Greetings Infidels
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I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are supernaturalists. The majority of humans have beliefs which lack evidence, this is not just restricted to religion, ie some people uninfected with the god belief believe that George Bush knocked down the Twin Towers.
If we were to discover concious life in the universe and be able communicate with them in something like a language I'd want to know if they like most people on Earth believe objective claims about reality which have zero evidence.
If anyone can give convincing reasons to me I'd like to think I can change my mind on anything if provided with good arguments. If something is true and can directly effect me I wanna know about it. I want to know how things happen, how they came about. Is the universe infinite or did it have a beginning? What's the origin of life? how did biological conciousness first arise from chemical molecules? etc. Religions have treaded on the feet of Science by making claims in these fields.
@goodlogic
You are confused about why you are here in this life and have no idea who you are? That is my understanding according to your latest post.
If there was a reason completely out of my control that I'm here in this life then I'd be a suppressed individual living in a autocratic dictatorship. It's rather supercilious to assume we have a purpose. You already have the presupposition that there has to be a purpose to life then working from there. We humans aren't special and it's highly unlikely we are eternally immortal as our "selfs". We are just 1.5% smarter than chimps. If there is a species in the universe 1.5% smarter than us, they would look at us humans & think "look at these dumb animals".
There is very probably no ultimate purpose to life and one should realise that no matter how much it hurts our frail egos. One we all accept the mediocrity we are in then we can work on improving the only life we know we'll have.
Your own purpose in life is something you choose for yourself. If it's something you accept is chosen for you, you are accepting you're are a slave who has been designated his/her purpose by his slavemaster. For some their purpose if feminism, veganism yoga etc. The beauty of being a freethinker is that is you get to choose yourself .
Most people are convinced that reason and science prove the in-existence of God rather than His existence
I've not heard any Scientist say this, this is a rather absurd misrepresentation. You can't disprove a negative, that's one of the fundamental basics of critical thinking ie nobody can disprove they are a murderer, nobody can disprove the existence of dragons. What Science can do is show how supernatural explanations are unnecessary.
A lot of the time I hear and see sweeping generalisations and misrepresentations of people who aren't supernaturalists. By many it's assumed they all hold one position on politics, science, philosophy etc. Me not being convinced about the existence of supernatural deities is just an answer of no to that question. It doesn't say anything about my views on anything else. I've never stated for example that the universe came about accidentally. There are speculative possibilities in theoretical Physicists in regards to the origins of the Universe however I don't know how the universe came about or even it was created, and nor does anyone else yet. For me saying "I don't know" is the most sincere and virtuous answer to that question. No amount of armchair philosophy can change that.
sophistication, precision, consistency, coordination and harmony?"
Really? Nature is trying to kill us in so many ways. Aids, wildfires, typhoons, cancer, volcanoes, tornadoes, avalanches, tsunamis, droughts, cyclones, tuberclosis, floods, heatwaves, cholera, polio, ebola, sars, mengingities, malaria etc. I fail to see how this is intelligent work.
@Man of Faith
Wow you really just came out with god of the gaps arguments?
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Peace JiburIshman.
Thanks for your comments.
Many of us at some point or another in our lives start to question where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens to us after we die? Is death the grim end, or is it but a gate that leads into a different kind of existence? We often wonder how did it all come to be? Is there some kind of power responsible for the creation of the vast universe and all that's in it, or did everything around us just happen to be?
Is there a God? But obviously you do not!!!
The French Philosopher Pascal concluded that belief was the wisest bet because the believer will either have bliss if he is right or oblivion if he is wrong, whereas the atheist has the less attractive alternatives of oblivion or damnation. #1 (The case against God, Gerald Priestland, Page 14)
You must have heard/seen many arguments for and against , I will not bore you with them, you are free to choose for yourself.
