) about that prophet. Studying means you are memorizing the information written in the texts. That's all it means. Did the prophet have the stamina and sexual power of 30 men? That's what the books say. That's what we read when we are studying the prophet. But is it true? How can we tell? We cannot tell for sure! Ok, this was perhaps not the main point, but there are people who believe Jesus created the universe and they are praying to Jesus to heal their mother, because this is what they have read in books.

Regarding the shopkeeper, at least you know he or she is alive. He or she is a real person in front of you. That you know for a fact, and therefor you can pray for that person. The shopkeeper is not a figure from the history books... a figure we construct an image of in our minds as we read descriptions about him. There's a huge difference.

But anyhow, my main point is not so much in regards to what we know about someone, but rather whether or not that person is able to benefit or receive your salam, greeting, prayer. This is the crux.

Let's take the very specific example of you and me - we do not know the face of each other nor voice. I know of you solely through your posts which I read.

And it's quite a reasonable assumption to assume that I'm a real person who is writing these posts, and not a bot or something.

Similalrly I know a Prophet solely through the message he left (in case of Muhammad - which is the Qur'an). If I can greet you, so I should be allowed to greet my Prophet.

I guess I have to agree that the quran does speak of a person, a prophet, who received the quran through inspiration, and there might be some other things told about him in the text, and this would be enough to assume he was a real person. However, I would not believe what e.g. hadith is saying about the prophet.

What I'm turning against is the whole thing of greeting a dead person (not alive in this physical, material dimension). I cannot see the purpose because I believe he is safer and better off now than what I can imagine, and my prayers wouldn't have an effect anyway once someone's life is terminated. The test is over.

Also, why would I greet someone dead? To improve their status? To let them know I support them? To feel good myself despite knowing they won't hear my greeting? What's the reason?

In any case, I have to acknowledge that I may not understand how you see things. Right now, I have only spoken from my current perspective. Perhaps I can learn something from you. But again, right now, I find it utterly pointless to send prayer, salaams, greetings or similar onto people who have passed away.

We need to be very careful in drawing the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable behavior - bringing excess in either direction is problematic

I agree on this fully! May Allah guide us all to better understanding and a clearer vision and better insight. May Allah bless us with purification.

Let me know if I have misunderstood something. Perhaps I can clarify.
Peace and best regards!
Z

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and Peace, all group

Salamun Alaikum.

Quran clearly rules out calling others besides Allah (7194 is an example)... but what does calling someone other than Allah mean?

A. Praying to someone other than Allah;
B. Calling someone to wish peace/blessings for him;
C. Praying to Allah for someone else;
D. ALL of the above.

I believe it is only A. If B is also unacceptable - then our everyday exchange of salam / greetings with each other becomes unacceptable. If C is unacceptable - how come Quran recommend to pray for the parents etc.

If there are contrary opinions, please discuss with logic.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

If (B) occurs in prayer (or what is intended as prayer), then it would fall under the restrictions of (A). There is also a potential issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is not obligatory (such as calling for peace to another)--isn't that just another way of taking partners? It wouldn't matter if it was hopping on one foot during prayer--if a person takes it to be obligatory without authority (and there is no Authority besides the Almighty) then it is shirk.

Is it recommended that we pray for others?

604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people "We are innocent from you and what you serve besides GOD. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in GOD alone." Except for the saying of Abraham to his father "I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from GOD." "Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny."

ALLAH knows best.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum Brother Zulf and Abdul-Hadi.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

I am glad to see my understanding of "calling on someone other than Allah" is now aligned with the understanding of brother Zulf. Given this understanding - verses like 7194, 1066 should not be used to prohibit blessing on Prophets or daroods etc.
Brother Zulf believes - if I am reading his post correctly ? our prayer does help living people but they cannot help dead people. I do not agree to this point. Per my understanding, helping someone ? dead or alive is a sole authority of Allah ? our prayer for others is merely a reflection of our feelings in our heart for others. I love my friend / relative when he is alive, I wish the best for him, so I pray for him - irrespective of any consideration on whether my prayer will actually help him. I may wish my friend best of luck on the result day of a major exam - knowing very well that his results will be a function of his performance in the test and is probably all settled by now - irrespective I wish him luck or not! I still love my friend / relative when he is dead, so I continue to wish the best for him still pray for him, and so I pray for him. I see no problem with this ? and I definitely do not consider this a shirk.

