Meaning of Kitabun in Chapter 41:3

Saad_Bekker

Peace Saad Bekker

Dhalika al-Kitabu la rayba fihi hudanl lil-muttaqina
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

If the dispute is about Dhalika "that" or "this" that would be understandable, I think Dhalika means "that"
however the connotation is that the Quran and the "Book" are part and parcel of one another, one being
close i.e., "this" (what you have with you i.e., the Quran) and "that" being the broader book which the
Quran is part of i.e., 43/4). Therefore "this" is a better syntactical fit for 2/2 IMHO. Arabic speakers may
have a better understanding than my own.

Allah knows best.

God bless you

peace

Thank you too Hawk,

But what you explained is exactly my problem

If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?
And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.

Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.

Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.

Saad_Bekker

In hebrew ketubim(written ketuvim) mean scriptures. I think it tied up with kitab on arabic...

...anyway, this is an old jewish song where Calf was pronounciated as Kelbi https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZN80LDku2A. It seems there is connection about "Vaw" pronounciated. It seems "Vaw" sometimes pronounced as "B" sometime as "W".

Farabi,

Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.

Farabi

Farabi,

Your contribution is fantastic and it seems to be loaded with solutions. But my knowledge is very limited regarding what you are talking about. Please be so kind and give a broader and clearer explanation as well as how it could be applied with reference to Chapter 22 of Quran.

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
So, In my understanding Kitab mean something written, and it was book. And 22 is talked about Moses scripture which is called alkitab. There is a lot of verse on the quran that saying whoever did not establish the torah law and the christiant are not applying their teaching they are in darkness and wicked. So on my opinion, "That" in that verse was saying about the bible.

Farabi

I cant edit my post.

Kitab derived from root KTB which mean writing. And there is another word for describing literacy which is QLM. QLM mean was pen, but there is idion 'ILM QLM which mean literacy, but activity to produce a paper is kitab.

If you want to write, Farabi writing a books. On quran arabic it would be, "Farabi kataba kutubu".
Here is another example

Farabi history is written.
"Farabi qishash maktubi"

Farabi is a writer
"Farabi alkatib"

There is no other word to describe writing activity except using KTB word.

hawk99

Thank you too Hawk,

But what you explained is exactly my problem

If it says "That Book" then the question is which book is being referred too?
And if in fact it says "This Book..." it can not refer to the Quran because all reasonable and realistic evidence points to the fact that the Verses of the Quran which were only revealed as needed over a 23 year period were not yet compiled as a book and the logical deduction would be to say that the Quran, which we have today, was not revealed by Allah, do not represent Mohammed's revelation from Allah and was in fact only written and compiled later to create the impression that Muslims also have a Book like the Christians have a Bible, and by doing so the writers and compilers did not realize how they gave there hidden agenda away.

Now, to us as Muslims this idea seems absurd but is it? However, this is not the debate and discussion now what I am very sincerely trying to focus on, and that is why I appreciate your contribution too, is what is the meaning of the word "kitabun" as used in the Quran, and more important, which book does Chapter 22 refer to.

Because no matter which way I move with this challenge, I find myself painted into a corner.

Peace Saad Bekker,

Good questions, let's approach this horse from another angle. Please read 13/39, 43/2-4, 85/21-22, 57/22
then re-read my previous post. Give license to Allah who is trying to make a point to you, look at words
like they have broader meanings. A myopic view of words and meanings in the Quran will only hinder
your understanding. The word book, this, that, must be taken in context not only in the verse but in the
Quran as a whole.

Kitaabun = book

KAF-TA-BA he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed,
drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law),
mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ,
revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

God bless

peace

Saad_Bekker

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
...

Dear Farabi,

Just before I read your further comments let me assure you first that I am not sarcastic if you look at all my contributions here so far you would find no sarcasm just sincerity and kindness and great appreciation for every little bit of help to get my problem solved. )

Saad_Bekker

Hi,
Well, I cant tell wheter you're beeing sarcastic or not ;D
So, In my understanding Kitab mean something written, and it was book. And 22 is talked about Moses scripture which is called alkitab. There is a lot of verse on the quran that saying whoever did not establish the torah law and the christiant are not applying their teaching they are in darkness and wicked. So on my opinion, "That" in that verse was saying about the bible.
...
I cant edit my post.

