Meaning of Kitabun in Chapter 41:3
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In my studies of the Quran I have run into a dead end and I would appreciate your help please to solve this "riddle" In Chapter 413 the Quran refers to itself as a "kitabun," usually translated as "Book" and a view words later as "Quranan" which is usually translated as Quran. How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book? The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean? It certainly can not already mean Scripture because that is the same as Book or Scroll? Help anyone please.
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I know you might not care what I have to say, but ketab does not mean book...
Salaam
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In my studies of the Quran I have run into a dead end and I would appreciate your help please to solve this "riddle" In Chapter 413 the Quran refers to itself as a "kitabun," usually translated as "Book" and a view words later as "Quranan" which is usually translated as Quran. How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book? The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean? It certainly can not already mean Scripture because that is the same as Book or Scroll? Help anyone please. )
A book has a title.
Experts and educationists suggest that the first rule in critical reading is that you must know what kind of a book is in your hand; and they say that we should know this as early in the process as possible, preferably before we begin to read. Many readers ignore titles and prefaces because perhaps they do not think it important to classify the book they are about to read. However, the author of a book facilitates its reader to know the kind of book he is being given by assigning it a title. Obviously, a descriptive and illustrative title will be considered the best for a reader to facilitate him immediately classify the book in hand.1.. Importance of the title of a book Perception and meanings conveyed by the title Qur'aan
In Arabic, written one page, a letter is also "kitab".
- Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book
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I know you might not care what I have to say, but ketab does not mean book...
Salaam
Nooo! Man of Faith you are mistaken I am very much interested in what you have to say, no matter what it is. So please expand on what you said regarding "ketab does not mean book." That is exactly my problem if it does not mean book what do you say it means and why do you say so?
Please honor me with your comments.
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A book has a title.
Experts and educationists suggest that the first rule in critical reading is that you must know what kind of a book is in your hand; and they say that we should know this as early in the process as possible, preferably before we begin to read. Many readers ignore titles and prefaces because perhaps they do not think it important to classify the book they are about to read. However, the author of a book facilitates its reader to know the kind of book he is being given by assigning it a title. Obviously, a descriptive and illustrative title will be considered the best for a reader to facilitate him immediately classify the book in hand.1.. Importance of the title of a book Perception and meanings conveyed by the title Qur'aan
In Arabic, written one page, a letter is also "kitab".
- Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book
Mazhar, thank you but I do not quite get the solution I need from your material.
You see, in my language, which is Afrikaans, the English term "Book" means a bound book with pages. So for me to be able to translate Kitabun into my language, I can not use the word Book or "Boek" as in Afrikaans, because it would mean that the Verses in the Quran which were not collected and bound together bfore Mohammeds death, already before being bound referred to itsels as a "Book" which I am sure is impossible. Or was the Verses of the Quran/Recitation not revealed over a period of 23 years?
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Salamun Alaikum.
Why is it so difficult to imagine that the author of Qur'an knew that the verses communicated will end up being recorded into a book?
Anyways, the books as we see them today - with their bindings and cover pages etc. did not exist in the 6th century. The Arabic word "kitab" refers to any information in written / recorded form. As brother Mazhar pointed out even a letter can be considered a kitab.
Compared to that the English word book is equally versatile. We know about digital books which do not have paper pages or covers. We also say, police booked the incident or I'll book a flight. Thus, "Book" in its broadest sense is also any information in recorded form.
So, I personally do not mind "book" as a translation of "kitab?. An alternate translation of a ?decree? or a ?prescription? can be considered ? but these English words have their own associated meanings which deviate further apart from the idea of ?kitab?. As a translation ?book? is fine -however, we should be careful not to be restricted to the narrow construct of a book with paper pages and hard cover etc. If we take it in the broadest sense (as any form of recorded information) then 413 does not offer much challenge. Rather it offers a strong suggestion that the verses of Qur?an had been written down concurrently as they were being revealed.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Mazhar, thank you but I do not quite get the solution I need from your material.
You see, in my language, which is Afrikaans, the English term "Book" means a bound book with pages. So for me to be able to translate Kitabun into my language, I can not use the word Book or "Boek" as in Afrikaans, because it would mean that the Verses in the Quran which were not collected and bound together bfore Mohammeds death, already before being bound referred to itsels as a "Book" which I am sure is impossible. Or was the Verses of the Quran/Recitation not revealed over a period of 23 years?
