The Qur'an, islam and the Personalized God

Man_of_Faith

Hello,

Among those different paths ? one path is through the guidance of messengers and books (including the book named Qur?an).

I would say the "books" and messengers are an "extra blessing" from the Creator and a help. After leaving men here on Earth it is running apparently independently with little interference from God and people can perform right or wrong and God will not necessarily interfere to put things right, as you have probably observed yourself. We all have respite until the promised day unless God delivers an immediate judgment upon a civilization for which action will be preceded by a warning from messengers first. That does, however, not exclude the case when The Sustainer listens to prayers and words from individuals who have the ability to prophecy and deliver curses, which have something in common that they are in "God's favor". But for two different communities completely mindless of God then God will not interfere and will leave them to their own judgment, good or bad, unless one transgresses too much such as in the previous case mentioned above when God delivers a premature judgment.

The original community from which the narrations of Adam and wife, his sons and Noah and Abraham etc stem; these people had information from The Sustainer, so the information of God has been with people since the break of dawn. Scientists have been able to track human spread across the lands of the Earth, so it is both logically derivable from the scripture called Qur'an and from human's own ability to tinker, i.e. human science. It ought hence to be safe to say that information regarding God has been there from the beginning albeit decaying with time. Abraham even was such a friendly soul that he prayed for other humans both of his own time and future generations as to which covenant with God still remains to this day and for God to send messengers, which God has. In a manner of speaking we can say that Abraham prophesied/prayed for our future because prior to the first messenger we often relied on our own ability to safeguard the cultural inheritance, which you can clearly see that we have failed with tremendously the past thousands of years.

So back to the quoted part; I would not say that this is a different path but one and the same and people may depend on wise words from enlightened men and women, or the words of fools, which the majority does despite God helping to "channel" information to excelling individuals such as Muhammad who are usually wholeheartedly followed by only a minority of people. That a certain bloodline excelled can be said being due to Abraham's prayer which was countered by God who said that it would not include bad persons. So you saw from the lineage of Abraham several prophets but not every offspring from Abraham due to what God replied to Abraham and the prophethood could jump several generations but be resumed upon an individual who retook the light path. Considered how many years ago Abraham lived there a likely a multitude of humans across the globe who are originally from the same family as Abraham and taken that God will keep the promise to Abraham then a prophet may appear anywhere. There are people who interpret the "KHATAM ALNABI" as ending of prophethood with Muhammad, but I am hardly satisfied with the interpretation.

Also nothing prevents a person on Earth who is favored by God, but not from the family of Abraham, to reach the position of prophet or messenger, taken this person chooses to stick to this commitment. The person has to be a person of good character and not easily deluded but walk in the light along the beach with The Lord. God's spirit is in him or her due to this person seeking the 'Nearness and Guidance' of The Sustainer and the realm instead of that of deluded men.

we must live responsibly per the senses of right and wrong gifted to us by our Creator

You underlined this phrase such as it would seem that I do not agree with it?

the best way to understand and appreciate that Creator

If one eschew the falsehood and refuse to fall for human conjecture easily and does good in the "eyes" of God; then the person will be able to be in the light of the Creator.

The very idea that God can select individuals as prophets or messengers to communicate His message to mankind implies a ?personalized? view of God.

Yes and no. You cannot make God into an image of something with human measures of characteristics. God does not communicate in a manner that we humans know it but communicate such as the communication comes from any direction simultaneously "in the ether" or even from within ourselves ("voice" of God echoing inside the head and God can generate thoughts inside our heads easily) and it hence does not come from a fixed object anywhere in the universe but if we would say it does not come from anywhere but yet somewhere at the same time. This is because God has no form or shape but is an abstract entity which is present everywhere in the universe at the same time yet taking no space but sustains all the energy in the universe which the universe is constructed from in different variations.