However, I like to quote Qoran a lot,even though you might say
"Why are you quoting the Qoran when I do not believe in it?"I will quote anyway,hoping you will read it,you can also ignore if you wish, because I believe Qoran is made easy to learn by its Author, the Most Gracious.
He specifies His mercy for whomever He wills; God possesses unlimited grace.
Those who believe in God, and hold fast to Him, He will admit them into mercy from Him, and grace, and will guide them to Him in a straight path
As for those who repent, reform, and proclaim, I redeem them. I am the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Exempted are those who repent thereafter, and reform. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
..... Your Lord has decreed that mercy is His attribute. Thus, anyone among you who commits a transgression out of ignorance, and repents thereafter and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores God for forgiveness, will find God Forgiving, Most Merciful.
.... "Our Lord, shower us with Your mercy, and bless our affairs with Your guidance."
... `Our Lord, we have believed, so forgive us and shower us with mercy. Of all the merciful ones, You are the Most Merciful.'
... "Our Lord, do not condemn us if we forget or make mistakes. Our Lord, and protect us from blaspheming against You, like those before us have done. Our Lord, protect us from sinning until it becomes too late for us to repent. Pardon us, forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are our Lord and Master...
May the Merciful bless you,forgive you and guide you.
Peace. -
And how about countering the arguments that I wrote rather than trying to act like a wiseguy, jiburl?
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I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are super naturalists.
Peace JiburIshman,
My position on beliefs is quite simple, "we are born with an inclination, and if needed, an access to the
spiritual realm". This statement is not to be taken lightly by someone seeking to understand faith.
Due to the pervading evidence of worship, spiritualism, magic, angels, demons, life after death, and the varying
explanations of the unseen and the human need to find God and there is ample evidence that this phenomenon
has continued throughout the human experience. To be dismissive of this fact actually shows a lack of intelligence,
with all of the anthropological data (the behavioral science branch) one with an unbiased examination can conclude
we humans have a spiritual inclination, like all other cross cultural behaviors like music, love, fear, and all else that
makes us human. For instance Not all people have a belief in the unseen, but cross culturally we do, much
like not all people like music or not all folks fall in love, but our cross cultural behaviors cannot
be dismissed because we personally do not no why such characteristics exist.If we were to discover conscious life in the universe and be able communicate with them in something like a language I'd want to know if they like most people on Earth believe objective claims about reality which have zero evidence.
Here again, I'm sorry, not to be offensive, but intelligent life in the universe is your Santa Claus
i.e., no proof, no evidence. Scientists would like to believe that there is intelligent life out there
with all the stars etc., they ask "how could we be alone?" again, no proof, no evidence that someone is out there.If anyone can give convincing reasons to me I'd like to think I can change my mind on anything if provided with good arguments. If something is true and can directly effect me I wanna know about it. I want to know how things happen, how they came about. Is the universe infinite or did it have a beginning? What's the origin of life? how did biological conciousness first arise from chemical molecules? etc. Religions have treaded on the feet of Science by making claims in these fields.
I'd like to know the answers to these same questions! However those things don't directly affect my every day life.
God bless
peace
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@goodlogic
I have heard of Pascals Wager many a time before.
It has many problems, for example how would you know you're beelining in the right god and won't face the repercussions of not believing in the right one? If I accept Jesus as my personal saviour and god, I'd go to the islamic hell for shirq(polytheism) if it turns out islam is true. If i I believe in Allah and no other as his equal as islam requires and it turns out Christianity is true i'd get thrown in the christian hell for not accepted Jesus as my personal saviour. I suppose you could worm your way out of that by saying "oohh only god knows who really goes to hell" or "as long as you except any god you won't go to hell".
As for oblivion I like the idea as it means I won't have to know my family forever ;D
@ManOfFaith
Arguments for ignorance, which you made are not a reason to believe in a supernatural sorcerer magician. Not having a Scientific explanation for something yet does prove the existence of anything Deity whether it's Krishna, Ahura Mazdha or Allah.
