To Those Who Prohibit Reciting Prophet's Name For Shahadat and Duroot.
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Salamun Alaikum Brother Zulf and Abdul-Hadi.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.
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I am glad to see my understanding of "calling on someone other than Allah" is now aligned with the understanding of brother Zulf. Given this understanding - verses like 7194, 1066 should not be used to prohibit blessing on Prophets or daroods etc.
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Brother Zulf believes - if I am reading his post correctly ? our prayer does help living people but they cannot help dead people. I do not agree to this point. Per my understanding, helping someone ? dead or alive is a sole authority of Allah ? our prayer for others is merely a reflection of our feelings in our heart for others. I love my friend / relative when he is alive, I wish the best for him, so I pray for him - irrespective of any consideration on whether my prayer will actually help him. I may wish my friend best of luck on the result day of a major exam - knowing very well that his results will be a function of his performance in the test and is probably all settled by now - irrespective I wish him luck or not! I still love my friend / relative when he is dead, so I continue to wish the best for him still pray for him, and so I pray for him. I see no problem with this ? and I definitely do not consider this a shirk.
In a nutshell - my prayer and blessings for others is not motivated by a cost-benefit analysis of whether the blessing would help anyone, rather it is an spontaneous expression of what my heart wishes for them. Thus I seem to differ fundamentally from brother Zulf on the purpose of my greetings and blessings for others. Perhaps we have to agree to disagree on this point.
- I understand 746 gives a scenario where dead people are greeting and blessing each other ? not one where living people are blessing dead people. But I referred to this verse solely to illustrate the point that dead people are not beyond the scope of greeting and blessings. Let me specifically quote Brother Zulf
The passed away person has already done his or her deeds. The test is over. What effect can my prayers have on my dead grandma?
This is exactly where 746 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.
- I agree 100% with Brother Abdul-Hadi that there is definitely an issue if a person takes it to be obligatory in the Deen to do something that is not obligatory (such as calling for peace to another). Although I doubt if that can always amount to ?shirk?, but it definitely is problematic. In this connection I would humbly mention that from my limited understanding of ?Traditional Islam? ? most traditional schools of thought DO NOT propose darood / Shahadat etc. as ?Mandatory? or ?Farz? part of Salaat ritual.
Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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This is exactly where 746 comes into play. It is not a question of whether the dead person is getting benefit from the blessing or not ? dead people are still within the scope of greeting and blessing ? and respectfully brother ? that?s the point which you seem to be missing.
Yes, this seems to be the current difference in our perspectives and we we believe things work. We differ in whether or not we believe that a passed away persons situation can still change, after passing away. I believe their destiny is sealed. Of course, I may be wrong. I will keep pondering it, and with time, perhaps my understanding shifts. In any case, Allah is in total control.
Happy to discuss further on this issue ? we have still not touched on one important point pertaining to this ? the issue of differentiating among prophets.
This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.We should worry more about ourselves, to improve and get more purified, and not who is better than whom. Elevating one above another is to lean towards racism and cast system. We are all souls from God. If someone is more pure than another, then that's God's business. We should only mind our own growth, and avoid casting judgement among others.
Peace
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This is also an interesting topic. All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.There are people here who are convinced that Muhammad is not the name of a person that it may be a collective or something of the kind, so what? What does it change. Prophecy is a Mercy for humans from the Allmight Allmerciful? What is wrong with remembering it, with praising God for it? What is wrong with remembering that we are a prophetic community, that is, that we believe that God's mercy is flowing to us that God communicates with us. Is not Muhammad (whether a person or several or simply a condition) the seal of prophets? Suppose it is not a person, but a condition or a ruh that inhabits certain people at certain times, so what is wrong with praising God's mercy, that mercy which relies us to Him.
The seal of prophets encloses all the prophets, all of them, those we know and those we do not know.
Salaam
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Peace all
Praying for living and dead are useless even if you pray one million times. Because Allah does what he WILLS.
