Would like to learn more....
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Peace Seeking,
There are some passages that explains about the topic of being good vs bad. I can give a few
5100 Say ?The bad and the good are not equal, even if the abundance of the bad impresses you.? So be aware of God, O you who possess intelligence, that you may succeed.
We are often susceptible to follow in the path of badness because we "normalize" the behavior like the lemming-alike beings that we are. Being bad can often for a short time be more successful in material wealth, but from a spiritual standpoint it is disastrous but the more you succumb to it then more you "fall to the dark side" like in Star Wars (if you know the motion picture). Much like Anakin you will not perceive how far away from God that you fall. In our daily life the allegory may not be so dramatic, but the similitude can still be used for it. When your bad way of being has blinded you so much that it is "normalized" to you and you cannot see any wrong. Obi-Wan tries to rhetorically convince Anakin of his deeds, but he cannot seem to understand. He is clouded by the Dark Side of the Force (Satan). And just like in the motion picture it eventually leads to utter destruction. You see that those on the Dark Side are depressed, feel bad, but cannot control themselves. Anakin Skywalker thinks he kills Padme Amidala and is terrified, but yet he cannot control that he hurts her and even blames Obi-Wan for it. The same kind of putting the guilt on someone else happens often in our daily lives and we are often doing deeds like adultery where we could not control ourselves because we were out of the protection of God and many other less bad deeds but still under influence of Satan such as constant lying. Then there are those like Emperor Palpatine who are possessed like a demon who are just empty evil shells with no goodness whatsoever, consider Adolf Hitler or Stalin. It is difficult to pity them, but somewhere under that skin is a utterly destroyed possessed "heart".
The other passage that you thought about may be this, but it depends on translation. This is Monotheist Translation
177 If you do good, then it will be good for you, and if you do bad, then so be it. But when the promise of the second time comes, they will make your faces filled with sorrow and they will enter the Temple as they did the first time, and they will strike down all that was raised up.
What is most important is that bad behavior accomplishes nothing at all except a potential temporary gain. In the long run good behavior will be the best course of action. It may feel harder to always "be a Jesus", but it sure is possible to be close to it (I think few can be exactly like him because he had a special connection to God from birth), and I am sure he showed a way like he said himself when he was around. You may be surprised how it will come to be exactly the opposite of how you may feel when you read about Jesus throwing away all his wealth and earthly possession. He does not mean that you should literally do it, but he means to lose your attachment with the things of this world. I have tried to imitate the teachings of Jesus here in my ordinary life and you ought to be surprised how odd response it yields where you think that you will become poor and exposed it turns the other way. I thought of it earlier in my life, but I never dared taking the risk of relying entirely on God for sustenance. It becomes verily that God provides for you and it is not supposed that you should become passive, but leave a bit of the Earthly life behind. Many think it is bad because you live on other people but it was not at all what Jesus wanted to teach. You may be surprised how much time you have to reflect on God and be united and I am offered to work through contacts I have regularly so I survive and live well without taking government aid at all.
And if you give the excess away of your possessions then you help the community, save what you need to survive. If all money-hoarders did the same then everyone could live well, even the poor children in Africa who starve to death. I even slept on a thin mattress on the floor for a period, and not because I could not afford a bed. You ought to be surprised how little discomfort it is after a period of getting used to it. I even took naps on the carpet and Iranian "pillows" (but you have to stretch a bit after it rotfl ).
And becoming educated, people will become in all ages no matter if they think like this because people are thirsty for knowledge. God likes people who know how things work. God has no problem with it.
because he gave us free will, and by intervening he would essentially be taking that free will away from us
If God intervened "too much" in this world then the test would be spoiled and the hypocrites and false people are not worthy of redemption, but the poor suffering people that keep upright despite the hardship will not cease to exist despite their suffering. It is just temporary suffering. If you are without many possessions and have roof over your head and a meal for the day it is enough for you. Coming closer to God you do not do through your possessions anyway.
Surely it is hard to see the suffering children in Africa or the killed children due to adults killing each other in Gaza, Israel, Iraq or Syria or elsewhere. But we can hardly blame The Master for it, can we?
Of course I still want all the awful things happening in the world to stop, but I believe that if I want something to change, I need to actively do something myself to change it rather than just sit comfortably in my own home and expect Him to do it all for me.
Yes. This is true. I send money for the suffering people, but I suppose God will send me down to the chaos sooner or later too. It is just such a big project to stop all the problems down there without taking sides. And many evil influences fuel the terror down there, and it seems few causes are upright causes but it is just about ego-centrism. But just going down there helping the weak is a big thing. I wish that these people could live in peace. The most sorrowful thing is that that God-image we spoke about is what causes the atrocities down there for most part. The Islamism or what they call it. In later years it has become like cancer and these guys have nothing to do with God whatsoever. Hypocrites I say! It just bothers me when they run around with AK-47s yelling "Allahu Akbar" like they do it in the name of God.
(By the way, I want to thank you for replying to all my messages in this post! I know I keep asking lots of questions and I don't know much, but you are always kind and take the time to reply to me. Your kindness and advice makes me want to keep learning!)
Please thank the one who sent me and you. I do this for God. It is a voluntary work where the wage is from God.
Be whole
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I'm very sorry it's taken me so long to reply! I did read your post a while ago, I just didn't get the time to reply. I really need to make more time for replying.
