Meaning of Kitabun in Chapter 41:3

Armanaziz

Salamun Alaikum.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Book conveying knowledge? Do you not comprehend?

2105 Neither do those who have rejected fabricated from among the people of the Book knowledge scholars, nor from among the polytheists sectarians, wish that any good comes down to you from your Lord. But God chooses with His mercy whom He wishes; and from God is the greatest grace.

2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both teachers of the knowledge to you! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

2120 Neither the Jews nor the Nazarenes will be pleased with you until you follow their creed. Say ?The guidance is the guidance of God.? And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then there is none who can help or protect you against God.

2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from among yourselves to recite convey Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Book knowledge and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.

Lots of verses still translated with "LA" as "No/not" MoF? It would be quite interesting to see how these verses would look if you apply your full "creative interpretation" upon them. Why are you using erroneous translations of others, while you know they are wrong?

Kitab (or Book) is not but knowledge in recorded form. So, it is not a rocket science that one would be able to safely replace "book" with "knowledge" ... in most cases. But careful re-examination reveals that instead of just "knowledge", "recorded knowledge" fits much better in many of these verses.

For example in 2740 the person who described / brought Queen Sheba's Dominion to Solomon clearly had prior knowledge about Sheba's dominion from some form of recorded source (i.e. book).

What kind of book do you think will help this person here? The person is rather understanding of knowledge or simply being a knowledgeable/insightful person.

Seriously? Simply a knowledgeable or understanding person can describe the cuture / domain of a foreign country? Someone please inform me about the domain/culture of Qinghai province of China without taking help from any book (recorded knowledge).

2113 And the Jews say ?The Nazarenes have no basis,? and the Nazarenes say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both teachers of the knowledge to you! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Two groups with knowledge can often contradict each other if their knowledge comes from different sources - there is nothing strange/silly about that. It only becomes ridiculous when two groups debate over the knowledge from the same recorded source (i.e. book).

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Saad_Bekker

... And the translation is Monotheist Translation with modifications to correct some errors. It still contains myriad errors.

Have faith

Man of Faith,

I enjoy your inputs, but I do not quite understand why you recommend the Monotheist Translation because it seems not to reflect anything like your trains of thought?

Do I have the correct Monotheist Translation?

Saad_Bekker

My two cents on the matter.

...Therefor the whole debate wether Kitabun means book or not is highly irrelevant. Quran is still authentic and corresponding with original recitations.

I use the word recitation deliberately. Even when Quran was not revealed entirely, prophet Muhammad was reciting Gods Quran.

Running let me explain again what my problem is

We are taught that the Quran is the Speech of Allah.
If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death.

Even the peaces of material which was collected containing the Verses for example could at no time before the book was bound, be called Book.

So for the Quran to refer to itself as a Book creates the idea that the compilers and binders of the Quran added or rewrote some Verses and inadvertently gave themselves away by the use of "Book" inside the same Book... or what do you think?

Saad_Bekker

Harmony be with you Saad,

Well. My translation is entirely different from mainstream translation with another grammar system, so it looks nothing like the traditional one.

21 Be To Thereof
22 Which (to) cause knowledge to be (made) testament to bring affiliation to the conscious ones.

EDIT I realized that MOTAQEEN is rather marking consciousness ( Character Express(ed)) as in awareness, like opposite of being blind spiritually.

Sorry, I ran out of time to recheck this draft more than once, but according to me the discourse looks something like this. 21 is part of the scripture and is a secret towards interpreting the whole scripture, hard-coded there from the start without scholars being aware of it.

Have faith

Man of Faith, thank you but you lost me I think it is because you did it in a hurry.

Be so kind and explain it clearer I do not quite get the correlation between your translation here and the Arabic. ;D

Saad_Bekker

Salam and Peace,

what is underlined is only conjecture, no where in the Great Reading you find such assertion/statement!

The word Quran root Qaf-Ra-hamza, means reading, Quran means Great Reading, or endless Reading.

While Kitabun, is based on root Kaf-Ta-ba, to write, thus kitabun, something written, this imply The Quran was already written in prophete's time, many verses attest this.

Yes kitabun can mean scripture, ahlu alkitab means people of the scriptures, like christians, jewish, and so called muslims.

There was also a thread here that explain Kitab means more widely all Holy Books, because all holy books are in definitive one message, the same for everyone.

Peace

Good thank you Herbman,

Please honor me then also with your translation of "Surah" 2 verse 2 regarding the Arabic which seems to mean "That Book..." as well as your kind explanation of what "that Book refers to.

hawk99

But, from where I stand, as ex Christian, neither Jesus nor Mohammed had a Book from which to teach because

Peace Saad Bekker

There were scribes that recorded what they heard, and the original records of Jesus cannot be found.

(Muhammad received revelation in his tongue)

43/3 Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

(Quran part of another book)

43/4 And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom.