God is an intelligence which is true and separate in control from our souls, but everything in existence is God, and human souls can be seen as stand-alone "run-times" executed in the same system. And also by "personalized" I did not mean that God has no characteristics, but you cannot compare this "higher intelligence" with anything nor bind it to some kind of mental portrait of something and it is like a multi-core processor using processing power which utilizes all the mass of the universe. God is in control of every little atom/energy fragment in the universe. God is anonymous and hence just "is that it is" and wills by the own attribution to simply be referred to "what simply exist" and many people call God "The Sustainer" (Rabb). God wills that we do not materialize our perception of The Sustainer and that is a lesson which lasted of thousands of years after God told Moses to refer to God as "ELAH". The reason for this attribution is that God's spirit can be in any man on the Earth and hence the persona of God must be highly abstract and flexible for human comprehension. So also God is not a separate entity from the creation but is the creation itself and in control of the different variation of energy in the universe. God is alive in the creation but can also not be destroyed because energy cannot be destroyed but simply transform into different variations of energy. And we wait for a promised day when the singularity which we live in, the universe, will contract and everything (all energy) returns to its original expansion point.

The very idea that there can be a divine book authorized by the Master of the universe assigns a personalized character to the Master.

It is not not hard considered what I wrote above to understand that there can be a "divine scripture" when God can fully or semi-fully take control of our mind that we are able to write down something in the light of God. One cannot see God, but if one sees the expression God makes with the "different variations of energy" then they have seen God. This is why a person can act as a mouth of God because his deliverance of words becomes autonomously controlled by The Sustainer and it is not the person itself that delivers the words. Hence also why Jesus were so full of confidence saying "My words are not my own but of the one who sent me". But like I said before, God is not separate from the existing world but is an integral part of it and cannot be destroyed no matter what you do. God has no fixed person attribute that which you can bind to any concrete object but which person must be attributed to everything in existence. The Arabic language and structure, particularly involving pronouns, is a testament to the way in which God works, in case you had not understood this on your own already. It is used in a manner that not much separation is made between anything in existence and that is not just a coincidence but has its root in how the being of God works. One can simply look at the Arabic word ALLAH to understand it AL - L - AH ( &#1607, i.e. + LAM + . And AMEN B'ALLAH ( &#1607 refers to a person who is like God (in spirit), comprehensibly translated.

And it is self-contradictory to acknowledge Qur?an as a divine book sent to a divinely authorized messenger and to reject the personalized view of God at the same time.

In fact it is not; depending on one's aspect of the concept of "personal God". But God acts as an ether so God can be present a little bit here and there. So perhaps to satisfy your stubbornness we can say that God is "omni-personal". "God" is a "higher intelligence" but whose abilities are reflected in us humans and we are totally dependent on it. On a very primitive level of reasoning God has a personal "I", but it is we who exist in that "I", but yet you ought not to use a "personalized view" of God lest you subconsciously materialize God and turn God into a fixed object which is a trap for humans and has been since the break of dawn. God simply exists, as God has expressed already, and that means it is not really intended for people to put a personal characteristic on God.

The Qur?an in its very opening (fatiha) praises the Master of the Universe (Rabbul Alamin) ? and starts calling this Master with second person singular ? You.

So it may be, but I am not satisfied with the perception of Arabic grammar. Also if someone is referred to as "I" then there must be a "you, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, but just because there may be a "you" does not mean that you are supposed to treat it as an concrete object nor paint in image of it in your mind. And as you see in the narration with Moses, God says that "you cannot see me". If you cannot use "you" for God then there would be nothing in existence. And if you have a communication with our omnipresent God it would be awkward to not be able to refer to God except in third person. It is in a linguistic sense and not any weight to your argument. And like I wrote above that which is God is one huge "singularity" of energy which is an entity yet not a comprehensible object. Because it is an interactive entity it ought to be in a direct conversation with it be called upon as "you" and it is not that complicated to grasp that.

?You are the One we are slave to

No it does not say slave, it says serve.

The moment one decides to call God in second person ? one is in effect assigning a personalized image to the God.

You are making a personalized entity, but not any specifics of what kind of entity which you are interacting with. And it is there which the phenomenon of God is not having any measurable means of comparison. Anyway, that entity is calling everyone to refrain from objectifying it and has for millennia and has made every attempt at proclaiming it is omnipresent. And, beneath all blurred sectarian teachings, prophets have attempted to convey that one is supposed to walk in its spirit, in its light.

Then throughout the Qur?an God has been portrayed as One who is Merciful, Forgiving, Tolerant ? one who can respond to prayer and forgive sins ? one who loves good people and is angry with those repressing/rejecting their faith.

This is an erroneous statement about the infamous word 'kafar' and God is not angry with people who reject faith because God needs to damned confirmation of existence but what God is angry with is deluded people, particularly ones who associate God's spirit in their baseless claims of divine jurisdiction, but also those who merely act out in mindless evil actions. But you are right that God loves good people, good people who take on the same spirit as God.