I like the Star Wars analogy. ) I've seen instances of this 'blame everyone but myself' in people I used to know/still know, and honestly, I've been guilty of it myself time to time. ( I guess a simple way of looking at it and defending your position against the behaviour is the phrase 'if they jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?'
I live in Japan, which is a VERY materialistic country (possibly another reason why I've started looking into my own beliefs more lately-I'm tired of the consumerism screamed at me from all angles, especially when I know there is more to our lives than just owning the latest item) so I have lately tried to be a bit more honest with my spending and cut down on unnecessary purchases. I have seen people being interviewed on TV where they spend about 90% of their income on brand items, as well as the every day people who refuse to be seen in cheap clothes, who must be perfectly made up to go shopping for food, who don't consider themselves a 'real girl' because they haven't had a hair cut in a few months, etc...I don't like generalising, but every day on TV (and in every day life) I see 'dumb, but super attractive' men and women being admired as role models, and 'smart, but plain' people are seen as unfortunate. Being dense is actually seen as an attractive feature in women! The sexual objectification of women (and also men) here really saddens me-why are we reducing our fellow human beings to what they wear, rather than their personalities and intelligence??
I admire your ability to sleep on a mattress on the floor! My husband and I used to do that when we first came back to Japan, but I have a very bad back and it only made it worse... (
I like how people on this site seem to be very open to people questioning and learning how things work. The idea of keeping people ignorant and reliant on a select few is not (in my opinion) a good way to do anything, whether it be a religion or a business or just living our lives day to day.
It's sad how people do horrible atrocities in the name of their religion, when their religion does not allow the acts they're performing (not just restricted to Islam.) This reminds me of a short video I saw last night of a man debating at Oxford University (I think) about how the image of Islam as a violent religion is wrong. Some people here might like to see it. )
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjRI2AsF3h0
I hope I am slowly learning more about Islam. I have been reading the Qu'ran and making notes of things I want to clarify later, as well as things I really agree with. I really don't know where my studying will take me (it seems the more I learn, the more confused I get and the less sure I am of myself) but I'm enjoying the journey, and I really appreciate the time that you and everyone has taken to help me!
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Salam FindingRightPathToAllah,
The laws about stoning and apostasy always scared me. The media in my home country Australia loves highlighting these laws and stating that they are Islamic laws (hence Australia 'shouldn't allow Muslims into the country' but all these laws seem to come from ahadith rather than the Qu'ran...I have only read just under half the chapters in the Qu'ran, yet I'm yet to come across any verses sanctioning stoning or killing. It's sad that People are claiming that Islam=Syariah law.
While I am still learning and studying about Islam and the Qu'ran, I am worried about people's reactions if they knew I was learning about Qu'ran only Islam. I've seen some pretty horrible reactions on forums to Qu'ran only Muslims..
I wish you the best in your reading of the Qu'ran! I've been reading it online but I'll follow your advice and read the one on this site.
Thank you again for your kind words and advice!
SeekingSalaam,
I am sorry for not replying earlier. I am bad in replying early. I do not agree with scholars in organized religions or politicians as I find them always using their position to misled others for their power, control, and benefit. I am sure not all scholars/Mullahs are like that as there are always few genuine ones too in any group, but the ones I came across me were not. Therefore, I never trusted them and always thought they were lying about Islam because one of them told me a girl being adulteress should be stoned to death, and many such barbaric rules. However, I saw him sexually harassing a girl and many more. I read similar news about Catholic Priests recently in news as well.
I do not think you will get any negative reactions from tradition/Secterian Muslims because you are not yet Muslim following Qur'an or became former Sunni/Shia etc to Muslim following Qur'an. They are mostly angry at us, the ones who left their organized Islam religion, and now following Qur'an. However, even if you became Muslim by following Qur'an, they will be not that angry as you did not became apostate like for example me as I am apostate according to their men-made organized religion.
I am reading Qur'an from here as that's the best one I can find without Hadith influence.
God says 3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
I can verify it for myself later once I can understand Classic Arabic. I can not really learn classic Arabic directly as they have Hadiths influence in Islamic schools where I live. I can not trust them. So, I am learning Modern Arabic first from an institution, and then I can learn classic Arabic myself as both are close. Modern Standard Arabic does not have Hadith influence in schools.
Thanks and Good luck with your research too. May God guide us all. -
Many people yell kafar at others completely oblivious of what the word means while they are kafar themselves completely void of sound judgment, the so-called 'Islamic State' for example.
Be of one with God
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Salaam FindingRightPath,
Don't worry-as you can see, I'm not too good at replying quickly either!
I don't believe that all of them are like that, but it does seem that religious institutions are more or less based on keeping control over society. Whether that is for better or worse, I'm still not sure...I've read the Qu'ran from this site-I really wish they sold hard copies, I'd like to have a copy in my bag to read whenever I want to. I can read it on my phone, but then my battery runs out really quickly, and it hurts my eyes (stupid blue light...)
I'd love to learn Arabic one day, though I may need to find a teacher (I can't learn a language purely through reading...I have to speak it with someone or I don't remember anything... '( ) But maybe if I do what you're doing by learning modern Arabic first, and then use that to help myself learn Classical Arabic. I wish this site had a Qu'ran with English and Arabic side-by-side. I wish you the best with learning Arabic!
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Salaam Man of Faith,
(Pardon my ignorance, 'kafar' means 'disbeliever' correct?)
