Shouldn't we BE LIKE GOD?

Natu

Peace.

To reinitiate my arguement on this issue, I would like to restate something I said earleir in this thread

The fact is that we have been given all the guidance we need in the Quran. He tells us not to lie, to feed the poor etc. He has not told us to take up his own attributes. Anyway, if we do decide that we want to be like God, then how do we take up the attribute of 'all mighty' etc.? Then it comes down to flawed human selection of the attributes to copy, and as we know pretty well, human innovations haven't always been top notch now have they.

From the last response by mquran, it appears that the subject of this whole thread has changed. Its boiled down to a matter of wording yet again. From my understanding, Mquran is suggesting that it would not be right to try and be like God, but it would be right to implant God's attributes into ourselves/our lives.

The point I am desperately trying to get across to all brothers and sisters is that this is very dangerous ground. I can see the readers of this arguement thinking that there are those with a free mind coming up with a new/undiscovered concept, and there is this 'traditionalist' 'closed minded' individual who doesn't like any deviation from the norm. I must make clear that this is not the case.

It appears to me that the general consensus now is that we do not need to be like God, but we can take up his attributes as described in the Quran. What I believe is that whatever anybody does, God will reward taking the intention into consideration.

Firstly, God does not tell us to take up his attributes, se we don't need to make this a teaching to follow. Plus, only a few of his attributes which are detailed in the Quran can be applyed to our own lifestyles, becuase we can't possibly be 'all-mighty' for example.

Secondly even if we do somehow manage to use our logic and decide on which attributes we can try and apply to our lifestyles, we must not do this with the intentin of trying to be like God (which I accept most of you would not do anyway), rather we should do this with the intention of doing what we are told to do by the God.

And finally, if we have come to the conclusion that we could apply some of Gods attributes into our own lifestyles, we must question whether this is necessary. If it is not, then there is no need to discuss this issue any further.

Now lets try and deduce whether we need to try and incorporate the God's attributes into our lives. Lets list a few facts first.

The God says that it has made the reading fully detailed, explained and complete.
Using common sense when interpreting the reading shows that we have enough duties to work on before we try to look for more. Take this for example. 'Do not conceal the truth'. It looks simple on the surface, but no matter how 'religious' we are, we all admit to lying daily.
The concept of picking one attribute such as 'merciful' and trying to perfect that attribute throughout ones life does not appeal to me personally, because it eventually would lead to disregard of other commandments such as giving to the poor, becuase more energy would be used up on trying to be merciful.

To conclude, I would say that we already have enough on our plates to do, beofre we try to look for more duties to do, which aren't directly or indeed indirectly prescribed. The Quran is fuly detailed and complete. 'Its verses have been perfected' (chapter 11). If he does not tell us about this concpet, which if it existed, would be fundamental to our deen, and that is why there is no such mention of taking up God's attributes in the reading at all.

To conclude, I would say that there is absolutely no need to complicate things for ourselves if our deen as approved of by the God is simple and easy to follow. Although this is an interesting attempt to put christian ideology into the light of the Quran, which would have created a bit more over over their views and ours, I'm afraid i don't approve of this in the least. Though I am always open to discuss this further, if there is still an issue to be discussed.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

Natu

Peace.

mz357 I must congratualte you on your efforts to promote your point of view, but I think we should try and go back to the Quran, not just single words in the Quran. NOWHERE in the quran does it say that we need to try/strive to be like God, or take up his attributes, or however you might want to word it.

With regards to the point when I said 'how do we take up the attribute of almighty?'.

I am very reluctant to make an argument against you on basis of wording my friend, but since you want to quote something I said earlier I thinks this is justified for me also, to fight out the same point.

you said 'now you tell us is there anything wrong in trying to have all powers at your disposal, where in which Quran does it say this?'

Now this thread is beginning to sound like an argument rather than a discussion, lets stick to the point instead of getting personal. If somebody thinks that they can try to be almighty, I'm afraid they may be suffering from a confidence problem. Seen as you have attacked my view through one word I used, lets dwell on that point for a bit.

Almighty = has access to all power.

I don't have a problem with this definition. But it appears to me that someone trying to have access to all power would not be anything less than a control freak, apart from God obviously, becuase he doesn't have to try, he has it all anyway. Now brother, could you tell me how exactly you could go about trying to have all power. What exactly would you do? Start body building and be the next Arnie schwarzenegger? Be the president of America?, Buy Microsoft and Virgin Enterprises?

You asked me what was wrong with trying to be almighty.

Theres nothing wrong with it; its just impossible my friend, both to try and to become, so there is no point in wasting energy in trying to achieve God's attributes, useful energy that could be used in doing things we are actually TOLD to do, like looking after orphans and honouring our parents.

Now leaving the 'almighty' case behind, lets have a look at another single word attribute of God given in the Quran. Hmm... lets try omniscient - posessor of all/infinite knowledge.

1239 - ?O my fellow inmates, are various lords better, or God, the One, the Omniscient?? (Progressive Muslims translation)

Now I don't know about anybody else but my brain isn't big enough to hold all knowledge, nor is my head big enough to think that I could try to have all knowledge of everything.

When he says that he is 'the omnisicient' or 'the merciful' he isn't just saying 'I am omniscient' or 'I am almighty'. The fact that he calls himself 'the merciful' makes it clear that this atribute is exclusive to him, and there is no way anyone can try to become that (and I'm not prepared to argue with him).

