Quran and secularism - A future essay

Farabi

There is point where secularism supported by the quran like no compulsion on religion ahd there is point are not like forgetung God on our daily life.

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace Farabi

Thank you for your post. The fact that there is no compulsion in Islam, seems to suggest that the Quran supports secularism - at least to a certain degree. I wonder if there are more verses in the Quran that seem to support secularism.

The Quran contains many laws that can be implemented in a society. Therefore it seems that islam is not just about personal belief. Deen seems to be both something personal and something collective. The Quran has laws for crime, marriage, economy and war. The Quran seems to suggest that the Quranic laws should be implemented in a society. How can the laws of the Quran be implemented in a society if politics are separated from deen? This is a question we should ponder upon.

I think that most people in Arab countries and other countries with non-secular (traditional islamic) systems would have no problem with accepting Quranic laws into their constitution if a quranic reform took place in their countries. But if the Quranic laws are going to become a part of the laws in secular countries, most people in these countries with probably resist the idea of such changes. Because most people in European countries and other countries with secular systems seem to believe that the Quran is against modernity, against science, against human rights and against democracy. Hence they will most likely resent the idea of Quranic laws being implemented in their society. If the Quranic laws are to be implemented in countries with secular systems, they have to be masked/concealed and the new system has to resemble the old system (if people are to accept it). As soon as someone calls the laws Quranic, most people in secular countries will probably resent the idea of implementing those laws and they will reject those laws (because they associate the laws of the Quran with the laws of traditional islam). Anyway, this is getting off-topic. So let's get back to the topic. Do you know if there are other verses in the Quran that support secularism?

reel

Some verses

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, , would you compel the people in order that they become believers?1099

Meaning we have no right to force someone to convert

And when they hear ill speech, they turn away from it and say, "For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. Peace will be upon you; we seek not the ignorant.2855

Meaning freedom of speech, if we dont like what someone is saying we should just leave it

And when you see those who engage in discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people.688

Meaning Once again, its freedom of speech. Hold no enmity with the one saying bad stuff about Quran verses. The opposite means satan is instigating us.

To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation , but to test you in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.548

O humanity! We have indeed created you from one man and one woman, and have made you into various nations and tribes so that you may know one another 4913

Meaning Freedom of religion, freedom of expression. Respect the people of other religions, races and cultures. If Allah wanted us to stay all of us one, he would have put us in a country separate from people of all other religions.

Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong They are the ones to attain felicity. 3104

Those who fabricate false prohibitions after this, and attribute them to God, are truly wicked.394

Meaning Make laws that are ethical and don't say they came from Allah. Use fair judgement. Don't say this is Islamic, that is Islamic

Whoever disbelieves in Allah after his belief... except for one who is forced while his heart is secure in faith. But those who open their breasts to disbelief, upon them is wrath from Allah , and for them is a great punishment. 16106

That is because they preferred the worldly life over the Hereafter and that Allah does not guide the disbelieving people. 16107

Those are the ones over whose hearts and hearing and vision Allah has sealed, and it is those who are the heedless.16108

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place.1829

and those who suppress anger and pardon men; and Allah loves those who do good.3135

Meaning Freedom of Choice. Notice that nowhere in these verses Allah tells Muslims to punish the ex Muslim or someone who doesnt convert even after hearing about Islam. The punishment job will be done actually by Allah himself.

I'll add more when I get time.

Farabi

Hi Taro,
If the quran preached withouth any other laws most people im pretty sure will accepted it. But since most people assosiate quran and islam with law outside of quran lots of people reject. I think I get your point.

Jafar

Peace everyone

Many people claim that the Quran supports secularism. And many people claim that the Quran does not support secularism. I wonder if there are any verses in the Quran that support secularism. Since my knowledge about the Quranic perspective on secularism is limited, I have not taken a stance when it comes to the Quranic view on secularism. Hence I am not for or against secularism - at least not yet.