I don't see how someone not following the exact same ways as oneself means they are a disbeliever...I see that term thrown around a lot when someone questions or has a different interpretation of their belief, but isn't diversity a good thing sometimes? I mean, there are set rules and beliefs in the Qu'ran, but it also gives a lot of freedom to people so that it's not restricted to just one people in one place and time.I keep praying that one day soon this hatred and fear of Islam, and this division between Muslims, and between Muslims and followers of other religions, soon ends.
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I would say it means someone who is void of sound judgment and hence violate the foundation which God has laid out for man by doing evil things of injustice, meanness, oppression and simply showing bad behavior. That is my definition for kafar, and nothing associated with a word like "disbeliever", i.e. rejection that god, the "skyman", exist.
Be of one with God
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I would say it means someone who is void of sound judgment and hence violate the foundation which God has laid out for man by doing evil things of injustice, meanness, oppression and simply showing bad behavior. That is my definition for kafar, and nothing associated with a word like "disbeliever", i.e. rejection that god, the "skyman", exist.
Be of one with God
It's a shame how humans in general are always so quick to judge each other, whether it's regarding to religious beliefs, clothing, skin colour, everything, really...
I really hope for people to stop being so quick to label and judge each other-it doesn't bring people together, it just pushes them further away. The Qu'ran says to show people the way, but that there's also no compulsion in the religion, so we shouldn't force people into anything. Some people may turn away, some may stay, but it's not up to anyone to force people into it.I remember also reading that we aren't responsible for another's decisions, so if someone doesn't agree with us, it doesn't affect us-we just learn to agree to disagree, and learn to respect each other.
Wow, the longer I'm on this site, the more I realise how naive and optimistic I am...
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Salaam FindingRightPath,
Don't worry-as you can see, I'm not too good at replying quickly either!
I don't believe that all of them are like that, but it does seem that religious institutions are more or less based on keeping control over society. Whether that is for better or worse, I'm still not sure...I've read the Qu'ran from this site-I really wish they sold hard copies, I'd like to have a copy in my bag to read whenever I want to. I can read it on my phone, but then my battery runs out really quickly, and it hurts my eyes (stupid blue light...)
I'd love to learn Arabic one day, though I may need to find a teacher (I can't learn a language purely through reading...I have to speak it with someone or I don't remember anything... '( ) But maybe if I do what you're doing by learning modern Arabic first, and then use that to help myself learn Classical Arabic. I wish this site had a Qu'ran with English and Arabic side-by-side. I wish you the best with learning Arabic!
Salaam,
Have you searched online if you can order the hard copy of this site's Qur'an translation? I ordered it from amazon. I don't like reading Book online as well. I can't study even my school studies online. I have to have the book in front of me lol. I am used to study this way.
I tried to study the classic Arabic from a site I was given, but I couldn't do it. I need a teacher first. I will be most likely be fine after I learn the basics of it, then I can study myself.
Thanks and I wish you the best with learning Arabic as well ) -
Salaam,
Have you searched online if you can order the hard copy of this site's Qur'an translation? I ordered it from amazon. I don't like reading Book online as well. I can't study even my school studies online. I have to have the book in front of me lol. I am used to study this way.
I tried to study the classic Arabic from a site I was given, but I couldn't do it. I need a teacher first. I will be most likely be fine after I learn the basics of it, then I can study myself.
Thanks and I wish you the best with learning Arabic as wellSalaam,
Have you searched online if you can order the hard copy of this site's Qur'an translation? I ordered it from amazon. I don't like reading Book online as well. I can't study even my school studies online. I have to have the book in front of me lol. I am used to study this way.
I tried to study the classic Arabic from a site I was given, but I couldn't do it. I need a teacher first. I will be most likely be fine after I learn the basics of it, then I can study myself.
Thanks and I wish you the best with learning Arabic as wellSalaam,
I found the hard copy on Amazon, but unfortunately it's still only in English. I might still buy it though (I'll have to save up, money is very tight at the moment!) Even though I can't read Arabic, I love just looking at the script, and if it's side by side with the English, hopefully once I begin learning Arabic, I can compare the two languages by just looking at the corresponding surat in English.
You and I are similar in that respect-I much prefer to read physical books, rather than online ones, and I can't effectively learn languages without having a teacher. For me, I find that in order for a new word, phrase, etc to stick in my head, I need to be able to speak it aloud, and have someone respond to it. The downside is that I live in a country where the majority of people are monolingual, so finding an Arabic speaker might be a little difficult outside of a mosque.
Hopefully we'll both be able to learn Arabic one day soon!
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Hello to all,
I apologise for the length of my post. I wish to include my reasons for coming here and posting. Any responses or advice would be most appreciated!
I have been interested in Islam for quite some time, but only recently did I stumble upon this website and the idea of Quranism.
I was raised in a Christian (very relaxed, no church attendance or anything) home, but after being scolded in school R.E classes for asking questions, and being told that I had to accept or go to hell, I stopped believing. I became agnostic for several years, but I've always felt that there was something missing in me.
When I reached university I studied abroad in Indonesia and got to visit a girls' pesantren, I made friends with several students and was surprised at how friendly and happy they were. Unfortunately after 9/11 Australia painted a fairly horrible image of Muslims as oppressed, barbaric people and although I knew this was wasn't true, I didn't know any people of Muslim faith till my trip abroad.
Seeing how, despite religion these girls were just like me, I began to read a bit about Islam and what I read, I found drawn to. However, reading about the ahadith ( I hope I'm using the correct term) and the conflicts between Sunni and Shi'a and other Islamic denominations scared me. For a peaceful religion, there is an awful lot of bloodshed and hatred..