Please if you read what is meant by the Root it will exactly convey you what is meant by book in Afrikaans.
Ayahs constitute the miscellany of the book. Revelation was continuing over a period of time. It is why it is said These are the Ayahs of the Book. The Book already existed; its rendition was in Arabic. Whatever part was revealed over a period; it was organized and written. At a given point in time; that much written part in circulation was the book.
Please go through some pages of the link, you might find it is no different than the concept of book in your language.
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Harmony with you Saad,
Okay. Well, it is quite complicated because my stance is quite controversial. To me; refers to the substance of a book at best, like information.
In my further controversial arguments, I regard Arabic to consist of submeanings on morpheme level aka innate letter meaning. In this regard and after the current insight I have of the three letters forming the trilateral ketab it should literally be interpreted Cause Character With" which as a word would indicate "to inform somone" and as object noun (ب, i.e. the result of , simply "information", and as doer of is something. It could be used in relevance to a scribe, but the word does not mean that.
If you have a about something then you simply have the information about something. For example ahl alkitab suggests people who are adherents to the information which is with them. But it does not refer to a physical book but more of the knowledge of information.
Have faith
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In my studies of the Quran I have run into a dead end and I would appreciate your help please to solve this "riddle" In Chapter 413 the Quran refers to itself as a "kitabun," usually translated as "Book" and a view words later as "Quranan" which is usually translated as Quran. How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book? The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean? It certainly can not already mean Scripture because that is the same as Book or Scroll? Help anyone please. )
Salam and Peace,
How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book?
what is underlined is only conjecture, no where in the Great Reading you find such assertion/statement!
The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean?
The word Quran root Qaf-Ra-hamza, means reading, Quran means Great Reading, or endless Reading.
While Kitabun, is based on root Kaf-Ta-ba, to write, thus kitabun, something written, this imply The Quran was already written in prophete's time, many verses attest this.
Yes kitabun can mean scripture, ahlu alkitab means people of the scriptures, like christians, jewish, and so called muslims.
There was also a thread here that explain Kitab means more widely all Holy Books, because all holy books are in definitive one message, the same for everyone.
Peace
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Harmony with you Saad,
Okay. Well, it is quite complicated because my stance is quite controversial. To me; refers to the substance of a book at best, like information.
In my further controversial arguments, I regard Arabic to consist of submeanings on morpheme level aka innate letter meaning. In this regard and after the current insight I have of the three letters forming the trilateral ketab it should literally be interpreted Cause Character With" which as a word would indicate "to inform somone" and as object noun (ب, i.e. the result of , simply "information", and as doer of is something. It could be used in relevance to a scribe, but the word does not mean that.
If you have a about something then you simply have the information about something. For example ahl alkitab suggests people who are adherents to the information which is with them. But it does not refer to a physical book but more of the knowledge of information.
Have faith
Thank you Man of Faith, your explanation is the simplest and makes the most sense to me. But how would you then now translate Chapter 143? Please help me with this.
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Harmony be with you,
Thank you Man of Faith, your explanation is the simplest and makes the most sense to me. But how would you then now translate Chapter 143? Please help me with this.
You are welcome. People generally have problems accepting what I am "preaching" on this forum since it is regarded as highly controversial. Basically it is like if I propagated a different faith. It has been called wishful thinking, and my own whims and desires and God knows what. If you ask me I am simply unbiased, applying rational logic, challenging clearly paganistic ideology particularly which would be against the 'Commandments of Moses' regarding no image of anything in Heaven or Earth to represent God (I think of Kabah, Mecca), learning the language from the language itself and open that anything can be wrong traditionally, and it has proven to be so too.
Okay. I will try to to make an attempt at full translation of 413 (which you meant right?), but I will also attempt translation of surrounding passages because more often than not when I begin translation a whole context happen to be faulty in interpretation.
411 Good Thereof...
412 ...Presentation of benevolence, forgiveness
413 ...information/knowledge to perceive the facts recited in Arabic to those who intend to understand.
