Meaning of Kitabun in Chapter 41:3
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Running let me explain again what my problem is
- We are taught that the Quran is the Speech of Allah.
- If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death.
Even the peaces of material which was collected containing the Verses for example could at no time before the book was bound, be called Book.
So for the Quran to refer to itself as a Book creates the idea that the compilers and binders of the Quran added or rewrote some Verses and inadvertently gave themselves away by the use of "Book" inside the same Book... or what do you think?
I think this problem does not really exist but arises from some assumptions you make that look invalid to me.
"If the Quran therefor contains Verse for Verse and Word for Word what Allah said to Mohammed...."
This premise is incorrect. Allah did not say these words to Mohammed. Quite literally Gods words were coming out of the prophets mouth.
"... then we run into this problem at the time of Revelation which is generally and realistically given as a period of 23 years, or even if it was revealed all at once, how could Allah already at the time of the revelation of any of the Verses contained in the Quran, have said to Mohammed, to recite to his people about a Book, because the Quran as Book only came into existance when it was bound long after Mohammed death."
First of all, those hypothetical 23 years of revelation don't mean anything from Gods perspective. When the first verse was revealed the entire book was already there. Not in the material world but the design of it was already finished. How would you explain the linguistic interlocking of Quran? Many topics are repeated in separate chapters. If this book was revealed piece by piece with no finished design already in place, it would lead to many contradictions, incompleteness etc. We know Quran does not have contradiction and is nowhere incomplete. Let me try to explain this with a mundane example. An author writes a draft for a book. The draft is finished and reviewed. Inside that text it refers to itself as a book. But the book is not printed yet. Does this mean the publisher can still change the text without the permission of the author before it gets printed? Of course it doesn't.
When God creates something, he says be and it is. This is valid from Gods perspective. When God gives the Book to Muhammed, the 23 years of revelation are nothing but physical reality catching up with manifesting that creation into this world. God already knows Muhammed will reveal the entirety of the Quran even before he uttered the first verses from it. God knows not one letter of it will be changed. The only task of the messenger is to deliver (similar to the publisher in my mundane example).
Compare this to other of Gods creations when God created eg the Sun. Did it manifest in one day? No it didn't. It was a process that took a massive amount of time to form what we now know as the sun. Does this imply the design of the Sun has been changed since God created it and when it fully manifested itself? Of course not, it's fully according to Gods plan. God is most wise.
I encourage you to ponder upon the process of creation. As humans it's a concept that's hard to grasp. But these things we know God is not bound by time. This world is bound by time. Therefor any creation is immediate from Gods perspective but takes time in the physical world to manifest itself. This is fully compatible with big bang, evolution and a completed kitaab even before the entire Quran was revealed.
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Peace Saad Bekker
There were scribes that recorded what they heard, and the original records of Jesus cannot be found.
(Muhammad received revelation in his tongue)
43/3 Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
(Quran part of another book)
43/4 And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom.
Not yet in book form
Say Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command,
verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.Now the question begs, is there a book?
Now the Quran is a book, I have one right here, its not a cat or a bird it's a book, however
the transmission from the Angel to Muhammad was not a book but the revelation which was later
put in book form.God bless you
peace
Thank you Hawk99,
Your explanation is reasonable and clear. So, how would you then translate Surah 22?
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... How would you explain the linguistic interlocking of Quran? Many topics are repeated in separate chapters. ...
Running,
Thankyou for your explanation,
I am pondering on it.But just a little off the point under discussion when I first in 2007 as sincere Revert read the Quran fast and in a short period of time I got the distinct impression that it is actually nothing more than a compilation of essays. My first thoughts when I saw all the repetitions were Someone one day wanted to compile a Book for the Muslims to have one like the Christians and decided to get a number of people to write some essays and then just compiled it. The subject they had to write about could even have been "Allah's revelation to Mohammed."
Do you think my first impressions were far fetched?
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Thank you Hawk99,
Your explanation is reasonable and clear. So, how would you then translate Surah 22?
Peace Saad Bekker
Dhalika al-Kitabu la rayba fihi hudanl lil-muttaqina
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -If the dispute is about Dhalika "that" or "this" that would be understandable, I think Dhalika means "that"
however the connotation is that the Quran and the "Book" are part and parcel of one another, one being
close i.e., "this" (what you have with you i.e., the Quran) and "that" being the broader book which the
Quran is part of i.e., 43/4). Therefore "this" is a better syntactical fit for 2/2 IMHO. Arabic speakers may
have a better understanding than my own.Allah knows best.
God bless you
peace
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Running,
Thankyou for your explanation,
I am pondering on it.But just a little off the point under discussion when I first in 2007 as sincere Revert read the Quran fast and in a short period of time I got the distinct impression that it is actually nothing more than a compilation of essays. My first thoughts when I saw all the repetitions were Someone one day wanted to compile a Book for the Muslims to have one like the Christians and decided to get a number of people to write some essays and then just compiled it. The subject they had to write about could even have been "Allah's revelation to Mohammed."
Do you think my first impressions were far fetched?
They aren't far fetched they are wrong. Pay attention to how each repetition of topic in different surah is slightly different. Many times this mechanism in Quran has helped to find out the true meaning of a verse. It offers us a tool for cross-checking interpretation. They are repeated deliberately and protect it's objective truth.
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Peace Saad Bekker
Dhalika al-Kitabu la rayba fihi hudanl lil-muttaqina
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -If the dispute is about Dhalika "that" or "this" that would be understandable, I think Dhalika means "that"
however the connotation is that the Quran and the "Book" are part and parcel of one another, one being
close i.e., "this" (what you have with you i.e., the Quran) and "that" being the broader book which the
Quran is part of i.e., 43/4). Therefore "this" is a better syntactical fit for 2/2 IMHO. Arabic speakers may
have a better understanding than my own.Allah knows best.