To me, its crystal clear that the attributes of God that we are told of are exclusive to him and as descriptions for him alone. Now my friend, we will turn to discuss where our logic differs. You seem to have the impression that I think you are trying to be like God. False, I know what you are trying to say, which is more or less the idea that if God is like this and that etc. which is a good thing, then we should strive to be like that, whether we can achieve it or not. But my logic is as follows;

God is unique, and it is beyond any doubt that we cannot be like him in any way whatsoever. Its just the way things are. And even if we work as hard as possible to be almighty/omnipotent etc. its just not posible to do anything like that. For example, how often would we humans get the chance to try and be merciful, besides deciding not to swat down the odd fly or mosquito or not firing an employee for turning up late too many times?
Next, considering the words of the Quran, NOWHERE, I repeat, NOWHERE, not does it say that we should try to be like God, (sorry, let me rephrase that) or try (rather, make feeble attempts) to incorporate God's qualities into our own lives. If this concept of being like God existed in the Quran, it would be such an important concept, and it would say this verse after verse. Unfortunately for you, it does not say this at all, in fact throught his book, God distinguishes himself from the whole of his creation by saying what his attributes are. Badum Tishhhh...
Now if you want to argue that we can choose some attributes and disregard others which can simply not be achieved, I think this selection process would not be based on anything other than subjective judgement, which I personally would not want to base my beliefs on. The Quran has been made easy and its verses have been perfected. I personally think there is no need to go looking for things that clearly aren't there in the Quran.

As far as the success of the Japs and the Westerners goes, much of the public of these countries can't really be bothered to engage in some kind of belief system, and they obviously do not believe the stuff they're supposed to believe. God has said himself that he will give the disbelievers happiness for a short while, for they are later to deserve a shameful retribution. By the way, it is interesting how you said the Japanase are successful. And what is even more interesting is that Japan has the worlds highest suicide rate even though its one of the most developed countries, which top psychologists around the world say is becuase of their lack of connection with any kind of religion or belief system. Anyway, who said that these people are trying to be God?, I've never heard this, fill me in if i'm missing out on something wink .

You said

"Its like having a good father but the son is all evil , so someone who knows them both might turn around and say ,why don't you be more like your father! "

This is a convincing argument. Not. Using the logic in this world, it is claer that a child can be like a parent if he/she tries, but not if it is physically impossible. Lets see... let me come up with a random example which actually makes more sense than yours... The father is an olympic runner, and the son is unfortunately born disabled and is wheelchair bound. Now nobody can say that the son has to be like the father, in fact, the son himself cannot say that he can be like the father. But what the son can do is obey the father and try to become a wheelchair athlete which would be a success and would bring great happiness, instead of trying his whole life to be an olympic runner, and having to accept failure when his life comes to an end. The son has to do what the father tells him to do, which is something he can do, his job is not to be like his father which is impossible. Now I can see your counterarguement to be a question as to why i made a physical difference between the father and the son. The reason is my friend, that in your example, the father is more or less an older version of the son, and in my example, the father is different to the son, and capable of doing more things.

What we are told to be like is what we are supposed to be like, and not to be like what we think we are supposed to be like . Comprende?

I apologise if I have been a bit crude in my part of the discussion, but I thought it was necessary for our own good. lol

Peace.
Natu on the line.

unknownuser

Salaams,

All the quot's are what you said

?Now brother, could you tell me how exactly you could go about trying to have all power. What exactly would you do? Start body building and be the next Arnie schwarzenegger? Be the president of America?, Buy Microsoft and Virgin Enterprises??

Br.you can do anything you like, to me the more power one has the more good he can do so as to better serve the human kind and the God.!

?Theres nothing wrong with it; its just impossible my friend, both to try and to become?

Yes there is nothing wrong but yes it is impossible except on a limited scale of a human being.

?TOLD to do, like looking after orphans and honouring our parents.?

Don?t you reckon you will do this better if you can better serve mankind ?by having greater power,instead of looking after one look after a lot more Br.

?posessor of all/infinite knowledge.?

You don?t necessarily need to have it in your brain but merely at your disposal so one may better serve mankind ,like the Americans or japs or the other advancing nations are doing ?look around wake up?.

?1239 - ?O my fellow inmates, are various lords better, or God, the One, the Omniscient?? (Progressive Muslims translation)?

What you mean man , we aren?t trying to re-word the quran but merely understand it and advance with Gods help.

?Now I don't know about anybody else but my brain isn't big enough to hold all knowledge, nor is my head big enough to think that I could try to have all knowledge of everything.?

Then there are other ways of having great deal of knowledge at your disposal ? a computer if you can?t use it ?then I sugest you learn to ,it may be help you your children and a lot of others.

?The fact that he calls himself 'the merciful' makes it clear that this atribute is exclusive to him, and there is no way anyone can try to become that (and I'm not prepared to argue with him).?

It is not exclusive to God alone , I believe even you can be merciful but obviously that is on the scale of you being a human and not God .

?To me, its crystal clear that the attributes of God that we are told of are exclusive to him and as descriptions for him alone. Now my friend, we will turn to discuss where our logic differs. You seem to have the impression that I think you are trying to be like God. False, I know what you are trying to say, which is more or less the idea that if God is like this and that etc. which is a good thing, then we should strive to be like that, whether we can achieve it or not. But my logic is as follows;?

If it is crystal clear to you sorry not to me , yet.And please point me to where you read the attributes are exclusive to God alone ? thanks.

?how often would we humans get the chance to try and be merciful, besides deciding not to swat down the odd fly or mosquito or not firing an employee for turning up late too many times??

You can try and be merciful,when you can , don?t you think God wants us to?

?Next, considering the words of the Quran, NOWHERE, I repeat, NOWHERE, not does it say that we should try to be like God, (sorry, let me rephrase that) or try (rather, make feeble attempts) to incorporate God's qualities into our own lives.?

I think the qualities are within us even you but may be you are considering them to be something else apples instead pears!

?Now if you want to argue that we can choose some attributes and disregard others which can simply not be achieved?

I am not saying disregard any but understand how one can apply these for the benefit of all.And do apply them rather then what is happening in in the muslim world ? i.e hand to mouth philosophy and nothing more.

?Anyway, who said that these people are trying to be God?, I've never heard this, fill me in if i'm missing out on something .?

