Greetings Infidels
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I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are super naturalists.
Peace JiburIshman,
My position on beliefs is quite simple, "we are born with an inclination, and if needed, an access to the
spiritual realm". This statement is not to be taken lightly by someone seeking to understand faith.
Due to the pervading evidence of worship, spiritualism, magic, angels, demons, life after death, and the varying
explanations of the unseen and the human need to find God and there is ample evidence that this phenomenon
has continued throughout the human experience. To be dismissive of this fact actually shows a lack of intelligence,
with all of the anthropological data (the behavioral science branch) one with an unbiased examination can conclude
we humans have a spiritual inclination, like all other cross cultural behaviors like music, love, fear, and all else that
makes us human. For instance Not all people have a belief in the unseen, but cross culturally we do, much
like not all people like music or not all folks fall in love, but our cross cultural behaviors cannot
be dismissed because we personally do not no why such characteristics exist.If we were to discover conscious life in the universe and be able communicate with them in something like a language I'd want to know if they like most people on Earth believe objective claims about reality which have zero evidence.
Here again, I'm sorry, not to be offensive, but intelligent life in the universe is your Santa Claus
i.e., no proof, no evidence. Scientists would like to believe that there is intelligent life out there
with all the stars etc., they ask "how could we be alone?" again, no proof, no evidence that someone is out there.If anyone can give convincing reasons to me I'd like to think I can change my mind on anything if provided with good arguments. If something is true and can directly effect me I wanna know about it. I want to know how things happen, how they came about. Is the universe infinite or did it have a beginning? What's the origin of life? how did biological conciousness first arise from chemical molecules? etc. Religions have treaded on the feet of Science by making claims in these fields.
I'd like to know the answers to these same questions! However those things don't directly affect my every day life.
God bless
peace
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@goodlogic
I have heard of Pascals Wager many a time before.
It has many problems, for example how would you know you're beelining in the right god and won't face the repercussions of not believing in the right one? If I accept Jesus as my personal saviour and god, I'd go to the islamic hell for shirq(polytheism) if it turns out islam is true. If i I believe in Allah and no other as his equal as islam requires and it turns out Christianity is true i'd get thrown in the christian hell for not accepted Jesus as my personal saviour. I suppose you could worm your way out of that by saying "oohh only god knows who really goes to hell" or "as long as you except any god you won't go to hell".
As for oblivion I like the idea as it means I won't have to know my family forever ;D
@ManOfFaith
Arguments for ignorance, which you made are not a reason to believe in a supernatural sorcerer magician. Not having a Scientific explanation for something yet does prove the existence of anything Deity whether it's Krishna, Ahura Mazdha or Allah.
There is a long list of things which people had(and still do) supernatural/spiritual beliefs for which we have now understood the processes much better with naturalistic Scientific explanations. IE epilepsy, thunder/lightning, origin of species etc. If someone has an epileptic fit no Scientifically literate person will now say "oh it's demonic possession, let's have an exorcism", rather he/she will be given anticonvulsants.
If you believe in a god of the gaps as you have demonstrated who directs evolution, created the universe etc and natural explanations are found for these processes will it lead to you jettisoning that belief?
That we have evolved to have many superstitious beliefs is not an argument for those beliefs being true.
When I spoke of Intelligent Life in the universe I said "if" it was discovered. I never made a claim with absolute certainty, which is what one is required to do to be a supernatural theist. Please don't distort or misrepresent what I'm saying, if anything it makes you look slimey and duplicitous.
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Peace JiburIshman.
Ah but there is only one god!!!!!
Have we not agreed before, that there is no Judaism, Christianity, traditional Islam...etc. There are all man made religions?
There is only one system, God s system. While you and I have the choice now, we can choose God s system or man s system,but eventually God s system will prevail after this predetermined period for all of us.
So choose carefully and kill your "ego" now.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
If a person of faith has weak faith, then why do they call themselves a believer, it makes them an an assumer. I value sincerity as a virtue. BTW I've heard these banal mental gymnastics before.
Believer assumer hypoteser whatever names that you see fits, it's practically the same.
When human faced with an 'unknown' / 'unclear' circumstances they will assume, believe, hypothesize about something to fill the gap.
Heck that's how things get started in scientific method anyway..
Start with a 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' and then try to test such 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis'.
If the 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' proven to be incorrect then adjust the 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' and restart the process.Einstein believed that 'black hole' do not exist, yet he's proven wrong after his death..