In a nutshell - my prayer and blessings for others is not motivated by a cost-benefit analysis of whether the blessing would help anyone, rather it is an spontaneous expression of what my heart wishes for them. Thus I seem to differ fundamentally from brother Zulf on the purpose of my greetings and blessings for others. Perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this point.

I understand 746 gives a scenario where dead people are greeting and blessing each other ? not one where living people are blessing dead people. But I referred to this verse solely to illustrate the point that dead people are not beyond the scope of greeting and blessings. Let me specifically quote Brother Zulf

The passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?

This is exactly where 746 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.

I agree 100% with Brother Abdul-Hadi that there is definitely an issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is not obligatory (such as calling for peace to another). Although I doubt if that can always amount to ?shirk?, but it definitely is problematic. In this connection I would humbly mention that from my limited understanding of ?Traditional Islam? ? most traditional schools of thought DO NOT propose darood / Shahadat etc. as ?Mandatory? or ?Farz? part of Salaat ritual.

Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Zulf

This is exactly where 746 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.

Yes, this seems to be the current difference in our perspectives and we we believe things work. We differ in whether or not we believe that a passed away persons situation can still change, after passing away. I believe their destiny is sealed. Of course, I may be wrong. I will keep pondering it, and with time, perhaps my understanding shifts. In any case, Allah is in total control.

Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.

This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.

We should worry more about ourselves, to improve and get more purified, and not who is better than whom. Elevating one above another is to lean towards racism and cast system. We are all souls from God. If someone is more pure than another, then that's God's business. We should only mind our own growth, and avoid casting judgement among others.

Peace

huruf

This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.

There are people here who are convinced that Muhammad is not the name of a person that it may be a collective or something of the kind, so what? What does it change. Prophecy is a Mercy for humans from the Allmight Allmerciful? What is wrong with remembering it, with praising God for it? What is wrong with remembering that we are a prophetic community, that is, that we believe that God's mercy is flowing to us that God communicates with us. Is not Muhammad (whether a person or several or simply a condition) the seal of prophets? Suppose it is not a person, but a condition or a ruh that inhabits certain people at certain times, so what is wrong with praising God's mercy, that mercy which relies us to Him.

The seal of prophets encloses all the prophets, all of them, those we know and those we do not know.

Salaam

hafeez_kazi

Peace all

Praying for living and dead are useless even if you pray one million times. Because Allah does what he WILLS.

He guides whom He wills, He increases provisions whom He wills, He accepts repentance of whom He wills, He forgives whom He wills, He punishes whom He wills, He sends mercy on whom He wills, He guides whom He wills to a straight path, He multiplies (His rewards) for whom He wills, He gives wisdom to whom He wills, He creates what He wills, he grants bounty to whom He wills, He purifies whom He wills, He bestows favor on whom He wills, He leaves astray whom He wills, He gives victory to whom He wills, He guides to His Light whom He wills, He causes to hear whom He wills, He gives males /females to whom He wills, He renders whom He wills barren.

........"Then who could prevent Allah at all if He intended for you harm or intended for you benefit? Rather, ever is Allah, with what you do, Acquainted 4811

But never will Allah delay a soul when its time has come. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Al-Munaafiqoon 11)

He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah; He does what He wills." (3 40)

Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills. (22 1

Can anybody change the WILL of Allah by praying to HIM for OTHERS or DEAD?