I didn?t say or rather mean that but did say they are using the attributes of the God in everyting that being the reason they are so advancing.

?and the son is unfortunately born disabled and is wheelchair bound. Now nobody can say that the son has to be like the father,?

sorry he can try to have the good qualities of the father still even if he is disabled.
And no reason why he should give up and not try to be an athlete if its in him.

?I apologise if I have been a bit crude in my part of the discussion, but I thought it was necessary for our own good. ?

I think I know what is good for me , I stopped being a follower a little while back.Thanks.

God Bless All,and may Allah?s qualities be everywhere As they are no doubt.

I think you are misunderstanding the thread NO BODY IS GOD ,OR CAN BE but nothing wrong in enlivening the qualities within us ,as they are there already anyway .

Thanks and Bye.

Natu

Peace.

I was up to a point enjoying this, but now I think we're leaving the Quran itself behind. Lets me start with a simple statement that you can later feel free to quote .

"Just like the hadith holders decided that they wanted to take up Muhammad's attributes, without being told to in the Quran, basing it only on verses which said that he was a good example for us. This concept of looking for extra duties in the Quran beside those which God has clearly prescribed to complicate things is based on the same principle. Which is that of making unjust and unsupported inferences."

If we really want to come to common grounds by the end of this discussion, if it will ever end, we need verses from the Quran. I request that you search for and come up with a verse that states clearly that we should try/strive to achieve Gods attributes, as clear as the verses which tell us not to lie etc. If such a verse cannot be found, then find me one which you could use to infer this. And if you can't infer this from any verse, then we'll discuss the logic you are using. For now though, I'll focus on your commentary of what I have said previously.

When I asked how you could become almighty, you criticised me by saying

Br.you can do anything you like, to me the more power one has the more good he can do so as to better serve the human kind and the God.!

Please stop running round in circles - I didn't ask you what good deeds you could do with all the power you magically accumalte out of misinterpretation, I am asking you a simple straight forward question, what exactly is this power which you intend to gather together 'to better serve the human kind and the God'? So effectively what I am asking is if you do dcide to be almighty, how is anybody supposed to do that, other than life normally, and be a bit more concious your own 'powers' like having authority over other people. And if in an ideal world, if everybody started to try and be almighty, don't you think we would be running into a few problems? My friend, you are purposefully redifining 'almighty' to suit your own purposes.

With regards to being almighty you also said

Yes there is nothing wrong but yes it is impossible except on a limited scale of a human being.

On a limitied scale of a human being. Bingo! Now we're getting somwhere. Because we have this limited scale, which makes us different to the God, that is why God has commanded us to do things which are within the scope of our limited scale of capabilities. We don't need to go looking for things that just aren't within our capabilities. The limit to which you could be almighty or omniscient is clearly observed within the commandement we are given. The attributes of God, no matter how desireable they are, CANNOT be achieved, nor indeed can any kind of attempt be made to achieve them. So all we need to do is what the God tells us, and not somwething which looks nice to do, but is actually impossible.

Considering my comment of doing what we are told to do, you said

Don?t you reckon you will do this better if you can better serve mankind ?by having greater power,instead of looking after one look after a lot more Br.

Another u-turn in your logic. Being able to 'serve mankind' better as you put it, appears to be possible by some kind of supernatural attainment of 'power'. All you need to do, to serve be better at being kind to your parents is spend a bit more quality time with them, or tell them the odd joke or two, you do not need to be almighty to do this, nor does being almighty help anybody be more kind to their parents.

Talking about your assumption that you could have 'infinite knowledge', you said

You don?t necessarily need to have it in your brain but merely at your disposal so one may better serve mankind ,like the Americans or japs or the other advancing nations are doing ?look around wake up?.

Now if you've decided that you casn't possess infinite knowledge in your head, and you have decided to use books or computers or whatever, then is it still you as the posessor of infinite knowledge. God does not need to have access to infinite knowledge, he is the one who knows the infinite knowledge. Secondly, if you decide to go on your adventure of attaining infinite knowledge, how exactly are you going to even have access to this infinite knowledge. Now, your going to say that we can try to have as much knowledge as possible, to be like God. The point is everybody has a lot of knowledge, even plants have some kind of memory system, but the point is, none of them are trying to be God. You aquire and use knowlwedge when you need to, rather than being a control freak and trying to get your hands on all knowledge, if its possible anyway.

By the way, I would have thought that reading this stuff on your screen would make it clear to you that I do know how to use a computer, and I already have several qualifications in IT, and just becuase I know how to use computers doesn't mean I posess infinite knowledge, nor does it mean I could be more kind to my parents.

About being merciful you said

It is not exclusive to God alone, I believe even you can be merciful but obviously that is on the scale of you being a human and not God.

You think you can be merciful, then have mercy on me becuase I am tired of circular arguments! Being merciful as within our limits is prescribed by God, so we don't have to try and be merciful by trying to be like him. Simple.

You said

If it is crystal clear to you sorry not to me , yet.And please point me to where you read the attributes are exclusive to God alone ? thanks.

Thats the problem, you don't appear to see the Quran as crystal clear. When it says in the Quran, that he is 'the almighty', who else is he talking about. He is THE ONE that is almighty.

You said

You can try and be merciful,when you can , don?t you think God wants us to?

You can try to be merciful, you can have mercy within the human limits, through the commandments given to us, like forgiving people, and extending a loan period. But striving to achieve the unachievavble by being merciful like God is just something nobody would even need to consider.

You said

I think the qualities are within us even you but may be you are considering them to be something else apples instead pears!

Well it may just be so that I am considering apples as apples and pears as pears, and not telling the pear to act like an apple. The truth is that we do have internal systems which tell us what to do in each situation, and using this natural guidance in conjunction with the commands given to us by God is enough for success, we simply do not need to go looking for more. Perhaps you have missed the point that we have all the commands we need, we do not need to go looking for more. The point is, as I have said before. Nowhere, does it say that we need to take up God?s attributes.