He guides whom He wills, He increases provisions whom He wills, He accepts repentance of whom He wills, He forgives whom He wills, He punishes whom He wills, He sends mercy on whom He wills, He guides whom He wills to a straight path, He multiplies (His rewards) for whom He wills, He gives wisdom to whom He wills, He creates what He wills, he grants bounty to whom He wills, He purifies whom He wills, He bestows favor on whom He wills, He leaves astray whom He wills, He gives victory to whom He wills, He guides to His Light whom He wills, He causes to hear whom He wills, He gives males /females to whom He wills, He renders whom He wills barren.
........"Then who could prevent Allah at all if He intended for you harm or intended for you benefit? Rather, ever is Allah, with what you do, Acquainted 4811
But never will Allah delay a soul when its time has come. And Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Al-Munaafiqoon 11)
He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah; He does what He wills." (3 40)
Do you not see that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified. And he whom Allah humiliates - for him there is no bestower of honor. Indeed, Allah does what He wills. (22 1
Can anybody change the WILL of Allah by praying to HIM for OTHERS or DEAD?
That is because Allah would not change a favor which He had bestowed upon a people until they change what is within themselves. And indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing. (Al-Anfaal 53)
For each one are successive before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling in it and there is not for them besides Him any patron. (Ar-Ra'd 11)
Pray for yourselves with full faith in Allah and do not pray for those who are dead or others who are living. PRAYING FOR OTHERS IS AS GOOD AS INTERCESSION
INTERCESSION PRAYER, PETITION OR ENTREATY FOR ANOTHER THE ACTION OF SAYING A PRAYER ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER. A PRAYER TO GOD FOR ANOTHER.
When I was a ten year old boy I used to observe some Muslims sending Salat on Prophet after the Friday prayers and that lasted for about three to five minutes. But today the sending of Salat on prophet has become a daily routine after the Fajr prayer lasting about fifteen minutes and on Friday the sending of Salat plus some other nonsense things last about one hour. This has become a part of religion and tantamount to shirk.
And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him 12106
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No. Praying for someone is not useless. God does as God wills, that is true, but God does also carry out wills of other upright men and women because God is not a tyrant and we also work in harmony with God if we are with God. We have thus erased our egos and live like one with the spirit.
Praying for someone where God clearly wants something else would however be futile, but you live in a kind of communion condition with God so also as an individual in the community with God pray for someone else is certainly okay. We can do good through direct physical deeds or we can bless people, to various degrees depending on the growth of one's own soul, for God will listen.
Even wish something in ways of events in the world can be granted from God. I was able through the blessing of God to protect my wife from being damaged in car accident some weeks ago since I had prayed for a certain protection for my son while she and my son were gone in Iran and God did not let my wife become hurt and she could even rise up and walk away with almost no blemish despite being thrown up in the air quite high and then down on the car again. Her leg is a bit stiff and aches a little but otherwise just fine. I did not ask for a car accident, but I had prayed for protection for my son.
And; Abraham prayed for a whole offspring coming after him (although God clearly stating that it would not include the evildoers). That is clearly a misconception that prayers are meaningless. And praying good upon someone other than yourself simply shows your reduced ego whereas constantly doing it for yourself seems a bit selfish.
That all we can do is materialistic in nature in this world is just a sign on how much we are obsessed with physical objects. Same goes for that ketaab delusion or salat and many other words that take mostly a physical meaning in almost all contexts.
Please reflect upon why prayers are performed in the narration of Quran by various historical figures and then compare it to your argument. Remember the people sometimes pray for other people.
Be of one with God
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Indeed, prayer has amazing power even though we don't know the mechanics behind it.
The power of prayer is no less real than stuff we do "in the material world". For example, I can intend to drive to town, buy the new cook book for my relative so that he can have that planned dinner. Easy right? Well, not if God doesn't will. Perhaps I get sick, perhaps my car won't start, perhaps traffic gets jammed, perhaps the book is sold out, perhaps perhaps perhaps. We can't even be sure to carry out simple physical deed in this material world, but that doesn't render the concept of action useless. We have intentions and often we are able to carry out what we intend. Same with prayers. Prayer is not just wishful thinking. It has power if done with heart and emotion.Cheers
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Peace Zulf,
We ought to realize that we are of one with God and therefore we can also will in spirit with God. But also to will things which are bad in judgment while knowing better is like double the punishment. Noah repented for praying for his son and it showed that God got pissed off since he ought to have known better. What we pray for we are responsible for ourselves.