That is because Allah would not change a favor which He had bestowed upon a people until they change what is within themselves. And indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing. (Al-Anfaal 53)

For each one are successive before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling in it and there is not for them besides Him any patron. (Ar-Ra'd 11)

Pray for yourselves with full faith in Allah and do not pray for those who are dead or others who are living. PRAYING FOR OTHERS IS AS GOOD AS INTERCESSION

INTERCESSION PRAYER, PETITION OR ENTREATY FOR ANOTHER THE ACTION OF SAYING A PRAYER ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER. A PRAYER TO GOD FOR ANOTHER.

When I was a ten year old boy I used to observe some Muslims sending Salat on Prophet after the Friday prayers and that lasted for about three to five minutes. But today the sending of Salat on prophet has become a daily routine after the Fajr prayer lasting about fifteen minutes and on Friday the sending of Salat plus some other nonsense things last about one hour. This has become a part of religion and tantamount to shirk.

And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him 12106

Man_of_Faith

No. Praying for someone is not useless. God does as God wills, that is true, but God does also carry out wills of other upright men and women because God is not a tyrant and we also work in harmony with God if we are with God. We have thus erased our egos and live like one with the spirit.

Praying for someone where God clearly wants something else would however be futile, but you live in a kind of communion condition with God so also as an individual in the community with God pray for someone else is certainly okay. We can do good through direct physical deeds or we can bless people, to various degrees depending on the growth of one's own soul, for God will listen.

Even wish something in ways of events in the world can be granted from God. I was able through the blessing of God to protect my wife from being damaged in car accident some weeks ago since I had prayed for a certain protection for my son while she and my son were gone in Iran and God did not let my wife become hurt and she could even rise up and walk away with almost no blemish despite being thrown up in the air quite high and then down on the car again. Her leg is a bit stiff and aches a little but otherwise just fine. I did not ask for a car accident, but I had prayed for protection for my son.

And; Abraham prayed for a whole offspring coming after him (although God clearly stating that it would not include the evildoers). That is clearly a misconception that prayers are meaningless. And praying good upon someone other than yourself simply shows your reduced ego whereas constantly doing it for yourself seems a bit selfish.

That all we can do is materialistic in nature in this world is just a sign on how much we are obsessed with physical objects. Same goes for that ketaab delusion or salat and many other words that take mostly a physical meaning in almost all contexts.

Please reflect upon why prayers are performed in the narration of Quran by various historical figures and then compare it to your argument. Remember the people sometimes pray for other people.

Be of one with God

Zulf

Indeed, prayer has amazing power even though we don't know the mechanics behind it.
The power of prayer is no less real than stuff we do "in the material world". For example, I can intend to drive to town, buy the new cook book for my relative so that he can have that planned dinner. Easy right? Well, not if God doesn't will. Perhaps I get sick, perhaps my car won't start, perhaps traffic gets jammed, perhaps the book is sold out, perhaps perhaps perhaps. We can't even be sure to carry out simple physical deed in this material world, but that doesn't render the concept of action useless. We have intentions and often we are able to carry out what we intend. Same with prayers. Prayer is not just wishful thinking. It has power if done with heart and emotion.

Cheers

Man_of_Faith

Peace Zulf,

We ought to realize that we are of one with God and therefore we can also will in spirit with God. But also to will things which are bad in judgment while knowing better is like double the punishment. Noah repented for praying for his son and it showed that God got pissed off since he ought to have known better. What we pray for we are responsible for ourselves.

But to pray for certain scenarios; to affect the "time line", in uprightness is nothing wrong. Abraham prophesied with authority for future generations, but it was a prayer from his part, and it included people who were already alive at that time. "Protect me and my sons from serving idols" was in a prayer. Clearly individuals are making intentional prayers for other people in Quran, yet certain people want to prohibit prayers?

Complicated to explain, yet not so incomprehensible. God is way way closer to us than we care to think.

Be of one with God

phanhan

Hello every body.

Why is it when I used to be sunni, I found it impossible to pray or say shahada without mentioning Prophet Muhammad. I just felt too uncomfortable. It was like something was missing.