This is anyway your typical Pagan "personal god" which needs to pleased with sacrifices and meaningless shows of confirmation of existence instead of walking in its spirit like you should with the one that simply exists without needs.

These are all invariably attributes of a personalized God.

May be; but not of an objectified God but of an abstract entity being omnipresent.

If one accepts Qur?an as a divine text ? one by default accepts that it is a valid path to understand God as a personalized God

It does not teach that God has any measurable dynamics, it interacts on an abstract level from everywhere and nowhere at the same time being in all the energy in the world.

God is definitely not a person or entity in the sense we human beings understand a person or entity

See; you cannot even go without testifying to your own fallacy of the argument of the discussion you initiated. God is not a person whatsoever, you cannot use a loophole to give an excuse to the fact God should not be compared with any personal characteristics and hence be treated like a concrete object which exists somewhere externally. God's energy is not in any particular object and hence it cannot be worshiped with a Pagan mindset of a "personal god", heck the energy is even in you of a variation.

but given the limitation of human understanding, conceptualizing God as a personalized God is an acceptable path and the faith in messengers

That is a dangerous path and not what the prophets taught and they taught they ought to walk in its spirit and that it was to be called "ALLAH/ELAH" by the people who had those linguistic roots. God can be interacted with as an entity taking it is the only thing in existence and present in the energy of the universe, but it lacks any features making an object of any kind.

The "personal god" is just excuses from a Pagan mindset to continue the creation of idols as a representation of God. Abraham was heavily against this and then people make a mockery of his words by claiming he said this or that. Kill that idol forever instead and let God's spirit reside in you on ether-level.

This path is not the only path the humans have come up with to seek God.

Nuhu? Well; there was wisdom in the old people of the Asian cultures on certain aspects of "faith" and they got a strong point in crushing the object of God into oblivion, but sadly they have other fallacies instead such as "Buddha" and making statues of Buddha. They managed to see one strong point, but instead fell on another.

There is the path of Budhdhism that does not portray God as a person

This perception is wrong, the Buddhists have their God in Buddha, and they treat Buddha clearly as an idol.

and hence does not believe in messengers and scriptures either

This is also wrong, they have had someone who came to them as they claim themselves, only that this person was an expression of God, so they were right but still wrong. They got lost somewhere.

there is the path of Pantheism which endorses searching for the countenance of God in every object and every entity.

Those who claim this are the ones who are closest to how the entity of God works in reality. But there is also fallacies in what arguments those who say they adhere to "Pantheism" and the error is at creating an -ism called something, making it like a sect.

And not the least there is the path of Agnostic Moralism? which simply says ?we don?t know? when comes the question of nature of God or afterlife, but none-the-less endorses faith in one?s responsibility to lead a sensible and moral life.

You know as much knowledge as you look up on yourself and/or become enlightened about by standing in the light, but at least these people are honest. They probably are "turned off" by the pathetic impression of the sects around the world and the immense falsehood out there and choose to just think there is a God but does not dare to choose some information specifically. These people are okay and will enter the realm of God on the end of days as long as they really stayed in the light which they say they "don't know" about.

2125 And as We assign the house (as) a resort for mankind and (of) security; and take from Abraham?s standpoint a salaat ritual; and We made a covenant with Abraham and Ishmael to cleanse My house for the circumambulators and the (devotedly) secluded ones and those who bow down and prostrate.

2126 And as Abraham said, ?My Master, assign this land as secured and provide its fraternity with the fruits ? who (would) have faith in Allah and the last day among them.? He said, ?And whoever would repress (faith), then I allow him enjoy a little. (But) later, I compel him to the suffering of fire and vile is (such) a destination!?

2127 And as Abraham raised the foundation of the house, along with Ishmael ?Our Master, accept (this) from us. Indeed You are You - the Listener, the Knowledgeable.?

2128 ?Our Master! Also (please) assign (both of) us as submissive to You and from our offspring a community submissive to You and show us our rites , and relent to us ? Indeed You are You - The Relenting, the Kind.?

2129 ?Our Master! Also (please) animate within them a messenger from among them to recite to them Your signs and to teach them the book and the wisdom and to purify them. Indeed You are You ? the Almighty, the Wise.?