Then the other day (literally the other day!) I came across a blog written by a woman who calls herself a Quran only Muslim. From her entries and her reasoning of why she doesn't accept the Hadith, I began to wonder if Quran only Islam might be what I'm seeking. I find myself agreeing to what I've been reading about it, and I've been thinking constantly about what I've read and how I feel about it.
However, I know practically nothing about Islam and the Qu'ran (I started reading it online) but am very interested in learning more. I still don't know if Islam is what I seek, but I hope that just by searching and learning I will find what it is I'm looking for.
Seeking
Dear respected brother/sister, Salamun Alaikum (Peace be upon you)!
I can understand you, I had the same feelings about Islam (In reality Sunnism) and was scared! 'Ahadith' were written by sectarian people and they tell their followers to follow these books which defame Islam and let it look like a barbaric, inhuman 'way of life', 'system'(Arabic Deen). How can a loving and caring God allow bloodshed? Islam is misunderstood and that is because of some books written by men!
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of God. Indeed, God forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (39.53)
Take care brother! Regards,
Ijaz, A. -
Dear respected brother/sister, Salamun Alaikum (Peace be upon you)!
I can understand you, I had the same feelings about Islam (In reality Sunnism) and was scared! 'Ahadith' were written by sectarian people and they tell their followers to follow these books which defame Islam and let it look like a barbaric, inhuman 'way of life', 'system'(Arabic Deen). How can a loving and caring God allow bloodshed? Islam is misunderstood and that is because of some books written by men!
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves , do not despair of the mercy of God. Indeed, God forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (39.53)
Take care brother! Regards,
Ijaz, A.Salaam Ijaz,
The more I read, the more I realise that the 'aspects' of Islam that people fear so much are mainly, if not all from ahadith, which, like you said, were written by others and include laws and beliefs that not only are cultural/regional laws from that time/area, but also contradict the Qu'ran itself! Once I read the Qu'ran myself, most of my doubts and fears regarding Islam disappeared. My only problems now are clarifying certain aspects for myself, but I definitely don't believe that Islam is what the media says it is!
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May you be spiritually whole,
People forget the essence of the faith which is not a lot of worship rituals and acts to show religious piety but on the behavioral compartment. Honor your Master through behavior and deed and this is worth more than a thousand physical prostrations, because the best prostration is done with the heart and soul.
The scripture called Qur'an in current translations and interpretations is also not to be fully trusted because it does also promote atrocities unless analyzed carefully. On a first hand approach it tells you to kill "disbelievers" unless they observe "salaat", but obviously this stems from grave misconceptions of what both a 'kafar', word used to derive "disbeliever" is and what 'salaat', word used to derive a primitive ritual from, means. Obviously to "observe" salat means to be on the light side; i.e. judge in a way of justice (ketab) and not be void of sound judgment (kafar).
And 434 teaches gender fundamentalism of traditional gender roles and which means women are helpless dolls needed to be provided for while it is the family which is in focus in all these passages, particularly from the fourth chapter of this ancient narration. Even removing the "beating the disobedient wives" part of the passage still screams of negative regard for women. Fortunately for those who would like to study that further it would have a different explanation where the whole passage speaks of something entirely different than traditionally believed.
And the abandon them in bed is a joke where neither the word for bed means bed nor does the word which is also used for emigrate in the entire Qur'an means to abandon something, but the real meaning is the exact opposite, i.e. JOIN. Bed in this regard is referring to something like allegiance. Try to reconsider the feeling when you imagine a bed in front of you, like a foundation or movement.
And people speak of marriage within the first passages from the fourth chapter and many propagate, although often circumstantially, polygamy, just like women are vain property of men, and then many women speak of feminism and equal rights to women which is a hypocrisy. The passage speaks, just as people already know, of helpless people and to TAKE CARE of them, one, two three or four of them, or only one to avoid financial hardship which may occur when you bring in people to feed in your home. But somehow humiliation of the female gender has entered the picture here and given the looks as if the religion accepts polygamy while men are not born with two hearts.
If one has not noticed it; the very first passages of the fourth chapter speaks of taking care of them until they grow until mature age, and it speaks not of taking advantage of them to use as a small harem.
And the fourth chapter which is delusively inferred to be talking about women is talking domestic affairs within families and within the community itself, and not focused on women, although women are indirectly benefiting from the clear decreed commands of family politics. The topic of the whole Qur'an is the equal worth of every single human being and God seldom makes any particular differentiation between male and female often not much more than an additional suffix to words.
Once I read the Qu'ran myself, most of my doubts and fears regarding Islam disappeared.
Yes. The most severe and hateful part of the faith disappears when you keep your focus on Qur'an, although you still have to be wary as you can see in my elaboration above. Probably the same people who compiled the hadith used their ignorance to have an exclusive right to interpret Qur'an as well, which results you have seen in the "slow-to-kill" myths about the meaning of Arabic words. We can reveal that since words in hadith use the same fallacy of interpretation of Arabic words like you see long-lasting until our age meaning the ones who wrote hadith did not know how to interpret Qur'an. We people often use their interpretation to most part on how to read the scripture, even if you reject their associated conjecture, with words derived from Qur'an, which sadly in return means that to some extent you still read hadith when you read Qur'an paradoxically. Even dictionaries to some extent means you read hadith books and their inference to create lexicons. The most common is written at least a 300 years after Qur'an was compiled and on par with all the conjecture of hadith. Mere coincidence? Nah, they rediscovered Qur'an and tried to interpret it and likely more involved what others said about the religious tradition than what the text itself said. As a "convenience" they also let be made a dictionary so that their conjecture would be sealed forever for people who follow conjecture like lemmings. Obviously not all needs to be wrong, but their dictionary definitions absolutely ought not to be taken 100%, and usually with a grain of salt.