But to pray for certain scenarios; to affect the "time line", in uprightness is nothing wrong. Abraham prophesied with authority for future generations, but it was a prayer from his part, and it included people who were already alive at that time. "Protect me and my sons from serving idols" was in a prayer. Clearly individuals are making intentional prayers for other people in Quran, yet certain people want to prohibit prayers?
Complicated to explain, yet not so incomprehensible. God is way way closer to us than we care to think.
Be of one with God
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Hello every body.
Why is it when I used to be sunni, I found it impossible to pray or say shahada without mentioning Prophet Muhammad. I just felt too uncomfortable. It was like something was missing.
Is God not sufficient for His servant?... "Say God is sufficient for me." (Quran, 3936,3
"And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!" (Qur'an 3945)
Israfeel, you really need to ponder on the verses above. -
All religions differentiate among prophets and messengers. That's partly what makes them sects.
My idea is that it is totally and utterly useless to elevate one prophet/messenger above another. Again, why would we do that? Only Allah has the knowledge to judge among people. Only Allah knows what we truly are. That's why I reject the concept of calling a prophet "my" prophet or "our" prophet. All prophets do Allah's work. The thing to focus on is the message, not the messenger. The only striking difference among prophets is the age and time they lived, but that's not really a difference.We should worry more about ourselves, to improve and get more purified, and not who is better than whom. Elevating one above another is to lean towards racism and cast system. We are all souls from God. If someone is more pure than another, then that's God's business. We should only mind our own growth, and avoid casting judgement among others.
Salamun Alaikum.
Thanks for sharing your valuable thoughts on this. Let me share my humble perspective on it.
There is no doubt Qur?an unequivocally maintains that we must not differentiate among the messengers. The exact word used in Qur?an is farraqu (ُ of the root fa-ra-qaf. Interestingly the same word has been used in the below verse
4150 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate (ufarriqu) between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between.
(Translation by Sahih International, emphasis added)Clearly not discriminating between Allah and the Messenger does not mean they are all the same or must be remembered and respected at the same level. It simply means the message of Allah is exactly same as the message of the messenger.
The directive of not differentiating among the messengers have been interpreted differently by different groups. Traditional Islamic thought generally takes a very loose interpretation and maintains that as long as we recognize all Messengers as messengers from Allah ? we are complying with this requirement. They feel it is ok to identify certain messenger as the ?Greatest Messenger? or the Leader of Messengers (Sayyedil Mursalin). On the other hand many Quranist proponents hold a very strict view and hold that even identifying some messenger as ?my messenger? or invoking blessing on one messenger while ignoring others is problematic under this directive.
My personal understanding is somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. Although I am convinced proposing qualitative distinction between messengers (i.e. one messenger superior to another) potentially violates this commandment, I cannot deny the below realities
- Qur?an has not mentioned the name of All messengers ? So, by mentioning some messengers and not mentioning others Qur?an has already taken a ?selective? approach in terms of Messengers. If we have to accept that this selective approach does not violate the directive of non-differentiation, we have to admit we can be selective while still being non-differentiating.
- Messengers appeared in different point in time in history ? so some messengers are more ?recent? than others. Simply recognizing this difference should not constitute ?differentiation?.
- Not every messenger?s message reached us equally. Some messages are better preserved than others. Recognizing this allows us to pay more attention to specific messenger while still not differentiating others. Based on to which community one belongs it is extremely likely that one would be greater exposed to certain messenger(s) than others.
Based on these observations my current conclusions are - the directive of non-differentiation require that
- We MUST NOT differentiate among the messengers qualitatively by over glorifying one Messenger as ?Son of God? / ?Greatest Messenger? / ?Leader of the Messenger? / ?Messenger of Covenant? etc. to the extent that it means the message of one messenger was superior to that of another messenger.
- We MUST recognize that All Messengers preached and practiced the same message ? be slave to God alone ? do good and reject bad.
- We must not dishonor / reject messengers of other communities even if their practices seem to be conflicting to our beliefs ? it is well possible they were also Messengers of Allah but their messages have subsequently been distorted.