414 Be an informer and a preacher, present them an example. Those of them that are witted...
415 ...and say "Our conscience calls us from adopting it and openly accepting it, and between us and between you there is a difference for us to work out."Note that I translate ketab as knowledge as alternative, this is because I consider 'aelem' to have more emphasis on understanding rather than knowledge, and an alternative is knowledge. Besides 'information' is a relatively modern word. For example check here (Monotheist Translation 2013 with corrections in bold)
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite convey to them Your revelations and teach them the Book Knowledge and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite convey Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book Knowledge and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
Hope something was of help, dear Saad Bekker.
Note in my 414 I apply my controversial realization that la does not mean 'not' but 'that/to be'. The people the preacher encounters in 414-5 are interested in the preacher, but their conscience is unclear because the prophet's words are controversial. As controversial as my words to you now. The prophet speaks along the lines of what Jesus said about assimilation with Allah and people are generally not particularly open or understanding regarding this. Compared to the traditional interpretation these people are open to listen to reason, but would not outright accept. We must remember that most people are fed with disinformation about the realm.
Have faith
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Knoweldge is acquired
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By observation;
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From a book.
Encyclopedia Britannica describes a book
"A book may be defined, therefore, as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence. Books have attended the preservation and dissemination of knowledge in every literate society."
When a person-a teacher teaches the book, it means it is not his knowledge. He is only relaying it.
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Mazhar, please observe that ketab nevertheless relates to the knowledge acquired from an unspecified source. It is not a book.
You can get ketab from a book, but the book itself is not a ketaab.
Have faith
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Mazhar, please observe that ketab nevertheless relates to the knowledge acquired from an unspecified source. It is not a book.
You can get ketab from a book, but the book itself is not a ketaab.
Have faith
You can get ketab/knowledge from a book, but the book itself is not a ketaab/knowledge.
Deducting knowledge/kitab; a book is a collection of papers, gum and stiching material; according to you definition.
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The speaker knows its going to be used as a reference so expects it to be preserved for future use.
It need not be a physical book or written down but can also be which is kept in some people's mind and taken as reference. Age old proverbs/Songs too comes into this category, those that use rhyming words so people easily remember those sayings. -
You twist my words Mazhar and attempt at sarcasm. I was saying that 'ketab' is the knowledge you get from a book or any other source which relays it to you. Even a person or Allah can give you ketab if information is relayed to you.
This does not mean it is the book itself but the data in it.
A book by definition must be a written work. At least by common dictionaries. But ketab in Quran refers to any kind of information, written or not which is stored as knowledge in a brain or on paper. It is thereby an abstract word and not a concrete object, even if it can be recorded using words on paper. It does not need exact words but it can be written using any words as long as it is true to the original source and represents it accurately.
Like a source with ketab would say "Quran is a well of wisdom" and another says "There is a lot of wisdom in Quran". Both texts convey basically the same, but using different wordings. This kind of abstract knowledge is also what ketaab refers to.
Do you understand now?
Have faith
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Harmony be with you,
You are welcome. People generally have problems accepting what I am "preaching" on this forum since it is regarded as highly controversial. Basically it is like if I propagated a different faith. It has been called wishful thinking, and my own whims and desires and God knows what. If you ask me I am simply unbiased, ...
Thank you Man of Faith I think it is because I am unbiased as well, that your solution to my problem seems to fall exactly into place like a puzzle...
Please be so kind and also translate and explain Chapter 22 "dhlika l-kitbu" which seems to mean "That Book..." but is usually translated as "This Book..."
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Knoweldge is acquired
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By observation;
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From a book.
Encyclopedia Britannica describes a book
"A book may be defined, therefore, as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence. Books have attended the preservation and dissemination of knowledge in every literate society."
When a person-a teacher teaches the book, it means it is not his knowledge. He is only relaying it.
Mazhar,
But, from where I stand, as ex Christian, neither Jesus nor Mohammed had a Book from which to teach because
- Then we would still have had Jesus' Book and not differing Gospels all trying to portray what Jesus most probably said.
- We would have had Mohammed's Book from which he taught and we would not have had to struggle understanding the Quran and most of all we would not have had all these differing English translations...
Do'nt you think...?
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