Meaning of Kitabun in Chapter 41:3
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In my studies of the Quran I have run into a dead end and I would appreciate your help please to solve this "riddle" In Chapter 413 the Quran refers to itself as a "kitabun," usually translated as "Book" and a view words later as "Quranan" which is usually translated as Quran. How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book? The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean? It certainly can not already mean Scripture because that is the same as Book or Scroll? Help anyone please. )
Salam and Peace,
How can the Quran refer to itself as a Book whilst at the revelation of any of it's Verses, during the 23 years of revelation, of which this is one, it was not yet a Book?
what is underlined is only conjecture, no where in the Great Reading you find such assertion/statement!
The word Quran I know actually means "Recited Verses" but what does the "Kitabun" mean?
The word Quran root Qaf-Ra-hamza, means reading, Quran means Great Reading, or endless Reading.
While Kitabun, is based on root Kaf-Ta-ba, to write, thus kitabun, something written, this imply The Quran was already written in prophete's time, many verses attest this.
Yes kitabun can mean scripture, ahlu alkitab means people of the scriptures, like christians, jewish, and so called muslims.
There was also a thread here that explain Kitab means more widely all Holy Books, because all holy books are in definitive one message, the same for everyone.
Peace
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Harmony with you Saad,
Okay. Well, it is quite complicated because my stance is quite controversial. To me; refers to the substance of a book at best, like information.
In my further controversial arguments, I regard Arabic to consist of submeanings on morpheme level aka innate letter meaning. In this regard and after the current insight I have of the three letters forming the trilateral ketab it should literally be interpreted Cause Character With" which as a word would indicate "to inform somone" and as object noun (ب, i.e. the result of , simply "information", and as doer of is something. It could be used in relevance to a scribe, but the word does not mean that.
If you have a about something then you simply have the information about something. For example ahl alkitab suggests people who are adherents to the information which is with them. But it does not refer to a physical book but more of the knowledge of information.
Have faith
Thank you Man of Faith, your explanation is the simplest and makes the most sense to me. But how would you then now translate Chapter 143? Please help me with this.
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Harmony be with you,
Thank you Man of Faith, your explanation is the simplest and makes the most sense to me. But how would you then now translate Chapter 143? Please help me with this.
You are welcome. People generally have problems accepting what I am "preaching" on this forum since it is regarded as highly controversial. Basically it is like if I propagated a different faith. It has been called wishful thinking, and my own whims and desires and God knows what. If you ask me I am simply unbiased, applying rational logic, challenging clearly paganistic ideology particularly which would be against the 'Commandments of Moses' regarding no image of anything in Heaven or Earth to represent God (I think of Kabah, Mecca), learning the language from the language itself and open that anything can be wrong traditionally, and it has proven to be so too.
Okay. I will try to to make an attempt at full translation of 413 (which you meant right?), but I will also attempt translation of surrounding passages because more often than not when I begin translation a whole context happen to be faulty in interpretation.
411 Good Thereof...
412 ...Presentation of benevolence, forgiveness
413 ...information/knowledge to perceive the facts recited in Arabic to those who intend to understand.
414 Be an informer and a preacher, present them an example. Those of them that are witted...
415 ...and say "Our conscience calls us from adopting it and openly accepting it, and between us and between you there is a difference for us to work out."Note that I translate ketab as knowledge as alternative, this is because I consider 'aelem' to have more emphasis on understanding rather than knowledge, and an alternative is knowledge. Besides 'information' is a relatively modern word. For example check here (Monotheist Translation 2013 with corrections in bold)
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite convey to them Your revelations and teach them the Book Knowledge and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite convey Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book Knowledge and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
Hope something was of help, dear Saad Bekker.
Note in my 414 I apply my controversial realization that la does not mean 'not' but 'that/to be'. The people the preacher encounters in 414-5 are interested in the preacher, but their conscience is unclear because the prophet's words are controversial. As controversial as my words to you now. The prophet speaks along the lines of what Jesus said about assimilation with Allah and people are generally not particularly open or understanding regarding this. Compared to the traditional interpretation these people are open to listen to reason, but would not outright accept. We must remember that most people are fed with disinformation about the realm.