2130 And who will opt out of the religion of Abraham except who fools his (own) soul? And certainly We have chosen him in the world and indeed, in the hereafter, he is surely amongst the righteous.

(My personal translation, cross-checking is recommended)

However, the Qur?an does also make a point that throughout course of human history different communities have been guided through different prophets in different paths ? but those who have true faith would understand the divisions between communities regarding the teaching of prophets ?are merely outcome of mutual envy between communities.

I prefer not to look upon such poorly translated passages and particularly associating them with father Abraham.

And it is the conjecture which people dispute about and not normally the real decree that has been commanded by The Sustainer.

Qur?an does not say millat-i-abraham is mandatory for mankind.

It is like the ways of Abraham. It is a suggestion of a path to follow, and in fact the only way to follow, since all that Abraham taught was to be good people walking in the light and not taking gods or attributing God to something. The faith is shown from the very behavior and deeds that we do.

What it says to be mandatory is the resolution (deen) that one sumbits to the Master of the universe by being true to the sense of morality which is essentially a part of his very nature.

I would not choose the word "submit" but rather become assimilated, and become as one in spirit.

Everything in the heaven and earth submits to Allah by complying to its God-gifted nature

The origin of the quote that you pasted is just another show about the word thought to mean "submit", but in fact it is a condition of being in the symbiosis willingly rather than unwillingly while unwillingly is by deluding oneself things such as atheism and complete ignorance of what is God. An analogy is the heart, you cannot deny that it continues to beat and there is nothing you can do to stop it except by termination, and this is the kind of "submission" passages speak of in terms of the usage of the Arabic word derived from root Seen - Laam - Meem. Sort of "(being) spiritual reality/definitive thereof" can be a loosely translated literal interpretation, and I tend to see that when you greet someone with "salaam" you do not say "submit!" to them, but you with 'asalaama aleik' wish them (spiritual) well-being. It speaks of the integrity of your own soul and that it is "of God". And everyone; willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly has to abide by the fact your physical body relies upon what precepts set by God. So you can be ignorant of this and deluded into things in your ignorance. The word "submission" implies that someone does something willingly and is just another attempt to circumvent the truth in a loophole to defend the "personal/pagan god".

The "submission" terminology simply continues to project God as an object of sorts. But all speaking in Qur'an speaks of being assimilated with the spirit of God. Just as there is no belief/disbelief terminology in Qur'an, God implies that people already understand that there is nothing else in existence than God, so obviously the salam in salam refers to in terms of God which is the only way one can have salam. In early translational attempts I used "harmony" as translation, which can be less awkward as well as a choice. "Be in harmony" with or in symbiosis, i.e. do all the things in the light of God.

Its only humans (perhaps also jins) who fancy to deviate from that resolution.

Yes. And more often than not they do it because they live in a delusion, which 'kafar' as an Arabic word refers to. They lack knowledge and let their ignorance affect their judgment. Personal ego has a cause in this and the "peer pressure" phenomenon and group identity thinking and that you have your "teachers" like gods (your source of information). If someone fools you into thinking something is true or you do it yourself, then you are a deluded person.

which involves 1) a conceptualization of God as a personalized God,

Being like as God (amen b'Allah)

faith in messengers and books

No, not faith, but a part of. Part of that side of the whole issue between right vs. wrong, good vs. evil. It is a test of our souls this. The messengers, prophets and angels all know that they live in God and are "We". And the book you have probably taken from ketaab which means 'decree' and not book, so the passage with amen and ketaab means to be like the decree is proclaiming.

endorsement of rituals to worship a personalized God.

No way. This is not something which is to be associated with innocent Abraham. There are no rituals except what good of behavior and deeds that we ever do in our lives here initiated by what we do with our souls. Like I said before to be able to truly "worship" a god then you need an object and in the case of God/Allah then you utterly lack that precondition. God may be an entity of sorts but it lacks an object whatsoever.

Abraham was trying to create a safe-haven ? a ?house? for the wondering mankind where they can take shelter against all the confusion of various theologies and dogmas

If you mean house as in an assembly then yes. But it takes knowing which people speak in ignorance from the ones that speak of what is true and God said "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers". Corrupting what God ever said is part of doing what is wrong.

and have faith that they are worshiping none other than the Master of the universe.

That they serve the entity that 'is that it is', Sustainer of the universe.