But the Qur'an foundation that you see when you open a copy, its Arabic text, omitting the verse numbering and diacritical marks, it is more or less identical to the words that came out of the prophet who prophesied them. I am glad that you see that the recorded book is from God.
My only problems now are clarifying certain aspects for myself, but I definitely don't believe that Islam is what the media says it is!
There is yet much to be done in correctly interpreting the book. I am only on a certain small percentage of completely deciphering it despite taken my whole heart at it a while ago. I had no intention of learning the Arabic language first, but I realized that it was necessary because I was not satisfied with how people interpret words because they do not add up. Fortunately God has left a trail and a hint at the understanding of the scripture and they are in the mysterious initials of the Qur'an. God did ingeniously leave them there to reveal that the symbols/letters have an innate meaning in themselves albeit quite primitive, like a very basic meaning such as 'RA' for 'foundation', just imagine the simplest possible foundation with no other inference like house or system but just 'foundation'.
The letter RA is used in words like RAHMAN, RAHEEM, RABB etc for a reason. It is out from this primitive inference from the letters one has to work to fully comprehend the compounds of letters that form the Arabic language (hint Ponder upon the word ARAB and which letters it is composed of, I give a second hint, the 'ein' in Arab forms a grammatical function in the word which must be taken into consideration, plus also used in front of the words with negative reference, traditionally to "desert Arabs".
If you want an example of why I understood God left a hint take a look at this beginning of a chapter including "initial".
681 N, AND the pen, and what they write.
The red marked text was inserted by me even if missing in the standard issue of 'Monotheist Translation'. However, it exists in the original Arabic composition (ref see Arabic red marker).
'N' as a letter can be considered to symbolize 'one'. This is the reason why it is used in words like MumineeN, ShaitaaN, Qur'aaN, as a grammatical function.
Blue I would not swear by God that this word must necessarily mean 'pen' but can be an erroneous inference just like much else from other friends who compiled hadith and lexions.
Just because; I am going to give another example right here
381 S?, and the Qur?an that contains the remembrance regards.
Saad , as to my current understanding, refers to 'light', just the easiest possible inference of light. It also blends fantastically with the subsequent phrase after the conjunction 'wa' (and) because Qur'aan is an expression of true foundation ( qaf, true foundation is it/one).
The intention by me here was not to teach the innate meaning of all Arabic letters but merely to get your eyes up on how things can really be, and most importantly how great the deception may actually be.
Qur'an, the word itself, is utterly abstract in meaning and should not viewed materialistically, just as every other word in the narration and one must disconnect from the physical reality much like the prophets have taught in the past. The prostration is done abstractly, sujud, which means "roughly" 'being spiritually humble/low', meaning you are the opposite of arrogant. Most words used in Qur'an to speak about things to do and so on are abstract instructions and there is no cubic house in Mecca and Kabaa or Hajj, they are just inferences made by ignorant people and they resemble most of the primitive rituals of Paganism. Ignorant people just brought older practices into their service of Allah, while their image of God is more like BAAL (with/in IS God), making God a distinct material being while Allah means 'is that it is''; more easily explained "What simply exist", no boundaries, no physical properties except being existence itself. Having focal points or trying to fall down on knees in an irrelevant direction to something that cannot be comprehended/fathomed, is vain, because God simply is, simply exists and in any direction; up, down, left, right, in front and behind. Sarcastically; a prostration would need to by a physical exercise to move around to prostrate in all directions able to have prostrated to God fully. I would rather choose to prostrate with my heart because that is more giving and focus on good deeds and behavior by the spirit of God and meditate and reflect upon how to improve myself and read a short prayer perhaps like the one suggested allegedly by Jesus or chapter one of Qur'an. "AMEN AMEN ( ن I say to you, be of one, be of one", could be a viable ending to these wishes to The Master.
But it keeps amazing me how people entirely miss the point in what 'is that it is' in fact wants from humans. God does not really want superficial worshipers but cleansed souls and which are like God in spirit. Being like that is the best kind of glorification one can give to God, i.e. 'be like is that it is', be (some)one, you have many hints of what to do. You are to become assimilated into the kingdom of God and not drift apart distancing yourself. In fact the faith is dead simple; be one with God and of ones full of true light (mosadeqeen); my thread "Nearness and Guidance" spoke of that the first dozen posts, and the rest would not have been required if it was not for so much misguidance out there. Some wise man spoke of separating the soul from the body and this is something of the important things one should do; then one can at least begin to see clearly.
Be of one with God
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Salaam Man of Faith,
Sorry for the late reply again... -[
I have to admit, the kill disbelievers unless they observe the salat part did worry me a little. However, I recall that some of these passages are in the context of self defence, not unprovoked violence, and that there is no compulsion in the religion, so (this may be wrong) I see it as allowing everyone to believe and follow what they will, but if they attack you for your beliefs, you should defend yourself.