- Where Qur?an gives specific example of actions of any messenger ? unless Qur?an mentions it was a mistake of the messenger ? we must accept such action / behavior as acceptable (even when customs / alleged ahadis may say the opposite). For example, Qur?an confirms that Jesus (pbuh) created shape of birds from clay, Solomon (pbuh) used to erect statues; we must accept these practices as at least acceptable - if not ideal.
But the directive of non-differentiation does not mean that
- We cannot be selective in discussing about the messengers.
- We cannot be selective in studying the messages of the messenger?s (e.g. one may choose to devote more attention to Qur?an than to Gospel).
- We cannot bless or greet selected messengers.
While I recognize that traditional muslims often cross their limit in over glorifying Muhammad (pbuh) to put him qualitatively ?above? other messengers ? at the same time it is my observation that many among the Quranists schools and ?Submitters? tend to blow this directive out of proportion ? and mandate such indifference and non-selective approach in dealing with messengers that is practically impossible and often devoid of common sense.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace all
I repeat that even if you pray one million time you will not get what you want unless ALLAH WILLS.
The proof is the following two verses
They said,(Moses) "Call upon your Lord to make clear to us what it is. Indeed, cows look alike to us. And INDEED we, IF ALLAH WILLS, WILL BE GUIDED." 270
The children of Israel did not ask Moses to pray on their behalf for guidance but what they said is really worth pondering. The children of Allah knew that they WILL NOT BE GUIDED unless ALLAH WILLS .
There is nothing in the universe without the WILL of Allah
No, it is Him you would INVOKE, and HE would REMOVE that for which you INVOKED Him IF HE WILLED, and you would forget what you associate and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying. 6148
Say, "If Allah had willed, I would not have recited it to you, nor would He have made it known to you, for I had remained among you a lifetime before it. Then will you not reason?" (10 16)
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers? (10 99)
And upon Allah is the direction of the way, and among the various paths are those deviating. And if He willed, He could have guided you all. (16 9)
said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in order." (18 69)
Have you not considered your Lord - how He extends the shadow, and if He willed, He could have made it stationary? Then We made the sun for it an indication. (25 45)
And the Day the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will be terrified except whom Allah wills. And all will come to Him humbled. (27 87)
That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth and punish the hypocrites if He wills or accept their repentance. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. (33 24)
And when he reached with him exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." (37 102)
And the Horn will be blown, and whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth will fall dead except whom Allah wills. Then it will be blown again, and at once they will be standing, looking on. (39 6
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But I will not repeat for what I said already is there. And people can judge for themselves.
Be of one with God
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May your spirit be whole,
I will bring my own passages from Monotheist Translation which show cases where the actors of the book do active praying for other people. Do these people do wrong then?
2126 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day.? He said ?As for he who is void of wisdom, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!?
Abraham is praying in this passage and asks for God to provide for inhabitants, i.e. he prays for someone other than himself.Green My suggestion for translation of kafar rather than the misleading disbeliever/rejector delusion. Perhaps may also indicate that someone is deluded.
Abraham and Ishmael continue
2128 ?Our Lord, and let us "submit" to You and from our progeny a nation "submitting" to You, and show us our rites ways, and forgive us; You are the Forgiver, the Merciful.?
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the book decree and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?Yet again other people are included in the prayer (sorry I could not let the misleading words remain in the Monotheist Translation presentation).
Red The translation choice of submit is quite poor, though not the topic of discussion here. Rather be of spirit like you or something similar to this is the best translation I have come up with so far on the words. Please see 2132 for an example of how weird it is with a translation such as "submit", or does no on agree here?
7151 He (Moses) said ?My Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us in Your mercy; and you are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.?
7155 And Moses selected from his people seventy men for Our appointed time; so when the earthquake seized them, he said ?My Lord, if You wished You could have destroyed them before this, and me as well. Will you destroy us for what the foolish among us have done? It is all Your test, You misguide with it whom You please and You guide with it whom You please. You are our Supporter, so forgive us and have mercy on us; You are the Best Forgiver.?
7156 ?And decree for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter; we have been guided towards You.? He said ?My punishment, I afflict with it whom I chose, and My mercy encompasses all things. I will thus decree it for those who are aware and contribute towards purification, and those who believe in Our revelations.?1088 And Moses said ?Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his commanders adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts; for they will not believe until they see the painful retribution.?