Not yet in book form

Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command,
verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

Now the question begs, is there a book?

Now the Quran is a book, I have one right here, its not a cat or a bird it's a book, however
the transmission from the Angel to Muhammad was not a book but the revelation which was later
put in book form.

God bless you

peace

Mazhar

Good thank you Herbman,

Please honor me then also with your translation of "Surah" 2 verse 2 regarding the Arabic which seems to mean "That Book..." as well as your kind explanation of what "that Book refers to.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.002.gif

First word is a demonstrative pronoun and is the subject of nominal sentence. A speaker and author use a demonstrative pronoun to divert and focus the attention of the addressee towards the pointed object, person or concept for assigning it a peculiarity/individuality. Visual axis focused upon an object yields its perfect perception. Therefore, any thing in the reach of the vision that has since been perceived is no more distant irrespective of its distance from the addressee. It stands introduced to the addressee. This demonstrative pronoun is a pointer-introducer of Al-Kitab definite noun signifying a specific known book to the second person-the reader who has either picked it up or to whom it is presented.

The two words do not convey full information for the person who picks it up at his own and to whom it is presented for reading. The book is in the hands of the addressee or is in the process of handing over to him, therefore, it is manifest that the intent of Speaker/Author is not limited to tell him, "This is the Book" or "That is the Book" because he already knows it or is watching it on presentation. The intent is to draw his concentrated attention towards the peculiarity and distinction of its contents-miscellany which he has not yet read and is still distant from his information and perception. This makes him attentive and enthusiastic to hear or read its ascription/predication.

Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book

runninglikezebras

Running let me explain again what my problem is

We are taught that the Quran is the Speech of Allah.
If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death.

Even the peaces of material which was collected containing the Verses for example could at no time before the book was bound, be called Book.

So for the Quran to refer to itself as a Book creates the idea that the compilers and binders of the Quran added or rewrote some Verses and inadvertently gave themselves away by the use of "Book" inside the same Book... or what do you think?

I think this problem does not really exist but arises from some assumptions you make that look invalid to me.

"If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed...."

This premise is incorrect. Allah did not say these words to Mohammed. Quite literally Gods words were coming out of the prophets mouth.

"... then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death."

First of all, those hypothetical 23 years of revelation don't mean anything from Gods perspective. When the first verse was revealed the entire book was already there. Not in the material world but the design of it was already finished. How would you explain the linguistic interlocking of Quran? Many topics are repeated in separate chapters. If this book was revealed piece by piece with no finished design already in place, it would lead to many contradictions, incompleteness etc. We know Quran does not have contradiction and is nowhere incomplete. Let me try to explain this with a mundane example. An author writes a draft for a book. The draft is finished and reviewed. Inside that text it refers to itself as a book. But the book is not printed yet. Does this mean the publisher can still change the text without the permission of the author before it gets printed? Of course it doesn't.

When God creates something, he says be and it is. This is valid from Gods perspective. When God gives the Book to Muhammed, the 23 years of revelation are nothing but physical reality catching up with manifesting that creation into this world. God already knows Muhammed will reveal the entirety of the Quran even before he uttered the first verses from it. God knows not one letter of it will be changed. The only task of the messenger is to deliver (similar to the publisher in my mundane example).

Compare this to other of Gods creations when God created eg the Sun. Did it manifest in one day? No it didn't. It was a process that took a massive amount of time to form what we now know as the sun. Does this imply the design of the Sun has been changed since God created it and when it fully manifested itself? Of course not, it's fully according to Gods plan. God is most wise.

I encourage you to ponder upon the process of creation. As humans it's a concept that's hard to grasp. But these things we know God is not bound by time. This world is bound by time. Therefor any creation is immediate from Gods perspective but takes time in the physical world to manifest itself. This is fully compatible with big bang, evolution and a completed kitaab even before the entire Quran was revealed.

Saad_Bekker

Peace Saad Bekker

There were scribes that recorded what they heard, and the original records of Jesus cannot be found.

(Muhammad received revelation in his tongue)

43/3 Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

(Quran part of another book)

43/4 And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom.

Not yet in book form

Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command,
verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

Now the question begs, is there a book?

Now the Quran is a book, I have one right here, its not a cat or a bird it's a book, however
the transmission from the Angel to Muhammad was not a book but the revelation which was later
put in book form.

God bless you

peace

Thank you Hawk99,

Your explanation is reasonable and clear. So, how would you then translate Surah 22?

Saad_Bekker

... How would you explain the linguistic interlocking of Quran? Many topics are repeated in separate chapters. ...

Running,
Thankyou for your explanation,
I am pondering on it.