Is God not sufficient for His servant?... "Say God is sufficient for me." (Quran, 3936,3
"And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!" (Qur'an 3945)
Israfeel, you really need to ponder on the verses above.

Zulf

Complicated to explain, yet not so incomprehensible. God is way way closer to us than we care to think.

Indeed! Very true.

Armanaziz

All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.

We should worry more about ourselves, to improve and get more purified, and not who is better than whom. Elevating one above another is to lean towards racism and cast system. We are all souls from God. If someone is more pure than another, then that's God's business. We should only mind our own growth, and avoid casting judgement among others.

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks for sharing your valuable thoughts on this. Let me share my humble perspective on it.

There is no doubt Qur?an unequivocally maintains that we must not differentiate among the messengers. The exact word used in Qur?an is farraqu (&#1615 of the root fa-ra-qaf. Interestingly the same word has been used in the below verse

4150 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate (ufarriqu) between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between.
(Translation by Sahih International, emphasis added)

Clearly not discriminating between Allah and the Messenger does not mean they are all the same or must be remembered and respected at the same level. It simply means the message of Allah is exactly same as the message of the messenger.

The directive of not differentiating among the messengers have been interpreted differently by different groups. Traditional Islamic thought generally takes a very loose interpretation and maintains that as long as we recognize all Messengers as messengers from Allah ? we are complying with this requirement. They feel it is ok to identify certain messenger as the ?Greatest Messenger? or the Leader of Messengers (Sayyedil Mursalin). On the other hand many Quranist proponents hold a very strict view and hold that even identifying some messenger as ?my messenger? or invoking blessing on one messenger while ignoring others is problematic under this directive.

My personal understanding is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. Although I am convinced proposing qualitative distinction between messengers (i.e. one messenger superior to another) potentially violates this commandment, I cannot deny the below realities

Qur?an has not mentioned the name of All messengers ? So, by mentioning some messengers and not mentioning others Qur?an has already taken a ?selective? approach in terms of Messengers. If we have to accept that this selective approach does not violate the directive of non-differentiation, we have to admit we can be selective while still being non-differentiating.
Messengers appeared in different point in time in history ? so some messengers are more ?recent? than others. Simply recognizing this difference should not constitute ?differentiation?.
Not every messenger?s message reached us equally. Some messages are better preserved than others. Recognizing this allows us to pay more attention to specific messenger while still not differentiating others. Based on to which community one belongs it is extremely likely that one would be greater exposed to certain messenger(s) than others.

Based on these observations my current conclusions are - the directive of non-differentiation require that

We MUST NOT differentiate among the messengers qualitatively by over glorifying one Messenger as ?Son of God? / ?Greatest Messenger? / ?Leader of the Messenger? / ?Messenger of Covenant? etc. to the extent that it means the message of one messenger was superior to that of another messenger.
We MUST recognize that All Messengers preached and practiced the same message ? be slave to God alone ? do good and reject bad.
We must not dishonor / reject messengers of other communities even if their practices seem to be conflicting to our beliefs ? it is well possible they were also Messengers of Allah but their messages have subsequently been distorted.
Where Qur?an gives specific example of actions of any messenger ? unless Qur?an mentions it was a mistake of the messenger ? we must accept such action / behavior as acceptable (even when customs / alleged ahadis may say the opposite). For example, Qur?an confirms that Jesus (pbuh) created shape of birds from clay, Solomon (pbuh) used to erect statues; we must accept these practices as at least acceptable - if not ideal.

But the directive of non-differentiation does not mean that

We cannot be selective in discussing about the messengers.
We cannot be selective in studying the messages of the messenger?s (e.g. one may choose to devote more attention to Qur?an than to Gospel).
We cannot bless or greet selected messengers.

While I recognize that traditional muslims often cross their limit in over glorifying Muhammad (pbuh) to put him qualitatively ?above? other messengers ? at the same time it is my observation that many among the Quranists schools and ?Submitters? tend to blow this directive out of proportion ? and mandate such indifference and non-selective approach in dealing with messengers that is practically impossible and often devoid of common sense.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

hafeez_kazi

Peace all

I repeat that even if you pray one million time you will not get what you want unless ALLAH WILLS.