Qur?an endorses the path of Abraham, confirms Abraham was among the righteous

Yes, of course, but then the question is raised of what is "the path of Abraham". "Righteous" is the one that walks in the light of God. Anyway I have come to dislike the word "righteous" because it has such erroneous connotations, but "righteous" is the one who is just and possessing a good judgment and has wisdom and does deeds thereof to show it.

and that opting out of this path is outright foolishness.

Yes, of course. Kafars/deluded including idolatrous people tend to indulge in unjust and foolish deeds.

true faith

What is "true faith" is probably in the eye of the beholder, but I tend to disagree that what you have uttered in text form in this post hardly could be considered "true faith". This "true faith" this and "true faith" that is causing animosity and separation around the globe while if everyone erased that idol god from the face of the Earth it would be a more pleasant place.

My "true faith" lies in the behavior and deeds of the individual human.

No matter which path (millat) one follows they cannot repress (ka-fa-ra) their natural God-gifted sense of right and wrong

Here you are 'out bicycling' (Swedish saying); a deluded person (kafar) CAN repress "their natural God-gifted sense of right and wrong", even while they ought to know what is right or wrong.

A path that leads to deviation from such resolution will never be acceptable

I.e. a person who does morally wrong and simply is deluded from a good way.

are merely outcome of mutual envy between communities.

Well. Many people struggle hard to compete with others about their piety and arrogance causes them to show this clearly to others and consider them inferior. And like I wrote earlier most of what people argue about is the conjecture.

When it comes to conceptualization of the unobservable realm (al-ghaib), "I am right, you are wrong" attitude is not going to take us anywhere. Imagine four charaters. A musalli who is reciting the verses of holy book in solemn devotion to Allah to be guided aright; a yogi who is devotedly contemplating on holy name of Brahman ? with hope of seeing Brahman in everything so that he can attain the highest moral virtues; a monk practicing sacrifice of all worldly desire seeking nirvana ? the oneness with the "non-personalized" spirit of the universe AND a scientists who is wondering over big-bang and quark and relativity, and human evolution and marveling at the vastness and mystery of the universe to draw inspiration to lead a responsible life ? in essence all four of them are seeking the face of the same One God. The sooner mankind collectively realizes this the sooner we can hope for a harmonized world of peace and prosperity.

Right or wrong; well there is obviously just one fact which is right, but the more conjecture you add into the picture the less foundation you have. The decree and what God has ordered is so simple there is not anything to dispute over. If people stopped worshiping that idol god which they call something in many different languages and took up on the 'which simply is' and what it teaches instead of a lot of conjecture, then the world would be a more peaceful place.

You somewhat contradicted this mutual understanding with your fixation with Qur'an and the "personalized concept". With an object god you will never have world peace because none will take onto its abstract spirit but simply argue about their god and what their prophets allegedly said according to the interpretation of people. Just the same as the prophet received Qur'an through the spirit inside.

In essence any path that puts faith in the Creator (in whatever name or no name at all), and acknowledges our inviolable responsibility to lead a responsible life based on the sense of right and wrong the Creator has gifted us ? is indeed a path towards the same destiny. Understanding and seeking God as a personalized God ? is just one of such paths, and essentially the Quranic path.

Be of one with God

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

Thanks MoF, for sharing your views. I would expect a few other responses in the line ? ?No you are wrong ? My idea of God is the only correct idea? ? form Christians / Buddists / Brahmins / Shia / Sunni / Atheists in the forum.

So anyone else to follow the lead of MoF?

There are hundreds of paths up the mountain,
All leading in the same direction,
So it doesn?t matter which path you take.
The only one wasting time is the one
Who runs around and around the mountain,
Telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.

Hindu proverb

(Source http//quranalyzeit.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/united-sects-of-islam-a-different-perspective-on-unity-and-sectarianism/)

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Mikebloke

Salam brothers,

Forgive my upcoming response, I have tried reading your blocks of text and tried to understand them, but I'm a simple creature and like to keep life as such. In light of this rather than attempting to reply to either of your comments, which are both very interesting I'll try and lay out how I feel on the subject.

I agree with Man of Faith in the degree that God is an abstract entity, I don't believe in God as a personal image, a set physical constrained figure defined by any known or unknown law of physics. I do however believe that God is capable of understanding, relaying and potentially conversing with others even if this is through intermediaries (Angels) which I believe is a common theme, though sometimes unmentioned when it comes to the relationship between God and named prophets.