Do you think that the Quran supports secularism? If you believe that the Quran supports secularism, can you show me which verses in the Quran that support secularism?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

By the time when Quran was being written, the terminology of "Secularism" doesn't exist.
Thus you need to understand "What Is Secularism", it's main concept, nuances and history before delving further.

First the history..
Everything in this universe is based on "Cause and Effect" law.

The "Cause" of Secularism is "Religionism", or in other words tight grip of "Religion" within state politic and society.
Specifically the tight grip of Roman Catholic church headquartered in Rome within ex-western-Romanic european kingdom.

The "Roman Catholic Religionism" has caused so many trouble both to the 'ruling' class (Every king need an approval from Rome) and to the 'commoner'.. (e.g. Oppression / torture / massacre of those who dare to propose different ideas than the one endorsed or authorized by the catholic church)

Some example
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Inquisition
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Protestant_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_early_modern_period

The effect or reaction to that was a demand to "Separate The Roman Catholic Church from The State/Kingdom".
Or in other words, stripping all political power from the priestly class of Roman Catholic religion.
To achieve that among the action point was a declaration of "No State's official religion" which evolved into "Freedom of religion for all citizen within state/kingdom which adopt Secularism" and then evolved further into "Freedom of belief and opinion".

Now about the Quran.

There's nothing in the Quran that support "Religionism". (The cause and anti-thesis of Secularism)
There's nothing in the Quran that support "Church" or "Dogmatic Religious Authority". (the "enemy" of Secularism)
The infamous statement of "La Ikraha Fiddien", no compulsion in opinion/attitude/belief, on 2256

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace Farabi, Reel and Jafar,

Thank you for your posts/comments.

drfazl

To Be Secular Is The Ordainment

Peace,

Quran is full of Signs or the Ayats from Allah that governs the all universes. And the Signs are revealed to them who believe in the Signs of Allah so their lives rise high above the Nature to have a say over them by the Leave of Allah.

Man is full of belief in Science or submission to the worldly laws of physiques and physics. Allah has allowed each one a life span on this earth upon a period determined before the end of which period he is taught enough of His Signs that have every power over all the men's sciences and disciplines. Thus Allah has allowed each his lifetime till his death, to observe, to listen and to rise him to the degree to beat the sciences with His Signs. Thus we are ordained to be secular(worldly) as one mankind, till death overtakes every one of us, individually, in a natural way.

Sonny

In order to understand what "secular soceity" is you need to study origin of that word/system.

Word "Secular" comes from Latin word "Seclorum" which means "to go apart, withdraw, separate"

This is explanation of Secular system One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.

Secular in 3. words means "No Creator Allowed" and since Quran is word of Creator, its more than obvious.

I wanna show you occult symbolism on american dollar

https//d1hekt5vpuuw9b.cloudfront.net/assets/cc0823705e1f5629946a1faf45895d16_slide-8-novus-ordo_gallery.jpg

Its says Novus Ordo Seclorum which means New "Secular" World Order and pyramid with an eye on the top is symbol of Egyptian sun god Horus.

Here is popular artist Eminem flashing Eye of Horus satanic symbol to his zombies http//i.ytimg.com/vi/hkS0VgLS2mM/hqdefault.jpg

Any form od Secular(Godless) system is forbidden in islam since muslims have been commanded to live according to Creator's "Law of the Nature" and not men made laws.

drfazl

Word "Secular" comes from Latin word "Seclorum" which means "to go apart, withdraw, separate"

The Quran is the only Book that keeps one on his individuality in accordance with the conscience the base of the humaneness. Here is the strongest ordainment that commands secularism.

Say "O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to (each of) you from your God; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your God shall make many of them increase in obstinate rebellion(to go against conscience) and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people."

This means "Seclorum" which means "to go apart, withdraw, separate"

to go apart from the obstinate rebellions to one's own conscience;
to withdraw from the obstinate rebellions to one's own conscience;
to separate from the obstinate rebellions to one's own conscience.