Einstein believed that 'worm hole' do exist, yet so far no evidence of the existence of such 'worm hole'..
Einstein believed that 'the nazi germany' possess nuclear weapon, and helped to build one for the USA, thus caused hundred of thousand deaths of Japanese civilians, yet he's proven wrong after WWII ended, the nazis do not possess any nuclear weapon.The belief shaped the action..
It's the action that shall be judged..Sincerity and Honesty is a good virtue...
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Peace JiburIshman,
Beliefs are just what the word means, either you believe or you don't, put your calculator away!
I never made a claim with absolute certainty, which is what one is required to do to be a supernatural theist.
Says Who, you? rotfl hail
You said earlier
I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are supernaturalists. The majority of humans have beliefs which lack evidence, this is not just restricted to religion, ie some people uninfected with the god belief believe that George Bush knocked down the Twin Towers.
You are not perplexed my friend, you are in my opinion, jealous or angry but not perplexed, you appear to be
well informed but envious of us who find peace thru faith, while you are left with yourThe only spirits that are reality based to me so far are Gin and Vodka
I noticed you used the words "so far," that's good.
God bless
peace
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I would say he is deluded by this world.
The pathetic impression of world religions do not help either with their object god idol more resembling a grumpy bearded old man in military uniform than an abstract entity that exists in all materia/energy of the world.
Be of one with God
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@goodlogic
clarity in speaking is important, what do you mean by gods system? and how do you know this systems exist? what data do you have access to that nobody else has?
Theism has always been a belief with 100% certainty that a supernatural god exists. If you are not 100% you are an agnostic.
How can one ascertian jealousy or anger through a screen? I find otherwise educated grown adults having invisible, imaginary friends very bizarre and childish and try to understand why they need that.
I don't have the fear that i could very possibly face an eternal holocaust where I'm repeadtly burnt by a god because of thought crimes who doesn't accept me as I am. What exactly is there to be jealous of there? Why would I be jealous on a belief which draws people in through fear mongering and treat people like children who need something to be scared of to manipulate them?
@Man of Faith
Play the ball, not the man. What's with the personal insults? Are you ten years old and in Primary School?
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Jiburl,
Deluded does not necessarily mean I insult you, only that you are fooled to think a certain way. I wrote also that we have the pathetic impression of "world religions" to blame for that.
And "faith" is not the way you think and have been fed with information until now or read poorly translated Arabic/Aramaic scriptures. What is "God" does not require any kind of "belief" or confirmation.
But ignore "God" for starters for that is not the important matter but what is important is who you are. Behavior and deeds is quite essential.
I implied in the previous post that "God" is not some kind of grumpy old skyman in military uniform who yells out orders like a drill sergeant. Entirely without needs or wants, except a final energy charge measurement which determines good vs evil in ourselves and we bring doom upon ourselves and not that "higher power" since the souls are shallow and empty. "God" could care less without any need or wants but also is a goodly spirit so information is out to people who are spiritual enough to perceive it.
Besides I gave you reasons to why you would not be able to exist if it was not for some incomprehensible "higher power". Since you ignore that and do not answer my questions I took you for deluded and that is not intended as an insult but rather as a state you are in. You cannot "disbelieve" in something that is obvious so all you can be is deluded. And you can be part of it but you cannot "believe" in it because it is obvious.
And if you have nothing to say but irony or even sarcastic remarks then so be it. Enjoy yourself. But I would mind my behavior if I were you.
Be united
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Peace JiburIshman.
I simply have "my proof". Searched ,studied ,compared ,reflected,observed, checked... Now I am certain about the existence of my Creator and His system.
Of course "proof" is for the believers,which is another issue.
We may be on a different path /journey at the moment,but one day we will both realise the true path. I just hope that it is not too late for either me or you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@Man of Faith
Yuur mental contortions obfuscate things more than they provide lucidity. How can you even know what a god wants/needs or doesn't want/need when no god can even be discerned?
Besides I gave you reasons to why you would not be able to exist if it was not for some incomprehensible "higher power".
up to now we know that some things are created and some don't require a creator. The "what ever begins to exist need a creator" fallacy is outdated armchair philosophy that has been demonstrably debunked and proven to be untrue with Quantam Mechanics.
@good logic
personal visceral feelings are not proof of an objective claim. Those same type of subjective feelings lead to many other people to a completely different religious certainty belief which are irreconcilable with yours. How would it be possible to work out between yours and a persons whose religious belief is different whose is true and untrue ?
peace
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Peace JiburIshman.