I am still thankful that I found this website where I can talk to open-minded people about Islam. Even before I knew there were people who did not follow ahadith, I was still drawn to Islam, but the idea of hijab and praying five times a day kind of scared me. However, probably not for the reasons you think-I would be happy to wear the hijab if it was mandatory, however, I am naturally a very energetic and animated person. If I wore hijab, I'm scared that people may think badly of me, and therefore, think badly of other hijabis. I would spend all the time stressing about my appearance, which kind of defeats the purpose of wearing hijab in the first place. I feel I would find it much easier to be modest and not worry about my appearance without hijab.
With praying five times a day, I'm scared that I would just turn into a robot and go through the motions, but not actually have any emotion or meaning behind them. If I don't mean it, I may as well not do it. However, from reading about salat here and other's interpretations of it, I think that if the prayers are only twice a day, I wouldn't just parrot the actions, I would actually know and understand what I was doing, and that I would actually pray meaningfully.
I thought the same-at first I thought if I just have a translated copy of Qu'ran, then that would be enough. But like you said, interpretations can be misleading (either intentionally or not) so I would like to learn Arabic in order to be able to read the original Qu'ran for myself. It will be sometime in the future hopefully, so in the meantime I'm trying to read a lot of the posts here to learn different interpretations/justifications for certain meanings, as well as reading the Qu'ran myself to see what I think it means. I am scared that I'll get things wrong, but if I keep trying, hopefully God will point me in the right direction. )
Lately in my home country there have been lots of attacks on Muslims/Islam, and lots of fear-mongering by the government and media to incite hatred, which has upset me to no end. The image of Islam has been sullied so badly as a result, and so many people are starting to think that ISIS=true Islam....I hope one day that I will be able to show people that the terrorists they see on TV are not what Islam is, and help people see Islam for what it really is peace.
But it keeps amazing me how people entirely miss the point in what 'is that it is' in fact wants from humans. God does not really want superficial worshipers but cleansed souls and which are like God in spirit. Being like that is the best kind of glorification one can give to God, i.e. 'be like is that it is', be (some)one, you have many hints of what to do. You are to become assimilated into the kingdom of God and not drift apart distancing yourself.
I like this description. Every religion/belief seems to insist on looking a certain way, praying a certain way, etc but sometimes I wonder how much of it is actually human invention? Humans seem by nature to like 'fitting in' and belonging to a group, so I wonder if some of the specific actions/clothing/behaviour of religious groups is to help the followers feel like part of that religion?
While it can have that effect, I feel that some people put the external appearance higher up than the internal beliefs. I agree with you-I don't think God wants people who dress modestly and who pray often, but are very shallow people who are judgemental and who are not kind.I hope that I can continue to learn more and that I will be able to become the person God wants me to be.
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Harmony be with you Seeking,
And here comes another really late reply.
I have to admit, the kill disbelievers unless they observe the salat part did worry me a little. However, I recall that some of these passages are in the context of self defence, not unprovoked violence, and that there is no compulsion in the religion, so (this may be wrong) I see it as allowing everyone to believe and follow what they will, but if they attack you for your beliefs, you should defend yourself.
Believe me, the passages in question do not speak of any killing at all but that is a misinterpretation, a dire one, with severe consequences.
I am still thankful that I found this website where I can talk to open-minded people about Islam. Even before I knew there were people who did not follow ahadith, I was still drawn to Islam, but the idea of hijab and praying five times a day kind of scared me. However, probably not for the reasons you think-I would be happy to wear the hijab if it was mandatory, however, I am naturally a very energetic and animated person. If I wore hijab, I'm scared that people may think badly of me, and therefore, think badly of other hijabis. I would spend all the time stressing about my appearance, which kind of defeats the purpose of wearing hijab in the first place. I feel I would find it much easier to be modest and not worry about my appearance without hijab.
If you ask me, hijab is not a commandment, but if one wants to be modest they deal with it as they seem fit. The dogmatically enforced hijab rule is something from men and not "God". Even in the "Western world" "proper women" wore a headscarf or hat as late as around 50 years ago, so it is not so far away. I could agree that modesty is something that should not be looked down at, but it should never be enforced so harshly that someone receives a punishment by law. I do not look down on women who choose to wear "hijab", heck even my wife wears one and I am not telling her what to wear, although I think it is much of her homeland's customs in that woman and why she does it. No harm in that though. I prefer that she does that rather than wearing a mini-skirt, extreme cleavage and showing her belly and God knows what they do. However, I also think that it would suffice if a woman simply does not try to "scream with her body". Behavior, make-up and body language also belongs to modesty.
With praying five times a day, I'm scared that I would just turn into a robot and go through the motions, but not actually have any emotion or meaning behind them. If I don't mean it, I may as well not do it. However, from reading about salat here and other's interpretations of it, I think that if the prayers are only twice a day, I wouldn't just parrot the actions, I would actually know and understand what I was doing, and that I would actually pray meaningfully.
You can do as you please, but I tell you that there are no mandatory prayers as per "God's" definition in Qur'an. The word used, Salat(eh), does whatsoever not refer to a ritualistic practice. If one chooses to make a schedule of glorification of God throughout the day that stands for them and I do not rebuke them, but that "God" would prescribe regular prayers is a misconception. However, it does not say that people have not prayed, even prophets, for you have examples of praying in Qur'an made by them although they are not monotone and brain-dead repetitions in a stereotypical manner. For your information, the Arabic word for 'prayer' is "du'ah" which traditional sectarians turn into supplication to have an excuse to call the other for prayer. But when you recite whatever prayer, your own composition, chapter one of Qur'an or Jesus suggestion on how to pray, then you perform a "du'ah", i.e. you implore "God" about something, even should you repeat that prayer 50 times per day. Worth noticing though is that God does not hear you better because of your many words.