You said

I am not saying disregard any but understand how one can apply these for the benefit of all.And do apply them rather then what is happening in in the muslim world ? i.e hand to mouth philosophy and nothing more.

But the fact is, as I have exposed earlier, its just out of the question to think that attributes of God, such as being almighty and omniscient as achievable by us, to any extent, because we can nevenr have access to all power, nor can we have access to all knowledge. And to think that we should strive a higher state than we are in is simply inline with the commandments given to us, and not an attempt to match up with God?s attributes.

You said

sorry he can try to have the good qualities of the father still even if he is disabled.
And no reason why he should give up and not try to be an athlete if its in him.

Answer this. Would the father ever tell his to be a Gold medallist in the 800m ?able bodied? race? NO. He wouldn?t because he knows that is not possible, that is why the father would encourage participation in the Paralympics instead. We are commanded to do what is within our capabilities, and nothing outside that.

I think I know what is good for me , I stopped being a follower a little while back.Thanks.

Perhaps you think I?m trying to be one of these mullah type characters. Please, the reason I am taking time out to discuss this issue rather than overlook it is because I am afraid that we muslims at free-minds may divide further than we already have, and personally I would hate that to happen over concepts which are obviously non-existent in the Quran. Perhaps our energies would be better used in trying to work out things like the correct method of ?salaat? etc. If it looks like I?m being adamant and close minded, I don?t mind, but I will not stop my counterargument, if God wills. Please forgive me if you think I?m being a bossy round he in this thread. Its just what you are saying which is making me respond like this. I never wanted to attack you on basis of wording, I don?t approve of that.

Enlivening our qualities within us does not involve trying to be like something else, but it involves doing what God has told us clearly, in trhe clear and simple reading.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

unknownuser

Salaams natu,
i managed to read your post but only slightly , i think it is most likely like before,saying that let us consider quistion of this topic from another angle,okay.

001.005
SHAKIR Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

How do you serve Allah?not worship serve?

We all believe he is the Truth,the provider,the giver,the one who subdues wrong and restores right,now should we serve Allah from the view that he is the one who subdues wrong and restores right for example?or not?if so how?

simerlarly the same quistion is aplicable to all other attributes.

Say your father - who is an accountant and a teacher and a helper to you and an adviser so forth depending on the role he is playing with you how would one serve him can he be served as a father in each of the typical cases of his attributes i.e do you serve him as a father or a teacher when he is teaching you for example at a school simerlarly the other attributes.

Salaams and God Bless.

Natu

Peace.

Now we?re going to get somewhere. Although I would have enjoyed your response more if you had spent more time reading my last post, I think we have done the right thing by going back to the Quran. First I would like to restructure the nature of this thread to one which we try and search for the truth from the Quran, rather than quoting and criticising each others words, I apologise for having done so myself in response to you. Lets start afresh.

15 - Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

When talking about how we serve God, up until root word analysis of the Quran, we would have understood serving God as default to be worshipping him, but it is clear that no single word in the Quran can be translated as worship (but this is a separate issue which is being discussed in other parts of the forum, so it is best if we don't go off on a tangent). Initially, when I decided to reject hadith books, I found that details of ritual prayer were what I had to find out. But what I subsequently realised, was that in my search for the truth, I was tending not to read into the everyday laws set out by God in the Quran, such as the divorce procedure etc. But to be honest, now, after having read literature by modern literal interpreters (Aidid Safar in particular), I have the impression that serving God means to do what he tells us to do. This can be from not lying to not killing someone. Applying this to our infamous father/son scenario, if the father tells the son to throw the garbage out, then the son does it, the son has served the father by obeying his commands. Likewise, we serve God by obeying his commands, which are clear and simple in the Quran. The point at which you and I split up is when I say all we need is what God has made clear to us. And from what I understand (forgive me if I am wrong), you believe that it?s a good thing to take up God?s attributes, although the title of this thread suggests that you were suggesting that we should be like God. I disagree with this, not only because we have already got enough on our plates through clear guidance in the Quran, but because it has never said that we need to be like God in anyway, or take up any attributes of his.

Simple logic would say that it would be good to be merciful and forgiving etc., as you have put in the list within your initial post in this thread, I accept that fully. But, we must accept the fact that it is extremely dangerous to infer teachings which do not exist in the Quran, because personally, I would consider that equivalent to adding our words to the Quran. So my argument is simple, if it does not tell us that we have to take up the attributes given to God in the Quran, and if we have already been fully instructed directly without the need for subjective inference how to live our lives, which indeed everyone would accept is true, the I see no need to look further for things to do to occupy ourselves. As I said earlier, the duties we have been given to do are enough to challenge us to our limits, but not beyond, as the attributes given to God would, because they are simply not within our limits.

With regards to the father scenario which was narrated by most recently, I would serve my father for being my father, not for being a teacher or an accountant or anything else. Whatever he is doing at the time, whether he is at work as a teacher or at home as a family member, I would still serve him by respecting him and obeying what he tells me to do. I would not feel the need be like him in the ways which he has not instructed me, I would do what he says directly, and if this involves doing something that he does then I would, but that would be because he has told me to do that, not because I want to be like him.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

hlatif

Salam All,

I have two examples of attributes of GOD that will be considered negative on Humans

5023 Huwa Allahu allathee lailaha illa huwa almaliku alquddoosu alssalamualmu/minu almuhayminu alAAazeezu aljabbaru almutakabbirusubhana Allahi AAamma yushrikoona

Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

And here are two examples where those attributes are negative on humans

1415 Waistaftahoo wakhabakullu jabbarin AAaneedin
But they sought victory and decision (there and then), and frustration was the lot of every powerful obstinate transgressor.
The translator used Transgressor but the word is JABBAR

4027Waqala moosa innee AAuthtubirabbee warabbikum min kulli mutakabbirin la yu/minubiyawmi alhisabi
Moses said "I have indeed called upon my Lord and your Lord (for protection) from every arrogant one who believes not in the Day of Account!"
Again it is the same word MUTAKABBERR

So, We have to remember those examples.