I recognise the differences and respect that each one of us has the freedom to choose.
Do you?
Then, we agree to disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Quantum physics only prove the phenomenon of "God" or a 'Constancy' effect even better. Science is good to explain what that 'Constancy' is. And science also creates new questions to be asked.
But it is not fallible to think a "background intelligence" is needed for life to evolve. Either that little cell is very intelligent or there is higher intelligence. What do you think is true?
It is not a fallible argument at all, or how would you expect that the universe with its energy have everything bind together. I find it is more fallible and irrational saying there is no "higher power". Please answer the questions instead of trying to be arrogant.
But you have a deluded image of what is "God". Because you think it is an object while it is an abstract force/energy, and it is the expanding universe itself and all its energy. What else do you think is causing everything in the world including imaginative looking animals and all sorts of wonderful phenomena. You think nature needed it itself?
You think nature knew what looks nice?
What caused gravity to exist?
Why do atoms stick together and form molecules?
What keeps the universe with all its mass to keep together?
There are so many questions I could ask you and you find no answers except some rude response and a delusive reply about something called "God" that I do not stand by, because you do not look beyond your own own scope. Come up with something instead of some generic replies.
And not have you yet explained my original question without showing the worst of attitude.
And there is no needs or wants for that 'constancy' but only people who are good and are aligned.
Gain harmony, will you?
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Science doen't know everything, it knows alot of things. Religion doesn't know anything
I find the the anathema for Science on here astonishingly hypocritical, considering everyone is on here on a laptop/PC, something given to us by applied Science ROLLEYES
You thought I am against science? No, I am not. I just warn against overconfidence. You would know it only if you go in masters. From your discussion so far it seems that you have least amount of knowledge about both science and religion.
I have a very bad news for you. Whether it is UK or US, when the lawmakers work on ethical laws, they look into to religions esp, Bible, Torah and Quran. What is funny is that despite your rejection to religions, you are abiding by them. How do I know it? I am a student of Public Administration and ethical policy is a central theme I work with. Another bad news is that UK is number 4 country to adhere to Quran faithfully. Third, science cannot work without the help of patterns.
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Religion brings people to the Pagan materialistic god which jiburl objects against, but that is not really what "god" is. The word "god" is a very poor choice actually, particularly when talking to someone who is ignorant of what it means.
Science explains what this universe really is. A mixture of different variations of energy. And what controls the atoms in the first place? What makes them have the characteristics that they have? A knowledgeable adherent to science should have far more questions regarding their existence than a narrow-minded Pagan-god obsessed person.
I find that anyone studied science should realize there is some kind of "higher intelligence" due to what they know. Not a god but a kind of 'Constancy', a force, something that caused creatures with all sorts of imaginative appearances to evolve.
Be of one in the 'Foundation' (rabb)
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I always thought why in quran is is said there is no god only Allah ? So assuming quran to be divinely inspired , we have to take its word for it that is there is no god. In that case Allah cannot be a god. God is only an abstract projection of the human mind of the unknown. It can take many shapes and forms depending on circumstances. Rituals and religion follow because god requires religion and rituals. Then it is institutionalised through specific class of scholars and clergy. This class claim to have information about god. Whoever controls information controls the mind. Effectively men then become enslaved to this institutionalised religion and an exploitative cycle begins. Power play soon begins in the form of wars and politics. The way I see it religion has only acted in negative in the course of human progress. Maybe we need to think out of the box as quran commanded. Then we may see the truth for what it is.
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Faith be upon you Shogunsami,
I always thought why in quran is is said there is no god only Allah ? So assuming quran to be divinely inspired , we have to take its word for it that is there is no god. In that case Allah cannot be a god.
You walk alright brother, there is no god in traditional regard but Allah is above being a god not being a concrete fathomable entity. And a person joins with "God" rather than remaining separate and they delete their ego and become assimilated IN God (not to be confused with being God propagated and misunderstood by some people). Only then they will enter the narrow gate of "God's" realm. All together fill up what is Allah. It is complicated to explain just as it is complicated how the universe works such as that scientists are unto right now.
It can take many shapes and forms depending on circumstances.
This is true, but you most observe that the Allah is the universe itself with its energy which is to us an illusion of solidity. It has just as much form as the energy of the universe. And this way it can also create through simply will it and it is, because the creation is formed out of the energy.