Have faith
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Knoweldge is acquired
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By observation;
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From a book.
Encyclopedia Britannica describes a book
"A book may be defined, therefore, as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence. Books have attended the preservation and dissemination of knowledge in every literate society."
When a person-a teacher teaches the book, it means it is not his knowledge. He is only relaying it.
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Mazhar, please observe that ketab nevertheless relates to the knowledge acquired from an unspecified source. It is not a book.
You can get ketab from a book, but the book itself is not a ketaab.
Have faith
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Mazhar, please observe that ketab nevertheless relates to the knowledge acquired from an unspecified source. It is not a book.
You can get ketab from a book, but the book itself is not a ketaab.
Have faith
You can get ketab/knowledge from a book, but the book itself is not a ketaab/knowledge.
Deducting knowledge/kitab; a book is a collection of papers, gum and stiching material; according to you definition.
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The speaker knows its going to be used as a reference so expects it to be preserved for future use.
It need not be a physical book or written down but can also be which is kept in some people's mind and taken as reference. Age old proverbs/Songs too comes into this category, those that use rhyming words so people easily remember those sayings. -
You twist my words Mazhar and attempt at sarcasm. I was saying that 'ketab' is the knowledge you get from a book or any other source which relays it to you. Even a person or Allah can give you ketab if information is relayed to you.
This does not mean it is the book itself but the data in it.
A book by definition must be a written work. At least by common dictionaries. But ketab in Quran refers to any kind of information, written or not which is stored as knowledge in a brain or on paper. It is thereby an abstract word and not a concrete object, even if it can be recorded using words on paper. It does not need exact words but it can be written using any words as long as it is true to the original source and represents it accurately.
Like a source with ketab would say "Quran is a well of wisdom" and another says "There is a lot of wisdom in Quran". Both texts convey basically the same, but using different wordings. This kind of abstract knowledge is also what ketaab refers to.
Do you understand now?
Have faith
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Harmony be with you,
You are welcome. People generally have problems accepting what I am "preaching" on this forum since it is regarded as highly controversial. Basically it is like if I propagated a different faith. It has been called wishful thinking, and my own whims and desires and God knows what. If you ask me I am simply unbiased, ...
Thank you Man of Faith I think it is because I am unbiased as well, that your solution to my problem seems to fall exactly into place like a puzzle...
Please be so kind and also translate and explain Chapter 22 "dhlika l-kitbu" which seems to mean "That Book..." but is usually translated as "This Book..."
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Knoweldge is acquired
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By observation;
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From a book.
Encyclopedia Britannica describes a book
"A book may be defined, therefore, as a written (or printed) message of considerable length, meant for public circulation and recorded on materials that are light yet durable enough to afford comparatively easy portability. Its primary purpose is to announce, expound, preserve, and transmit knowledge and information between people, depending on the twin faculties of portability and permanence. Books have attended the preservation and dissemination of knowledge in every literate society."
When a person-a teacher teaches the book, it means it is not his knowledge. He is only relaying it.
Mazhar,
But, from where I stand, as ex Christian, neither Jesus nor Mohammed had a Book from which to teach because
- Then we would still have had Jesus' Book and not differing Gospels all trying to portray what Jesus most probably said.
- We would have had Mohammed's Book from which he taught and we would not have had to struggle understanding the Quran and most of all we would not have had all these differing English translations...
Do'nt you think...?
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What is the need to play with words which are already semantifically well defined and explicitly understood.
May I say the same to you. Why do you play with words that are distorted instead of seeing them for what they really mean, just blindly following like people have done for over one thousand years.
as book is just pathetic in Qur'an. Cannot you see this yourself?
Book and knowledge are two "concepts". They are related, but are not interchangeable. Qur'aan is introduced as the book.