4211 Fatiru alssamawatiwaal-ardi jaAAala lakum min anfusikum azwajanwamina al-anAAami azwajan yathraokum feehilaysa kamithlihi shay-on wahuwa alssameeAAu albaseeru
(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle by this means does He multiply you there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things)

Salam All

Hussein

unknownuser

Salaam Natu,
you are right from what the quran is saying-i agree and accept that to the letter.

But let me ask you a few simple quistions i think when you answer them you may see my point of view more clearly.

Allah - the one who subdues wrong and restores right ,of course this is from the quran as this is one of his attributes.

Are we in a postion to carry out this action(or rather allowed to carry out this sought of action) "Subdue wrong and restore right"
what do you think.?

I will ask you i think 99 such quistions but be sure to say the truth.Be patient and i will surprise you with your own arguement/s.

Thanks.

Nural_Amin

Peace everyone,

Quran states there is none LIKE GOD (according to translations I have read). Let's all accept that unless I am wrong. His attributes are beyond our grasp they cannot be expressed through language.

You cannot be LIKE GOD. None can because GOD is PERFECT and that is well accepted amongst all seekers. Believers in ONE PERFECT GOD agree that HE is perfect and nothing is like GOD.

Let's stick to the idea of monothiesm and a PERFECT GOD rather than having saints popping up and turning out to be 'LIKE' GOD.

Peace

Nural

unknownuser

Peace be upon you NAtu and all,

Certainly we are here to SERVE the God by awakening the attributes of teh God WITHIN ourselves. The God is closer than the Jugular vein, so why are not theses LATENT- TALENTS not within us? Did not the God blow into us from HIS Divine Energy (Ruh Ul Qudus)? Were we not created on the God's pattern of Creation?

So keep up your face(character) to the system(correct order of things), (as) one who is peacefully submissive, The God's nature/pattern which He created/originated the people on it, (there is) no change to The God's creation, that (is) the correct system (correct order of things), and but most of the people do not know.

Yes, MOST OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW that we are suppossed to BEVAVE GODLY! We can see this clearly every second of the day.

How can one not see the benefit of acting according to the God's pattern which he created the people on? This is indeed the correct order of things.

The word "God" is only yet another attribute of the ONE, the WHOLE, of which we are PARTS. The parts SERVE the Whole, isnt that what we are told our purpose is? To Serve the God?

I see the word "God" the same way I see "Governor", there is no governor like THE GOVERNOR, so we don't need to worry about calling our own selves "GOD", We are only manifastations of the ONE, the WHOLE.

beatnik

Nural has stolen some of my thunder, lol, but yes I agree. Cue rambling thoughts

The thread title is either misleading, naive or dangerous, I cant tell at this point, the debates have had many twists and turns, lol.

First off, the analogies to father/son are too Christian for my liking, people may think we were created in God's image, but I dont agree, and dont see that in the Quran either. We are human, made of 'mud/clay', from a drop of semen, from water compounds, we are a creation with a purpose, and that purpose involves journeying to our Creator. We are nothing alike in my opinion, God says a few times we can be replaced with something else easily, we are constantly warned to differentiate between creation and the Creater who has the keys to the Unseen. Yes human has God's 'ruh' blown into him in the beginning, and that was then formed into the shape of Adam, but this just means we have the base intelligence and moral compass within us thanks to God. We are all still spiritually children, and I dont think we even begin to start to mature until we die. We are always called children in the Quran, we are at a very young stage in our evolutionary timeline, the next stage is on Judgement Day.

The attributes of God, that God has made available to us in the Quran are conveyed to us in human language. We can never fully grasp what God is, only God can perceive everything fully.

We can never be like God. Nor are we commanded to, because we're forbidden to attribute anything else with God. It is a sin. We're told repeatedly how people get lost in this life, hypnotized by the world, when we should be aware there is another level to aspire to, freeing our minds of 'reality' is promoted in my opinion, and getting bogged down back in 'matter' is discouraged as it leads to negative thoughts and actions, materliasm basically. We're told to not associate anything with God, especially not each other/ourselves, even if it is done by mistake, for love for God Himself, it is a sin, as there are examples in the Quran of people on Judgement Day claiming they did not know they were in error, but that is no excuse.

God is something beyond our comprehension, the '99 names of God' are merely the best qualities of human beings, to show us how great God is. We're limited in how we perceive reality, in how we think and accept information through our senses, and so it is as if God 'dumbs down' the message to our level to make us understand His magnifence. If you were going to explain something amazing to a child, you would use language a child would understand and respond to.

So basically what I'm thinking is, all the qualities described in the Quran do not make up God, no way near do they. They are the best qualities of human beings that God is naturally the Master of, to make us submit in awe. God is so great we cannot understand it, the Quran is a mercy on us all.

So attempting to gain the qualities, is not so bad, but it all comes down to intent at the end of the day, and satan is quick to take advantage of intent and turn it around. One day a man might believe he is learning how to be strong so he can be like God, who the man loves and respects, and not because he is trying to literally be like/or actually be God, but at the end of his life, he might for a second, realise satan twisted his philosophy at some point and made him eventually make life for millions of people miserable, because he used his strength wrongly, eventually becoming a dictator.

Or something.

End ramble.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Beatnik,

First off, the analogies to father/son are too Christian for my liking, people may think we were created in God's image, but I dont agree, and dont see that in the Quran either.