Relationships between God and named prophets however I do believe are examples of evidence of a Personalised God to some degree. Especially when reading biblical text on the relationships, God is unnecessarily harsh it appears at times when testing the faith of his prophets, even to the point of making 'gambles' with the devil over whether one can distract humans from their worship.

The story of Abraham and being asked to sacrifice a son is of particular interest to me mostly because of lack of context on to why he would be asked such a thing in the first place. In most other cases tests are a reaction of past deeds or mistakes, but in the case of Abraham there is virtually no information prior to the command, and if we take certain sources, such as Islamic ones, the son was quite willing to go ahead with it and asking his father to carry out God's command! So what made God ask Abraham of this test of faith? A test is pointless unless there is something to judge upon, and for Abraham to be judged in such a way must suggest quite a serious belief that Abraham did something he shouldn't, yet we are spared the details of such.

This leads me to believe there is a purpose to some degree of "ritualism", but purely for, or primarily for God's sake. I honestly can't tell whether God listens to me when I pray, whether he reacts or whether he talks back, perhaps my ears are closed, I just do what I can and leave the rest to him, one way or another. That is probably evidence of me personalising him as well, to which I don't think I can necessarily avoid it.

Armanaziz

Salam brother MikeBloke.

Your comments are very much welcome.

Sharing with you my humble thoughts on the story of Abraham and his son. I believe the entire episode was a test for Abraham to see if he puts his dream above his faith that "we have inviolable responsibility to uphold our God-gifted conscience and intellect" - and he passed the test by not slaughtering his son. Putting his son on his forehead signifies his refraining from the act of slaughter at the last moment (note a proper slaughter must be executed from the front side). Allah ransomed his son with a greater sacrifice - a sacrifice of the "excessive passion" (for becoming the most devoted servet of Allah) which sometime dilutes our common senses. And this test was passed on to his successors. Peace upon Abraham. (Reference, Al-Quran 37102-109)

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Man_of_Faith

Spiritual harmony be upon you MikeBloke,

I do however believe that God is capable of understanding, relaying and potentially conversing with others even if this is through intermediaries (Angels) which I believe is a common theme, though sometimes unmentioned when it comes to the relationship between God and named prophets.

Well. Definitely God does this according to what I think despite not having any "personal image" as you put it, but God also not communicate in the same manner as a man would but it more streams into your mind and can be perceived as a "voice in your head".

Relationships between God and named prophets however I do believe are examples of evidence of a Personalised God to some degree.

God has a kind of "character", but it is marked by perfection and one must treat it as such. One always has to mind that God has no needs or any ego that needs to be satisfied, even if one can "walk along the beach with The Lord" and make God pleased in such manner. Yet if God speaks the voice could come from any direction of the world or even the wall spoke. God is alive in all matter, perceptibly dead or alive. God would not even require words for communication yet a person would understand. Knowledge could simply just be there suddenly should God will. God uses the creation at will and can control each energy/atom like a finger, given being present in everything. Personally I think God is an integral part of the universe rather than separate; energy cannot be destroyed just be different form and same is true for the universe, and it can mysteriously either expand or contract. Yet I perceive the world like a singularity, taking virtually no space yet containing immense mass, and the singularity itself is God literally and we are tiny little souls who control "an extension of God's finger" more or less.

Simultaneously this perception helps at keeping one away from turning God into that monster idol who just keeps yelling for people to obey from right to left which I find is a wrong one. I find that the correct method is assimilation and living in the same spirit as what is God and separate one's mind from the body and use the ability which God blessed humanity with to reason and reflect rather than giving in to the fleshy nature of what illusion you can see, which after contracting could take any other shape. Just reflect upon the world with a lot of dinosaurs instead and then see another episode after another cycle. The energy which the world is made of can take different forms after been "recycled". Even what was your body may thousands of later be part of another human's body or a snake or whatever... or a tree rotfl Carbon-based life FTW (for the win). But your soul is separate from your body that belongs to the recyclable energy and you should treat it well and it is not destroyed that easily yet susceptible of being an anomaly towards what is God and the universe and can potentially be expelled/quarantined by God. And it seems we only get one chance.