Kitab derived from root KTB which mean writing. And there is another word for describing literacy which is QLM. QLM mean was pen, but there is idion 'ILM QLM which mean literacy, but activity to produce a paper is kitab.

If you want to write, Farabi writing a books. On quran arabic it would be, "Farabi kataba kutubu".
Here is another example

Farabi history is written.
"Farabi qishash maktubi"

Farabi is a writer
"Farabi alkatib"

There is no other word to describe writing activity except using KTB word.

Farabi,
Thank you for your input yours really also makes sense. So how would you translate 22 into English?

Do you know Hebrew and Quran Arabic well? I am asking because right now I wish I had your knowledge. May Allah reward you greatly.

Saad_Bekker

Peace Saad Bekker,

Good questions, let's approach this horse from another angle. Please read 13/39, 43/2-4, 85/21-22, 57/22
then re-read my previous post. Give license to Allah who is trying to make a point to you, look at words
like they have broader meanings. A myopic view of words and meanings in the Quran will only hinder
your understanding. The word book, this, that, must be taken in context not only in the verse but in the
Quran as a whole.

Kitaabun = book

KAF-TA-BA he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed,
drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law),
mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ,
revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

God bless

peace

Aha! So if I understand you correctly as well as the Verse/s you referred me to, you are saying that the "That Book..." referred to in the Quran 22, is actually the "Mother Book" (1339) which is with Allah?"

So "Dhalika l-kitabu" in 22 could/should be translated as "The original record, the "Mother Book" which is with Allah, is the book in which there is no doubt, and which is the guidance... "

I hope I understood correctly but if not please adjust my attempt to translate 22

hawk99

Aha! So if I understand you correctly as well as the Verse/s you referred me to, you are saying that the "That Book..." referred to in the Quran 22, is actually the "Mother Book" (1339) which is with Allah?"

So "Dhalika l-kitabu" in 22 could/should be translated as "The original record, the "Mother Book" which is with Allah, is the book in which there is no doubt, and which is the guidance... "

I hope I understood correctly but if not please adjust my attempt to translate 22

Almost! IMHO You have divided/separated the Quran from the Umm-ul-Kitab, nope when you
are reading Quran you are reading part of the "Mother Book" see 43/2-4, and 2/4 retranslate.

God bless you

peace

Farabi

Farabi,
Thank you for your input yours really also makes sense. So how would you translate 22 into English?

Do you know Hebrew and Quran Arabic well? I am asking because right now I wish I had your knowledge. May Allah reward you greatly.

My personal translation was "That book has no doubt in it, guidance for those who fears(muttaqin)". CMIIW.

Farabi

I only know few hebrew and arabic. Both are simmiliar and had the same word transformation pattern.

Saad_Bekker

My personal translation was "That book has no doubt in it, guidance for those who fears(muttaqin)". CMIIW.

Good, thank you Farabi,

Now in your translation and according to your understanding which book does "That book..." refer to?

Saad_Bekker

Almost! IMHO You have divided/separated the Quran from the Umm-ul-Kitab, nope when you
are reading Quran you are reading part of the "Mother Book" see 43/2-4, and 2/4 retranslate.

God bless you

peace

Hawk,

I think this Website summarizes what your view point is?

http//sufiyya.blogspot.com/2010/02/umm-al-kitab-surat-al-raad-13-39.html

hawk99

Hawk,

I think this Website summarizes what your view point is?

http//sufiyya.blogspot.com/2010/02/umm-al-kitab-surat-al-raad-13-39.html

Wow! thanks, I have a lot of pleasant memories studying with those folks. Anyway, I hope you understand
the context and the broader context in regards to 2/2-4 please give your translation, there is no judgment
from me.

God bless you

peace

Mazhar

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Demonstrative%20Pronouns/01.%20Zalika/1.gif

It is a noun of indication, properly meaning This.

Singular; Masculine; it is used to refer, draw attention, indicate or introduce something or person to the addressee.
It is for the person being addressed, singular, second person; masculine.