Isn't the God omnipresent(Everywhere)? So tell me what I can point in space-time and say "God does not exsist there". Once we realize this cant be done, then we realize that God is ALL. The God is the WHOLE of which we are parts. This is the God's pattern(fitra) which he created the people on. God informs us of this when He tells us the He is closer then the jugular vein. The God informs us of this when He states He blew into us His Divine Energy(ruh). How can we have the God's essence flowing through us , but not the attributes?

We are human, made of 'mud/clay', from a drop of semen, from water compounds,

Is the God missing from those manifestations? Or can we say "The God is not there"?

we are a creation with a purpose

Yes, to SERVE the WHOLE(God), to manifest the attributes that lead to PEACE.

, and that purpose involves journeying to our Creator

NO, journeying to change our behavior with the realization that God is within. We are told that those who purify the mind/spirit WITHIN are successful and those who corrupt it fail. So we SERVE the WHOLE by purifying our minds so that the attributes of the God can flow through our Being, that is to say that the WORD (SOUND) of the God can flow through the PERSON (conveyer of sound).

We are nothing alike in my opinion

Its impossible to be like the WHOLE, which includes the part we cant even see, but we are created on the God's pattern, and this is why He mentions to us His attributes. This is why the conversation goes from I , to me , to We.

God says a few times we can be replaced with something else easily

Yes, the God does not need us, but He uses us to fulfill a purpose that will be fulfilled wether you agree to it or not.

, we are constantly warned to differentiate between creation and the Creater who has the keys to the Unseen
.

We are told to focus on the WHOLE(God) because we cannot get the answer to anything by only focusing on part of it. That is why the difference is pointed out. We are part of that WHOLE and we serve the WHOLE. BUt we have to RUKU(CHange direction) of our behavior, we were created weak and must allow the Divine Energy(Ruh ul qudus) to grow in our purified beings.

Yes human has God's 'ruh' blown into him in the beginning, and that was then formed into the shape of Adam, but this just means we have the base intelligence and moral compass within us thanks to God. We are all still spiritually children, and I dont think we even begin to start to mature until we die. We are always called children in the Quran, we are at a very young stage in our evolutionary timeline, the next stage is on Judgement Day.

Again, the God is omnipresent, this closes the subject on where the God's attributes lie, they are everywhere. Yes, we are children, they represent a clay like mentality, able to CHANGE. We were created weak, yet on the God's pattern Still, so we have to discover the pattern and allow the God's ruh to grow within us as Isa showed us.

The attributes of God, that God has made available to us in the Quran are conveyed to us in human language. We can never fully grasp what God is, only God can perceive everything fully.

Who is talking about grasping the God fully? We are talking about hearing and obeying, you heard that the God is forgiving, now implement that attribute in your life and see if it is beneficial or not, verify it.

We can never be like God

We can never be the God(The Whole) because we are only parts, but we can certainly be God Like, if not, tell me then what does your salaat order you? Is it Iblis Like?

Nor are we commanded to, because we're forbidden to attribute anything else with God. It is a sin.

Manifesting attributes is not equating anything next to the God. Please explain in detail how you relate the two.

We're told repeatedly how people get lost in this life, hypnotized by the world, when we should be aware there is another level to aspire to

Yes, they get lost in this false sense of seperation, they forget that we are all interconnected, The God is ONE.

, freeing our minds of 'reality' is promoted in my opinion, and getting bogged down back in 'matter' is discouraged as it leads to negative thoughts and actions, materliasm basically. We're told to not associate anything with God, especially not each other/ourselves, even if it is done by mistake, for love for God Himself, it is a sin, as there are examples in the Quran of people on Judgement Day claiming they did not know they were in error, but that is no excuse.

Manifesting the attributes that make up pattern we were created on is not associatinfg the human with the God.

God is something beyond our comprehension, the '99 names of God' are merely the best qualities of human beings, to show us how great God is.

Yes, you just gave yourself the answer, ou said the attributes of the God are the attributes of Humans, so why would you be adverse to manifesting these attributes?

We're limited in how we perceive reality, in how we think and accept information through our senses, and so it is as if God 'dumbs down' the message to our level to make us understand His magnifence. If you were going to explain something amazing to a child, you would use language a child would understand and respond to.

Correct.

So basically what I'm thinking is, all the qualities described in the Quran do not make up God, no way near do they

But you see, now your concept of the God has become some object, rather than the WHOLE. The signs of the God are in Creation, certainly there were faithful before this book called "quran". What attributes did they have?

They are the best qualities of human beings that God is naturally the Master of, to make us submit in awe. God is so great we cannot understand it, the Quran is a mercy on us all.

YOu see, we are coming to a barrier, beyond which we cannot speak on because we have no knowledge of it. SO we agree that th height of our knowledge is the OBSEVRABLE attributes of the WHOLE, is it beneficial to try to manifest these attributes? Yes or No.

So attempting to gain the qualities, is not so bad, but it all comes down to intent at the end of the day, and satan is quick to take advantage of intent and turn it around. One day a man might believe he is learning how to be strong so he can be like God, who the man loves and respects, and not because he is trying to literally be like/or actually be God

Who here is claimiing to be the WHOLE? WHo here is claiming to be the Creator of creators? All that is being said is that we were created on a certain pattern and we should try to not block those attributes from naturally manifesting from our Being. We are beings who are part of the SUPREME BEING. A drop of water cannot call itself an ocean, but it has the properties of ocean water.

, but at the end of his life, he might for a second, realise satan twisted his philosophy at some point and made him eventually make life for millions of people miserable, because he used his strength wrongly, eventually becoming a dictator.

How can one who calls people to manifest the God's attributes make life for people misarable? Please elaborate.

Natu

Peace.

Its good to see more people contributing to this thread, instead of it just being an argument between me and mz357.

I still feel that this argument has gone far enough in arguing with each other over the wording of our views. As I have said before, the only way we can come to a decent shared conclusion instead of insulting each others views is by asking God himself, by referring to the Quran.