But just a little off the point under discussion when I first in 2007 as sincere Revert read the Quran fast and in a short period of time I got the distinct impression that it is actually nothing more than a compilation of essays. My first thoughts when I saw all the repetitions were Someone one day wanted to compile a Book for the Muslims to have one like the Christians and decided to get a number of people to write some essays and then just compiled it. The subject they had to write about could even have been "Allah's revelation to Mohammed."

Do you think my first impressions were far fetched?

hawk99

Thank you Hawk99,

Your explanation is reasonable and clear. So, how would you then translate Surah 22?

Peace Saad Bekker

Dhalika al-Kitabu la rayba fihi hudanl lil-muttaqina
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

If the dispute is about Dhalika "that" or "this" that would be understandable, I think Dhalika means "that"
however the connotation is that the Quran and the "Book" are part and parcel of one another, one being
close i.e., "this" (what you have with you i.e., the Quran) and "that" being the broader book which the
Quran is part of i.e., 43/4). Therefore "this" is a better syntactical fit for 2/2 IMHO. Arabic speakers may
have a better understanding than my own.

Allah knows best.

God bless you

peace

runninglikezebras

Running,
Thankyou for your explanation,
I am pondering on it.

But just a little off the point under discussion when I first in 2007 as sincere Revert read the Quran fast and in a short period of time I got the distinct impression that it is actually nothing more than a compilation of essays. My first thoughts when I saw all the repetitions were Someone one day wanted to compile a Book for the Muslims to have one like the Christians and decided to get a number of people to write some essays and then just compiled it. The subject they had to write about could even have been "Allah's revelation to Mohammed."

Do you think my first impressions were far fetched?

They aren't far fetched they are wrong. Pay attention to how each repetition of topic in different surah is slightly different. Many times this mechanism in Quran has helped to find out the true meaning of a verse. It offers us a tool for cross-checking interpretation. They are repeated deliberately and protect it's objective truth.

Farabi

In hebrew ketubim(written ketuvim) mean scriptures. I think it tied up with kitab on arabic.

Farabi

anyway, this is an old jewish song where Calf was pronounciated as Kelbi https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZN80LDku2A. It seems there is connection about "Vaw" pronounciated. It seems "Vaw" sometimes pronounced as "B" sometime as "W".

Saad_Bekker

Peace Saad Bekker

Dhalika al-Kitabu la rayba fihi hudanl lil-muttaqina
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

If the dispute is about Dhalika "that" or "this" that would be understandable, I think Dhalika means "that"
however the connotation is that the Quran and the "Book" are part and parcel of one another, one being
close i.e., "this" (what you have with you i.e., the Quran) and "that" being the broader book which the
Quran is part of i.e., 43/4). Therefore "this" is a better syntactical fit for 2/2 IMHO. Arabic speakers may
have a better understanding than my own.

Allah knows best.

God bless you

peace

Thank you too Hawk,

But what you explained is exactly my problem

If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?
And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.

Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.

Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.

Saad_Bekker

In hebrew ketubim(written ketuvim) mean scriptures. I think it tied up with kitab on arabic...

...anyway, this is an old jewish song where Calf was pronounciated as Kelbi https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZN80LDku2A. It seems there is connection about "Vaw" pronounciated. It seems "Vaw" sometimes pronounced as "B" sometime as "W".

Farabi,

Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.

Farabi

Farabi,

Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
So, In my understanding Kitab mean something written, and it was book. And 22 is talked about Moses scripture which is called alkitab. There is a lot of verse on the quran that saying whoever did not establish the torah law and the christiant are not applying their teaching they are in darkness and wicked. So on my opinion, "That" in that verse was saying about the bible.

Farabi

I cant edit my post.

Kitab derived from root KTB which mean writing. And there is another word for describing literacy which is QLM. QLM mean was pen, but there is idion 'ILM QLM which mean literacy, but activity to produce a paper is kitab.

If you want to write, Farabi writing a books. On quran arabic it would be, "Farabi kataba kutubu".
Here is another example

Farabi history is written.
"Farabi qishash maktubi"

Farabi is a writer
"Farabi alkatib"

There is no other word to describe writing activity except using KTB word.

hawk99

Thank you too Hawk,

But what you explained is exactly my problem

If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?
And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.

Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.

Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.

Peace Saad Bekker,

Good questions, let's approach this horse from another angle. Please read 13/39, 43/2-4, 85/21-22, 57/22
then re-read my previous post. Give license to Allah who is trying to make a point to you, look at words
like they have broader meanings. A myopic view of words and meanings in the Quran will only hinder
your understanding. The word book, this, that, must be taken in context not only in the verse but in the
Quran as a whole.

Kitaabun = book

KAF-TA-BA he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed,
drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law),
mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ,
revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

God bless

peace

Saad_Bekker

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
...

Dear Farabi,

Just before I read your further comments let me assure you first that I am not sarcastic if you look at all my contributions here so far you would find no sarcasm just sincerity and kindness and great appreciation for every little bit of help to get my problem solved. )