The proof is the following two verses

They said,(Moses) "Call upon your Lord to make clear to us what it is. Indeed, cows look alike to us. And INDEED we, IF ALLAH WILLS, WILL BE GUIDED." 270

The children of Israel did not ask Moses to pray on their behalf for guidance but what they said is really worth pondering. The children of Allah knew that they WILL NOT BE GUIDED unless ALLAH WILLS .

There is nothing in the universe without the WILL of Allah

No, it is Him you would INVOKE, and HE would REMOVE that for which you INVOKED Him IF HE WILLED, and you would forget what you associate and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying. 6148

Say, "If Allah had willed, I would not have recited it to you, nor would He have made it known to you, for I had remained among you a lifetime before it. Then will you not reason?" (10 16)

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers? (10 99)

And upon Allah is the direction of the way, and among the various paths are those deviating. And if He willed, He could have guided you all. (16 9)

said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in order." (18 69)

Have you not considered your Lord - how He extends the shadow, and if He willed, He could have made it stationary? Then We made the sun for it an indication. (25 45)

And the Day the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will be terrified except whom Allah wills. And all will come to Him humbled. (27 87)

That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth and punish the hypocrites if He wills or accept their repentance. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. (33 24)

And when he reached with him exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." (37 102)

And the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will fall dead except whom Allah wills. Then it will be blown again, and at once they will be standing, looking on. (39 6

Man_of_Faith

But I will not repeat for what I said already is there. And people can judge for themselves.

Be of one with God

Man_of_Faith

May your spirit be whole,

I will bring my own passages from Monotheist Translation which show cases where the actors of the book do active praying for other people. Do these people do wrong then?

2126 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day.? He said ?As for he who is void of wisdom, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!?
Abraham is praying in this passage and asks for God to provide for inhabitants, i.e. he prays for someone other than himself.

Green My suggestion for translation of kafar rather than the misleading disbeliever/rejector delusion. Perhaps may also indicate that someone is deluded.

Abraham and Ishmael continue

2128 ?Our Lord, and let us "submit" to You and from our progeny a nation "submitting" to You, and show us our rites ways, and forgive us; You are the Forgiver, the Merciful.?
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the book decree and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

Yet again other people are included in the prayer (sorry I could not let the misleading words remain in the Monotheist Translation presentation).

Red The translation choice of submit is quite poor, though not the topic of discussion here. Rather be of spirit like you or something similar to this is the best translation I have come up with so far on the words. Please see 2132 for an example of how weird it is with a translation such as "submit", or does no on agree here?

7151 He (Moses) said ?My Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us in Your mercy; and you are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.?

7155 And Moses selected from his people seventy men for Our appointed time; so when the earthquake seized them, he said ?My Lord, if You wished You could have destroyed them before this, and me as well. Will you destroy us for what the foolish among us have done? It is all Your test, You misguide with it whom You please and You guide with it whom You please. You are our Supporter, so forgive us and have mercy on us; You are the Best Forgiver.?
7156 ?And decree for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter; we have been guided towards You.? He said ?My punishment, I afflict with it whom I chose, and My mercy encompasses all things. I will thus decree it for those who are aware and contribute towards purification, and those who believe in Our revelations.?

1088 And Moses said ?Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his commanders adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts; for they will not believe until they see the painful retribution.?

Moses is praying for someone else although for negative things to happen. Yet it is the same matter. It is the will of Moses (although Moses was spiritually with God rather than as individual). The important thing is that it is a prayer, and prayers have been said to be useless, so then Moses are doing something entirely useless here?

1435 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and keep me and my sons away from serving statues.?

1441 ?Our Lord, forgive me and my parents, and the believers on the Day the judgment is called.?

1724 And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say ?My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was young.?