God bless you
peace
Thank you too Hawk,
But what you explained is exactly my problem
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If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?
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And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.
Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.
Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.
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In hebrew ketubim(written ketuvim) mean scriptures. I think it tied up with kitab on arabic...
...anyway, this is an old jewish song where Calf was pronounciated as Kelbi https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZN80LDku2A. It seems there is connection about "Vaw" pronounciated. It seems "Vaw" sometimes pronounced as "B" sometime as "W".
Farabi,
Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.
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Farabi,
Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.
Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
So, In my understanding Kitab mean something written, and it was book. And 22 is talked about Moses scripture which is called alkitab. There is a lot of verse on the quran that saying whoever did not establish the torah law and the christiant are not applying their teaching they are in darkness and wicked. So on my opinion, "That" in that verse was saying about the bible. -
I cant edit my post.
Kitab derived from root KTB which mean writing. And there is another word for describing literacy which is QLM. QLM mean was pen, but there is idion 'ILM QLM which mean literacy, but activity to produce a paper is kitab.
If you want to write, Farabi writing a books. On quran arabic it would be, "Farabi kataba kutubu".
Here is another exampleFarabi history is written.
"Farabi qishash maktubi"Farabi is a writer
"Farabi alkatib"There is no other word to describe writing activity except using KTB word.
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Thank you too Hawk,
But what you explained is exactly my problem
-
If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?
-
And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.
Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.
Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.
Peace Saad Bekker,
Good questions, let's approach this horse from another angle. Please read 13/39, 43/2-4, 85/21-22, 57/22
then re-read my previous post. Give license to Allah who is trying to make a point to you, look at words
like they have broader meanings. A myopic view of words and meanings in the Quran will only hinder
your understanding. The word book, this, that, must be taken in context not only in the verse but in the
Quran as a whole.Kitaabun = book
KAF-TA-BA he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed,
drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law),
mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ,
revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.God bless
peace
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Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
...Dear Farabi,
Just before I read your further comments let me assure you first that I am not sarcastic if you look at all my contributions here so far you would find no sarcasm just sincerity and kindness and great appreciation for every little bit of help to get my problem solved. )
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Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
So, In my understanding Kitab mean something written, and it was book. And 22 is talked about Moses scripture which is called alkitab. There is a lot of verse on the quran that saying whoever did not establish the torah law and the christiant are not applying their teaching they are in darkness and wicked. So on my opinion, "That" in that verse was saying about the bible.
...
I cant edit my post.Kitab derived from root KTB which mean writing. And there is another word for describing literacy which is QLM. QLM mean was pen, but there is idion 'ILM QLM which mean literacy, but activity to produce a paper is kitab.
If you want to write, Farabi writing a books. On quran arabic it would be, "Farabi kataba kutubu".
Here is another exampleFarabi history is written.
"Farabi qishash maktubi"Farabi is a writer
"Farabi alkatib"There is no other word to describe writing activity except using KTB word.
Farabi,
Thank you for your input yours really also makes sense. So how would you translate 22 into English?Do you know Hebrew and Quran Arabic well? I am asking because right now I wish I had your knowledge. May Allah reward you greatly.
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Peace Saad Bekker,
Good questions, let's approach this horse from another angle. Please read 13/39, 43/2-4, 85/21-22, 57/22
then re-read my previous post. Give license to Allah who is trying to make a point to you, look at words
like they have broader meanings. A myopic view of words and meanings in the Quran will only hinder
your understanding. The word book, this, that, must be taken in context not only in the verse but in the
Quran as a whole.Kitaabun = book
KAF-TA-BA he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed,
drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law),
mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ,
revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.God bless
peace
Aha! So if I understand you correctly as well as the Verse/s you referred me to, you are saying that the "That Book..." referred to in the Quran 22, is actually the "Mother Book" (1339) which is with Allah?"
So "Dhalika l-kitabu" in 22 could/should be translated as "The original record, the "Mother Book" which is with Allah, is the book in which there is no doubt, and which is the guidance... "
I hope I understood correctly but if not please adjust my attempt to translate 22
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Aha! So if I understand you correctly as well as the Verse/s you referred me to, you are saying that the "That Book..." referred to in the Quran 22, is actually the "Mother Book" (1339) which is with Allah?"
So "Dhalika l-kitabu" in 22 could/should be translated as "The original record, the "Mother Book" which is with Allah, is the book in which there is no doubt, and which is the guidance... "
I hope I understood correctly but if not please adjust my attempt to translate 22
Almost! IMHO You have divided/separated the Quran from the Umm-ul-Kitab, nope when you
are reading Quran you are reading part of the "Mother Book" see 43/2-4, and 2/4 retranslate.God bless you
peace
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Farabi,
Thank you for your input yours really also makes sense. So how would you translate 22 into English?Do you know Hebrew and Quran Arabic well? I am asking because right now I wish I had your knowledge. May Allah reward you greatly.
My personal translation was "That book has no doubt in it, guidance for those who fears(muttaqin)". CMIIW.
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My personal translation was "That book has no doubt in it, guidance for those who fears(muttaqin)". CMIIW.
Good, thank you Farabi,
Now in your translation and according to your understanding which book does "That book..." refer to?
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Almost! IMHO You have divided/separated the Quran from the Umm-ul-Kitab, nope when you
are reading Quran you are reading part of the "Mother Book" see 43/2-4, and 2/4 retranslate.God bless you
peace
Hawk,
I think this Website summarizes what your view point is?
http//sufiyya.blogspot.com/2010/02/umm-al-kitab-surat-al-raad-13-39.html