I thank Hussein for highlighting the following verse

4211
(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle by this means does He multiply you there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things)

lets dwell on one particular portion of this verse '...He is the one...' What more do we need to tell us that God is 'the one' who is X, God is 'the one' who is Y? Nothing else can therefore be, or even make attempts to try to be X or Y.

Firstly I'd like to respond to mz357's last post, which states that we should be like God becuase he subdues wrong and restores the right, and that seems t be a good thing for humans to do . Well lets consider the fact that it is a good thing to subdue wrong and restore right, I don't know anybody that would disagree with this point. But I am getting tired of repeating this simple fact. We are told do this in the Quran anyway, and nowhere does it say it the Quran that we need to be like God by subdueing wrong and restoring right. Mz357 intends to challenge me with 99 such questions, and is questioning whether I will reply with the truth. Well mister 'mz357', I have made clear on this thread that I advocate healthy debate, so don't think I'm going to be afraid of these super difficult 99 questions which you can ask me, so you can push me and we'll see who falls . (What is intersting is that although mz357 is threatening me by saying that he will qustion me with all 99 names, he has still not be able to give an explanation as to how a human can take up God's first attribute of 'almighty' - maybe I could be a bit lenient and let him talk about the other 98 from now on).

By the way, with regards to the fact that mz357 is questioning me as to whether I would respond to his false ideology with the truth, I would request all readers of this thread to refer back to a portion of mz357's posts. Please read the first paragraph of mz357's post, which appeared as the 13th post on this thread. I would very much enjoy hearing why mz357 decided to back out of the 'quote' based argument which he himself began in this thread. (Then is it me who may respond without the whole truth?). As far his conceptions of me being suprised by as being suprised by my own argument, I think readers of this thread will have realised that mz357 has weakened his own so far that he no longer believes in the title he gave to this thread which he authored himself, so I can't help but laugh at how he's going to get me to contradict my own views lol .

Leaving this aside, brother 'idolfree1' suggests that we are supposed to behave GODLY. My view only differs to his by one letter, which would be the extra O added after the G in 'Godly'. As far as I understand, in our day to day life, we realise how we are supposed to behave in a good way, as prescribed by God through direct commands in the Quran, and not to behave Godly, which would otherwise involve us bring new individuals into this world, taking some up to heaven, controlling the universe, and all the rest of what God does. Which personally I don't think I am capable of.

I would like to speak on behalf of brother Beatnik against the criticisms put forward by brother idolfree1. It has been suggested that since God is everywhere, God is everything, and we are parts of God. Well what I woud have to say to that is that God is not something that our logic of this world would consider as physical, he is eveywhere, and in everything, but that does not mean everything is part of God. Even if do decide that everything is part of God, why would God want to test us, which are parts of himself anyway. The fact is that he is eveywhere, and when he created us, he did no create extra parts of himself, I don't think he needs to.

Purifying oneself has clearly been experienced by most of us at free-minds when we left hadith books and traditions behind to obey God, when he told us not to set up partners beside him. To purify ourselves we don't need to go on a big mission to be like God in anyway, sorry, let me rephrase that, to try and act like God. Everything we need to do to purify ourselves in prescribed by God directly in the Quran, we don't need to try and be like God.

'hear and obey' - when God tells us that he is forgiving, we obey by asking him fo forgivness to make use of this attribute of God, we don't need to try and be forgiving just becuase God is forgiving, we should be forgiving because God has directly told us to be forgiving in the Quran.

Perhaps what brother beatnik means by saying that the 99 names are the best qualities of human beings is that these qualities are what all human beings consider as being the 'best', and people would want to be 'almighty' for example, but the truth is, this cannot be achieved by anybody except God. When we decide to be forgiving or merciful, these are things which are possible for humans to do, which is why we have been told do these things directly. We should do these things that we are told to do to obey God, and not say that we do these things to be like God instead of obeying God.

I CHALLENGE mz357 or anyone else registered on this forum to find a verse in the Quran which says clearly that we should take up God attributes as an additional duty to living life in the way God has told us to. If such a verse cannot be found, then find a verse from which we can infer such a conclusion. Then we shall discuss these, God willing. I am not against expression of individual interpretation, but I will not tolerate the spreading of unjust inference, and will try my level best to combat anything like this which has unimagineable potential to divide us all. May God guide us all to the truth.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

unknownuser

Salaams mr Natu,
sorry to say you sound like a warrior and i don't intend to debate with a warrior - that is my direction ,which i have learnt by doing it in the past.I like to debate over matters in a decenct way, but unfortunately not warriors, or people who have faith like them.If i meet such a person i have learnt to say peace and continue my own way.

sorry i for one wouldn't want to share with people who always try poking their finger in you eye.

Sorry but our debate is at an end ,but if anybody wanted to ask a quistion or two ,all are welcome,and the thread still continues for peoples views.

beatnik

I dont have much to say now, short for time, but I mostly agree with Natu, and also, I think the difference between Idolfree and myself, is that I see creation as evidence of God, not God Himself. This reality is merely a temporary construct for our benefit. The angels record our deeds, and deliver the information to God who resides outside our space and time. Wherever the Throne may be. Yes, I see God everywhere in a sense, I see His handiwork, His proof.

Its impossible to be like the WHOLE, which includes the part we cant even see, but we are created on the God's pattern, and this is why He mentions to us His attributes. This is why the conversation goes from I , to me , to We.

I dont think it says anywhere in the Quran we are created 'on God's pattern', and isnt 'We' a royal way of referring to oneself?

Manifesting attributes is not equating anything next to the God. Please explain in detail how you relate the two.

How can one who calls people to manifest the God's attributes make life for people misarable?

Its all in the intent, and intent changes when the ego gets better of you.

But you see, now your concept of the God has become some object, rather than the WHOLE.