Moses is praying for someone else although for negative things to happen. Yet it is the same matter. It is the will of Moses (although Moses was spiritually with God rather than as individual). The important thing is that it is a prayer, and prayers have been said to be useless, so then Moses are doing something entirely useless here?
1435 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and keep me and my sons away from serving statues.?
1441 ?Our Lord, forgive me and my parents, and the believers on the Day the judgment is called.?
1724 And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say ?My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was young.?
26118 ?So open between me and them a rift, and save me and those who are with me of the believers.?
It is still up to God to grant the wishes, but as you see it is open field to pray for other people although one may be wise in what kind of requests to do.26169 ?My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.?
407 Those who carry the Throne and all those surrounding it glorify the praise of their Lord, and believe in Him, and they seek forgiveness for those who have believed ?Our Lord, You encompass all things with mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repented and followed Your path, and spare them the agony of Hell.?
408 ?Our Lord, and admit them into gardens of delight which You had promised for them and for those who did good of their fathers, their spouses, and their progeny. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
409 ?And save them from the sins. And whoever You save from the sins, on that Day, You have granted him mercy. And such is the great triumph.?7128 ?My Lord, forgive me, and my parents, and whoever enters my home as a believer, and the believing males, and the believing females; and do not increase the wicked except in destruction.?
What is with all this? Are the people here all sinning while they supposed to be prime examples of good members of God?
Be of one with God
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peace
Why you forgot IF ALLAH WILLS
There is nothing in this universe without the WILL of Allah
No, it is Him you would INVOKE, and HE would REMOVE that for which you INVOKED Him IF HE WILLED, and you would forget what you associate said, "You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in order." (18 69)
And when he reached with him exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast." (37 102)
Even the reward and the punishment and the acceptance of repentance is also SUBJECT to the WILL OF ALLAH
That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth and punish the hypocrites if He wills or accept their repentance. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. (33 24)
IF ALLAH WILLS then there is EVERYTHING and if ALLAH DOES NOT WILL then there is nothing.
if by your standard prayers are accepted then not a single believer will be in hell, not a single believer will be astray, not a single believer will be poor, not a single believer will be in the hospital, not a single believer will be childless and bla bla because Allah responds to all prayers of each and every believer.
there is no verse in the QURAN which gives me permission to pray for others. If I ask somebody to pray for me then that is equivalent to INTERCESSION.
INTERCESSION Praying, petition or entreaty in favor of another a prayer to God on behalf of another.
if you pray for me will Allah guide me, if you pray for me will Allah forgive me, if you pray for me will Allah accept my repentance, if you pray for me will Allah admit me in the Paradise. if you pray for me will Allah increase my provision. if you pray for me will Allah bestow on me son/daughter. it is only possible when Allah wills and sometimes the prayer and the will of Allah coincides and people understand that their prayer has been answered without reflecting on the WILL of Allah. read all the verses of WILL(yasha) and then come to conclusion.
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your revelations and teach them the book decree and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
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Say, "If Allah had willed, I would not have recited it to you, nor would He have made it known to you, for I had remained among you a lifetime before it. Then will you not reason?" (10 16)
1724 And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say ?My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was young.?
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He selects/chooses for His mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the possessor of great bounty 374
2126 And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day.? He said ?As for he who is void of wisdom, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!?
Abraham is praying in this passage and asks for God to provide for inhabitants, i.e. he prays for someone other than himselfreply
who made for you the earth a bed and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know . (Al-Baqara 22)
Beautified for those who disbelieve is the life of this world, and they ridicule those who believe. But those who fear Allah are above them on the Day of Resurrection. And Allah gives provision to whom He wills
without account. (Al-Baqara 212)7151 He (Moses) said ?My Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us in Your mercy; and you are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.?
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And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Aali Imraan 129)
1088 And Moses said ?Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his commanders adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts; for they will not believe until they see the painful retribution.?
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Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent. (Al-Maaida 40)
no mankind in the world how much he is righteous cannot change the WILL of ALLAH. You will get whatever you want ONLY IF ALLAH WILLS, and this claim you cannot deny it or defy it.