26118 ?So open between me and them a rift, and save me and those who are with me of the believers.?
It is still up to God to grant the wishes, but as you see it is open field to pray for other people although one may be wise in what kind of requests to do.

26169 ?My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.?

407 Those who carry the Throne and all those surrounding it glorify the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they seek forgiveness for those who have believed ?Our Lord, You encompass all things with mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed Your path, and spare them the agony of Hell.?
408 ?Our Lord, and admit them into gardens of delight which You had promised for them and for those who did good of their fathers, their spouses, and their progeny. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
409 ?And save them from the sins. And whoever You save from the sins, on that Day, You have granted him mercy. And such is the great triumph.?

7128 ?My Lord, forgive me, and my parents, and whoever enters my home as a believer, and the believing males, and the believing females; and do not increase the wicked except in destruction.?

What is with all this? Are the people here all sinning while they supposed to be prime examples of good members of God?

Be of one with God

hafeez_kazi

peace

Why you forgot IF ALLAH WILLS

There is nothing in this universe without the WILL of Allah

No, it is Him you would INVOKE, and HE would REMOVE that for which you INVOKED Him IF HE WILLED, and you would forget what you associate said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in order." (18 69)

And when he reached with him exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." (37 102)

Even the reward and the punishment and the acceptance of repentance is also SUBJECT to the WILL OF ALLAH

That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth and punish the hypocrites if He wills or accept their repentance. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. (33 24)

IF ALLAH WILLS then there is EVERYTHING and if ALLAH DOES NOT WILL then there is nothing.

if by your standard prayers are accepted then not a single believer will be in hell, not a single believer will be astray, not a single believer will be poor, not a single believer will be in the hospital, not a single believer will be childless and bla bla because Allah responds to all prayers of each and every believer.

there is no verse in the QURAN which gives me permission to pray for others. If I ask somebody to pray for me then that is equivalent to INTERCESSION.

INTERCESSION Praying, petition or entreaty in favor of another a prayer to God on behalf of another.

if you pray for me will Allah guide me, if you pray for me will Allah forgive me, if you pray for me will Allah accept my repentance, if you pray for me will Allah admit me in the Paradise. if you pray for me will Allah increase my provision. if you pray for me will Allah bestow on me son/daughter. it is only possible when Allah wills and sometimes the prayer and the will of Allah coincides and people understand that their prayer has been answered without reflecting on the WILL of Allah. read all the verses of WILL(yasha) and then come to conclusion.

2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the book decree and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?

reply

Say, "If Allah had willed, I would not have recited it to you, nor would He have made it known to you, for I had remained among you a lifetime before it. Then will you not reason?" (10 16)

1724 And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say ?My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was young.?

reply

He selects/chooses for His mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the possessor of great bounty 374

2126 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day.? He said ?As for he who is void of wisdom, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!?
Abraham is praying in this passage and asks for God to provide for inhabitants, i.e. he prays for someone other than himself

reply

who made for you the earth a bed and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know . (Al-Baqara 22)

Beautified for those who disbelieve is the life of this world, and they ridicule those who believe. But those who fear Allah are above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allah gives provision to whom He wills
without account. (Al-Baqara 212)

7151 He (Moses) said ?My Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us in Your mercy; and you are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.?

reply

And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Aali Imraan 129)

1088 And Moses said ?Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his commanders adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts; for they will not believe until they see the painful retribution.?

reply

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (Al-Maaida 40)

no mankind in the world how much he is righteous cannot change the WILL of ALLAH. You will get whatever you want ONLY IF ALLAH WILLS, and this claim you cannot deny it or defy it.

Allah does not act according to the will of the mankind. You only prove that mankind can change the WILL of Allah and I am very much sure that nobody can prove it.

If Allah has decided something for me then nobody in the world can change the decision of Allah

And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."1145/46/47

BEFORE PRAYING FOR OTHERS JUST CONFIRM WHETHER HE IS RIGHTEOUS OR NOT

Zulf

All prayers MAY BE answered SUBJECT to IF HE WILLS. And there is no such prayer which has the power to change the WILL of Allah.