There is a long list of things which people had(and still do) supernatural/spiritual beliefs for which we have now understood the processes much better with naturalistic Scientific explanations. IE epilepsy, thunder/lightning, origin of species etc. If someone has an epileptic fit no Scientifically literate person will now say "oh it's demonic possession, let's have an exorcism", rather he/she will be given anticonvulsants.
If you believe in a god of the gaps as you have demonstrated who directs evolution, created the universe etc and natural explanations are found for these processes will it lead to you jettisoning that belief?
That we have evolved to have many superstitious beliefs is not an argument for those beliefs being true.
When I spoke of Intelligent Life in the universe I said "if" it was discovered. I never made a claim with absolute certainty, which is what one is required to do to be a supernatural theist. Please don't distort or misrepresent what I'm saying, if anything it makes you look slimey and duplicitous.
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Peace JiburIshman.
Ah but there is only one god!!!!!
Have we not agreed before, that there is no Judaism, Christianity, traditional Islam...etc. There are all man made religions?
There is only one system, God s system. While you and I have the choice now, we can choose God s system or man s system,but eventually God s system will prevail after this predetermined period for all of us.
So choose carefully and kill your "ego" now.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
If a person of faith has weak faith, then why do they call themselves a believer, it makes them an an assumer. I value sincerity as a virtue. BTW I've heard these banal mental gymnastics before.
Believer assumer hypoteser whatever names that you see fits, it's practically the same.
When human faced with an 'unknown' / 'unclear' circumstances they will assume, believe, hypothesize about something to fill the gap.
Heck that's how things get started in scientific method anyway..
Start with a 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' and then try to test such 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis'.
If the 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' proven to be incorrect then adjust the 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' and restart the process.Einstein believed that 'black hole' do not exist, yet he's proven wrong after his death..
Einstein believed that 'worm hole' do exist, yet so far no evidence of the existence of such 'worm hole'..
Einstein believed that 'the nazi germany' possess nuclear weapon, and helped to build one for the USA, thus caused hundred of thousand deaths of Japanese civilians, yet he's proven wrong after WWII ended, the nazis do not possess any nuclear weapon.The belief shaped the action..
It's the action that shall be judged..Sincerity and Honesty is a good virtue...
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Peace JiburIshman,
Beliefs are just what the word means, either you believe or you don't, put your calculator away!
I never made a claim with absolute certainty, which is what one is required to do to be a supernatural theist.
Says Who, you? rotfl hail
You said earlier
I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are supernaturalists. The majority of humans have beliefs which lack evidence, this is not just restricted to religion, ie some people uninfected with the god belief believe that George Bush knocked down the Twin Towers.
You are not perplexed my friend, you are in my opinion, jealous or angry but not perplexed, you appear to be
well informed but envious of us who find peace thru faith, while you are left with yourThe only spirits that are reality based to me so far are Gin and Vodka
I noticed you used the words "so far," that's good.
God bless
peace
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I would say he is deluded by this world.
The pathetic impression of world religions do not help either with their object god idol more resembling a grumpy bearded old man in military uniform than an abstract entity that exists in all materia/energy of the world.
Be of one with God
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@goodlogic
clarity in speaking is important, what do you mean by gods system? and how do you know this systems exist? what data do you have access to that nobody else has?
Theism has always been a belief with 100% certainty that a supernatural god exists. If you are not 100% you are an agnostic.
How can one ascertian jealousy or anger through a screen? I find otherwise educated grown adults having invisible, imaginary friends very bizarre and childish and try to understand why they need that.
I don't have the fear that i could very possibly face an eternal holocaust where I'm repeadtly burnt by a god because of thought crimes who doesn't accept me as I am. What exactly is there to be jealous of there? Why would I be jealous on a belief which draws people in through fear mongering and treat people like children who need something to be scared of to manipulate them?
@Man of Faith
Play the ball, not the man. What's with the personal insults? Are you ten years old and in Primary School?