I am sorry for people, but they adhere to Pagan influences which infiltrate what God is inspiring to the prophets throughout history. If you ask me, the 'decree' is very much simpler than people like to make it. The prophets have tried to convey what one should do and it is about good behavior and deeds, and to remain united about God and the realm including those with God. That is my perception of "amen b'Allah" which people stereotypically translate as "belief in God". However there is no belief in that sense and "iman/amen" has nothing to do with belief. Late research I am conducting is seeming to point at "salaam" as the ironical word for that phenomenon although more like faith/confidence and not "belief". What is belief anyway? It is just thinking or guessing. There is a word for thinking in Arabic and that is not amen nor salam.
To say I believe is like saying "I think". Is that something to base your faith upon?
I thought the same-at first I thought if I just have a translated copy of Qu'ran, then that would be enough. But like you said, interpretations can be misleading (either intentionally or not) so I would like to learn Arabic in order to be able to read the original Qu'ran for myself.
And as long as you will rely on the interpretations of men you may fail and indulge in conjecture which is not part of a revelation from the 'Foundation' (traditionally Lord/Rabb).
It will be sometime in the future hopefully, so in the meantime I'm trying to read a lot of the posts here to learn different interpretations/justifications for certain meanings, as well as reading the Qu'ran myself to see what I think it means. I am scared that I'll get things wrong, but if I keep trying, hopefully God will point me in the right direction.
Do not be too confident what people say, not from the past nor contemporaneously when you try. And just because 100% of all available translations in the world say something it means it is correct. It may be as bad as entirely opposite of what they say, I have discovered.
Lately in my home country there have been lots of attacks on Muslims/Islam, and lots of fear-mongering by the government and media to incite hatred, which has upset me to no end. The image of Islam has been sullied so badly as a result, and so many people are starting to think that ISIS=true Islam....I hope one day that I will be able to show people that the terrorists they see on TV are not what Islam is, and help people see Islam for what it really is peace.
Islam has a poor public image in the 'Western world', yes.
I like this description. Every religion/belief seems to insist on looking a certain way, praying a certain way, etc but sometimes I wonder how much of it is actually human invention?
Everything! Nearly everything anyway. Faith is about moral code and assimilation with "God" in spirit and not some materialistic worship practices. How do you perform a prostration to a non-object entity anyway? The sectarians solved this by making Mecca/Jerusalem into an image (idol) of "God". Hypocrisy. It is against one of the three primary commandments in the scriptures starting from Moses. Prostrating anywhere regardless of a receiver is sadly also against the commandment so it does not matter what you do since you still have a created image of "God" before you. Personally I "prostrate" with the heart since it needs no physical target. Jesus felt the same, he had some elaborate opinions about the phenomenon of treating God as an object (which sadly caused people for thousands of years to treat him as "God" instead in misconception).
And if I did not tell it before, there is a reason why "God" is called Allah in Arabic and Elohim in Hebrew/Aramaic and that is to hint to the perceptive blessed person about the abstract nature of "God". This person does not treat "God" as an existing object but "God" is existence itself and a man is merely an expression of that.
While it can have that effect, I feel that some people put the external appearance higher up than the internal beliefs. I agree with you-I don't think God wants people who dress modestly and who pray often, but are very shallow people who are judgemental and who are not kind.
Verily, the one who wants to display his pride in his religious standard, this person does not belong to the realm of "God". Jesus, said something similar. I am not a copycat, but I share his values. All prophets basically held the same values. The ways and decree has remained the same all along. The faith is about making you so little you more or less no longer exist, humble, minimize your ego. The stiff-necked will not be able to enter the gate because it is designed for the small in ego. Take the allegory of the souls of two men, one man had a huge ego making his physical shape very big while there was a humble man that did not exist except in "God" who was small in stature The humble man could enter the gate while the man with a huge ego could not enter. Very easy allegory, was it not? And that is how it works for real about "God's realm" as well.
Your ego makes it impossible for you to enter the gate when you need it while the one who diminished his ego could. Compare that to the "Middle-Eastern" version about "until a camel can pass through the eye of a needle". The camel is the man with a big ego.
Your ego is something that is the most important parameter to work on, dear sister in faith. The rest will have minimal benefits of taking you in through the gate, such as ritualistic practices.
Unity in "God"
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Dear Man of Faith,
What you write in reply has a lot of wisdom and it makes one understand Islam beyond rituals, get to the core of it. I just have one question to clarify please.
You said
"You can do as you please, but I tell you that there are no mandatory prayers as per "God's" definition in Qur'an."When I read some of the verses in Quran about prayer, I feel those verses are talking about something mandatory. My intention is not to dis respect what you said but to get a better understanding of your statement, because for me praying 5 or 3 times every day in those specified times in 24 hours is NOT AN EASY JOB. If i follow it then I would be changing a lot around my life style.