Quran is the only Book that speaks of Secularism.

Sonny

Quran is the only Book that speaks of Secularism.

So you wanna say that system that is NOT based according to Quran is better than a system that is made according to Quran? In a secular system Quran is forbidden, you know. Things that you have posted has nothing to do with secularism.

Fusion

In my view based on my limited knowledge about Quran, Allah does not support Securalism (I meant here Allah and not Quran- I know its word of God) whereby Allah has talked about so many ways, examples, the universe around us, even with ourselves, the purpose of all those verses is one which is to accept God as the ONE creator alone and seek no partners. Now the verses in Quran which people take to support is actually implying that Allah wanted to mention that there will always be some people who after seeing all the signs etc will still NOT accept the existence of One True God so therefore no one, not even prophet can turn their hearts.

I believe the very basis of all revelations is to know the creator (which is anti secularism)

Unless of course if I understood the word Secular wrongly.

http//www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/secular
Not connected with religious or spiritual matters

If the secular means not following any of the world religions but still believe in one God, then I am wrong and in which case we have example of prophet Ibrahim.

Cheers

Zulf

A belief in a Creator simply cannot be institutionalized.
All people won't believe in a Creator.
You cannot force people to believe in a Creator.
A belief in a Creator is personal.

HOWEVER... the way we act and behave in society concerns us all.
What we need to do is to discuss and adopt the most beneficial habits and rules for society. This has to be agreed upon, otherwise it is useless. The problem with religion is that it tells people what to think, believe and do, for no other reason than that some book says something (or is interpreted as saying something). Religion says "do this and think this, because God has said so in this book".

So, religion is imposing things on you, but in a secular society we can have laws according to God's natural system. But the reasons people will adopt such laws should be based on reasoning and beneficial value to the members of society. Faith is useless here, because everyone will not believe the same anyway. It is however easier to agree on social laws that are designed to keep people safe, free and empowered. Religious societies are doomed. Only societies based on goodness and reality will succeed.

Peace

reel

In order to understand what "secular soceity" is you need to study origin of that word/system.

Word "Secular" comes from Latin word "Seclorum" which means "to go apart, withdraw, separate"

This is explanation of Secular system One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.

Secular in 3. words means "No Creator Allowed" and since Quran is word of Creator, its more than obvious.

I wanna show you occult symbolism on american dollar

https//d1hekt5vpuuw9b.cloudfront.net/assets/cc0823705e1f5629946a1faf45895d16_slide-8-novus-ordo_gallery.jpg

Its says Novus Ordo Seclorum which means New "Secular" World Order and pyramid with an eye on the top is symbol of Egyptian sun god Horus.

Here is popular artist Eminem flashing Eye of Horus satanic symbol to his zombies http//i.ytimg.com/vi/hkS0VgLS2mM/hqdefault.jpg

Any form od Secular(Godless) system is forbidden in islam since muslims have been commanded to live according to Creator's "Law of the Nature" and not men made laws.

Thanks for bringing it up Sony. I have a strong feeling that Thomas Jefferson extracted lots of stuffs from Quran for US. Here is a piece from declaration of independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

According to his biography, he searched for most unbiased Quran when he was still studying in school. And he didn't call it a scripture, but book of law.

That said, he was a wolf in disguise of sheep like Benjamin Franklin and the rest. In public, he actually criticized Islam. And although that line says "all men are created equal" he didn't live by it. Neither did his pals. American citizenship back then was available to only rich white men who owned lands. The rest went to hell! Also his team didnt like the idea of allowing public to make choice.

The funny thing is that separation of church and state is an illusion. But I guess that's how satan works. Just behave innocent while going around destroying humanity. Yet I would say that its better when priests (of religions) are kept away from national politics!

Mikebloke

In order to understand what "secular soceity" is you need to study origin of that word/system.