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Jiburl,
Deluded does not necessarily mean I insult you, only that you are fooled to think a certain way. I wrote also that we have the pathetic impression of "world religions" to blame for that.
And "faith" is not the way you think and have been fed with information until now or read poorly translated Arabic/Aramaic scriptures. What is "God" does not require any kind of "belief" or confirmation.
But ignore "God" for starters for that is not the important matter but what is important is who you are. Behavior and deeds is quite essential.
I implied in the previous post that "God" is not some kind of grumpy old skyman in military uniform who yells out orders like a drill sergeant. Entirely without needs or wants, except a final energy charge measurement which determines good vs evil in ourselves and we bring doom upon ourselves and not that "higher power" since the souls are shallow and empty. "God" could care less without any need or wants but also is a goodly spirit so information is out to people who are spiritual enough to perceive it.
Besides I gave you reasons to why you would not be able to exist if it was not for some incomprehensible "higher power". Since you ignore that and do not answer my questions I took you for deluded and that is not intended as an insult but rather as a state you are in. You cannot "disbelieve" in something that is obvious so all you can be is deluded. And you can be part of it but you cannot "believe" in it because it is obvious.
And if you have nothing to say but irony or even sarcastic remarks then so be it. Enjoy yourself. But I would mind my behavior if I were you.
Be united
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Peace JiburIshman.
I simply have "my proof". Searched ,studied ,compared ,reflected,observed, checked... Now I am certain about the existence of my Creator and His system.
Of course "proof" is for the believers,which is another issue.
We may be on a different path /journey at the moment,but one day we will both realise the true path. I just hope that it is not too late for either me or you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@Man of Faith
Yuur mental contortions obfuscate things more than they provide lucidity. How can you even know what a god wants/needs or doesn't want/need when no god can even be discerned?
Besides I gave you reasons to why you would not be able to exist if it was not for some incomprehensible "higher power".
up to now we know that some things are created and some don't require a creator. The "what ever begins to exist need a creator" fallacy is outdated armchair philosophy that has been demonstrably debunked and proven to be untrue with Quantam Mechanics.
@good logic
personal visceral feelings are not proof of an objective claim. Those same type of subjective feelings lead to many other people to a completely different religious certainty belief which are irreconcilable with yours. How would it be possible to work out between yours and a persons whose religious belief is different whose is true and untrue ?
peace
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Peace JiburIshman.
I recognise the differences and respect that each one of us has the freedom to choose.
Do you?
Then, we agree to disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Quantum physics only prove the phenomenon of "God" or a 'Constancy' effect even better. Science is good to explain what that 'Constancy' is. And science also creates new questions to be asked.
But it is not fallible to think a "background intelligence" is needed for life to evolve. Either that little cell is very intelligent or there is higher intelligence. What do you think is true?
It is not a fallible argument at all, or how would you expect that the universe with its energy have everything bind together. I find it is more fallible and irrational saying there is no "higher power". Please answer the questions instead of trying to be arrogant.
But you have a deluded image of what is "God". Because you think it is an object while it is an abstract force/energy, and it is the expanding universe itself and all its energy. What else do you think is causing everything in the world including imaginative looking animals and all sorts of wonderful phenomena. You think nature needed it itself?
You think nature knew what looks nice?
What caused gravity to exist?
Why do atoms stick together and form molecules?
What keeps the universe with all its mass to keep together?
There are so many questions I could ask you and you find no answers except some rude response and a delusive reply about something called "God" that I do not stand by, because you do not look beyond your own own scope. Come up with something instead of some generic replies.
And not have you yet explained my original question without showing the worst of attitude.
And there is no needs or wants for that 'constancy' but only people who are good and are aligned.
Gain harmony, will you?