Verses from QURAN that I need to understand more in view of your statement above
Yes I understood that praying has been part of all messengers and their nations but am talking about
having this assumption of compulsory prayers every day for x times at prescribed time of day....please
clarify the following verses context.I have taken the translation from the quran I downloaded from this website, and I see you are a regular
contributor to this site.2238 Maintain the contact prayers; and the middle contact prayer; and stand for God dutifully
2239 But if you are fearful, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know
4102 And if you are with them and you hold the contact prayer for them, then let a group from among them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them be behind you; and let a group who has not yet made the contact prayer come and make the contact prayer with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.
11114 And hold the contact prayer at two parts of the day, and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember
1778 Hold the contact prayer at the zenith of the sun, until the murkiness of the night; and the Qur?an at dawn - the Qur?an at dawn is witnessed.
629 O you who believe, if the contact prayer is called to at the gathering day, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if only you knew.
6210 Then, once the contact prayer is complete, you shall disperse through the land and seek the provisions of God, and remember God frequently that you may succeed443 O you who believe, do not come near the contact prayer while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless a wayfarer, until you wash. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.
918 Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he upholds the contact prayer, and he contributes towards purification, and is only concerned by God. It is these that will be of the guided ones
971 And the believing males and the believing females, they are allies to one another. They order good and prohibit vice, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification and they obey God and His messenger. God will have mercy on them; God is Noble, Wise.
985 And they were not commanded except to serve God and be loyal
to His system, monotheists, and hold the contact prayer and
contribute towards purification. Such is the valuable system.Moreover, am not going into the mechanics of how to pray like most of the sunni or shi folks do. As you said pray can be a Dua. But then my confusion is why in above verses, God explicitly pointing believers to cease trade and attend the Friday prayer, or asking them during battle to conduct prayer in a certain fashion (as if it is to be done in Jamat as a group and not like making Dua alone, pointing to some sort of ritual way of making a prayer).
Cheers
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Harmony be with you Fusion,
You can read about my full latest work on Salat(eh) in a thread I made called 'Nearness and Guidance'. It is an over a year old thread where I channel the results of my tinkering.
Salat(eh) is mandatory, but it is not a 'Pagan' ritual. The word has sadly been attributed to practices which would never be advocated by "God" since "God" has no need for it since you cannot really charm "God" and it is not a man that you can impress by a primitive ritual. A prostration ritual also forces "God" into an object which is against the thousands of years old "Law of Moses" and the Torateh (instruction) that came to him which tells not to make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it, and it does mean to attribute "God" to an object of any kind, even a virtual one. "God" in Arabic is also called 'Allah' for a similar reason which is that it basically means "Is that it is" (lit THAT Thereby). Everything in the realm of "God" point down to Oneness, oneness in THAT. It is talk about assimilation with "God" rather than treating "God" as very distant from yourself.
I interpret "aqum assalateh" as "mind (one's) behavior" and why you can read about in the thread I gave a link to above. More elaborately you can say it means to mind how you act and appear within the realm of "God". Your actions and all good vs. bad that you do is what will be judged upon once you stand there in "the courtroom of "God"". Even a sneer at somebody else will be counted negatively towards your "score". However, it is the final condition of your soul at the Promised Day which counts so even if you did bad initially even for decades in your life and then repented and reformed later it is your present condition which will count when you are judged, although you may need some time to improve for most people will need to work on their person for quite some time until they can behave and grow spiritually (which is the point with aqum assalateh wa atoo azzakateh).
If one had good parents it may be easier because you were reared to know the best, but it is not required if one sufficiently reflects upon life. Abraham did not really have an exemplary father, but he found a way despite this. The struggle to become as perfect as the Creator, which is the foundation of everything, is a constant process (since you probably cannot unless you totally get rid of your ego). You should not really do this to please a Creator but because this is the kind of person you like to be, if you do it to please an object that you are part of then you completely missed the point. You please the Creator, if you like to use that term, by doing things in its spirit.
Moreover, am not going into the mechanics of how to pray like most of the sunni or shi folks do. As you said pray can be a Dua.
The word Du'a means prayer or rather implore The Foundation (Lord) for something. That you would need to enable a contact with your Foundation (as people think about Salateh) are vain words since you are always in contact with "God" since you have the energy of "God" within you and you shall seeks its spirit. Many of the passages that you posted I have dealt with quite easily while a couple of them remained a tough distortion to break, see 443, 56 and 2458. 4102 was a little tricky, but it came along quite nicely after a while and I feel I have a near 100% interpretation. A problem lies in that whole passages are often misinterpreted causing a whole context to misrepresent the discourse. I have decent translations of 56 and 2458 today and I have them presented in the thread given link to earlier in the post. Even if not perfect they are not enough to defend the stance that there exists a ritualistic prayer a'la Paganism. There simply is no such ritual in the narration. It is created through the delusion of some men without ability to comprehend.
91-912 and the slaughtering of polytheists is one grave misrepresentation where "qatal" does not even stand for fight/kill. And polytheist (mushrik) is a sectarian person who puts their faith in conjecture or another jurisdiction than the spirit of "God" stands for. We ought to help those as advocates for "God". The word does not necessarily mean to associate gods but rather some other foundation and jurisdiction.
But then my confusion is why in above verses, God explicitly pointing believers to cease trade and attend the Friday prayer, or asking them during battle to conduct prayer in a certain fashion (as if it is to be done in Jamat as a group and not like making Dua alone, pointing to some sort of ritual way of making a prayer).
Just check the thread and you may understand.
Be of one in "God"
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Harmony to you,
If you like to keep it simpler you can begin backwards and just read the article about Salateh.
Have faith