Word "Secular" comes from Latin word "Seclorum" which means "to go apart, withdraw, separate"

This is explanation of Secular system One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.

Secular in 3. words means "No Creator Allowed" and since Quran is word of Creator, its more than obvious.

This is not what secular in the last line I've quoted means. I live in the UK, which is not a secular state, the official religion is the Church of England, which is a protestant division of Christianity. The head of state, the Monarch, is the representative of God for the Church of England. The Church of England receives more recognition, support, and representation on national matters. However secularism means even an infidel like me who is not an adherent to any Christian Church, let alone the Church of England or any other Protestant division, is allowed to practice my own religion pretty much if not entirely freely. Secularism guarentees this right, as it does any citizen to alternatively to believe in the official state church or even no religion at all. The UK is in no way "no creator allowed" as a monotheistic religion is the state religion.

You can have a non-secular state practice secularism, though a secular state is more likely to discriminate against theistic beliefs and practices (ie Turkey, though this is slowly unwinding with time).

drfazl

So you wanna say that system that is NOT based according to Quran is better than a system that is made according to Quran? In a secular system Quran is forbidden, you know. Things that you have posted has nothing to do with secularism.

Quran is the Prime Guidance if one wants to lead a life full of freedom from all oppressive population around him and the guidance for him who believes in Only God for anything and everything; and the guidance to who wants to be on top of all walks of life in the skies and in the earth 68/52 by the leave of Allah; on the other hand the man invented secular system is for the have-nots of Quran and who rejects the Guidance from the Almighty, who can believe only in collectively gathered living, one seeking the help of another, thus one burdening the other. Secularism cannot bring harmony between two individuals until each one becomes a free individual, living by the grace of One God. It is impossible to become a free individual in secularism for they have to neglect, reject and throw away the Quran.

Farabi

If Im not mistaken secularism is about separating religions with government. For this particular case, western country, the reason they did it is acceptable, because they get sick of the kingdom government who stand not on justice. This kind of religion and government relationship in islam is not known. The quran, remember, the quran, never had any clash with the style of government nor the citizen.

If we see from the basic principle of secularism which is separating religion with government, we will had a clash with the quran, not because the government must be a muslims, but because we need to remember God on everything we did. But the law of the secularism, which is, protection for anyone to choose their religions is supported by the quran. Not just that, if we saw most of the law written on the secularism country, you will not find clash between the quran and the secularism. But saying secularism is the quran way of governing is not true.

I think, there is some point secularism fit the quran and there is some point secularism not fit the quran. But basically, the quran doesnot force people to follow the quran. And if anyone asked, what should we do if we live in the place where the government is a tyrant? The quran said, obey ulil-amri, which is your government among you, but, if they hurt you, dont just stand by, if you cannot defend your self, just run, the earth is big enough for us all.

Sonny

Quran is the Prime Guidance if one wants to lead a life full of freedom from all oppressive population around him and the guidance for him who believes in Only God for anything and everything; and the guidance to who wants to be on top of all walks of life in the skies and in the earth 68/52 by the leave of Allah; on the other hand the man invented secular system is for the have-nots of Quran and who rejects the Guidance from the Almighty, who can believe only in collectively gathered living, one seeking the help of another, thus one burdening the other. Secularism cannot bring harmony between two individuals until each one becomes a free individual, living by the grace of One God. It is impossible to become a free individual in secularism for they have to neglect, reject and throw away the Quran.

I do agree with you that my goverment have no right to tell me what to believe but this does not mean that I can do whatever I want. Take west as an example, since church lost its power moral values of the people have been completly destroyed. I do not support church in any way but at least they were able to keep people, more or less on the right path. In the US, church even manage to ban alcohol in 1920's - 1933 which was great win for christianity in US in my opinion. But, since ww2 everything went down when Scofield Bible was introduced to americans.
As Quran says, we should keep everything in balance, not to go too far in religion like saudis do or to far in secularism as West does.
State laws that works without moral values of religion are doomed to fail.