Allah does not act according to the will of the mankind. You only prove that mankind can change the WILL of Allah and I am very much sure that nobody can prove it.
If Allah has decided something for me then nobody in the world can change the decision of Allah
And Noah called to his Lord and said, "My Lord, indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges He said "O Noah! He is not of thy family For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."1145/46/47
BEFORE PRAYING FOR OTHERS JUST CONFIRM WHETHER HE IS RIGHTEOUS OR NOT
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All prayers MAY BE answered SUBJECT to IF HE WILLS. And there is no such prayer which has the power to change the WILL of Allah.
Of course. Everything is dependent on Allah's will. At the same time, Allah has willed that there are laws running in Creation, e.g. natural laws, or you-reap-what-you-sow (law of justice). The condition that Allah's will determines everything doesn't mean that prayers are void. Like you said. Prayers MAY be answered. Just like intentions MAY result in fruition.
Only angels and the prophets have been given the permission to ask for others and no mankind has been given such permission.
I'm not familiar with this information. Where do we learn this?
Peace and kind regards
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Sir,
Peace be with you.
Just a few remarks from my side. Probably repeating myself.- Qur?an has not mentioned the name of All messengers ? So, by mentioning some messengers and not mentioning others Qur?an has already taken a ?selective? approach in terms of Messengers. If we have to accept that this selective approach does not violate the directive of non-differentiation, we have to admit we can be selective while still being non-differentiating.
How does red follow from green?
If Allah has chosen a set of messengers as tools to relay a message to us, and thereby being "selective", how can we claim the same right when it comes to that set of messengers? If Allah destroys a village, can we also do that? Nah. Perhaps a drastic parable, but I don't see how we can claim the right of something just because Allah seems to have employed something in the composition of the quran.If we keep selecting the same all the time, we are in fact differentiating. By investing fondness, time and preference in one, we are differentiating, even if we do not claim one is above another. But in realty, one is indeed above another, in our hearts, as far as our liking and emotions are concerned.
But in any case, only Allah knows our true motives, and we should not judge each other. However, the topic is a bit sensitive in that there are quranic words about this, speaking about not differentiating among messengers. Therefore it must be an important topic. So at least we should be careful and look into ourselves to try to protect again erring. Our minds are very, very powerful tools. Allah knows this naturally, and as a blessing we are getting warnings what to do and not to do. The most dangerous things are not the once done by our hands, but rather those done within the mind. To make it worse, our mind is a real trickster, and we constantly need Allah's protection to be safe against ourselves. In many ways, we are our own worst enemies.
- Not every messenger?s message reached us equally. Some messages are better preserved than others. Recognizing this allows us to pay more attention to specific messenger while still not differentiating others. Based on to which community one belongs it is extremely likely that one would be greater exposed to certain messenger(s) than others.
Blue Yes, absolutely. This is how religions paint maps, although many followers of religion won't accept this simple fact.
Red Why does intactsness of message translate to level of attention-paying to a messenger? These are separate things. It should be that we should pay more attention on the more intact messages, not messengers. A messenger is not the message.
Based on these observations my current conclusions are - the directive of non-differentiation require that
- We MUST NOT differentiate among the messengers qualitatively by over glorifying one Messenger as ?Son of God? / ?Greatest Messenger? / ?Leader of the Messenger? / ?Messenger of Covenant? etc. to the extent that it means the message of one messenger was superior to that of another messenger.
Funnily I've heard both that Jesus created the universe, and that the universe was created solely for Muhammad. People really take it to extremes.
But the directive of non-differentiation does not mean that
- We cannot be selective in discussing about the messengers.
- We cannot be selective in studying the messages of the messenger?s (e.g. one may choose to devote more attention to Qur?an than to Gospel).
Agreed. No harm in discussion. We all have different interests.
- We cannot bless or greet selected messengers.
Well, people have different opinions about this. This is not a given as far as I'm concerned. It also depends to what extent and magnitude we do it. If we build a life and religion around it, like many people actually do, I think we'd better be careful and mend our ways.