Rituals and religion follow because god requires religion and rituals. Then it is institutionalised through specific class of scholars and clergy. This class claim to have information about god.
They are a bunch of hypocrites like Jesus put it, the clerics and scholars.
Maybe we need to think out of the box as quran commanded. Then we may see the truth for what it is.
Exactly the way I am speaking. One must think out of the box. Only when being separate from the bias and conjecture the right faith will take form. The truth is one must separate the spirit from the flesh.
Be faithful to the Rabb
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Thanks brother. I think we think alike. I still don't know if universe itself is Allah . I am thinking along the line of panentheism . It makes much more sense from what I gather from quran. The concept is the shared by Vedas and is found in Buddhism and Taoism. Even the Native American Indians shared the same belief. Maybe that is the message of quran. No deities remote controlling things. Everything happens on the basis of certain universal laws. Karma is real. You do good you get good. You do bad it will boomerang on you at some point in your life. So watch what you say and do. Do you think we should use the word god? At the end of the day word god only conjures an idea of deity in people's mind!
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Faith be upon you Shogun,
I still don't know if universe itself is Allah
Okay. Perchance you shall see in time.
No deities remote controlling things.
No exactly. The Creator is not a remote being but we exist in it within an illusion that looks concrete. We must just come into realization with this until it is too late. The way of joining is letting ourselves get absorbed by aligning ourselves to accept that we exist in the Creator.
Karma is real. You do good you get good. You do bad it will boomerang on you at some point in your life.
Yes and no. I would say that it is a gauge that has -100 to +100 and in the shape you die will measure your change of being in the realm of the Creator. Below 0 and you are a Jinn, i.e. faithless being. Most people who just merely live their lives completely empty-minded and do only think within their little box can be said to be here, while the worst Jinns are rated from 0 to -100 and Shaitaan is likely -100. One bring his own Jinn-ness upon themselves. A Jinn cannot think straight and live in a delusion much like the ISIS (Islamic Satans InSane also called Islamic State). You can be religious and Jinn because it does not have anything to do with perceived belief for that kind of thing is just a part of sects. A Jinn is easy to fool and has square-like thinking because they follow like lemmings. They can think they are shrewd but since they think with their ego it is usually always connoted with some sort of disaster and mischief.
The worst human Jinns are the clerics and scholars in various sects. They have in common that they are highly susceptible to Paganism and rituals and they interpret scriptures in a sterile way and if they do not know some interpretation for sure they fall to conjecture and guesswork in their pride not to look bad in front of others. And they love traditions without verifying or questioning wherever they come from or if they are against ancient decrees of the Creator. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that they only see the world materialistically, so a god is always portrayed like a physical object with understandable and earthly traits rather than abstract entity. Their worst deception is their hypocrisy about faith while at least secular Jinns are honest that they have no faith.
Otherwise from 0 to +100 you have faith of varying degree, but if you cannot think outside of the box like in the narratives about 'Jesus' in the Biblical scriptures then you have weak faith. When one thinks "Everything is possible, nothing is impossible", then one has faith. If you pray and you have faith it comes true, then both does it likely come true sooner or later and you show strong faith.
So watch what you say and do.
Yes. Even sneering at people has its detrimental effect.
Do you think we should use the word god?
I dislike the word for it misrepresents the Creator. Until now I have used "God" with quotation marks. It is not that I do not have faith in a superpower above everything, absolutely not, but I also do not wish to make an image out of the Creator because I know this is a big fallacy as according to the 'Law of Moses', which people do not really understand. You need to enter the one image abstractly rather than paint an image separately.
'Allah' is a very good Arabic word, but it feels unnecessary to maintain Arabic terminology for words you know their meaning of, although I know no substitute to the word 'Allah' at this time (be THAT (be) thereby or simply IS THAT IS).
At the end of the day word god only conjures an idea of deity in people's mind!
I wonder how many men have turned insane because of the god delusion. People often look for the wrong thing when they think of a god. One must diminish the separate image of "God" and instead attain it himself to enter the realm. The Creator is like the 'Borg' in Star Trek, you join a collective and share the strength by belonging to it and its foundation is the Creator, although in reality The Creator is not so dogmatic as in the fiction, but I hope you get my point.