Checking its recurrence in Qur'aan will reveal that its Laam refers to a past fact, or to a just mentioned fact, command, advice.

The second noun is also definite with definite article. Read about definite article, it will tell that it is prefixed to a thing which is right in front of you.

Here is that book/this is the book wherein you will find all the time you read it, that its contents are absolutely void of psychologically disconcerting suspicious, conjectural, whimsical, conflicting, un-certain, illusory, unsubstantiated, biased and opinionated matter.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0005.%20RAIB/1.gif This verbal noun does not mean "doubt".
It is the subject noun of the negation particle; a Verbal/Infinitive noun, in Arabic terminology . It is a noun signifying action and state only. It is the source from where the verbs are derived. Its past and present tense verbs are -. Infinitive Noun signifies the action indicated in the verb derived from it. The action that a verb denotes signifies change and alteration of states in time and space, physical or abstract, which was the intent or objective of doing that act. An action causes an effect to take existence; causes a new state to emerge different to that which existed before the execution of action.

The Root is " ". states, " -, Infinitive Noun "It occasioned in me disquiet, disturbance, or agitation of mind. This is the primary signification." At page 364 it states; " The primary signification is Disquiet, disturbance, or agitation of mind, and accidents or evil accidents of time that disturb or disquiet the heart and mind.

All the critical readers of the books may collectively catalogue all such elements in nonfiction books that might be considered as unpleasant and disquieting even by one reader; and thereafter peruse the Arabic text of Grand Qur'aan only to find that none is present therein. This renders it infinitely reliable and a pleasant read.

Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book

Farabi

Good, thank you Farabi,

Now in your translation and according to your understanding which book does "That book..." refer to?

Sorry The translation should be, "That writing had no doubt in it, guidance for those who feared". It could be refer to the bible and it could be refer to Alfatihah. I dont know. I personaly think it is refer to the bible.

Edit
Sorry Im blind about the word transformation. I cant tell wheter the "A-I-U" pattern was present tense or past tense. If it was present tense then it refer to the quran it self, if it was past tense then it refer to the bible.

Farabi

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0001.%20Pronouns%20and%20Prepositions/Demonstrative%20Pronouns/01.%20Zalika/1.gif

It is a noun of indication, properly meaning This.

Singular; Masculine; it is used to refer, draw attention, indicate or introduce something or person to the addressee.
It is for the person being addressed, singular, second person; masculine.

Checking its recurrence in Qur'aan will reveal that its Laam refers to a past fact, or to a just mentioned fact, command, advice.

The second noun is also definite with definite article. Read about definite article, it will tell that it is prefixed to a thing which is right in front of you.

Here is that book/this is the book wherein you will find all the time you read it, that its contents are absolutely void of psychologically disconcerting suspicious, conjectural, whimsical, conflicting, un-certain, illusory, unsubstantiated, biased and opinionated matter.

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0005.%20RAIB/1.gif This verbal noun does not mean "doubt".
It is the subject noun of the negation particle; a Verbal/Infinitive noun, in Arabic terminology . It is a noun signifying action and state only. It is the source from where the verbs are derived. Its past and present tense verbs are -. Infinitive Noun signifies the action indicated in the verb derived from it. The action that a verb denotes signifies change and alteration of states in time and space, physical or abstract, which was the intent or objective of doing that act. An action causes an effect to take existence; causes a new state to emerge different to that which existed before the execution of action.

The Root is " ". states, " -, Infinitive Noun "It occasioned in me disquiet, disturbance, or agitation of mind. This is the primary signification." At page 364 it states; " The primary signification is Disquiet, disturbance, or agitation of mind, and accidents or evil accidents of time that disturb or disquiet the heart and mind.

All the critical readers of the books may collectively catalogue all such elements in nonfiction books that might be considered as unpleasant and disquieting even by one reader; and thereafter peruse the Arabic text of Grand Qur'aan only to find that none is present therein. This renders it infinitely reliable and a pleasant read.

Introduction of Qur'aan The Infinitely Reliable Book

RYB mean doubt based on this verse. http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=23