Sonny

Thanks for bringing it up Sony. I have a strong feeling that Thomas Jefferson extracted lots of stuffs from Quran for US. Here is a piece from declaration of independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

According to his biography, he searched for most unbiased Quran when he was still studying in school. And he didn't call it a scripture, but book of law.

That said, he was a wolf in disguise of sheep like Benjamin Franklin and the rest. In public, he actually criticized Islam. And although that line says "all men are created equal" he didn't live by it. Neither did his pals. American citizenship back then was available to only rich white men who owned lands. The rest went to hell! Also his team didnt like the idea of allowing public to make choice.

The funny thing is that separation of church and state is an illusion. But I guess that's how satan works. Just behave innocent while going around destroying humanity. Yet I would say that its better when priests (of religions) are kept away from national politics!

Well, I heard that Thomas Jefferson was holding Bible in one and Quran in other hand and as him, I also believe that Quran is not "scripture" but "Book of Laws" or, "Law of the Nature". I still do not know much about Thomas Jefferson and his life since I'm not an american and I have no special opinion about him, not yet.

As I said in my last post, I think state laws that works without moral values of religion are doomed to fail. In your country, US, christianity was destroyed by Scofield Bible which later created foundations for terrorist state of Israel. This version of Christianity should be banned, same as wahhabism should be banned in islamic countries. Without balance you have domino effect, combination of secularism and religion is best option, than you have both sides happy. The biggest problems with us humans is that we go to far with everything, including religion and atheism.

I will finish with ayat form the Quran and Hopi chief Dan Evehemma quote

Quran 5725
We have already sent Our messengers with clear evidences and sent down with them the Scripture and the balance that the people may maintain in justice. And We sent down iron, wherein is great military might and benefits for the people, and so that Allah may make evident those who support Him and His messengers unseen. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

Dan Evehema, Hopi chief
We are now faced with great problems, not only here but throughout the land. Ancient cultures are being annihilated. Our people's lands are being taken from them, leaving them no place to call their own. Why is this happening? It is happening because many have given up or manipulated their original spiritual teachings. The Way of Life which the Great Spirit has given to all its people of the world; whatever your original instructions; is not being honoured. It is because of this great sickness - called greed, which infects every land and country that simple people are losing what they have kept for thousands of years.

drfazl

As Quran says, we should keep everything in balance, not to go too far in religion like saudis do or to far in secularism as West does. State laws that works without moral values of religion are doomed to fail.

My salams to you for your upright views.

Man_of_Faith

A society should have a law system that is based on the decree of "God", but if it has laws that are unfounded and invented then it is a conjectural law system which is a big fail. Most developed secular countries even if saying they are faithless actually have a jurisdiction which is aligned with the law of "God", and usually more so than the so-called "Islamic countries" who have a system called "sharia".

That is a foundation which includes everyone, but apart from those fleshly and superfiscal laws there are spiritual ways and one should abstain from the flesh, which comment would make Dr. Fazlur Rahman happy.

Only people who cannot think beyond the world are obsessed with "Quranic" laws and how to uphold them while the person who has attained the perception of 'mumin' thinks on how to get rid of the world in themselves, so to say; to "delete" their ego and get one with the Creator instead to enter that narrow gate of the realm (which exists even now and you can join it by being assimilated with Allah and exist in Allah, but you must be light enough to be able to enter the gate), and then you cannot exist as person/ego and must get rid of personal desires and merely live in Allah and you will have the benefits of Allah of not needing or wanting anything but have access to it anyway.

Beneath all lies about the prophets, this is what they taught, and in their distorted condition I say the Biblical Gospel best teaches it, although Quran is just as good when "refining" that nonsense derived from it such as fleshly rituals that only reinforce the fleshly perception.

Be faithful to the Rabb