But if you seek an object as entity you will look for the wrong things and if you worship in a Pagan way it is futile. You cannot bribe your way into the realm through many words like if you could impress the Creator. No, it is the deeds and behavior that will bring the one into the realm. Delete that ego, pride, arrogance, desire, and you shall enter the narrow gate. And the realm exists as we speak, just get assimilated. Cease to exist in the flesh and attain spirit form and you will immediately feel much lighter.
This is why it is harder for the greedy people. The one that has nothing to lose, has little flesh too, for the pride in the flesh causes one to fail to attain the spirit. Jesus drew a parallel with nature and that the Creator sustains the animals without them being conscious about it and the same can be true for a human as well. We could learn something from his words.
Be faithful to the Rabb/Creator
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@goodlogic
I respect the right for people to believe in a invisible, impalpable higher power and performing prayer rituals to it. I don't respect that as a intellectual belief, but a belief one has the right to hold with no interference from the state as long as that person causes no physical harm to others or use that belief as a validation to subject others(as many muslims do with islamic scriptures and some jews do with Judaism)
Similarly I don't find astrology a respectable/intelligent belief but I don't think holding astrological beliefs should lead to criminal prosecutions.
In thinking critically I think it's better to abstain from believing in objective claims until sufficient evidence is provided and if you do believe without evidence in my opinion requires alot of gullibility and a false methodology of ascertaining objective claims.
@Man of Faith
Quantum physics only prove the phenomenon of "God" or a 'Constancy' effect even better.
Quantam Physics shows no empirical proof of any god or the role of any god in the mechanism. If you are able to provide "PROOF" of a god involved in any Scientific process I suggest you submit your data and becomed renowned for discovering a "god" and then recieve a Nobel Prize too.
My point about Quantam physics was related to it demonstrating how not everything created requires a cause. Hence making god completely redundant.
But it is not fallible to think a "background intelligence" is needed for life to evolve. Either that little cell is very intelligent or there is higher intelligence.
I wouldn't regard humans as particularly intelligent. Granted we are more intelligent than other species but we define ourselves with the superlative of "intelligent" by our own standards. If there is a species out there in the universe 1.5% smarter than us watching us than us they'd be saying "look at these dumb humans, we are the intelligence ones"
It is not a fallible argument at all, or how would you expect that the universe with its energy have everything
bind together. I find it is more fallible and irrational saying there is no "higher power".We don't know all the answers yet, being honest and humble and saying "I don't know" for what Science doesn't know is how Science works. Absolute certainty without a crumb of proof is the domain of religion/theism/deists.
The same question could be posed to you. How does gods energy bind together as one and from where. Of course you'd then use the special pleading fallacy of "ohhh but there's different rules for god"
You think nature knew what looks nice? What caused gravity to exist?Why do atoms stick together and form molecules?
These are just arguements from ignorance and the notable god of the gaps fallacy.
it seems you're very uncomfortable with answers of "we don't know yet". This is why it's problematic
http//i.imgur.com/a1U4S6H.jpgReligion brings people to the Pagan materialistic god which jiburl objects against, but that is not really what "god" is. The word "god" is a very poor choice actually, particularly when talking to someone who is ignorant of what it means.
My second reply showed I'm not ignorant of what god means and you're doing exactly what I said theists do
with the term god lol
God is a slippery term that means many different things and can mean anything. When something can mean anything it can't mean anything.@reel
You thought I am against science? No, I am not.not you specifically, the general vibe amongst replies.
From your discussion so far it seems that you have least amount of knowledge about both science and religion.
Right let's resort to ad hominems
I have a very bad news for you. Whether it is UK or US, when the lawmakers work on ethical laws, they look into to religions esp, Bible, Torah and Quran.
This is just patently false and the most preposterous and ridicilous thing anyone has said in this thread so far. In the UK and many US states The more gay friendly laws are completely antithetical to homophobic abrahamic scriptures. Also how does the freedom of religion abide by the abrahamic scriptures which tell you to kill people for leaving the religion ?
What is funny is that despite your rejection to religions, you are abiding by them.
lol, another stupid baseless comment. I do many harmless things which would be regarded as "sin" by religions.
Another bad news is that UK is number 4 country to adhere to Quran faithfully.
I highly doubt that, not many people in the uK take sex slaves and behead people as endorsed in the quran. -
Peace JiburIshman.
Thank you for your reply.
Since you believe in Science but not in a Designer/Creator, here is some Science
http//submission.org/sign_in_the_universe.html
GOD bless you.
Peace.