Some people argue that we should not pay too much attention to the messengers, but then there are so many other things we pay attention to. So we can ask why it would be worse to pay attention to a messenger (stories of a messenger that is) or bird species. I think it all boils down to HOW we pay attention and for what PURPOSE (which often is subconscious) and also what image of Allah we have, which is tied to whether we associate something with Allah. At the core of all is probably how we relate to Allah.
Peace bro!
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Yes of course. Answered if God wills.
But you give special privilege to prophets but they are ordinary men who got deeper in the regard of spirit with God. I have not heard that prophets are allowed to pray for others but not non-prophet ones? Besides in one of the examples there is not necessarily a prophet speaking.
A prayer for a friend does but show your love for him or her, and with a good standing with God your prayers may as well carry weight and if the other person is deemed worthy. God has the last word.
Saying something can be done shows strong faith, even a mountain could be moved with strong enough faith.
Be of one with God
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Salamun Alaika brother Zulf.
If Allah has chosen a set of messengers as tools to relay a message to us, and thereby being "selective", how can we claim the same right when it comes to that set of messengers? If Allah destroys a village, can we also do that? Nah. Perhaps a drastic parable, but I don't see how we can claim the right of something just because Allah seems to have employed something in the composition of the quran.
A direct result of Qur'an being selective about the messengers is that we too have no choice but to be selective about messenger. When someone talk about Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Salih or Muhammad - we immediately know they are messengers - but when they talk about Buddha or Arjuna - we cannot be 100% sure (at least based on Qur'anic evidence). For a student of Qur'an it is impractical to expect him to pay equal attention / consideration to both named and un-named messengers. That's why it is my current understanding that being selective about messengers based on one's knowledge, familiarity and exposure is allowable from a Quranic standpoint - and does not constitute differentiation.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salamun Alaikum.
Brother Hafeez Kazi is insisting on an interesting proposition ? Our prayers do not change anything UNLESS ALLAH wills so there is no point in praying. I would like to make a few comments on this line.
While I agree with the first part of the argument ?Our prayers do not change anything UNLESS ALLAH wills? ? I do not agree that this leads to the conclusion that ?there is no point in praying?. To come to the conclusion, we need to have the underlying assumption that ?We pray for the sole purpose of making change or doing benefit to others? ? I disagree with this very assumption. Allah wants us to be kind, sympathetic and friendly to each other ? that?s why we should wish good for each other and our prayer is merely a verbal expression of that wish. As long as our prayers are to Allah alone ? there is no harm in wishing and praying for good things ? because if we do not express our wishes to Allah, who else should we turn to?
Interestingly, this is also true for charitable work. Should we help the poor? One may conclude that we should not ? because our help will not help the poor unless Allah wills so. One may even think ? the poor are poor because Allah wanted them to be poor ? who are we to challenge what Allah decided for them and try to change their fate? May be being poor is in their best interest! May be Allah will repay them manifold in afterlife for their suffering in the world. This line of thinking is also valid only if we assume that we are supposed to do charity only for the sake of the poor. No! We need to do charity for the sake of our own selves! Allah wanted us to be kind, cooperative, helping and friendly ? we have to strive to be so with our effort, with our wealth, with our prayer ? then the ultimate result is solely a decision of Allah. Upon Him the believers should rely.
there is no verse in the QURAN which gives me permission to pray for others. If I ask somebody to pray for me then that is equivalent to INTERCESSION.
This is a rather strange observation. How about the below verses?
1723 And your Lord has decreed that you not worship except Him, and to parents, good treatment. Whether one or both of them reach old age with you, say not to them , "uff," and do not repel them but speak to them a noble word.
1724 And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, "My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up small."
(Translation by Sahih International.)
I also do not find the position of brother Hafeez on ?intercession? to be acceptable. What Qur?an says about intercession is that there will be a day when ?intercession? will no longer help anyone. It does not say intercession is bad altogether, or it amounts to shirk.
485 Whoever intercedes a nice intercession will have for him a share of it and whoever intercedes an evil intercession will have for him a piece of it, and upon all things Allah happens to be a Controller.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
How about 1297-98?
(1297) They said "O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins. Indeed, we were wrongdoers."
(129 He said "Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful."
The sons of Jacob asked their father to pray for them.
Salm.