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Science doen't know everything, it knows alot of things. Religion doesn't know anything
I find the the anathema for Science on here astonishingly hypocritical, considering everyone is on here on a laptop/PC, something given to us by applied Science ROLLEYES
You thought I am against science? No, I am not. I just warn against overconfidence. You would know it only if you go in masters. From your discussion so far it seems that you have least amount of knowledge about both science and religion.
I have a very bad news for you. Whether it is UK or US, when the lawmakers work on ethical laws, they look into to religions esp, Bible, Torah and Quran. What is funny is that despite your rejection to religions, you are abiding by them. How do I know it? I am a student of Public Administration and ethical policy is a central theme I work with. Another bad news is that UK is number 4 country to adhere to Quran faithfully. Third, science cannot work without the help of patterns.
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Religion brings people to the Pagan materialistic god which jiburl objects against, but that is not really what "god" is. The word "god" is a very poor choice actually, particularly when talking to someone who is ignorant of what it means.
Science explains what this universe really is. A mixture of different variations of energy. And what controls the atoms in the first place? What makes them have the characteristics that they have? A knowledgeable adherent to science should have far more questions regarding their existence than a narrow-minded Pagan-god obsessed person.
I find that anyone studied science should realize there is some kind of "higher intelligence" due to what they know. Not a god but a kind of 'Constancy', a force, something that caused creatures with all sorts of imaginative appearances to evolve.
Be of one in the 'Foundation' (rabb)
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I always thought why in quran is is said there is no god only Allah ? So assuming quran to be divinely inspired , we have to take its word for it that is there is no god. In that case Allah cannot be a god. God is only an abstract projection of the human mind of the unknown. It can take many shapes and forms depending on circumstances. Rituals and religion follow because god requires religion and rituals. Then it is institutionalised through specific class of scholars and clergy. This class claim to have information about god. Whoever controls information controls the mind. Effectively men then become enslaved to this institutionalised religion and an exploitative cycle begins. Power play soon begins in the form of wars and politics. The way I see it religion has only acted in negative in the course of human progress. Maybe we need to think out of the box as quran commanded. Then we may see the truth for what it is.
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Faith be upon you Shogunsami,
I always thought why in quran is is said there is no god only Allah ? So assuming quran to be divinely inspired , we have to take its word for it that is there is no god. In that case Allah cannot be a god.
You walk alright brother, there is no god in traditional regard but Allah is above being a god not being a concrete fathomable entity. And a person joins with "God" rather than remaining separate and they delete their ego and become assimilated IN God (not to be confused with being God propagated and misunderstood by some people). Only then they will enter the narrow gate of "God's" realm. All together fill up what is Allah. It is complicated to explain just as it is complicated how the universe works such as that scientists are unto right now.
It can take many shapes and forms depending on circumstances.
This is true, but you most observe that the Allah is the universe itself with its energy which is to us an illusion of solidity. It has just as much form as the energy of the universe. And this way it can also create through simply will it and it is, because the creation is formed out of the energy.
Rituals and religion follow because god requires religion and rituals. Then it is institutionalised through specific class of scholars and clergy. This class claim to have information about god.
They are a bunch of hypocrites like Jesus put it, the clerics and scholars.
Maybe we need to think out of the box as quran commanded. Then we may see the truth for what it is.
Exactly the way I am speaking. One must think out of the box. Only when being separate from the bias and conjecture the right faith will take form. The truth is one must separate the spirit from the flesh.
Be faithful to the Rabb
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Thanks brother. I think we think alike. I still don't know if universe itself is Allah . I am thinking along the line of panentheism . It makes much more sense from what I gather from quran. The concept is the shared by Vedas and is found in Buddhism and Taoism. Even the Native American Indians shared the same belief. Maybe that is the message of quran. No deities remote controlling things. Everything happens on the basis of certain universal laws. Karma is real. You do good you get good. You do bad it will boomerang on you at some point in your life. So watch what you say and do. Do you think we should use the word god? At the end of the day word god only conjures an idea of deity in people's mind!