Wrong. Qur'an is introduced as knowledge. The Qur'an word means book in descriptive means. A recitation can be recorded either on paper or abstractly as memorization. Allah chooses to use as abstract terminology as possible in Qur'an just for the square-minded humans should not succumb to physical relationship to things.
A book is the entity as to which the knowledge is attached in written form. A book contains the exact wordings and cannot be changed without altering the original text. Knowledge/information is not concrete but can be paraphrased and explained in a variety of ways, with many different ways of elaboration towards it.
You have an example here
2740 And one who had knowledge from the Book had a knowledgeable understanding said ?I will bring it to you before you blink.? So when he saw it resting before him, he said ?This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful.?
What kind of book do you think will help this person here? The person is rather understanding of knowledge or simply being a knowledgeable/insightful person. Qur'an was not revealed at the time of Solomon, so what kind of book do you expect that helped the person here. The answer is that 'al-ketaab' is referring to the understanding of this person who replied who has knowledge/insight. Although the literal interpretation should be "understanding from knowledge". I.e. the person was wise and knowledgeable.
Al-Ketaab is just an innocent word being hijacked in this scripture to be almost revered and has a general meaning.
244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book conveying knowledge? Do you not comprehend?
Conveying knowledge ( َ is simply teaching by other words in English. Even ought to take an objective form since you have the objectifier in it, i.e. conveyors of knowledge.
285 But then here you are killing exhorting each other and expelling a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was unlawful for you to expel them! Do you believe acknowledge part of the Book knowledge and disbelieve in fabricate/produce a (another) part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.
289 And when a Book knowledge came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected fabricated; so when what they knew came to them, they fabricated with it! The curse of God be upon the rejecters fabricators.
2105 Neither do those who have rejected fabricated from among the people of the Book knowledge scholars, nor from among the polytheists sectarians, wish that any good comes down to you from your Lord. But God chooses with His mercy whom He wishes; and from God is the greatest grace.
Ahl Al-kitab ( ِ sounds like someone who is a scholar by the way. "People of the book" is just a lame excuse of interpretation and translation anyway, but I suppose you cannot see this through the taint of pride.
2109 Many of the people of the Book scholars have wished that they could return you to being rejecters fabrications after your believing affinity, out of envy from their souls after the truth was made clear to them. You shall forgive them and overlook until God brings His will. God is capable of all things.
2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both teachers of the knowledge to you! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.
2120 Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say ?The guidance is the guidance of God.? And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against God.
2121 Those to whom We gave the Book who follow our knowledge to them, they recite convey it as it truthfully deserves to be recited conveyed; they believe in have affinity with it. As for those who disbelieve in fabricate with it, they are the losers.Notice that 2121 is directly related to 2120. 2121 lacks the linguistic pretext to say TO WHOM.
2129 ?Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite convey to them Your revelations and teach them the Book knowledge and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise.?
2144 We see the shifting of your face towards the heaven; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple Commandments/Guidelines; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Book follow knowledge know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
2146 Those to whom We made follow knowledge know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite convey Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book knowledge and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
Etc, etc... the scripture continues...
And the translation is Monotheist Translation with modifications to correct some errors. It still contains myriad errors.
Have faith
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My two cents on the matter.
Let's consider the time in which Quran was revealed. There were no printed books in the region. People did write but the concept of book was most likely not similar as we know it today. A carving on stone, on leather, in sand, a recitation would most likely all be interpreted as book if they consisted of an elaborate, coherent work - referred to with a title.
This does not negate the Quran today is available as a printed book in Arabic that still contains the original recitation. None of the other scriptures can make the same claim. Neither the jewish or christian scriptures have been preserved in this sense. If you would read them today they would be nothing like the original recitations from those prophets.
Therefor the whole debate wether Kitabun means book or not is highly irrelevant. Quran is still authentic and corresponding with original recitations.
I use the word recitation deliberately. Even when Quran was not revealed entirely, prophet Muhammad was reciting Gods Quran.
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Harmony be with you Saad,
Please be so kind and also translate and explain Chapter 22 "dhlika l-kitbu" which seems to mean "That Book..." but is usually translated as "This Book..."
Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.
21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.
Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.
Have faith
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You have an example here
2740 And one who had knowledge from the Book had a knowledgeable understanding said ?I will bring it to you before you blink.? So when he saw it resting before him, he said ?This is from the grace of my Lord, so that He tests me whether I am thankful or whether I reject. As for he who is thankful, he is thankful for himself, and as for he who rejects, then my Lord is Rich, Bountiful.?
What kind of book do you think will help this person here? The person is rather understanding of knowledge or simply being a knowledgeable/insightful person. Qur'an was not revealed at the time of Solomon, so what kind of book do you expect that helped the person here. The answer is that 'al-ketaab' is referring to the understanding of this person who replied who has knowledge/insight. Although the literal interpretation should be "understanding from knowledge". I.e. the person was wise and knowledgeable.
Al-Ketaab is just an innocent word being hijacked in this scripture to be almost revered and has a general meaning.
What is knowledge?
How is it obtained/what are its sources?
What is understanding? How is it attained/what are its sources?
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Harmony be with you Saad,
Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.
21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.
Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.
Have faith
Please explain to me how understanding requires me to believe it?
285 afatu'minna bibai l-kitbi
If I understand something it doesn't require belief. Therefor the interpretation of MoF does not withstand scrutiny.
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If I understand something it doesn't require belief. Therefor the interpretation of MoF does not withstand scrutiny.
It is of course your choice whether you will accept it or not. It is easy to reject someone's suggestion without scrutiny.
285 afatu'minna bibai l-kitbi
...show affinity about the wholeness of knowledge...
(need to translate the whole passage to make my translation to make sense)
Please explain to me how understanding requires me to believe it?
There is no belief in God's realm, either acceptance/affinity or no acceptance/affinity. But I still do not know what you argue about there.
Amen means general acceptance and affinity. If you reply amen to something you basically say "seconded!".
So please do not laugh before you have jumped across the water.
Have faith
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What is knowledge?
How is it obtained/what are its sources?
What is understanding? How is it attained/what are its sources?
You can learn knowledge through your own empirical studies, reading a book, listening to a source e.g. a teacher or movie, thinking etc etc, but the factor which determines your ability to absorb and assimilate the knowledge is your own mind.
But a book is not synonymous with knowledge. A book does not need to convey knowledge at all, but can spread disinformation, so you in return have false knowledge that is not true. Even a book which is correct and does not spread disinformation can cause you to not absorb any knowledge at all if your mind is not able to comprehend it.
Knowledge is abstract and you can use many different words to convey the same knowledge, while a book is typically compiled in a certain way.
This reasoning can be understood if you study the occurrences of ketab in Qur'an as well.
Have faith
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It is of course your choice whether you will accept it or not. It is easy to reject someone's suggestion without scrutiny.
...show affinity about the wholeness of knowledge...
(need to translate the whole passage to make my translation to make sense)
There is no belief in God's realm, either acceptance/affinity or no acceptance/affinity. But I still do not know what you argue about there.
Amen means general acceptance and affinity. If you reply amen to something you basically say "seconded!".
So please do not laugh before you have jumped across the water.
Have faith
Well then explain to me how it is required to have affinity with your own understanding? This seems like total nonsense to me. My own understanding is intrinsically an affinity of mine. It's my understanding you see. Not someone else's. If you are talking about having affinity with someone else's understanding, then we are talking about belief, no matter how much you want to play with semantics.
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@MoF
I have a feeling you are trying to replace the entire message of Quran with the Greek philosophical idea of Sophia. Certainly philosophy has it's merits but there is not one philosopher in history that hasn't been proven wrong or busted on self-contradiction.
To me it's ironic. Sunnism as we know it today started out as a reaction towards the work of the Mu'tazila. The intermingling of greek philosophy with Quranic understanding by the Mu'tazila provoked such a huge reaction it gave rise to proto-sunnism and later sunnism as we know it today.
History repeating itself.