Of course. Everything is dependent on Allah's will. At the same time, Allah has willed that there are laws running in Creation, e.g. natural laws, or you-reap-what-you-sow (law of justice). The condition that Allah's will determines everything doesn't mean that prayers are void. Like you said. Prayers MAY be answered. Just like intentions MAY result in fruition.

Only angels and the prophets have been given the permission to ask for others and no mankind has been given such permission.

I'm not familiar with this information. Where do we learn this?

Peace and kind regards

Zulf

Sir,

Peace be with you.
Just a few remarks from my side. Probably repeating myself.

Qur?an has not mentioned the name of All messengers ? So, by mentioning some messengers and not mentioning others Qur?an has already taken a ?selective? approach in terms of Messengers. If we have to accept that this selective approach does not violate the directive of non-differentiation, we have to admit we can be selective while still being non-differentiating.

How does red follow from green?
If Allah has chosen a set of messengers as tools to relay a message to us, and thereby being "selective", how can we claim the same right when it comes to that set of messengers? If Allah destroys a village, can we also do that? Nah. Perhaps a drastic parable, but I don't see how we can claim the right of something just because Allah seems to have employed something in the composition of the quran.

If we keep selecting the same all the time, we are in fact differentiating. By investing fondness, time and preference in one, we are differentiating, even if we do not claim one is above another. But in realty, one is indeed above another, in our hearts, as far as our liking and emotions are concerned.

But in any case, only Allah knows our true motives, and we should not judge each other. However, the topic is a bit sensitive in that there are quranic words about this, speaking about not differentiating among messengers. Therefore it must be an important topic. So at least we should be careful and look into ourselves to try to protect again erring. Our minds are very, very powerful tools. Allah knows this naturally, and as a blessing we are getting warnings what to do and not to do. The most dangerous things are not the once done by our hands, but rather those done within the mind. To make it worse, our mind is a real trickster, and we constantly need Allah's protection to be safe against ourselves. In many ways, we are our own worst enemies.

Not every messenger?s message reached us equally. Some messages are better preserved than others. Recognizing this allows us to pay more attention to specific messenger while still not differentiating others. Based on to which community one belongs it is extremely likely that one would be greater exposed to certain messenger(s) than others.

Blue Yes, absolutely. This is how religions paint maps, although many followers of religion won't accept this simple fact.

Red Why does intactsness of message translate to level of attention-paying to a messenger? These are separate things. It should be that we should pay more attention on the more intact messages, not messengers. A messenger is not the message.

Based on these observations my current conclusions are - the directive of non-differentiation require that

We MUST NOT differentiate among the messengers qualitatively by over glorifying one Messenger as ?Son of God? / ?Greatest Messenger? / ?Leader of the Messenger? / ?Messenger of Covenant? etc. to the extent that it means the message of one messenger was superior to that of another messenger.

Funnily I've heard both that Jesus created the universe, and that the universe was created solely for Muhammad. People really take it to extremes.

But the directive of non-differentiation does not mean that

We cannot be selective in discussing about the messengers.
We cannot be selective in studying the messages of the messenger?s (e.g. one may choose to devote more attention to Qur?an than to Gospel).

Agreed. No harm in discussion. We all have different interests.

We cannot bless or greet selected messengers.

Well, people have different opinions about this. This is not a given as far as I'm concerned. It also depends to what extent and magnitude we do it. If we build a life and religion around it, like many people actually do, I think we'd better be careful and mend our ways.

Some people argue that we should not pay too much attention to the messengers, but then there are so many other things we pay attention to. So we can ask why it would be worse to pay attention to a messenger (stories of a messenger that is) or bird species. I think it all boils down to HOW we pay attention and for what PURPOSE (which often is subconscious) and also what image of Allah we have, which is tied to whether we associate something with Allah. At the core of all is probably how we relate to Allah.

Peace bro!