I see your viewpoint as lowering God to an object to be honest (no offense, it just appears like that to me), something more tangible to identify with, and I dont really get the whole 'whole' vibe from the Quran. I see this life like a game, like God says numerous times, a virtual reality that God created, He can see us at all times, viewing through a screen that resembles an unrolled scroll so He sees past, present and future as well, and God is outside of it. I'm not saying we have no current connection to God, because we know we have the ruh in us, and it is up to us (and God's will) whether we utilise the ruh and free our minds. I dont see us as some sort of limbs of God that connect onto him after Judgement Day, it kind of insinuates God needs us, which isnt the case, we can be destroyed and replaced with another type of creation easily. We have to let go of such things as pride idolfree, sometimes like Socrates we have to think "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" because God has only allowed us so much information to digest with our limited capacity, sometimes we have to realise God is beyond analysis, we know what we must do, its in a reading made plain and clear, and in my opinion, it does not say to be like God in any shape or form.

mz357, I do not understand your last post, but will respect it, although I must say I've only seen a normal debate occuring in this thread, nothing bad at all. Like I said in a different thread, we all although have registered here because of a need to free our minds from tradition, seem to yet have very different opinions on God's words, and it will always be like that. This is why I think individually doing the best we can in Islam will be far more effective globally than attempting to unify under a banner or flag, it will only further create sects, when people disagree with each other. As long as a person tries to be good while following their interpretation of Islam then so be it. And debate is always recommended to potentially advance a person's way of thinking and purify their ruh.

Peace all.

Natu

Peace.

My friends, MZ357 has pulled out the classic trick of labelling. Throught this thread I have based by views on the Quran alone, and I have abstained from insulting anybody. But when you decided to question my integrity I believe the situation was such that my counterattack was pefectly justified. You only view me as a 'warior' becuase you have nothing whatsoever to argue your baseless point with. You effectively tried to throw dirt on my appearnace by trying to make it look as though I have been answering your questions without the strength of the truth, but I'm afraid your accusations backfire when readers look at how you have tried to change the subject of this thread from 'shouldn't we be like God' to 'shouldn't we try/strive/hope to try and act like him'. There is clearly no difference between either of these two statements, the second of which you created in trying to wriggle away from my criticisms of your argument. The truth is that MZ357 has backed out of this arguent becuase he is afraid of facing the truth. I feel disappointed in having to say this becuase I would have enjoyed carrying on this debate on basis of the Quran, without formulated theories which hold no water.

If Mz357 is confident enough to hold his false beliefs then he must be confident enough to stop running away from this argument. He simply cannot accept my challenge, that is why he has labelled me as a 'warrior', much like sectarians would label us at free-minds as 'khalifites'. Instead of labelling me as a 'warrior' why does he not accept that it is not me that is getting any bigger, but him that is being intimidated by the truth.

As far as sounding like a warrior goes, may I remind the reader that all the way through this thread I have expressed the fact that I believe in healthy debate to reached a sound shared conclusion, and I have done so. Even when in response to accusations of lying I challenged Mz357 to come up with verses rom the Quran. In doing this I was not agressing in anyway shape or form. He percieved it to be so, becuase he has failed this argument. If he thinks he has not failed I suggest he comes back to this thread and continue the discussion, rather than 'running like a zebra'. Let me stress again, whether it is me or anybody else, we should all work to change our views to accept what the Quran says, and the Quran never says that we should start to try and act like God. Simple. I would much appreciate it if in the event that MZ357 does not turn up to defend his feeble position, other contributors carry on, becuase this issue of trying to be like God is too important to disregard.

MZ357 has claimed that he alays wants to debate over matters in a decent way, yet sadly he has not been able to do so in this case at all, whether he has done in in the past or not. He began mocking my criticisms by making unecessary quotations from my input to the discusion, and then he tried to stain my appearnace by trying to say that I lie in response to his views, and finally he nas run away and stuck his head in the sand like an ostrich. Then he has the gaul to say that I am always trying to poke my finger in his eye. Well that would be physically impossible becuase this hopeless character has his eyes shut to avoid facing the truth. If he finds what I am saying right now offensive, then may he come back and continue this discussion in the decent way that we all accept. May the shame be on him if he has no courage left to discus this issue with me.

I must make clear again, I remain an open minded individual who welcomes criticisms of any kind, and is willing to change personal views in the light of the Quran, may God carry on showing me and everyone else the truth, and give us the strength to change ourselves in favour of the truth.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

Natu

Peace.

I agree with Beatnik. God is God, and humans are humans. There simply cannot be an overlap.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

unknownuser

Salaams Mr natu ,
i hold to my views - unfortunately.

And you hold yours,i thought it better left to that partially because

i don't like debating .Although when someone asks for my reasoning i usually give it.

But there is this verse as well which i think we need to keep in picture

042.016
YUSUFALI But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord on them will be a Penalty terrible.

Just came accross a day ago.

Thanks,and take care.

Nural_Amin

Peace,

I also agree that man is SEPARATE from GOD. The MASTER from the servant. The CREATOR from the created. There is nothing NEAR equivalance or even the likeness of GOD within MAN. There is none like GOD. There may be extremely kind and forgiving men but they are still NOTHING like GOD.

Peace

Nural

Natu

Peace.

042.016 But those who dispute concerning Allah after He has been accepted,- futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord on them will be a Penalty terrible.

Perhaps this verse could be seen more accurately by looking closely at the wording of ' those who dispute concerning GOD'. God has never stopped us from pondering over anything, and what he implies in this verse is that those who dispute concerning God, i.e. those who think the can argue against his existence, will be punished. But neither of us here are areguing against his existence, the issue is different to this altogether. The way I see it, since this topic has been brought up, it is both mine and your responsibility to carry on this debate, so the truth is reached, seen as leaving an issue like this unattended could result in great divisions between this community which we are part of.

Lets take a fresh start again, and throw away any differences between the two of us. Only then will the truth be reached.

Peace.
Natu on the line.