One way of being realized that God can be referred to as actually being the universe itself is; if you were able to use your mind and then a finger of another human on the other side of the planet moved, would you not consider that it was you? This way one can argue that God is not separate from the creation yet superior and in ultimate control since it can operate the body, i.e. the entire universe, at will, yet the energy in all cannot be destroyed, so God cannot be destroyed either, just change into different forms. I find God curiously advanced and this more believable than the fallible idol god which screams for attention and to please its ego through confirmation that it exists through an invented belief system with primitive rituals which must be executed accurately and timely or the sequence is not accepted such as in an adventure game with riddles. I find this is actually mockery of what is God.

I know this is philosophies on highest and deepest level, but it is always nice to discuss something like this.

Especially when reading biblical text on the relationships, God is unnecessarily harsh it appears at times when testing the faith of his prophets, even to the point of making 'gambles' with the devil over whether one can distract humans from their worship.

I think the majority of narrations are false in the Bible or inaccurately interpreted from the original scripting language, just as is the case with Qur'an in many cases. People twisted the words with their tongues is a descriptive saying.

But if one has not observed it, it is not disbelief which caused people to be harshly spoken to, but it is other gods (diverted jurisdiction) or idols and strange practices which caused God's wrath, as well as immorality.

This leads me to believe there is a purpose to some degree of "ritualism", but purely for, or primarily for God's sake.

I think this is a matter of perspective. In ways one can call anything ritual, like charity or helping a woman across the street, but one can always deem what kind of practice is the most meaningful.

I honestly can't tell whether God listens to me when I pray, whether he reacts or whether he talks back, perhaps my ears are closed, I just do what I can and leave the rest to him, one way or another.

I find that the words one utters is more useful to oneself than the one who perceptibly listens to them, i.e. God. God even hears your wishes even when you have not uttered them verbally and knows your needs. This test is about your will to change your soul and you are not to expect a free-ride from God, so utter the words, say amen, and then go out and uphold what you just said that you would do, i.e. walk in the light, do right, or whatever you said in the prayer. Obviously from your show of will then God will lend a subtle helping hand, passively, using the energy charges of the universe which God controls with precision. If you suddenly had maximum faith without giving expression of your nature and God showed too profoundly signs for you, then it would obviously not be a test. And seeing God's clear signs would not be a guarantee that you qualify for Heaven either, but seeing signs of God could be detrimental to your path since you may think you are upright while you still have lots to work on. And most of us have to work our whole lives to improve ourselves.

That is probably evidence of me personalising him as well, to which I don't think I can necessarily avoid it.

You can minimize it which I find it most healthy lest you may do rituals that are just meaningless instead of focusing on the most important aspects such as behavior and deeds. The more one indulges in rituals the more preoccupied the mind becomes. God knows and hears without formal stances or whatever. God is even with you in spirit when you tinker and study when you have gained God's favor and light.

I occasionally implore The Sustainer as well on my knees since I feel I can have a more focused mono/dialog with God even if God would hear me regardless. But I stopped reading many words as if God heard me for my many words. If I pray for improvement, then I work on realizing the prayer myself and do not wait to change without my own work and struggle to mend my ways. How many people do not repeat Al-fatiha 5 times per day but do not change a bit? Because they think that simply parroting the passages will make God give them a free-ride to improvement.

Be of one with God

Zulf

I honestly can't tell whether God listens to me when I pray, whether he reacts or whether he talks back, perhaps my ears are closed, I just do what I can and leave the rest to him, one way or another.

I find it helpful to try to think in new ways especially when it come to the words we use. I think words influence our thinking a lot.
For example, I would avoid thinking in terms of God listening, or not listening, to our prayers. The reason is that the word 'listen' implies a message/word being sent from a sender to a receiver over a distance. This makes God seem like a separate entity, an objectified God, which is distanced from us in some way. I prefer to think of it all more like there is no separation at all between us and God. There is no need to ask or talk, for God to "pick it up"... instead it is just a tool for us to express something with awareness. After all, God knows what is in our minds, hearts, DNA. The point is our expression, i.e. us expressing us... and the reception by God is never the issue. Further, if we think that "God doesn't listen to us" when we feel we don't get what we want, then it not an issue of communication between us and God... because there is no such thing as communication. Communication requires reparation. God is infinitely close to us. What happens to us may have so many different reasons. God knows what we don't know, and things are never so simple that we can judge a situation easily. Things happen for many different reasons at the same time. The important thing is instead our focus, intention and direction.

Regarding God reacting... it is much the same case as with listening. Reacting means something reacts to something else. I personally prefer to think of it as a natural law of cause and effect. This mechanics of this law is not easily understood, and I guess we mostly misunderstand what's going on. We think things are fair or unfair based on our own extremely limited vision of things. Cause and effect goes deep, and far... and it perhaps expresses in our material world, but works purposely on a "soul level".

One thing for sure is that we indeed and deaf and blind. This is something we all have to work on. By purifying ourselves we gain more vision/hearing. But there are many types of blindness within us. It's not necessarily a simple matter.

Peace

Optimal_Unity

Greetings to all,

A very complex topic and equally complex discussion to follow, may I share my thoughts...

We know that the many prophets must have been God inspired what we don't know is how that started as I am sure they like you were born of equal value as all of God's children, how did they get to be inspired and what did that mean, surely we need to look to the many prophets and their teaching to find out, in this case surely Jesus had the closes description of the experience.

I don't know how Islam views the trinity?

Surely this must be the experience the prophets have been through.

I know some Christians say Jesus was God we can ignore this as an absolute but there is such a thing as the holy spirit for example we also know there is power in the Universe and energy that touches some people and they are inspired with magnificent intellect and knowledge and are rewarded in this life, but being touched at the extreme end could you not actually feel one with God, it does not mean you are God just that you are as close as you can get to God in this reality. This is what I believe Jesus experienced and also the instruction in his word in the Gospels on how to achieve this state of conciousness.

Would love to hear your observation of my comment?

good_logic

Peace Brothers and sisters.

( He, Him.. I use.do not refer to gender!)
GOD tells us who HE is, what HE does, and what He expect from us?

We need to ponders His words? For example we cannot see Him but HE sees us, we only have a little knowledge but HE is the all knowledgeable...etc And get closer and closer to HIM to get to know HIM better? Through His scriptures!

Qoran 2760] Who is the One who created the heavens and the earth? Who is the One who sends down to you from the sky water, whereby we produce gardens full of beauty - you could not possibly manufacture its trees? Is it another god with God? Indeed, they are people who have deviated.

Who is the One who made the earth habitable, caused rivers to run through it, placed on it mountains, and created a barrier between the two waters? Is it another god with God? Indeed, most of them do not know.

Who is the One who rescues those who become desperate and call upon Him, relieves adversity, and makes you inheritors of the earth? Is it another god with God? Rarely do you take heed.

Who is the One who initiates the creation, then repeats it? Who is the One who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Is it another god with God? Say, "Show me your proof, if you are truthful."

Say, "Who provides for you from the heaven and the earth? Who controls all the hearing and the eyesight? Who produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living? Who is in control of all things?" They would say, "God." Say, "Why then do you not observe the commandments?"

Say, "Who is the Lord of the seven universes; the Lord of the great dominion?"
They will say, "God." Say, "Why then do you not turn righteous?"
Say, "In whose hand is all sovereignty over all things, and He is the only one who can provide help, but needs no help, if you know?"
They will say, "God." Say, "Where did you go wrong?"

Say, "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say, "God." Say, "Why then do you set up besides Him masters who do not possess any power to benefit or harm even themselves?".....

Who is there to provide for you, if He withholds His provisions? Indeed, they have plunged deep into transgression and aversion.

Say, "He is the One who initiated you, and granted you the hearing, the eyes, and the brains. Rarely are you appreciative."
Say, "He is the One who placed you on earth, and before Him you will be summoned.

Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent.
The One who created death and life for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving
God is the One who created you. He is the One who provides for you. He is the One who puts you to death. He is the One who resurrects you. Can any of your idols do any of these things? Be He glorified. He is much too exalted to have any partners.

God is the One who sent down the scripture, to deliver the truth and the law. For all that you know, the Hour (Day of Judgment) may be very close.

Ponder His words, get to know Him better, Follow His instructions, get closer and closer to Him.

He will become very near when you call Him , nearer to you than your jugular veins.

When you start to feel "God" near you, stay loyal to Him Alone,stay closer to Him. It will be difficult except for the "Reverent".

GOD bless you all.
Peace.

hawk99

Peace,

Why not read Quran to find out who God is. brickwall

God bless

peace

Optimal_Unity

Peace,

Why not read Quran to find out who God is. brickwall

God bless

peace

Maybe because God is in all of creation, meaning all of the holy books, reading only one limits how deeply you know him.

Optimal_Unity